The DS, why i am proud of Nintendo for what they did.
- Thread starter Monk
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seismologist
Banned
people who think the touch screen is a gimmick simply lack creativity.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
What games came out in the Japanese DS launch? The US launch was pretty abysmal (certainly worse than just about any other launch that I can think of-- although judging a system by its launch is pretty silly).
As far as gimmicks-- the touch screen itself is not a gimmick, and I do think it will become a standard. The way it's being used certainly is a gimmick, though. And it's a questionable design choice for any game where you need to use the stylus and buttons, since you haev to hold the unit as well.
Take a look at some Palm and Pocket PC games to see how game makers who've had the option for a while use the stylus. There are some good uses. But as an analogue control replcement, it kinda stinks.
As far as gimmicks-- the touch screen itself is not a gimmick, and I do think it will become a standard. The way it's being used certainly is a gimmick, though. And it's a questionable design choice for any game where you need to use the stylus and buttons, since you haev to hold the unit as well.
Take a look at some Palm and Pocket PC games to see how game makers who've had the option for a while use the stylus. There are some good uses. But as an analogue control replcement, it kinda stinks.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
seismologist said:
Much like the port team of Ridge Racer DS!
sammy said:
Funny you say that, seeing as how the DS lacks an analog stick/nub.
But that's not what I meant by my post. I meant the whole "touch screen as universal standard" comment. Touch screen, should it become a standard (and I believe it will), will not become the standard for game control on a handheld.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
sammy said:
Analog made sense right off the bat. 360 degree control instead of standard 8 way, pressure sensitive directional controls instead of 'on/off' feel, etc -- very practical advantages, lots of obvious potential. Nintendo themselves justified it by debuting the stick simultaneously with a magnificent game based around it.
On the other hand, Nintendo seems to have inserted the touchscreen without first developing concrete ideas as to how to use it effectively. If they did, they would have launched the system with a "let's show them how it's supposed to be done" type of game, like they did for the analog stick. By not doing that, it puts the touchscreen squarely in the 'gimmick' category, IMO.
seismologist
Banned
mashoutposse said:
The 30+ minigames in Mario DS are examples of how to use the touch screen in game. Plus the game itself features a map on the bottom screen with virtual analog. Wario Ware has another what 100+? gameplay examples of touchscreen usage.
If you can't extrapolate from there then you simply lack creativity.
seismologist said:
So let me get this straight. Your example of "creativity" is a collection of mini-games, a map on the second screen and simulated analog control that has been done 100x better with ACTUAL analog control?
Wow. Just... wow.
You see, Wario Ware is creative not because it's a collection of mini-games.
Kabuki Waq
Member
yes it was risky for nintendo to rely on a pure gimmick and not just make a bigger screen which would have been SO much better :lol
radioheadrule83
Banned
I think DS was a good idea, because its a good outlet for simple to use, fun to play games. It's also a place for their ideas like Wario Ware, the Mario 64 minigames, Yoshi's Touch & Go, and various puzzlers to thrive.
I think there will be a market for a console that will always be cheaper than a PSP. I think there is a market for simple but involving gameplay too. The same people who will play a cell phone game but can't comprehend 3d movement of a cartoon character relative to a virtual camera. Or for people who don't want to.
It's also possible that they could create some good non-gaming applications for the machine, or attract companies to the machine not normally at home in the game industry. Messenger apps, browsers, organisers, VOIP apps, paint/artistic programs are all possible. The inclusion of the old GBA slot also leaves things open for a bit of expansion. I have a feeling we could see various adaptors end up in there, maybe a camera or who knows what. As long as a DS card was written to interface with it, or the firmware could be upgraded, I'm sure it'd work great..
I also think people here who don't believe Nintendo will release a seperate Gameboy system could be in for a solid hat/crow/<insert substance> eating session during the next year.
I think there will be a market for a console that will always be cheaper than a PSP. I think there is a market for simple but involving gameplay too. The same people who will play a cell phone game but can't comprehend 3d movement of a cartoon character relative to a virtual camera. Or for people who don't want to.
It's also possible that they could create some good non-gaming applications for the machine, or attract companies to the machine not normally at home in the game industry. Messenger apps, browsers, organisers, VOIP apps, paint/artistic programs are all possible. The inclusion of the old GBA slot also leaves things open for a bit of expansion. I have a feeling we could see various adaptors end up in there, maybe a camera or who knows what. As long as a DS card was written to interface with it, or the firmware could be upgraded, I'm sure it'd work great..
I also think people here who don't believe Nintendo will release a seperate Gameboy system could be in for a solid hat/crow/<insert substance> eating session during the next year.
seismologist
Banned
Amir0x said:
No it takes creativity to recognize that the touch screen can be used for more than minigames. Just because Mario and Wario Ware are collections doesn't mean the only thing the DS is good for are minigames. That's like saying the N64 is only good for 3D platformers because it launched with Mario.
I didn't want to reort to insults but it's getting quite old seeing the same people calling the DS a gimmick because they can't see past the minigames.
Can we just wait a little bit more than 1 1/2 months after release to judge DS potential given the fact that it throws so many new ways of playing to the table?
I am certain we will see GREAT things from DS. C' on now, this is nintendo we are talking about. If there is one thing they do is release great, innovative content.
I am certain we will see GREAT things from DS. C' on now, this is nintendo we are talking about. If there is one thing they do is release great, innovative content.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
seismologist said:
I'd love to hear your creative touchscreen-oriented game concepts.
Anyway, it's not all about creativity; simple logic plays its own part. The game console controller is designed to be as general purpose as possible to facilitate the creation of games from as many genres as possible. 99.9% of games involve movement/direction and genre-specific actions. The action button (including D-Pad) and analog directional stick have thus far proven to be the most friendly control mechanisms to the most game types. Want to jump? Press a button. Want to drop a block in Tetris? Press a button. Want to hit the brakes? Press a button. It doesn't get more general purpose than that.
True control advancements will come in the form of genre-specific controllers. The problem is that, excluding games that simulate first-person interaction with machines (which have relatively easy real-life controls to replicate, such as the steering wheel of a car) or other tangible items, the technology required is not feasible today.
Unless you want to play candle-blowing games (microphone) or a variation of any of the thousands upon thousands of mouse-based, point and click PC titles released in the past (stylus), the DS really doesn't offer that much of an advance, if any at all.
radioheadrule83
Banned
It's a bit different from a mouse. A graphics tablet / mouse combination is a bit closer, but even then, still not right.
You are actually touching the screen, you can do it with your finger if you want... it's an actual display you're touching. It can change like any other display. And as opposed to a mouse which registers changes in movement, this actually registers the position at which you touch it. It's totally untapped. There are PDA games that have taken advantage of it, and those pub-quiz arcade machines - but aside from that, what is there?
This is a totally new input device being put to mass-market by a big name in video games, meaning the adoption rate is automatically high. The game development community now has the motive to play with it.
I'm not saying it's any kind of revolutionary change in portable gaming... it's not. But I do think highly accessible and entertaining games will be made using it. Dismissing it as a gimmick will prove short sighted. I'm certain of it.
You are actually touching the screen, you can do it with your finger if you want... it's an actual display you're touching. It can change like any other display. And as opposed to a mouse which registers changes in movement, this actually registers the position at which you touch it. It's totally untapped. There are PDA games that have taken advantage of it, and those pub-quiz arcade machines - but aside from that, what is there?
This is a totally new input device being put to mass-market by a big name in video games, meaning the adoption rate is automatically high. The game development community now has the motive to play with it.
I'm not saying it's any kind of revolutionary change in portable gaming... it's not. But I do think highly accessible and entertaining games will be made using it. Dismissing it as a gimmick will prove short sighted. I'm certain of it.
On the most basic level, it removes a level of abstraction. In terms of new game designs derived from touch interface, I'm most excited about the idea of drawing used as a gameplay mechanic. Pac-Pix and Yoshi's Touch & Go being good preliminary examples... but imagine the concept being used in something more meaty like Rakugaki Okaku or NiGHTS or something totally new. Right now developers seem to be mainly trying to ingtegrate touch with established game designs, sometimes working (Metroid Prime) sometimes not (Ridge Racer).... I'm more excited about concepts built around touch rather those adapted to it.mashoutposse said:
seismologist
Banned
mashoutposse said:
believe it or not, the mic can be used for more than a "candle blowing game".
well, one simple example I thought of the other day, in Tiger Woods when you're placing your shot with the stylus it would let you select difference clubs using simple voice recognition.
A time crisis type game with the stylus for fire and the l button for reloading.
A starfox type game where you move with the d-pad, fire with the stylus and bomb with the l button.
A sequel to Wonderproject J 2 would be awesome.
A lemmings type game. <- a number of possibilities there
A side scrolling platformer completely operated by voice where the charactere is continuously moving forward.
Blah there are tons of ways you can be creative with the thing.
Sure, but that's adapting an arcade game built around gun controls to a mouse setup. Building a HotD game up around the mouse setting probably would've yielded different results. Namco could just port Time Crisis to DS and the results would probably be similar... or the could make a whole new Time Crisis on DS, adapting the forumla to touch inteface and designing it with that mindset, and have something pretty interesting.The End said:
Monk said:
That was one of the first things that came to my mind too. It helped that I was looking through a bunch of old EGM's when the DS was announced, though.
Lotta hate in this thread
I am going to have so, so much fun in PSP threads as the NDS continues to outsell it throughout the year. It's apparently alright to do that again Cruel Bastard Mario said:That was one of the first things that came to my mind too. It helped that I was looking through a bunch of old EGM's when the DS was announced, though.
Lotta hate in this thread
No, what you do is wait for the first month that the PSP outsells the DS, then pretend the PSP doesn't exist and that a turnabout is an inevitability. That's the precedent to follow.
Why the heck would I do something like that? First, I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right (as PSP shipments will be held back by availability for the most of 2005, whereas NDS shipments will not)
Second, dude, Pokemon in 2005.
That is a game that can push a million units in a month, easily.
I got this one
Second, dude, Pokemon in 2005.
That is a game that can push a million units in a month, easily.
I got this one
Coming up with "creative" touchscreen game ideas is not hard, if that is your only objective. Coming up with ideas that are good, and actually sound fun is another thing altogether. Rail shooting with a stylus doesn't sound exciting.
I would like to see something like Missile Command on the DS. They'd have to speed it up a bit since sytlus is faster than the arcade controls. Centipede would be cool too.....maybe any of those old arcade games that used trackballs.
I would like to see something like Missile Command on the DS. They'd have to speed it up a bit since sytlus is faster than the arcade controls. Centipede would be cool too.....maybe any of those old arcade games that used trackballs.
I don't think the mic will be used in any complicated way for DS. Voice recognition software is still faulty, and Sony even made a game using voice recognition for PS2 (Lifeline or something?) which sometimes failed to recognize your voice input. Putting a somewhat complex voice recognition game on a handheld would kind of limit the usage even more I think, if you're travelling for example (ie being in a noisy environment).
border said:
There are two types of games that wouldn't cause too much of a stir if they were released on a console.
1) Offshoots of a popular series
2) Enhanced remake of a popular game.
Both are getting major coverage on the two handhelds, however.
And besides, ACDS looks like a new game, unless I missed this part of Animal Crossing on the GCN.
seismologist
Banned
Voice recognition is getting better. I forget who I called the other day (think it was SBC) their automatic voice recognition over the phone was pretty impressive.
Lifeline for PS2 was too ambitious, you can't use voice for everything. But simple voice commands to augment the stylus control would probably work.
Lifeline for PS2 was too ambitious, you can't use voice for everything. But simple voice commands to augment the stylus control would probably work.
Speevy said:There are two types of games that wouldn't cause too much of a stir if they were released on a console.
1) Offshoots of a popular series
2) Enhanced remake of a popular game.
Both are getting major coverage on the two handhelds, however.
And besides, ACDS looks like a new game, unless I missed this part of Animal Crossing on the GCN.
I never got such coverage of the sky before! This is killer app!
I keed, I keed... I had to make that comment. It's obligatory.
Although I hate Animal Crossing.
*runs*
MrAngryFace
Banned
Sky > Map
Revolution continues!
Revolution continues!
Kiriku said:
All of those prove my point? I don't know about Soul Reaver, but BGDA is hardly required play for any console, FF Tactics was a goog one, REMake was terrible IMO, and MGSTTS is largely considered garbage by fans of the series. Anyway, none of these games sold systems.