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The Black Culture Thread |OT7| Luigi took our stare

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J

J10

Banned
Jest Chillin said:
I won't deny that he's boring but the diss was the hardest diss to be thrown at Em at the time and boring or not, Evidence was and is well respected. Dilated in general was well respected. Em was still very much eating off his underground rep and style at that time, which if he was being true to that image, means it was worthy of response.

Em wasn't in a making tracks for radio play lane yet. Dude was on Sway and King Tech's This or That and featured dudes like Sticky Fingaz and Xzibit on his tracks. He was still getting hype from his Rawkus track. He very much had one foot still in the Underground side of things for his benefit.


Edit: @ J10 I pretty much cover your points with the above. This was Marshall Mathers LP era Em we're talking about. He was not at the level of Nas or Jay in those examples. He was just starting to cement himself.
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"Starting to cement himself" is an understatement. SSLP and MMLP have done a combined 16 million units sold (no two Jay or Nas albums have done that). No matter how hard Eminem straddled that fence he was always gonna be pop. His lead singles were always super pop, up until I'm Not Afraid. He was always aware of his status and why he was as famous as he was, and he even took that into account when engaging in feuds.

And just be to clear, mainstream success is not a metric by which we should measure any kind of ability or worthiness, with respect to battling. Just saying there's a clear reason why some people get ignored when trying to feud musically.
 
J

J10

Banned
Oldschoolgamer said:
Cam'ron had one of the biggest waves of the 2000s and was getting money. lol. He was way more worthy than most of the rappers Jay threw subs at, especially with all of the personal disrespectful shit killa said.

If it's about lyrics, then Computers Putin got people remembering wrong. lol
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Battling is supposed to be about who is the better rapper, not a popularity contest. Neither Cam nor 50 are as good at rapping as Jay, in any of their respective primes. That was my point. Cam got dissed exactly because he was popping at the time, not because he was worthy. If he wasn't, Jay wouldn't have said anything. At that level of popularity,the motivations are different.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
J10 said:
"Starting to cement himself" is an understatement. SSLP and MMLP have done a combined 16 million units sold (no two Jay or Nas albums have done that). No matter how hard Eminem straddled that fence he was always gonna be pop. His lead singles were always super pop, up until I'm Not Afraid. He was always aware of his status and why he was as famous as he was, and he even took that into account when engaging in feuds.

And just be to clear, mainstream success is not a metric by which we should measure any kind of ability or worthiness, with respect to battling. Just saying there's a clear reason why some people get ignored when trying to feud musically.
Click to expand...

I was never talking about records sold when I said cement himself. I'm talking about reputation earned. Plenty of people have a hit album or two but it's constant and consistent performance that garners that respect from the Hip Hop community at large, and that's the only place these battles even matter.

And even from the point that one reaches a Jay or Nas respect level.. dudes are consistent with where they direct their attention. Em ignores Evidence but takes shots at ICP and Canibus and puts on for Xzibit and Sticky? There's no consistency in that.
 
O

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
J10 said:
Battling is supposed to be about who is the better rapper, not a popularity contest. Neither Cam nor 50 are as good at rapping as Jay, in any of their respective primes. That was my point. Cam got dissed exactly because he was popping at the time, not because he was worthy. If he wasn't, Jay wouldn't have said anything. At that level of popularity,the motivations are different.
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So, it is about lyrics then, which is where I disagree with you. Cam has always been gifted rapping, otherwise he never would have gotten put on like Ma$e did, coming out of Children of the Corn.

Cam could probably outrap Jigga when Jay was doing his best Busta Rhymes impersonations.
 
D

Do Better

Member
I don't understand people who claim to be attracted to women or men of only one race and then bitch about their lack of success in dating.
 
J

J10

Banned
There is no reputation at stake with battling Evidence. Nobody knows who that is. And to not factor in commercial success into that equation makes no sense. That's part of what makes their reputations.

ICP is local to Eminem and has a large vocal following. ICP has actually been in the news. They were later reduced to a meme. Where are the Dilated Peoples memes? More people know this girl's face
TJSWBOd.jpg
than Evidence's.

Did Evidence even say anything especially cutting on that record? Like OMG Eminem has GOT to respond to this!

Canibus did an entire album about Eminem. Eminem responded with a single song. Seems proportionate when reputation and relevancy is factored in - Canibus wasn't popular, but he did have that reputation for battling until he started going off on that Stan Lives bullshit. And even then he didn't even diss Canibus especially bad, that record was more like him daring Canibus to return to form.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
J10 said:
There is no reputation at stake with battling Evidence. Nobody knows who that is. And to not factor in commercial success into that equation makes no sense. That's part of what makes their reputations.

ICP is local to Eminem and has a large vocal following. ICP has actually been in the news. They were later reduced to a meme. Where are the Dilated Peoples memes? More people know this girl's face
TJSWBOd.jpg
than Evidence's.

Did Evidence even say anything especially cutting on that record? Like OMG Eminem has GOT to respond to this!

Canibus did an entire album about Eminem. Eminem responded with a single song. Seems proportionate when reputation and relevancy is factored in - Canibus wasn't popular, but he did have that reputation for battling until he started going off on that Stan Lives bullshit. And even then he didn't even diss Canibus especially bad, that record was more like him daring Canibus to return to form.
Click to expand...

Now you're going back to commercial success and mainstream visibility when I've already addressed that stuff. Em was not at a point in his career where he was respected enough to ignore it nor was he in a lane where he was making music purely for the purposes of radio play and record sales. One Pop single per record on his first 3 records does not mean he was Pop. He wasn't at that point in his career.

ICP's following at that time was a fraction of what it is now. They had just started to blow but like Def Jux and Rhymesayers their visibility was relatively small in the grand scale of things. Canibus didn't make that joke of an album until after Em had been firing shots at him. Bus was firmly underground at the time. These were not big visible targets like Everlast and Limp Bizkit. They were easy targets just the same, but not big ones.

And as I said before, that Evidence track firmly and accurately calls Em's credibility into question. It contradicted Em's claims to be from Detroit (at that time, Em never spoke about living in the suburbs of Detroit) as well as his work as a Producer. Plenty of diss tracks have been made for lesser insults (even perceived insults). The whole reason Em went after Limp Bizkit was because DJ Lethal went on TRL and said, "I wouldn't mess with Everlast if I was Em." That's not an insult anywhere in the same caliber.

No matter how you look at it, the logic of Em being "too big" or Dilated being "too small" to respond to doesn't mesh. Em didn't want to start a track for track battle with a dude who could actually hold his own AND had the relationships to dig up the truth.

If you look at Em's history of beefs, he's almost never gone at anyone who could go at him heads up unless they crossed a line like speaking on his daughter. He stayed out of the Royce/D12 stuff. Tried to stay out of the 50 and Ja stuff too. And when he talks about his drugged out days he says he was "crazy" for thinking about going after Wayne, Kanye, or anyone who was popular at the time because he thinks they were better than he was when he was at that point in his life.
 
K

Kreed

Member
JustAnotherMike said:
Was the Chappelle bit the knock out punch for Ja or just the start of a combo he couldn't get out of?

It's gotta be tough to be reduced to a punchline like that.
Click to expand...

50 dropped Get Rich or Die Trying a year before Chappelle took his shot, so Chappelle was just riding a wave at that point (similar to Usher "ending" Sisqo's career). But even then Ja Rule was going to fall off sooner or later. Besides Irv/Ja going to jail right as they were getting destroyed by 50, Em, and Busta, people were getting sick of Ja Rule's formula. 50 just sped it up with Wanksta/Ja's fans betraying him on the music countdown shows. This is also why 50 has never been able to destroy another rappers' career since he hasn't been able to luck out like that against any other rapper he had beef with.
 
D

Do Better

Member
Kreed said:
50 dropped Get Rich or Die Trying a year before Chappelle took his shot, so Chappelle was just riding a wave at that point (similar to Usher "ending" Sisqo's career). But even then Ja Rule was going to fall off sooner or later. Besides Irv/Ja going to jail right as they were getting destroyed by 50, Em, and Busta, people were getting sick of Ja Rule's formula. 50 just sped it up with Wanksta/Ja's fans betraying him on the music countdown shows. This is also why 50 has never been able to destroy another rappers' career since he hasn't been able to luck out like that against any other rapper he had beef with.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think Murder Inc.'s success would have ended sooner if not for Ashanti blowing up.
 
O

Onemic

Member
J10 said:
"Starting to cement himself" is an understatement. SSLP and MMLP have done a combined 16 million units sold (no two Jay or Nas albums have done that). No matter how hard Eminem straddled that fence he was always gonna be pop. His lead singles were always super pop, up until I'm Not Afraid. He was always aware of his status and why he was as famous as he was, and he even took that into account when engaging in feuds.

And just be to clear, mainstream success is not a metric by which we should measure any kind of ability or worthiness, with respect to battling. Just saying there's a clear reason why some people get ignored when trying to feud musically.
Click to expand...

Im not afraid and the singles after it were all pop as fuck. In fact I'd say aside from Rap God, they were even poppier than his previous singles.
 
J

JustAnotherMike

Member
Slayven said:
lol you wrong
Click to expand...

Storm Chamber said:
wow lmao
Click to expand...

For the record this is the first time I've seen this picture. I suspect now that I just made fun of someone with some sort of issue.

Kreed said:
50 dropped Get Rich or Die Trying a year before Chappelle took his shot, so Chappelle was just riding a wave at that point (similar to Usher "ending" Sisqo's career). But even then Ja Rule was going to fall off sooner or later. Besides Irv/Ja going to jail right as they were getting destroyed by 50, Em, and Busta, people were getting sick of Ja Rule's formula. 50 just sped it up with Wanksta/Ja's fans betraying him on the music countdown shows. This is also why 50 has never been able to destroy another rappers' career since he hasn't been able to luck out like that against any other rapper he had beef with.
Click to expand...

I see. Now that you lay it out I remember all those events, I missed that Chappelle special when it first aired, so I got twisted on the dates.
 
K

KumaJG

Member
Kreed said:
50 dropped Get Rich or Die Trying a year before Chappelle took his shot, so Chappelle was just riding a wave at that point (similar to Usher "ending" Sisqo's career). But even then Ja Rule was going to fall off sooner or later. Besides Irv/Ja going to jail right as they were getting destroyed by 50, Em, and Busta, people were getting sick of Ja Rule's formula. 50 just sped it up with Wanksta/Ja's fans betraying him on the music countdown shows. This is also why 50 has never been able to destroy another rappers' career since he hasn't been able to luck out like that against any other rapper he had beef with.
Click to expand...

People sick of Ja yet we have Drake.
 
J

J10

Banned
We're going in circles, so whatever.

I'm Not Afraid struck me as a more serious record with a bit of substance and a poppy hook, where as My Name Is, Real Slim Shady, Without Me, Just Lose it, We Made You, My Band, were all goofy as shit and weren't really saying anything substantive. I'm Not Afraid sounded more like a secondary single like Way I Am or Guilty Conscience or Cleaning Out My Closet.
 
B

Boombloxer

Member
J10 said:
We're going in circles, so whatever.

I'm Not Afraid struck me as a more serious record with a bit of substance and a poppy hook, where as My Name Is, Real Slim Shady, Without Me, Just Lose it, We Made You, My Band, were all goofy as shit and weren't really saying anything substantive. I'm Not Afraid sounded more like a secondary single like Way I Am or Guilty Conscience or Cleaning Out My Closet.
Click to expand...

Gotta agree here.

Ja's fall took place over multiple albums, besides 50, everyone from Shady/Aftermath/Interscope had one "Shit on him" track, Obie, Lloyd, D12, Em, etc.

Then the 50/D-Block shit started and well, yea.
 
K

KumaJG

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
even then, she gave it a 100% in every damn scene she was in

even scenes she wasn't in
Click to expand...

All the Greeks lost their swagger. No chest or shield beating. No fist pump or yelling. What happened to the shining abs? I'm sitting here looking like Anthony Anderson in better shape than the whole cast.
 
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