Sleeplessnights
Banned
Mercedes have really outpaced some teams when it came to car development, compared to last year when they fell behind in the second half.
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The Formula 1 2012 Season |OT2| WHY AREN'T YOU WATCHING THIS SEASON?!
- Thread starter Leunam
- Start date
Button and Perez in the same team would be too awesome.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
There's been such a huge shift in budget, resources and personnel since the 2009 car was designed that it can barely be considered the same team, really.
Funny, last night I was thinking exactly the opposite. Same old Mercedes, failing to keep up with the developments of the big three. Let's face it, have they had anywhere near the race pace to win a race recently?
Eh true, but still.
I don't think it's much to do with Lewis' 'brand' at all. I'll throw my own 2p in too why not. I think Jenson's performance last year did a lot to increase the team's perception of him and his long term vision within the team and he's capitalised on that ever since. Lewis found solace in other things and partially self destructed.
F1 is a sport but it's also about being adept at playing the politics well, at the end of the day you're dealing with people and those people around you will naturally respond better to certain things than others. I think Jenson is more aware of how to work that at Mclaren. I wouldn't say Lewis is that kind of character inherently and neither was Fernando at one point however Fernando learned how to manipulate those two worlds (his needs vs that of the team) and how to deal with each. I think Lewis hasn't quite learned how to do that yet, either out of sheer ethics or ignorance. Anthony was talking about loyalty being important in this sport etc but I'm not so sure the team view him as an asset so much as someone they need space from now. Even if Lewis wanted to be loyal and stay would it be worth it if the waters are murky.?
History has a way of repeating itself and it might do it again here. Fernando had to leave Mclaren, Kimi had to leave Ferrari, Senna, prost the list goes on. Of course it could all be bullshit but I think it was telling that they didn't get it sorted during the summer break. If Lewis did leave though and somehow won the Wdc thereby taking the no1 to another team it would be interesting. I don't think Mercedes will be able to provide a car that gets him more race wins or a world champion ship until maybe 2014 beyond but I think if he won it this year he'd be content with that. Though it will test his relationship with Rosberg because either way he will compromise his position within the team.
F1 is a sport but it's also about being adept at playing the politics well, at the end of the day you're dealing with people and those people around you will naturally respond better to certain things than others. I think Jenson is more aware of how to work that at Mclaren. I wouldn't say Lewis is that kind of character inherently and neither was Fernando at one point however Fernando learned how to manipulate those two worlds (his needs vs that of the team) and how to deal with each. I think Lewis hasn't quite learned how to do that yet, either out of sheer ethics or ignorance. Anthony was talking about loyalty being important in this sport etc but I'm not so sure the team view him as an asset so much as someone they need space from now. Even if Lewis wanted to be loyal and stay would it be worth it if the waters are murky.?
History has a way of repeating itself and it might do it again here. Fernando had to leave Mclaren, Kimi had to leave Ferrari, Senna, prost the list goes on. Of course it could all be bullshit but I think it was telling that they didn't get it sorted during the summer break. If Lewis did leave though and somehow won the Wdc thereby taking the no1 to another team it would be interesting. I don't think Mercedes will be able to provide a car that gets him more race wins or a world champion ship until maybe 2014 beyond but I think if he won it this year he'd be content with that. Though it will test his relationship with Rosberg because either way he will compromise his position within the team.
I didn't really care before but I really hope the new upgrades can make the Mercedes a winner again and inspire some confidence for next season.
Lewis in a competitive Mercedes is what i'd prefer at this point. I just don't want to see Lewis' talent wasting away in a shit car.
All the recent champions scattered around in different teams would make for an increidbly exciting championship too.
Lewis in a competitive Mercedes is what i'd prefer at this point. I just don't want to see Lewis' talent wasting away in a shit car.
All the recent champions scattered around in different teams would make for an increidbly exciting championship too.
Well he's had enough practise wasting away at Mclaren for a while. Thing is I think the age of Mclaren might be here pretty soon if it isn't already (would be hilarious if they dominate for the rest of the season only to fall way back next year). I'm not sure how I feel about the whole situation it just seems fucked up all round, and Mclaren could end up coming out again as not being able to handle an equal driver system. I do think Mercedes have put themselves in a reasonable position to come back at the big guys though, it's just weather it clicks into place or not. I agree with the idea of an even spread of world champions though it would be exciting.
I think it must be quite a tough decision for him. Next year the rules are not so different that it is going to shake anything up. So whomever ends this season the strongest is going to be strong next year unless they try something radically different and fuck it up. But with it being the last year on these rules I doubt that will happen.
With the 2014 rules however it could really turn things on it's head. McLaren could win the WDC this year, and again next year and then be nowhere in 2014 with the new engines and rules for other things. With all the money pouring in to Caterham they could be nearer the top, or Sauber could continue their current form and find something that the traditional teams miss.
Brawn was right when he said that being in a works team is going to have it's advantages. Providing the Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes engines are all solid and reliable, being in the works teams (RB, Merc and Ferrari) that will get more attention, more data, more everything, is going to be a benefit.
The issue of course is that RB have a line up for next year already. Massa is almost certainly on the way out but the past with Alonso is going to hamper Hamilton driving there, despite them both waxing lyrical about each other in the last 12 months and Hamilton praising the Monza crowd despite them being atrocious. For a minute or two he was making me think he was going to Ferrari with some of his words and stuff, but they don't generally want two number 1 drivers, despite how strong they would be as a team.
So the only option is Mercedes. No other team is big enough or has the backing (provided they don't go the rhythm method and pull out). With all of that being in question it's not much of a bargaining chip against what he can get from McLaren.
They have had poor starts to the season for a few years but they have always got a winning car by the end of the season. This year they had it right from the start, had it not been for a series of operational issues I have no doubt that Hamilton would be 40 odd points ahead on the WDC. All of that seems to have sorted itself out though. They are consistently brilliant on the pit stops, the general cockups have stopped. And he wants that McLaren F1 from Dennis.
If I were Hamilton I'd be wondering if they can carry this good start, this strong car, and everything else over to next season. All that weighed against a Mercedes team who have struggled for several years since winning both championships because they caught everyone else out with a DDD and won enough points to hold them off for the rest of the year.
I don't think I'd want to lock down anything more than 2 years though. That'll put him one year into the new rules and engine formula so if McLaren end up with a lemon he can jump ship.
With the 2014 rules however it could really turn things on it's head. McLaren could win the WDC this year, and again next year and then be nowhere in 2014 with the new engines and rules for other things. With all the money pouring in to Caterham they could be nearer the top, or Sauber could continue their current form and find something that the traditional teams miss.
Brawn was right when he said that being in a works team is going to have it's advantages. Providing the Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes engines are all solid and reliable, being in the works teams (RB, Merc and Ferrari) that will get more attention, more data, more everything, is going to be a benefit.
The issue of course is that RB have a line up for next year already. Massa is almost certainly on the way out but the past with Alonso is going to hamper Hamilton driving there, despite them both waxing lyrical about each other in the last 12 months and Hamilton praising the Monza crowd despite them being atrocious. For a minute or two he was making me think he was going to Ferrari with some of his words and stuff, but they don't generally want two number 1 drivers, despite how strong they would be as a team.
So the only option is Mercedes. No other team is big enough or has the backing (provided they don't go the rhythm method and pull out). With all of that being in question it's not much of a bargaining chip against what he can get from McLaren.
They have had poor starts to the season for a few years but they have always got a winning car by the end of the season. This year they had it right from the start, had it not been for a series of operational issues I have no doubt that Hamilton would be 40 odd points ahead on the WDC. All of that seems to have sorted itself out though. They are consistently brilliant on the pit stops, the general cockups have stopped. And he wants that McLaren F1 from Dennis.
If I were Hamilton I'd be wondering if they can carry this good start, this strong car, and everything else over to next season. All that weighed against a Mercedes team who have struggled for several years since winning both championships because they caught everyone else out with a DDD and won enough points to hold them off for the rest of the year.
I don't think I'd want to lock down anything more than 2 years though. That'll put him one year into the new rules and engine formula so if McLaren end up with a lemon he can jump ship.
Red Bull is not a works team.
That argument could be used for anyone on the WDC fight. If Ferrari had delivered a decent car from the beginning/had a decent strategist, Alonso would be 80pts ahead. If Red Bull was reliable with KERS and alternator, Vettel/Webber would be ahead by 40pts. If McLaren didn't screw Button's setup he would be 20pts ahead. If Lotus had someone making smart decisions on the pitwall, Raikkonen would be 30pts ahead.
McLaren has made mistakes like everyone else. In fact, even Hamilton made mistakes. If he wasn't so agressive vs. Maldonado at Valencia he would have 15pts more than he has today.
Of course it's too early for Perez. It's not like he just beated both Ferrari's on their home race, right?
It's a case of planning for the future. Hamilton wants to emulate what Schumacher and Alonso did to Ferrari.
That crash was 80% Maldonado's fault.
That crash was 80% Maldonado's fault.
Psychotext
Member
They're the Renault works team in everything but name. But yeah, to be accurate, they're not.
brotkasten
Member
Wouldn't that be Lotus?
Psychotext
Member
No, Red Bull and Renault are co-developing various aspects of the car (engine, kers, gearbox, alternator, aero etc). Don't forget about the Infiniti aspect of it.
Not to mention that they're collaborating on the 2014 V6.
brotkasten
Member
Interesting. I thought the former Renault team would have a bigger role in that.
Do you have link for that? First time I heard about it.
brotkasten
Member
From September last year:
Full article: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/why-red-bull-and-renault-are-getting-closer/
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Thanks. That really makes it sound like a close relationship. Reminds me of the actual Mercedes-McLaren instead of "take your engines and gearbox and deal with it" approach that other teams have with their engine providers.
Wasn't Massa at Sauber for three years before he was picked up by Ferrari?
Yup, and he had a testing year at Ferrari(I think).
brotkasten
Member
Actually, it was Sauber's Monisha Kaltenborn who sparked the discussion this time. Di Montezemolo is basically just agreeing with her.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102457
But LdM confirmed that Perez definitely won't drive for Ferrari next year and seeing how he wants Vettel more than anyone else on the grid, it could make it all a bit weird. If Vettel joins Ferrari in 2014, there won't be any place for Perez until Fernando leaves in 2015 or 2016.
brotkasten
Member
Yeah, I wouldn't expect him to retire before then.
mclaren777
Member
brotkasten
Member
Quite.
This was form Horner 12 months ago
It's as close to a works team as it's going to get after Renault moved their eggs out of the Renault team.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
That's only one of the things that make a lot of people hate him. If he didn't join Ferrari I don't think he would have a lot of supporters
If you weren't an Alonso fan to begin with, a couple of monkey acts wouldn't change your mind about his personality
To me he will always be the cry baby who called F1 not a sport, he's still the guy who used stolen information from Ferrari, still the guy who blackmailed his boss to give him the No. 1 status, still the guy who cheated to win in Singapore
EDIT: but to be fair, since he joined Ferrari, I didn't see any silly stuff coming out of him, but that's maybe because he's treated like a princess over there so he has nothing to complain about
Goldrusher
Member
The only race driver present at the Young Driver Tests.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
If that's not passion, I don't know what is.
Damn. He saved many lives, a great man indeed.
What a shame. RIP
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Was he the doctor that wanted Senna to retire and go fishing with him?
Great part of Senna, if so. Seemed like a cool guy.
Edit: The answer is in the original post. I can't read!
Great part of Senna, if so. Seemed like a cool guy.
Edit: The answer is in the original post. I can't read!
Business
Member
Class.
Eyeing up his car for next year.
Sleeplessnights
Banned
I can see him running a team.
brotkasten
Member
I think it was Haug who said that he could see Schumacher in a team leading role. It would definitely be interesting. Even though we've seen some great drivers fail at the role as team principles.
JehutyRunner
Banned
What I'm about to watch.
For Sid. RIP.
For Sid. RIP.
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