Support NeoGAF

[bummyhead]

What follows is a rant I put together the other night. It's a little disjointed, and many typos can be found, but I don't feel like editing it. I think it gets the point across. Let me explain my position a bit first, to add some context.

I have just purchased a DS. I am very impressed with it. The graphics look great, if not in screenshots, certainly in motion. Next to the PSP or todays systems they are nothing special, but I think as a portable system it has the perfect balance of power, features, battery life etc. It's slightly bulky after getting used to the SP, but compared to the regular GBA it's still pretty compact. The screens are bright and crisp and easy on the eyes, and while they may not be ultra high resolution like the PSP, they are still quite purty.

I am not really a Nintendo fanboy, I mean, I do have a soft spot in my heart for them, mostly out of Nostalgia, my childhood revolved around Nintendo. But then again I never liked Mario games much, didn't really get into Zelda until the gameboy and later the n64 games came out. I didn't really shed a tear for Sega. On the flip side I wouldn't have shed a tear back in the day if Sega had "won" and Nintendo has been humbled. So I guess I'll admit that I just don't really like Sony. Of course I think Hiroshi Yamauchi was an arrogant foolish lump of shit at times, so I'm an equal opportunity hater. I'll admit I would hate to see Sony take over the handheld market two, they cater way to much to the "Casual" gamer, and that scenario really wouldn't be good for anyone. I am not unhappy about the PSP's existance. In fact a year ago when it was announced I was VERY, VERY excited about it, the prospect of the handheld market getting a shake up was pretty exciting to me, as I only really play handheld games these days, having a lot less spare time that I once did.

But I digress. My worry is not about Nintendo losing, but of Sony winning. If there was a strategic partnership between Nintendo and MS, I think that'd be great, because there really isn't enough room in the market for a three way split of the market. The closer to a 50/50 split we have, the better for us gamers.

Anyway, I probably will not get a PSP despite my early excitement. Not because I don't think it's cool, but because I don't trust Sony hardware as far as I can throw it. So while I think it's a beauty of a unit, I have had enough experience with shoddilly constructed Sony products to not want to touch their porducts, and I am not just talking about game systems.

I am concerned though about nintendo's silly insistance about DS being a third pillar. In my opinion this is a stupid business move that will only serve to segemtn their userbase, and alienate both consumers and developers. i have detailed my feelings below. The jist of it: Nintendo should either make DS their only handheld line, or gameboy their only line.


----------------------

nintendo still stubbornly insists that the DS does not replace the GB series, and that a new high powerd gameboy is on the way. But I don't buy it at all. I think they are taking a wait and see approach with the Ds. If it's a total success, then DS becomes the new base for Nintendo handhelds.

If it's a failure, which is looking more and more unlikely every day, then Nintendo let's it drift into history and brings out the next gameboy with the single untouchable screen we all know, but with a fair bit of zip under the hood.

To Continue both lines would be a bizzare business move as it permanently splits the user base, and more importantly is unfriendly to the max for developers. Sure, for right now the GBA will contintue to thrive, as it's base is MOSTLY kids who's parents buy them the system, it's cheap, and DOES cater to a signifcantly different audience than the DS. But the next gameboy, if it does come to pass will surely appeal to the older crowed, and if it really is high powered, will cost more. This will put it right into the same market as the DS. What do you think developers will do now? Will they continue to support the DS, or will they jump ship to the new gameboy? my guess is the latter. but maybe we'll get lcuky and they will develop games for both systems. now which version to you buy? the graphically inferior DS version with nifty touch screen features? or the graphically superior Gameboy Ultra version? What is multiple version are impractical? does the RPG developer design the game on the DS, taking into acount how great the touch screen would be for a menu heavy rpg? or do they decide to forgo that in favour of a grpahical wonder in GBU?

And that's just while the first version of DS is out. It gets even harder to justify once you have a DS2 in five years that matches or exceeds the GB Ultra, PLUS it has touchscreen and voice recognition capabilties. What possible reason does the GBU have to exist now?

How happy will YOU be in two years when nintendo releases a hgih powered gameboy that exceeds the DS in power, splintering the market and forcing you to own TWO nintendo handhelds if you want to play all the games?

It does not take a genius to figure out what is going to happen here. The DS, grand experiment though it was, is looking very much like it is going to be a grand success. Therefore it is entirely likley that there will not be a "next gameboy" but rather a "next DS". If by some bizzare chnage of course the DS ends up being a failure, then by all means the next gameboy will come out, and sooner rather than later.

But mark my words, the two lines will not coexist for the long term. If Nintendo actually attempted this they may as well stamp sega on there foreheads and call themselves dead, as dumping way to much hardware on the market in too short a space of time is what alienated Sega's userbase and started their downfall. None of us think nintendo is that stupid, do we?

and before someone counters with the tire old " But DS is completely different from gameboy with a different kind of game line-up", I'll say this. The games aren't that differen't, in fact I'll venture the vast majority don't end up being any different at all. The greater part of the launch line up is made up of traditon styled games, some of which have been imporved considerably by the touch screen, some that have not, but all are at the core the same old, from Madden, to Mario, to Tiger Woods, to Rayman, and 90% of everything else, it's not really different at all, and that isn't really a bad thing, it JUST *is*.

And frankly I cant understand why anyone would WANT DS and Gameboy to co-exist, and not simply want one single handheld that does it all. It's certainly not a good thing for us consumers.
-----------------------


please share your thoughts. Also, please, if you have the urge to start a flame war, STOP. There is opportunity for civilised discussion here, if you are a fanboy of any kind (DS or PSP) please just keep quiet, ok?

 

[The Faceless Master]

he wants the DS to fail because the market can't handle two nintendo handhelds, allowing sony to win

 

[bummyhead]

he wants the DS to fail because the market can't handle two nintendo handhelds, allowing sony to win

where the hell did you get THAT from?

 

[mashoutposse]

where the hell did you get THAT from?

Re-read your post, organize it, then repost. You'll get a better response that way.

 

[XS+]

How many of these threads do we need?

 

[Atomsmasher]

If anything, DS can be seen a place holder in between the GBA and the next real GB. Look at the release charts, GBA is nearing the end of its life. There arent that many key titles left. So in they bring the DS, which is part experiment, part filler. It gives PSP the problem of having to fight off two different hand helds when it is brand new. Once the GBA is completely dead, the DS will still be there with software good enough to keep it in battle with the PSP. And by the time PSP starts making money for Sony (like they said, they dont expect it to be profitable for a few years), Nintendo brings out the true GBA successor which trumps the PSP.

Honestly, who cares what they do with the DS. If every game thats been announced so far gets released, and then it dies, it'll still be a worthy purchase. If anything, the DS will force Sony to lower prices on the PSP. I mean, do you honestly think that they would sell the PSP for $185 if the DS didn't exist? I sure don't. So, I don't see it as bad for gamers at all.

 

[fse]

I am waitng for the DS SP

 

[Atomsmasher]

I am waitng for the DS SP

:lol

.. I seriously hope they don't pull that again

"Coming soon, DS SP. Now you can return to the OS after using pictochat or the options menu without rebooting the whole system!"

 

[bummyhead]

okay, so the every game gets released for the DS, and then it dies, great. that works if the DS is little more than a blip on the radar, not a failure, but not quite a success. no one will likely complain if the concept dies.

But, if the DS is a big success, then it will demand a follow up (DS2 for lack of a better name). how much sense does it make to release a more powerful than DS Gameboy,only to release a beefed up ds a couple years after that. it simply doesn't make sense.

Think about it. If Nintendo suddenly announced a new console (console B)that was a generation more powerful, and had more or less similar games to what was already available on their current console (console A), but with a few extra and very cool features that expanded gameplay options immensely, and then continued to insist that it was not the true successor, and then two years later released an even more powerful console to replace Console A, but removed all of the extra features of console B, thereby making consumers and developers alike choose between a less powerful, but more featured system, or a more powerful, but less featured system, would YOU consider THAT a sensible buisness move? Would it not piss you off as a consumer?

So why i ask, are so many willing to eat it up as if it was the most logical thing in the world just because we're talking handhelds and not home consoles?

 

[Atomsmasher]

But, if the DS is a big success, then it will demand a follow up (DS2 for lack of a better name). how much sense does it make to release a more powerful than DS Gameboy,only to release a beefed up ds a couple years after that. it simply doesn't make sense.

I think if the DS is that big a success, they will probably integrate some of its features into the GBA successor

 

[Hardknock]

Already been posted. Check this out. :lol

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=20231

 

[XS+]

Think about it. If Nintendo suddenly announced a new console (console B)that was a generation more powerful, and had more or less similar games to what was already available on their current console (console A), but with a few extra and very cool features that expanded gameplay options immensely, and then continued to insist that it was not the true successor, and then two years later released an even more powerful console to replace Console A, but removed all of the extra features of console B, thereby making consumers and developers alike choose between a less powerful, but more featured system, or a more powerful, but less featured system, would YOU consider THAT a sensible buisness move? Would it not piss you off as a consumer?

So why i ask, are so many willing to eat it up as if it was the most logical thing in the world just because we're talking handhelds and not home consoles?

First, I don't think the DS will be a success.

You're absolutely right. As I stated yesterday, the DS is an insult to consumers. Sadly, many will lap this up as they have Nintendo's products in the past. It's a handheld that houses sub-n64 technology, with a tacked on touchscreen. What you've stated is exactly what Nintendo aims to do.

 

[border]

"Third Pillar" is just meaningless PR rhetoric that is meant to keep the DS from looking like a stopgap platform meant to protect the market from the PSP (which it pretty clearly is). There's no doubt in my mind that if the dual screens and touchscreen are a hit, Nintendo won't hesitate to include them in the next Gameboy and switch all their development resources over to GBA2 (while maintaining backwards compatibility).

At the end of the day, I think gamers will regard the DS as "the new Gameboy" whether it has the brand name or not. Nintendo's software has defined every single handheld/console that they have released, and the fact that almost all their major franchises are coming to DS speaks much louder than all this "Third Pillar" nonsense. Within 12-18 months, most legitimate games will have switched to PSP and DS, and the GBA will be left with licensed Nicktoon nonsense, Barbie games, and low grade EA ports (much like the PSOne currently is). The big question in my mind is how consumers will react if Nintendo tries to spring another new system on them in the next couple of years.

My main complaint is that all this spells out the end of 2D, and I think it's a shame that 2D's last hurrah has to be on an underpowered platform like GBA.

 

[bummyhead]

First, I don't think the DS will be a success.

You're absolutely right. As I stated yesterday, the DS is an insult to consumers. Sadly, many will lap this up as they have Nintendo's products in the past. It's a handheld that houses sub-n64 technology, with a tacked on touchscreen. What you've stated is exactly what Nintendo aims to do.

and the fanboys have arrived. play with the facts please. 5 million units shipped in only four months is huge (if projections hold of course), so the DS is already looking like a success, it remains only to be seen how MUCH of a success it is in the long term.

that was a troll post.

 

[bummyhead]

"Third Pillar" is just meaningless PR rhetoric that is meant to keep the DS from looking like a stopgap platform meant to protect the market from the PSP (which it pretty clearly is). There's no doubt in my mind that if the dual screens and touchscreen are a hit, Nintendo won't hesitate to include them in the next Gameboy and switch all their development resources over to GBA2 (while maintaining backwards compatibility).

At the end of the day, I think gamers will regard the DS as "the new Gameboy" whether it has the brand name or not. Nintendo's software has defined every single handheld/console that they have released, and the fact that almost all their major franchises are coming to DS speaks much louder than all this "Third Pillar" nonsense. Within 12-18 months, most legitimate games will have switched to PSP and DS, and the GBA will be left with licensed Nicktoon nonsense, Barbie games, and low grade EA ports (much like the PSOne currently is). The big question in my mind is how consumers will react if Nintendo tries to spring another new system on them in the next couple of years.

My main complaint is that all this spells out the end of 2D, and I think it's a shame that 2D's last hurrah has to be on an underpowered platform like GBA.

IAWTP

 

[drohne]

i can't imagine that future nintendo handhelds will all have two displays. and given that people are already reporting visible scratches on the ds's touchscreen, i wonder whether nintendo would want to put a touchscreen on a psp-quality handheld.

psp uses a very different business model than nintendo's -- they're taking a loss on the hardware and hoping to make it back on software. i don't know if it'll pan out for them, but as long as they stick to it, nintendo will have a hard time competing directly. it's pretty ridiculous that the psp is a generation ahead of ds and only marginally more expensive.

 

[.:RaZieL:.]

I don't really think it's that much of a problem.
If the DS fails (pretty small chance), then Nintendo releases the GBA2 by the time Sony is starting to make profit out of the PSP, overpowering the PSP in the graphics department because they had more time to develope the system.
If the DS is teh winner, then they will just intergrate some of the key features of the DS into the GBA2.

Either way Nintendo has a backup plan, and Sony will be fighting two nintendo handhelds with there PSP.
Ofcourse this will be very hard for Sony to counter, just because there new in the handheld market and already get to fight two systems by the current Nr.1 brand in handhelds.

Nintendo is just testing the consumer if they like the touch screen and dual screen stuff, with that info they will decide what they will intergrate into the GBA2. In the end GBA2 will just be a mix of all the great things from GBA and DS with better graphics then the PSP.
Besides, DS is already putting up a great fight, just imagine what the GBA/DS 2 will do.

It's a win/win situation for Nintendo

 

[border]

The Sony/MS hardware model means that 1st parties take pretty big losses on the initial hardware, then recoup them in the final years of development. In many ways this extends to 3rd parties as well though. Particularly with the complexity of 3D, developers are required to spend a large amount of money when moving to a new platform (learning how to code for it, buying devkits, etc). If things are moving in this direction, then a 2-3 year product cycle is not tolerable (particularly for handhelds that have a low tie ratio)....1st parties and 3rd parties won't have enough time to recoup their initial investment. A Third Pillar just won't work, if it is going to be constantly undercutting a platform that is only a couple years old.

and given that people are already reporting visible scratches on the ds's touchscreen, i wonder whether nintendo would want to put a touchscreen on a psp-quality handheld.

They can make the top screen a high-quality PSP-style display, and have the bottom screen be a good deal cheaper. If the DS's features really do invigorate and excite consumers, I don't see how Nintendo can expect people to take a step back with the next Gameboy. It would be like not including 4 controller ports on the Revolution or something.

If Nintendo maintains their philosophy of putting out budget handhelds that have a sizable profit margin, then I doubt that they will be able to offer any significant technological leap over the PSP. They will have to differentiate themselves from the 2007-2008 PSP by offering something different (touchscreen, dualscreen). Otherwise they will be facing an entrenched competitor with very little to offer. Microsoft understood this when designing the Xbox, so they included stuff like the ethernet and hard drive and fairly consistent 480p support....things that at least seemed to offer new possibilities (even if they didn't end up being a big deal). Stepping up to the PSP with nearly identical hardware will not pan out.

 

[Scrow]

My main complaint is that all this spells out the end of 2D, and I think it's a shame that 2D's last hurrah has to be on an underpowered platform like GBA.

uh, underpowered? what the hell kind of specs do you want for 2D graphics?

 

[AstroLad]

The Sony/MS hardware model means that 1st parties take pretty big losses on the initial hardware, then recoup them in the final years of development. In many ways this extends to 3rd parties as well though. Particularly with the complexity of 3D, developers are required to spend a large amount of money when moving to a new platform (learning how to code for it, buying devkits, etc). If things are moving in this direction, then a 2-3 year product cycle is not tolerable (particularly for handhelds that have a low tie ratio)....1st parties and 3rd parties won't have enough time to recoup their initial investment. A Third Pillar just won't work, if it is going to be constantly undercutting a platform that is only a couple years old.

They can make the top screen a high-quality PSP-style display, and have the bottom screen be a good deal cheaper. If the DS's features really do invigorate and excite consumers, I don't see how Nintendo can expect people to take a step back with the next Gameboy. It would be like not including 4 controller ports on the Revolution or something.

If Nintendo maintains their philosophy of putting out budget handhelds that have a sizable profit margin, then I doubt that they will be able to offer any significant technological leap over the PSP. They will have to differentiate themselves from the 2007-2008 PSP by offering something different (touchscreen, dualscreen). Otherwise they will be facing an entrenched competitor with very little to offer. Microsoft understood this when designing the Xbox, so they included stuff like the ethernet and hard drive and fairly consistent 480p support....things that at least seemed to offer new possibilities (even if they didn't pan out). Stepping up to the PSP with nearly identical hardware will not pan out.

Hard drive panned out, I haven't bought a godforsaken memory card in ages. Last I checked, X-Box Live still works too.

As for this DS vs. PSP shit, wake me up when it's over.

 

[border]

I would have liked it if GBA had full NTSC resolution games (640x480) with at least the capabilities of a Neo Geo. It's a bit frustrating that emulating decade-old hardware produces better 2D than a platform that is less than 5 years old.

Hard drive panned out, I haven't bought a godforsaken memory card in ages. Last I checked, X-Box Live still works too.

Hard drive worked for saves, but it really didn't expand the games that much. I probably phrase it badly, though.

 

[Kobun Heat]

I wouldn't worry too much about Nintendo pulling a Sega-style hardware blitz that segments markets and confuses consumers. I'd imagine their next portable system will be here in, going by recent history, about three and a half years. Whether or not it's backwards compatible with DS software (that is to say, incorporates all the features of the DS) is wholly dependent on how the DS catches on with developers and consumers.

In the middle of that -- maybe around two years from now -- they may very well introduce a new-styled DS system if they can come up with significant improvements. (I'm not sure I can think of anything, but that's Sugino's job and not mine.)

 

[jiggle]

uh, underpowered? what the hell kind of specs do you want for 2D graphics?

There's actually lots of room for improvement for 2D. Take a look at 2D games like Legend of Mana/Saga Frontier/Atelier Iris/Guilty Gear on the consoles. Hopefully PSP and DS will have 2D games that look like those.

 

[DDayton]

i can't imagine that future nintendo handhelds will all have two displays. and given that people are already reporting visible scratches on the ds's touchscreen, i wonder whether nintendo would want to put a touchscreen on a psp-quality handheld.

1. Nintendo zealots are more likely to play the DS than non-zealots.
2. Nintendo zealots have not been reporting scratches on the DS.
3. Perhaps the DS isn't scratching under heavy use after all?

All I know is that I've played the DS quite a bit, and I haven't found a single scratch. I find it hard to believe that folks who play it less often or rarely would have created scratches when I haven't.

 

[iapetus]

All I know is that I've played the DS quite a bit, and I haven't found a single scratch. I find it hard to believe that folks who play it less often or rarely would have created scratches when I haven't.

It's bizarre, but there's always a higher incidence of hardware failure among people who are predisposed to dislike that system. I should write a paper on it, or something.

 

[speedpop]

It's all karma.

You would not believe how scratched my screen got on the original Gameboy's (up till GBA original) and I never once bitched and moaned like someone people do. Hint: it does not detract from the overall gameplay experience. One thing I have never quite understood; if you gain a few scratches, what the hell are you doing crying to other gamers? Go do something reasonable about your wasted breath and do it to the company in question.

My GBA SP has two scratches thus far and they are very very slight. Heck even my girlfriend's cell uses a stylus and I have used it to death drawing random crap, no scratches thus far.

 

[Azih]

It's bizarre, but there's always a higher incidence of hardware failure among people who are predisposed to dislike that system. I should write a paper on it, or something.

Don't forget the vice versa effect.

 

[bitwise]

Heck even my girlfriend's cell uses a stylus and I have used it to death drawing random crap, no scratches thus far.

your girlfriend has/does everything, i'd love to meet her


"Heard about this from the girlfriend last night."

"God bless my girlfriend for trying her best to figure out WTF was going on and actually persisting enough to get rid of it - how she did it, I do not know sorry."

"Looking at the screenies, I can't help but hear my girlfriend saying "now this is what cel-shading should look like, still Wind Waker is better!"

"Pro Evolution Soccer 3 - Constantly playing this but I've slowed down somewhat. My master league is on season 6, I rarely get any points i.e. money on each league win (due to having what I have mustered as the "dream team") and I have just achieved my undefeated season in season 5; Arsenal style. Lately getting the girlfriend to play against me which is cool."

'My current girlfriend is from Singapore and is studying here in Australia."

"It's kinda funny cause my girlfriend is from Singapore but looks a cross between Japanese and Korean and has some gigantic boobs and long legs (which is very rare to find in someone of asian descent). She always tells me "I look like some girl from an anime", I tend to agree most of the time."

"Heh my girlfriend is a wasabi nut. Soy sauce with TONS of wasabi is her way of life."

"Dunno, my japanese is very rusty and I don't really want to wake the girlfriend up just to say "OMG WTF does this say?!" Otherwise I'd be able to agree or disagree with you."

"Needless to say, of course there is corruption in the drug industry. Went down to the pharmacy and bought all this shit for my girlfriend due to food poisoning.."

"So far the girlfriend only regularly beats me at certain games but usually only happens when her friends play at the same time."

"As much as I enjoy watching anime, I've always had the "manga version is always better" stance. My girlfriend has been enjoying the Monster anime so far quite a lot, but when I read through the manga I just felt so much more attached to each character."

"Current girlfriend likes to play now and again, usual multiplayers - Mario Kart, Smash Bros, etc etc. She's getting pretty good at Mario Golf and Mario Kart, hasn't really tried RPGs yet but I know she'd love them if she tried.. just doesn't have the time so I don't blame her"

"Funny, my girlfriend is getting a DS probably before me."

 

[crisdecuba]

and given that people are already reporting visible scratches on the ds's touchscreen, i wonder whether nintendo would want to put a touchscreen on a psp-quality handheld.

Maybe they didn't try *wiping the screen.*

I've attacked the display unit at Best Buy and noticed 2 things:

1) No one before me had done any damage to it.

2) As much or as hard as I rubbed the BB stylus on the screen, I couldn't cause any marks that weren't *fully removed* upon wiping the screen.

The touch screen is grade A quality.

~Cris

 

[fse]

GBA 2 with touch screen! heard it first.

 

[drohne]

actually the display units i've seen looked pristine, as far as i could tell. i never got a particularly good look, since the units were mounted about crotch-height to a grown man, but i was still impressed.

 

[Kobun Heat]

i never got a particularly good look, since the units were mounted about crotch-height to a grown man, but i was still impressed.

They put it there in case the stylus gets lost.

 

[Drinky Crow]

The touch screen on the DS units at the Alderwood, WA EB were beat nine ways to hell yesterday. Though the way I saw one brat stabbing the screen, I'm not surprised -- I dunno if my car's windshield could take that kind of abuse, much less a touch screen.

 

[missAran]

I'm a Nintendo fanboy and I'm not interested in buying a DS at all. Nintendo had offered me NO incentive to buy one -- not even an original Mario title. I may pick one up some time next year, but even so, it's not good. Nintendo needs to guarentee and awesome lead when Sony attacks it.

Nintendo's handheld business is huge and it's the only thing keeping the company alive today, if Sony takes it, Nintendo will take a big blow. This isn't healty for Nintendo, obviously, but it's also bad for the entire industry.

The DS has the potential to rape the PSP, it has the resources and the innovation. But so far, Nintendo, itself, has yet to capitalize on it -- and I don't see third party developers taking advantage of it anytime soon. At this point it appears that developers (inclis merely shoehorning games to work with DS; I'm not impressed. No one should be, to be frank.

 

[AirBrian]

I'm a Nintendo fanboy and I'm not interested in buying a DS at all. Nintendo had offered me NO incentive to buy one -- not even an original Mario title. I may pick one up some time next year, but even so, it's not good. Nintendo needs to guarentee and awesome lead when Sony attacks it.

So because you're not interested that means Nintendo won't have a sizable lead when the PSP comes out?

Nintendo's handheld business is huge and it's the only thing keeping the company alive today, if Sony takes it, Nintendo will take a big blow. This isn't healty for Nintendo, obviously, but it's also bad for the entire industry.

Have you seen Nintendo's software sales for GC? Yes, GBA accounts for a large portion of Nintendo's profits, but it's far from the only thing that's keeping the company alive.

The DS has the potential to rape the PSP, it has the resources and the innovation.

While the DS and PSP are technically aimed at the same audience, I think there is room for both to happily exist. The handheld market is largely untapped, and I believe there's plenty of growth potential for the DS and the PSP without significantly harming GBA sales.

But so far, Nintendo, itself, has yet to capitalize on it -- and I don't see third party developers taking advantage of it anytime soon. At this point it appears that developers (inclis merely shoehorning games to work with DS; I'm not impressed. No one should be, to be frank.

Read the Madden '06 DS interview. Play Feel the Magic or even Mario 64 DS's mini-games. There are third parties taking advantage of the it's capabilities, just have a little patience. It's a brand new product and will take some time for developers to accustomed to it. What specific functions are you talking about?

 

[geogaddi]

 

[bummyhead]

wow. im surprised at how amny agree with me. Guess im used to all those morons on GFAQS that swallow the whole thrid pillar bull hook line....

 

[explodet]

wow. im surprised at how amny agree with me. Guess im used to all those morons on GFAQS that swallow the whole thrid pillar bull hook line....

We get a good mix here (although a few would say otherwise).