Azure Dream
Member
Even includes footage from this week, impressive.
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The Final Bosman Show
- Thread starter iNvid02
- Start date
Even includes footage from this week, impressive.
RadioactiveLobster
Member
For the new page...
TetraGenesis
Member
My favorite thing about The Final Bosman is the meta-narrative. I feel so rewarded as a fan for having watched all the episodes and bonus bits. I've invested in the character of "Kyle" and his life around the office as much as the real Kyle and his delightful opinions on video games.
And can we all just reminisce over how great the "Mr. Mime" moment was at the end of Season 1? That's the rewarding stuff I'm talking about.
Edit: HAHAHAHAHA! RadioActiveLobster, you did it! Thank you! Saved.
And can we all just reminisce over how great the "Mr. Mime" moment was at the end of Season 1? That's the rewarding stuff I'm talking about.
Edit: HAHAHAHAHA! RadioActiveLobster, you did it! Thank you! Saved.
WrenchNinja
Member
Talks about not giving a shit about Otacon and Naomi or anyone because MGS4 didn't make you care and that it depended too much on past games for you to care about them
Talks about caring SO MUCH about Chico and Paz and Miller and Big Boss in a game that has an 11 page summary about these characters. I'm sorry, Who the fuck is Chico and Paz? Oh right, you had to play Peacewalker to care
Amusing justification
Talks about caring SO MUCH about Chico and Paz and Miller and Big Boss in a game that has an 11 page summary about these characters. I'm sorry, Who the fuck is Chico and Paz? Oh right, you had to play Peacewalker to care
Amusing justification
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Incredible bonus bit. That line
was a pretty darn good line.
So what's going to happen here?
I'm getting too into the bonus bits, aren't I :/
"For the first time in my life I feel like I can look into a mirror"
So what's going to happen here?
Where's future Kyle? How did present Kyle get info out of him? Is he really future Kyle? But he had that bandage... If he's present Kyle then why is he evil?
TetraGenesis
Member
Still a less convoluted story than MGS4.
I think the 11-page story summary is one of the least talked about but most damning things about Ground Zeroes, just because it's so fucking lazy.
If you're going to sell somebody a 2-hour demo, at least come up with some kind of creative, cinematic way to tell all the necessary back story. Have some flashbacks and dialogues that do it, and make them optional. Don't just throw 11 pages of text at people and call it a day.
The series is known for massive, extended cutscenes that are huge obnoxious exposition-dumps.....so it's not like the people playing it would really mind.
If you're going to sell somebody a 2-hour demo, at least come up with some kind of creative, cinematic way to tell all the necessary back story. Have some flashbacks and dialogues that do it, and make them optional. Don't just throw 11 pages of text at people and call it a day.
The series is known for massive, extended cutscenes that are huge obnoxious exposition-dumps.....so it's not like the people playing it would really mind.
Remember when MGS1 had those extra FMVs in the main menu, showing Snake getting briefed on the mission and so forth?
Snake's hair is what sold me on the game.
Honestly I think the tapes in Ground Zeroes are a lot more integral to giving a shit about the characters and plot than Peace Walker.
JoseOle5990
Member
I realized something when he talked about Tomb Raider. I didn't remember what Lara looked like in Tomb Raider (2013), but I did remember what she looked like in Tomb Raider 3 back in the late 90's, with all the chunky polygons and no facial expressions.
Sometimes less is more.
Sometimes less is more.
WrenchNinja
Member
If the player needs to listen to optional collectables to care about characters central to the game, then that's pretty poor story telling
I liked the episode. He made some solid points about women on development teams.
Completely missing the point. It was about making her feel more human.
TLoU is about a man and a girl in a freaking zombie infested wasteland and yet they still managed to have humor, and they came across like real people.
I didn't think Lara was that bad in Tomb Raider tbh, but I see where he is coming from.
It thought it was a fine episode.
the part about Lara not feeling human, but like a well packaged product (he didn't say it in these terms, but this is how i interpreted it) and the GTAV bit were spot on.
Not sure if more females in the R* team would help, as much as not having Dan Houser and (especially) Lazlow write all their stories and humor.
I think the problem with GTA comes from a different place though, RDR had the depth that GTAV lacked, at this point i think the series is simply trapped within its own tropes, old things people expect from it and new paradigms that R* wants to push, such as more serious storytelling.
It doesn't surprise me that a game like RDR, that doesn't have to adhere to a certain brand of (very lame) satire and humor, is more free to explore a deeper story, whereas GTAV is trapped in that limbo.
As on the nose and obnoxious as Max Payne 3 was, even that one didn't have that weird duality in tone that GTAV has, and Max Payne was another game where they had to adhere to pre-established tropes.
the part about Lara not feeling human, but like a well packaged product (he didn't say it in these terms, but this is how i interpreted it) and the GTAV bit were spot on.
Not sure if more females in the R* team would help, as much as not having Dan Houser and (especially) Lazlow write all their stories and humor.
I think the problem with GTA comes from a different place though, RDR had the depth that GTAV lacked, at this point i think the series is simply trapped within its own tropes, old things people expect from it and new paradigms that R* wants to push, such as more serious storytelling.
It doesn't surprise me that a game like RDR, that doesn't have to adhere to a certain brand of (very lame) satire and humor, is more free to explore a deeper story, whereas GTAV is trapped in that limbo.
As on the nose and obnoxious as Max Payne 3 was, even that one didn't have that weird duality in tone that GTAV has, and Max Payne was another game where they had to adhere to pre-established tropes.
NullPointer
Member
Outside of the idea of having a more diverse workplace (good idea for any company really) I hope Rockstar doesn't take any of Kyle's advice when it comes to gameplay.
I thought the LifeInvader mission was hilarious.
I thought the LifeInvader mission was hilarious.
EricDiesel
Member
Listing reasons why he feels bad for liking Ground Zeroes and Kojima's gross treatment of Paz and Chico not being one of them is disappointing. You lost me on this one, Kyle. I know that would be weird to say about a short game he thinks is worth $30, but how is this not at the top of any thoughtful person's list? You're okay with that but not paying a lot for a demo?
Agree completely.
More women in the industry should be almost an imperative but not every games needs a woman touch.
Zomba13
Member
They are video game characters dude. The fucked up things that happen to both of them are because another video game character is a fucked up dude with a hate boner for the player character.
Also Paz tried to kill Big Boss and everyone on Mother Base before soooo... Not much sympathy there from me.
TheUnsunghero26
Member
Animal Crossing voice: What is your skin colour?
Don't know why, but that made me laugh the most.
Don't know why, but that made me laugh the most.
Azure Dream
Member
Coming down on the character designs just feels uncomfortably close to censorship to me, even if you think they're ultimately fap fodder. I realize that Kyle was trying to speak from a technical standpoint, about the proportions of the shoulders compared to the waist, the mannish chins, and such. But still, it just seems like I keep reading the equivalent of, "They drew those breasts TOO large... That's not realistic. It feels silly to have this unrealistically-proportioned character fighting a four-armed Netherworld demon." I'm not sure how adding women to the development team would be a direct fix to the company artists either not being able to use their reference materials properly, or trying to express a particular style and not succeeding at it. Unless you're saying, "If there were more women there, surely they would've spoken up, and gotten those designs changed!" Which, again, starts to feel like censorship.
kingofthedead45
Member
Guys, that song at the end. ;_;
Wouldn't any criticism of any game be considered "censorship" following that reasoning? I don't think that term is appropriate given the context.
nobody's gonna take away your not-quite-hentai games, dude
also this
we criticize games for anything and everything here on the internet, except when it's time to talk about this kind of thing, and suddenly NO WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF THE ART
Yeah it did, there is even a challenge to close all the pop-up windows in 10 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=316ITLMHNVs#t=33m26s
omg, that is awful haha
Azure Dream
Member
But it's not technical criticism, at least the type of complaint I'm talking about. It's not "you tried to draw a box and you drew a cylinder." It becomes "I don't like the idea you expressed there. You can't make things like that." And yes, their bosses can tell them exactly what they can and can't draw or make for a commercial product, and there are other rules they have to follow. But when these products make it to market, they've cleared those hurdles. Some bosses or creatives may change their minds when they see the reactions, but at the time, they approved them.
So when someone says, "If there were more women around, that probably wouldn't have looked like that." I have to wonder exactly why, and what that means, assuming the artist(s) remained the same. (If you change who's in the roles as artist, of course that would change the end result.) Looking at it as "people with individual opinions" is one thing. Saying that "adding women will fix it" is somewhat putting too much of an expectation on women in the industry or trying to enter it, that they're this "voice of reason that will fix the ills of game development", reign in those designers who "don't know what a woman looks like," and so forth. (And who's to say a woman couldn't be behind some bad or fap fodder designs? I've seen the Tumblrs, I cannot unsee them.) Women in the industry shouldn't be forced into that role. They should be able to express their opinion as an equal, not as a nanny. But from there, their opinions shouldn't uniquely override their fellow coworkers, specifically because of a gender divide, or assumptions that because they belong to a particular gender, they're more "grounded" on the subject. Their individual opinion should be as important as everyone else's. But they shouldn't be expected to "fix" things as a group. Especially if the subject is a matter of taste or opinion, not necessarily something to be technically corrected.
I realize I'm opening up a huge can of worms here, I probably shouldn't pursue this topic much more tonight. But I think either Bosman's assertion wouldn't work as he suggested it would, or it would work, but for the wrong reasons.
And this is exactly why I need to carry on with this no longer. Because when someone tries to express a different opinion on the subject, it becomes "YOU JUST WANT YOUR NOT-QUITE-HENTAI GAMES, DUDE" and other mockery. And I know the cheap shots and insults would just keep adding up the more I continued.
You know what, Azure Dream?
You're right. I'm sorry.
I was annoyed by some other threads and I took it out on you. It was a cheap shot, and I apologize.
Azure Dream
Member
I'm surprised, but thank you, I appreciate that.
I don't think he or really anyone has suggested what they can't do, just what he thinks they should do. That isn't any different than thinking they should have inverted the controls, had less quicktime events, used fewer of a particular enemy type, etc. He's identified various problems in a few games and suggests more females on the dev team to increase the diversity of perspectives could be a way to address those shortcomings. I cannot think of any distinguishing feature that would separate these specific criticisms from any other beyond his suggested solution.
You can certainly disagree with either the problems he identified or the solution he suggests (or both), but calling it censorship doesn't give the viewpoint the credit it deserves and really only serves to stifle discussion.
Kyle hasn't been in top form lately. I know you'll bounce back buddy, you've done it before!
Hiring women is fine, it should even be encouraged to a degree, but there should never be a "goal" of a 50/50 gender split or anything else. Who ever is qualified should get the job. Things in this society would go a lot smoother if it were more meritocratic.
Hiring women is fine, it should even be encouraged to a degree, but there should never be a "goal" of a 50/50 gender split or anything else. Who ever is qualified should get the job. Things in this society would go a lot smoother if it were more meritocratic.
but isn't that exactly what it is? at least how he's describing it. it would be, "you tried to draw a woman but you drew a man with tits"
TheShampion
Member
I agree that games need to be more diverse, but I am not sure hiring women will necessarily solve all that. If they just make games that don't try to hit this macho threshold that many high budget games seem to shoot for for some reason, then maybe the games will be better and the hiring situation will solve itself. If hiring more women solves that like it did for Nintendo, then more women the better, I say.
Honestly, I just want more big budget games to surprise and delight me again, and not have to suffer through so much bullshit. I guess I'll go back to indie games and portable games (and the occasional console game) until that happens.
Honestly, I just want more big budget games to surprise and delight me again, and not have to suffer through so much bullshit. I guess I'll go back to indie games and portable games (and the occasional console game) until that happens.
Meh, just cause you disagree with him doesn't mean he isn't doing a good job. He presented his opinion pretty well, I think. People are just used to agreeing 100% with everything he says.
You don't need a female modeler to have better female models in MK, Kyle even says as much, however he also mentions that having [more] female developers, could change the atmosphere in the workplace and influence the product.
Whether you think that's good or bad is up to you obviously, because if you think MK's female characters are the best thing ever, of course you don't want that to change.
This video, however, starts with the assumption that you're going to hear Kyle Bosman's opinion on the matter, and the implication is that he doesn't like that design, so he suggests ways to change it.
--
One the one hand, i personally think MK has "ugly" and "crass" as its very own visual design philosophy, however i think some proper ugly female characters would fit very well in the game (so, not trying to do a porn babe and failing, but deliberately trying to do an ugly lady).
Though you could argue they had Sheeva, on that front, but it's kind of debatable, because they tried to make her somewhat porn-y.
Anyway, things like Wonder Woman's model, i think, are not even a design choice, they are just bad modeling, the 3d equivalent of:
This is a huge can of worm, but things are not always as simple as meritocracy.
There are several sectors (this also changes from country to country obviously) where you are simply at a disadvantage in the hiring process (all qualifications being equal) based on your gender.
Whether you think that's good or bad is up to you obviously, because if you think MK's female characters are the best thing ever, of course you don't want that to change.
This video, however, starts with the assumption that you're going to hear Kyle Bosman's opinion on the matter, and the implication is that he doesn't like that design, so he suggests ways to change it.
--
One the one hand, i personally think MK has "ugly" and "crass" as its very own visual design philosophy, however i think some proper ugly female characters would fit very well in the game (so, not trying to do a porn babe and failing, but deliberately trying to do an ugly lady).
Though you could argue they had Sheeva, on that front, but it's kind of debatable, because they tried to make her somewhat porn-y.
Anyway, things like Wonder Woman's model, i think, are not even a design choice, they are just bad modeling, the 3d equivalent of:
This is a huge can of worm, but things are not always as simple as meritocracy.
There are several sectors (this also changes from country to country obviously) where you are simply at a disadvantage in the hiring process (all qualifications being equal) based on your gender.