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[commedieu]

Ok, I will hear out your suggestion to how Israel can end the blockade peacefully. I agree Israel should garner support of the international community, but what actual steps could Israel immediately take to end the blockade in a way that ensures the safety of its own people?

This problem isn't going to be solved immediately as it took a while to develop. Beginning to work with countries that recognize Palestine would be a step in the direction to bring both sides to the table for negotiations. That would be a start, immediately. But down the road? I imagine Reparations would be paid to invest in housing/land return/education and commerce to aid the quality of life of people. They can use the 4 billion from the United States yearly for this, and the international community can profit from rebuilding contracts instead of buying our broken planes.

Both would have to compromise, so I imagine Israel would want an agreement for no war crimes charges or something under the table like that.

safety has to be built on trust. And that is actually a both sides issue.

How can they trust Israel after what they've done? That's where negotiations would have to make it so both sides can live without fear of bulldozers, the latest most advanced military equipment known to man, or rocks.

But, the prime minister and various politicians have already stated their view on the matter. So, there will never be any effort to work with Palestine for peace. Step one would be attempting. In a fantasy world.

I mean I think we all know why this will never happen. But hey its a discussion forum!

Edit: dammit. The technicality wars have begun. Oh well.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Also Cheesecakebobby and Hix.

Lumping together anyone who challenges the black and white, good versus evil narrative huh, and failing to provide any refutations? Nice. But this is an Israel thread, so anything goesl

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Lumping together anyone who challenges the black and white, good versus evil narrative huh, and failing to provide any refutations? Nice. But this is an Israel thread, so anything goesl

Do you think that "the black and white, good versus evil narrative" was mean't to be challenge as well about apartheid south africa ?

I mean, Israel did try to give them the atomic bomb.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

This problem isn't going to be solved immediately as it took a while to develop. Beginning to work with countries that recognize Palestine would be a step in the direction to bring both sides to the table for negotiations. That would be a start, immediately. But down the road? I imagine Reparations would be paid to invest in housing/land return/education and commerce to aid the quality of life of people. They can use the 4 billion from the United States yearly for this, and the international community can profit from rebuilding contracts instead of buying our broken planes.

Both would have to compromise, so I imagine Israel would want an agreement for no war crimes charges or something under the table like that.

safety has to be built on trust. And that is actually a both sides issue.

How can they trust Israel after what they've done? That's where negotiations would have to make it so both sides can live without fear of bulldozers, the latest most advanced military equipment known to man, or rocks.

But, the prime minister and various politicians have already stated their view on the matter. So, there will never be any effort to work with Palestine for peace. Step one would be attempting. In a fantasy world.

I mean I think we all know why this will never happen. But hey its a discussion forum!

I don't disagree with most of what you say. Of course Israel should be open to talking to the international community - but I don't see how that bridges the huge gap caused by Hamas's fixation on destroying Israel. They execute Palestinians in the street because they are accused of supporting negotiation. It is part of their entire creed to not give an inch of the holy land to the Jews. I just don't see how strengthening ties with say, Jordan is going to change that.

Safety is built on trust - that's a good line. But of course, it cuts both ways. Israelis will take a hell of a lot of convincing that those who were recently calling for them to be pushed into the sea now want to live harmoniously alongside each other.

Your post is thoughtful and free of the inflammatory remarks that plague these discussions, so thanks for your response. I just can't bring myself to be an idealist when I see the hatred and lack of trust, from both sides, that perpetuates this pointless mess.

 

[Jeb]

This thread is disturbing.

Some people here are more concerned deflecting the blame off Isreal than showing empathy for their fellow man.

It's like they are more sensitive to what Isreal is called than people's suffering.

 

[Sony]

I don't disagree with most of what you say. Of course Israel should be open to talking to the international community - but I don't see how that bridges the huge gap caused by Hamas's fixation on destroying Israel. They execute Palestinians in the street because they are accused of supporting negotiation. It is part of their entire creed to not give an inch of the holy land to the Jews. I just don't see how strengthening ties with say, Jordan is going to change that.

Safety is built on trust - that's a good line. But of course, it cuts both ways. Israelis will take a hell of a lot of convincing that those who were recently calling for them to be pushed into the sea now want to live harmoniously alongside each other.

Your post is thoughtful and free of the inflammatory remarks that plague these discussions, so thanks for your response. I just can't bring myself to be an idealist when I see the hatred and lack of trust, from both sides, that perpetuates this pointless mess.

So you're telling me that the Palestinians are opressed by Hamas aswel as Irael? Doesn't that make the situation even more disturbing? Nothing Israel has done gives me the impression that they're targetting Hamas only, every time there is some conflict with Hamas, the Palestinians are the ones suffering.

 

[numble]

It isn't whataboutism to point out the causes of the blockade, and in regards to Egypt, regardless of what you consider constituting a continuance of the blockade, I was merely musing how it is only ever Israelis who automatically get the Nazi comparison around here. I also do not believe that the overall current blockade in itself is an evil, so I have no need to deflect from it. It is the horrific yet natural consequence of a shitty situation which actors on both sides are responsible for. There is plenty to criticise, but discussions of the blockade should not boil down to the knee-jerk 'Israel are Nazis'/ 'This is genocide' response.

Anyway, I have little more to say than to echo the poster above who is fed up with the same arguments from both sides and a failure of those invested in one side or the other to recognise the genuine grievances of the other.

Why do you think Egypt should be comparable to the Nazis in this situation? Closing a border is not the equivalent of a blockade. South Korea closes its border to North Korea. It is not maintaining a blockade of North Korea. A blockade would mean South Korea preventing ships and planes from reaching North Korea, which the international community would condemn despite North Korea's fixation on destroying South Korea.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Lumping together anyone who challenges the black and white, good versus evil narrative huh, and failing to provide any refutations? Nice. But this is an Israel thread, so anything goesl

You've been challenged many times on this subject and no matter how many well thought out arguments you confront refuse to accept certain facts regarding the power dynamic at play here. Sometimes it feels like you think that people criticizing Israel is surmount to criticizing you.

 

[commedieu]

I don't disagree with most of what you say. Of course Israel should be open to talking to the international community - but I don't see how that bridges the huge gap caused by Hamas's fixation on destroying Israel. They execute Palestinians in the street because they are accused of supporting negotiation. It is part of their entire creed to not give an inch of the holy land to the Jews. I just don't see how strengthening ties with say, Jordan is going to change that.

Safety is built on trust - that's a good line. But of course, it cuts both ways. Israelis will take a hell of a lot of convincing that those who were recently calling for them to be pushed into the sea now want to live harmoniously alongside each other.

Your post is thoughtful and free of the inflammatory remarks that plague these discussions, so thanks for your response. I just can't bring myself to be an idealist when I see the hatred and lack of trust, from both sides, that perpetuates this pointless mess.

Yes the situation is frustrating.

 

[JordanN]

This thread is disturbing.

Some people here are more concerned deflecting the blame off Isreal than showing empathy for their fellow man.

It's like they are more sensitive to what Isreal is called than people's suffering.

Or maybe people can stop pushing the agenda that Israel existence is somehow linked to evil?

I don't really bother with these threads because their purpose always boils down to the same stuff: demonize Israel. But what gets alarming is when the comments become more unhinged.

Genocide, apartheid and now the OP literally supporting terror attacks. Everything about it just reads as unhealthy.

 

[commedieu]

Or maybe people can stop pushing the agenda that Israel existence is somehow linked to evil?

I don't really bother with these threads because their purpose always boils down to the same stuff: demonize Israel. But what gets alarming is when the comments become more unhinged.

Genocide, apartheid and now the OP literally advocating terror attacks.

Op said in context to the op, that he'd be fighting back if he was stuck in a blockade. That isn't literally advocating terrorist attacks.

Do you get this outraged when the UN and human rights groups condemn Israel around the clock too? Or is it OK because they just say gross human rights violations and apartheid like conditons?

Or just, other folks..


http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/1.671538

Unhealthy is ignoring a thread about a blockade, and accusing someone of advocating terrorism. That gets palestin..err...people killed.

 

[JordanN]

Op said in context to the op, that he'd be fighting back if he was stuck in a blockade. That isn't literally advocating terrorist attacks.

Do you get this outraged when the UN and human rights groups condemn Israel around the clock too? Or is it OK because they just say gross human rights violations and apartheid like conditons?

Fighting back against what? The country that repelled 3 large scale invasions from its neighbors is going to capitulate to a rocket? And these attacks are never meant against military, they only target where Israelis live. So it is terrorism.

This is the kind of judgement and irrationality I speak of when I say Israelis are just being demonized.

 

[commedieu]

Fighting back against what? The country that repelled 3 large scale invasions from its neighbors is going to capitulate to a rocket? And these attacks are never meant against military, they only target where Israelis live. So it is terrorism.

You should read the quotes in the op. As that is what they would be fighting back against.

Op isn't about the 3 day war. It's about the illegal blockade that Israel is condemned over and over again for human right violations as well as its illegality.

You can keep saying Israel is being demonized, but logic dictates Israel is being condemned for their illegal actions and human rights violations as stated by the UN and various human rights groups. Everyone doesn't have it in for israel, facts are facts. If you take it as Israel being demonized, you seem to be an expert on health, is that healthy?


If the op just had the word Israel. And everyone started disparaging them for no reason you might have a point, but things said in this thread have all been things Israel has or is currently being condemned for. Minus the genocide of course, but there is a debate around genocide. And I'll just say once you get into debating whether or not something is genocide, in combination with human rights violations and condemnations, it's a bad look. Just to say the least.

Wouldn't quite call that irrational. It would be if there was no human rights violations. But there seem to be a lot of them.

 

[DrFurbs]

Forgive me if I'm not fully informed but hasnt Palestine had at least a dozen chances for a lasting prosperous peace and decided to bomb Israel instead?

What are the options on the table now for peace?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Forgive me if I'm not fully informed but hasnt Palestine had at least a dozen chances for a lasting prosperous peace and decided to bomb Israel instead?

What are the options on the table now for peace?

This is the narrative Israel is building, but they constantly violate all the terms that was agreed upon like stopping illegals settlements, therefore the lack of trust from the Palestinian-side in any peace deals.

The common thing that Palestinians are asking is getting back the 67's borders with Jerusalem as capital and the Right of Return for the Palestinians who were forced to exile by the establishment of the zionist state in 1948.
Israel will never give that, they don't have any reason to do so. They rather invade Gaza every 5 years when they are too turbulent. Might is right.

 

[SKINNER!]

Forgive me if I'm not fully informed but hasnt Israel had at least a dozen chances for a lasting prosperous peace and decided to continously bomb Gaza and build illegal settlements in the West Bank instead?

What are the options on the table now for peace?

fixed.

 

[Jeb]

Or maybe people can stop pushing the agenda that Israel existence is somehow linked to evil?

I don't really bother with these threads because their purpose always boils down to the same stuff: demonize Israel. But what gets alarming is when the comments become more unhinged.

Genocide, apartheid and now the OP literally supporting terror attacks. Everything about it just reads as unhealthy.

Exactly my point.

The fact that you dismiss people's suffering as anti Isreali propaganda is very disturbing.

Edit:also the fact that "demonizing Isreal" is more of a concern to you than the state of the Gazan people.

 

[StayDead]

My step brother is Israeli and the good thing I've learnt from him is people his age are apparently a lot more liberal than his parents generation. They don't really agree with what the government is doing or the blockade; the only strange this is he doesn't believe that the Palestinian people are trapped in Gaza, he says to me that they can leave whenever they want and come to Israel which doesn't seem very true based on evidence. The issue is the people in the Israeli government benefit too much from war for them to actively seek peace.

I also know someone from Gaza (he plays RO2 online sometimes) and he said even though his power cuts out all day every day due to the damage caused by the wars he said he doesn't hate the people of Israel and most of the non radicalised people in Palestine feel the same way. They understand that the problem is with the Israeli government for the most part.

Hamas are happy to just radicalise people and get them to throw missiles/rockets over the border, because at the end of the day it's not them getting hurt. They're just taking advantage of a war torn nation filled with young, especially men who've seen their family killed in retaliatory attacks against them. Their fragile minds can't process the fact that a lot of the time those attacks are caused in such ferocity due to the attacks, but I guess what are they supposed to do? Sit there and be imprisoned just for being born in Gaza? The whole situation just sucks out there. Hopefully when the older generations die off and the younger generations take power the situation will improve. While the Israeli government is filled with people like Netenyahu and his wife, nothing is going to change sadly.

 

[yarden24]

My step brother is Israeli and the good thing I've learnt from him is people his age are apparently a lot more liberal than his parents generation.

Israel is going more and more to the right, the younger generations especially are very militant, much more then the generations before them.
if you wish I can look up some polls.

 

[TestOfTide]

One of Israel's biggest supporters is about to get elected......future looks bright.

Can I request that we make a very clear distinction between Israel as a whole and the atrocious leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu?

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of people in Israel with sickening opinions about Palestinians and Arabs, but there were also a lot of people who wanted the more moderate candidate that recently ran against Netanyahu.

And it was a little more than 2 decades ago that Yizthak Rabin was actually pushing for peace. It wasn't a perfect deal but if he had not been assassinated by that far right asshole Yigal Amir then we might have actually achieved peace between Israel and Palestine.

 

[uncelestial]

Just one reason why (besides the fact that CA is 100% likely to go blue anyway) I'm voting for one of the socialist party's candidates for president:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/09/08/israel-friendship-leadership-strength/

Our unwavering support for Israel is indefensible.

Can I request that we make a very clear distinction between Israel as a whole and the atrocious leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu?

No. This has been going on for ten fucking years.

 

[Koyuga]

Just one reason why (besides the fact that CA is 100% likely to go blue anyway) I'm voting for one of the socialist party's candidates for president:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/09/08/israel-friendship-leadership-strength/

Our unwavering support for Israel is indefensible.



No. This has been going on for ten fucking years.

It's sad that they're such an important ally to the US so we can never really withdraw support and funding for them to discourage their humanitarian atrocities.

 

[SKINNER!]

No. This has been going on for ten fucking years.

That's a bit of an understatement considering the nakba took place back in 1948.

 

[TestOfTide]

Just one reason why (besides the fact that CA is 100% likely to go blue anyway) I'm voting for one of the socialist party's candidates for president:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/09/08/israel-friendship-leadership-strength/

Our unwavering support for Israel is indefensible.

No. This has been going on for ten fucking years.

First off notice how that link at no point talks about Netanyahu. Support for Israel doesn't necessarily mean we approve of Netanyahu. And I can guarantee you that at this point the Democrats are getting pretty sick of Netanyahu spitting in our face.

Second, it would be political suicide for either party to NOT say they support Israel 100%. You can't change jack shit if you don't get elected.

Third, one of Hillary's accomplishments as Secretary of State was getting a ceasefire from Israel. Obviously we still have a ways to go, but the fact that Hillary could get Netanyahu to stop something means she has even a slight chance of pushing Israel to be more moderate.

Do I hate what Israel keeps doing and hate the fact that the US still supports Israel? Absolutely, but we won't get jack shit accomplished by pissing off the AIPAC too much. It will require very subtle pushes from the US that let Netanyahu know that we do in fact have limits.

 

[SKINNER!]

Obviously we still have a ways to go, but the fact that Hillary could get Netanyahu to stop something means she has even a slight chance of pushing Israel to be more moderate.

Interesting as the exact same thing was said about Obama when he became president back in 2008. That he could get Israel to be more moderate and stop settlements and not treat innocent Palestinians like shit. I'm not saying a Republican president can do any better but you obviously must understand that considering the historic relationship between the two nations and - regardless of whether a Republican or Democrat is president - nothing dramatic is going to change. To many, this "unwavering support" is just "Same old same old". Yeah, the US will condemn illegal settlement expansions but they've been doing that for a very long time and there's nothing being done to stop it. Thinking that Hillary will do something drastic about it when she's in office is nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[MisterFalcon]

That's a bit of an understatement considering the nakba took place back in 1948.

You mean when all the Arab nations tried to destroy Israel and failed ? And somehow this should have had zero consequences for the losing side ?

 

[TestOfTide]

Interesting as the exact same thing was said about Obama when he became president back in 2008. That he could get Israel to be more moderate and stop settlements and not treat innocent Palestinians like shit. I'm not saying a Republican president can do any better but you obviously must understand that considering the historic relationship between the two nations and - regardless of whether a Republican or Democrat is president - nothing dramatic is going to change. To many, this "unwavering support" is just "Same old same old". Yeah, the US will condemn illegal settlement expansions but they've been doing that for a very long time and there's nothing being done to stop it. Thinking that Hillary will do something drastic about it when she's in office is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Obama failed in that regard, yes, but let's not forget that Bill Clinton got the Oslo Accords passed. You think that just because one Democratic POTUS couldn't get an agreement from Israel means that no Democratic POTUS can?

Also, I specially said that I don't expect anything drastic from Hillary Clinton, but that doesn't mean I expect nothing.

That's a bit of an understatement considering the nakba took place back in 1948.

So what about the Oslo Accords of the 90s? Didn't recognize Palestine as a nation, but it was a step in the right direction. All we need for a start is to push things back in that direction in subtle ways.

 

[Abstrusity]

It's this sort of thing that feeds into actual anti-semitism. Why doesn't the US have more power over our relationship with Israel? Or, if we do, why aren't we doing more to stymie this sort of thing? Legitimate question, I want to know more.

 

[TestOfTide]

It's this sort of thing that feeds into actual anti-semitism. Why doesn't the US have more power over our relationship with Israel? Or, if we do, why aren't we doing more to stymie this sort of thing? Legitimate question, I want to know more.

It feeds antisemitism for those that can't separate Jewish People, Israeli People, and the far right Leadership in Israel.

And it falls apart as soon as you remember that Netanyahu supports Donald Trump.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...s/netanyahu-trump-clinton-meetings/index.html

 

[aeolist]

It's this sort of thing that feeds into actual anti-semitism. Why doesn't the US have more power over our relationship with Israel? Or, if we do, why aren't we doing more to stymie this sort of thing? Legitimate question, I want to know more.

it's this kind of asinine statement that belittles real anti-semitism

condemning the far-right governments of israel for their revolting policies and war crimes isn't the same thing as hating jews

 

[platocplx]

Can anyone explain to me how Israel was even just handed to jewish people at that time Its all super crazy to me even reading about it its baffling how this all happened in the begining and im not trying to diminish the atrocities that happened to jewish people i just dont understand how a whole country was handed to refugees i dont think we will ever see anything like this ever again.

 

[Abstrusity]

It feeds antisemitism for those that can't separate Jewish People, Israeli People, and the far right Leadership in Israel.

Yeah, I have very little faith in humanity -- those who are uneducated, closed minded, or otherwise don't care about this whole situation hear things like this and apply it wholesale to an entire people. Then you have actual anti-semites twisting events and words.

People who don't know and don't care enough to learn why it's wrong tend to pick up on that sort of thing.

it's this kind of asinine statement that belittles real anti-semitism

condemning the far-right governments of israel for their revolting policies and war crimes isn't the same thing as hating jews

Woah, hold on now, that's not what I'm saying. It's the EVENTS that NEED to be condemned that feed into it, not the condemnation itself.

 

[aeolist]

Yeah, I have very little faith in humanity -- those who are uneducated, closed minded, or otherwise don't care about this whole situation hear things like this and apply it wholesale to an entire people. Then you have actual anti-semites twisting events and words.

People who don't know and don't care enough to learn why it's wrong tend to pick up on that sort of thing.



Woah, hold on now, that's not what I'm saying. It's the EVENTS that NEED to be condemned that feed into it, not the condemnation itself.

ah, yeah that's true. israel is certainly breeding hatred of jews with their actions.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

it's this kind of asinine statement that belittles real anti-semitism

condemning the far-right governments of israel for their revolting policies and war crimes isn't the same thing as hating jews

I think you've misunderstood him. I read that as saying something like: Israel's morally unacceptable crimes against the people of Gaza give Israel a terrible image, something which fosters antisemitism when the intellectually lazy blur the line between the Israeli state and the Jewish people; with the implicit conclusion that antisemitic sentiment might be reduced if Israel did otherwise.

EDIT: Way too slow!

 

[TestOfTide]

it's this kind of asinine statement that belittles real anti-semitism

condemning the far-right governments of israel for their revolting policies and war crimes isn't the same thing as hating jews

To be fair, he isn't saying that he agrees with the antisemitism. And he is right in that even among the Trump supporting Alt-Right there is this out of place (considering their opinions on the Middle East) hatred of Israel.

And as you see in this thread, he agrees that it's stupid because it lumps together 3 distinctive groups: Jewish People, Israeli People, and the far right leadership of Israel.

Can anyone explain to me how Israel was even just handed to jewish people at that time Its all super crazy to me even reading about it its baffling how this all happened in the begining and im not trying to diminish the atrocities that happened to jewish people i just dont understand how a whole country was handed to refugees i dont think we will ever see anything like this ever again.

If I get this wrong someone should correct me, but basically:

- Palestine had been territory owned by the British since the late 19th century.

- Everyone knew that antisemitism was a huge factor in the rise of European fascism in the 30s.

- Western Society had this ridiculous idea in 1948 that if the British just gave Palestine to Jewish people that it would somehow solve the antisemitism in Europe.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You mean when all the Arab nations tried to destroy Israel and failed ? And somehow this should have had zero consequences for the losing side ?

Israel didn't existed at the time. It's the declaration of the colonial state that triggered regional reaction.

We all tend to forget when zionist were actually using terrorist methods to establish its colonial state.
The same group who is now considered funding father of the zionist state were condemned as terrorist by the UN and USA.
The irony.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Can anyone explain to me how Israel was even just handed to jewish people at that time Its all super crazy to me even reading about it its baffling how this all happened in the begining and im not trying to diminish the atrocities that happened to jewish people i just dont understand how a whole country was handed to refugees i dont think we will ever see anything like this ever again.

The zionist movement worked with the British, and in 1917, the British government promise that he will give Palestine to the zionist movement.

The same british government promised the same thing to arabs nationalist who had defeated the Ottoman Empire with the help of the British. They were therefore stucked in their own contradictory promises and that led to the jewish revolt against the British that ended by the establishement of the zionist state and the forced exil of the Palestinian people.

There is a great movie about those events that was aired by the BBC some years ago:

 

[Abstrusity]

I think you've misunderstood him. I read that as saying something like: Israel's morally unacceptable crimes against the people of Gaza give Israel a terrible image, something which fosters antisemitism when the intellectually lazy blur the line between the Israeli state and the Jewish people; with the implicit conclusion that antisemitic sentiment might be reduced if Israel did otherwise.

EDIT: Way too slow!

Pretty much, yeah. And where I realize it's kind of...off, to pin the blame on Israel here, Israel's GOVERNMENT IS the one with the power in the relationship between Palestine (or what's left of it), and Israel proper. I could draw direct parallels between systemic racism in the US and systemic oppression in Israel. Like it or not, whites in the US hold the keys to the gates of real, long lasting change. Nothing can be fixed without that understanding and the willingness to fix it.

I don't know if it's a bias I'm seeing here -- where we only ever really hear about the BAD things Israel is doing, rather than any steps it's taking to fix the presented issues -- and it's naive to believe that all antisemitic garbage would disappear should Israel change its hard line stance.

Keep in mind though, that I'm talking about antisemitic ideation forming in leftist circles, as the sentiment in alt-right circles is of the Hitler-worshipping, "muh zionist takeover" fear mongering and actual nazism variety. Any negative effect for people other than the alt-right only gives the alt-right stepping stones with which to peddle their garbage.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

This is so fucked up. Israel is monstrous. Thanks religion.

You mean when all the Arab nations tried to destroy Israel and failed ? And somehow this should have had zero consequences for the losing side ?

And so the cycle continues. Idiots.

 

[CyclopsRock]

- Western Society had this ridiculous idea in 1948 that if the British just gave Palestine to Jewish people that it would somehow solve the antisemitism in Europe.

It wasn't really meant to solve anti-semitism in Europe, it was meant to make it so that it didn't matter if Europe was anti-semitic. But that's really only part of it; The Zionist Jews of the 40's saw the "Palestinian Mandate" area as their homeland, in just the same way the Palestinians do.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Pretty much, yeah. And where I realize it's kind of...off, to pin the blame on Israel here, Israel IS the one with the power in the relationship between Palestine (or what's left of it), and Israel proper. I could draw direct parallels between systemic racism in the US and systemic oppression in Israel. Like it or not, whites in the US hold the keys to the gates of real, long lasting change. Nothing can be fixed without that understanding and the willingness to fix it.

I don't know if it's a bias I'm seeing here -- where we only ever really hear about the BAD things Israel is doing, rather than any steps it's taking to fix the presented issues -- and it's naive to believe that all antisemitic garbage would disappear should Israel change its hard line stance.

In the Western world, anti semitism have deep historical and theological roots, but in the arab world, it's 100 % fueled by Israel policies.

So yes, without Israel's actions antisemitism in the West would still exist but not in the arab world. The jewish people was an integral part of the islamic/arab civilization.

 

[TestOfTide]

Pretty much, yeah. And where I realize it's kind of...off, to pin the blame on Israel here, Israel's GOVERNMENT IS the one with the power in the relationship between Palestine (or what's left of it), and Israel proper. I could draw direct parallels between systemic racism in the US and systemic oppression in Israel. Like it or not, whites in the US hold the keys to the gates of real, long lasting change. Nothing can be fixed without that understanding and the willingness to fix it.

I don't know if it's a bias I'm seeing here -- where we only ever really hear about the BAD things Israel is doing, rather than any steps it's taking to fix the presented issues -- and it's naive to believe that all antisemitic garbage would disappear should Israel change its hard line stance.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that people are overlooking any good Israel does these days, because with the regards to Palestine, the far right Israeli leadership is clearly being a bunch of assholes.

But I will say that even in this thread there are some people that forget that in the 90s, Bill Clinton, Yizthak Rabin, and Yassir Arafat WERE actually pushing for peace between Israel and Palestine.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

This is so fucked up. Israel is monstrous. Thanks religion.



And so the cycle continues. Idiots.

Religion have little to do with it originally, the zionists funders were mainly secular and the vast majority of jewish religious authority were antizionist in eastern europe aswell as in the arab world.

Golda Meir is famous for having said "God don't exist but he gaved us the land".

Nowadays, yes religion play a big role in both side.

 

[platocplx]

The zionist movement worked with the British, and in 1917, the British government promise that he will give Palestine to the zionist movement.

The same british government promised the same thing to arabs nationalist who had defeated the Ottoman Empire with the help of the British. They were therefore stucked in their own contradictory promises and that led to the jewish revolt against the British that ended by the establishement of the zionist state and the forced exil of the Palestinian people.

There is a great movie about those events that was aired by the BBC some years ago:

If I get this wrong someone should correct me, but basically:

- Palestine had been territory owned by the British since the late 19th century.

- Everyone knew that antisemitism was a huge factor in the rise of European fascism in the 30s.

- Western Society had this ridiculous idea in 1948 that if the British just gave Palestine to Jewish people that it would somehow solve the antisemitism in Europe.

Ah i see thats so crazy to me, just because of the worlds track record of atrocities and even remotely trying to atone for them(which seems rare or totally terrible) This is pretty wild.

 

[Frustrated_me]

How do these people sleep at night? No, seriously, how shameful is this occupation?

..And the world just sits and does fuck all.

 

[Biff]

The state of Israel is committing a slow and deliberate genocide against the Palestinian people. They use the excuse of terrorism to commit war crimes and perpetuate one of the worst cases of armed oppression in the history of the human species, but frankly if I lived like this I'd probably be shooting rockets over the border myself. They have taken everything from these people (most of them CHILDREN) and won't even grant them a swift death, instead condemning them to a years-long process of despair and degradation.

Fuck Israel and fuck my own country for enabling them.

Aeolist, what is the purpose of starting a thread with comments like this?

Are you an adult who wants to have an actual discussion with other adults on an adult topic? Or do you simply want yet another circle jerk thread to shit on Israel?

When you use inflammatory statements like "genocide", you get the latter, 100% of the time.

It's an extremely complex situation. Probably the most complex of the 21st century. Have you lived through 150 suicide bombing attacks in the past 15 years? No? So what makes you the judge and jury on the middle east crisis?

Please, for the sake of intellectual discussion, restrain your extreme, inflammatory opinions from the OP next time. I promise you such threads will ignite quick enough without your lighter fluid.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

- Palestine had been territory owned by the British since the late 19th century.

1917

 

[aeolist]

Aeolist, what is the purpose of starting a thread with comments like this?

Are you an adult who wants to have an actual discussion with other adults on an adult topic? Or do you simply want yet another circle jerk thread to shit on Israel?

When you use inflammatory statements like "genocide", you get the latter, 100% of the time.

It's an extremely complex situation. Probably the most complex of the 21st century. Have you lived through 150 suicide bombing attacks in the past 15 years? No? So what makes you the judge and jury on the middle east crisis?

Please, for the sake of intellectual discussion, restrain your extreme, inflammatory opinions from the OP next time. I promise you such threads will ignite quick enough without your lighter fluid.

it's a complex situation that is completely unjustifiable from the israeli side. there is no nuance to their policy or response, they're just collectively punishing 2 million people for the actions of a few at a scale and intensity that is completely out of proportion. i would say i feel sorry for people who have had homes and property destroyed by hamas rockets but they're still infinitely better off than the palestinians their government is oppressing and murdering.

if i sound pissed it's because i am. there is absolutely no excuse for what's being done to these people.

 

[Vindicator]

Nowadays, yes religion play a big role in both side.

On one side religion also means race, which is even more fucked up when it comes to down to elitist behaviour.

The other side is fucked up as well, religion is extremely outdated imo.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Ah i see thats so crazy to me, just because of the worlds track record of atrocities and even remotely trying to atone for them(which seems rare or totally terrible) This is pretty wild.

I don't think that Balfour declaration have anything to do with atoning for crimes but was made to secure strategic interests of the English Empire. The european elite of that time was highly antisemite (you even had a "antisemite party" in France), and to have europeans jews lefting Europe and that would destabilize the region was a win-win situation for Great Britain elite. Hitler first plan was to deport jews to Palestine. Antisemitism and zionism were fuelling each other, it's why we got this horrendous quote from one of Israel funder, Ben Gurion:

If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half by transporting to Eretz Yisrael [the Land of Israel], then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history of the People of Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/07/06/reviews/970706.06wyman.html