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[Zeknurn]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/30078157

Briton Max Chilton, who drove for Marussia this season before they went into administration, has emerged as a surprise candidate to race the second Caterham in Abu Dhabi this weekend.

Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen says he has struggled with the tyre construction this year after being out-performed by team-mate Fernando Alonso, but would like to stay at the Italian team beyond 2015.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Chilton and Kobayashi would be an almost unstoppable force of all-star proportions.

 

[Addnan]

That Honda engine sure does sound good...

To be fair that was recorded with a shit phone and digital zoom somehow manages to mess with the audio.

 

[Nicktendo86]

To be fair that was recorded with a shit phone and digital zoom somehow manages to mess with the audio.

True but it still sounded sweet!

 

[kharma45]

Senna did some pretty shitty stuff that tends to be glossed over since anyone that criticizes him now would be crucified. It would be different if he was still alive.

Agreed. I feel his death has made him immune to a lot of criticism and instead we have a romanticised vision of him.

 

[Psychotext]

Starting up an old Arrow F1 car: http://wtf1.co.uk/old-arrows-f1-start-up/

Doesn't look so healthy.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

I think that misrepresents what actually went down in that debate. The teams didn't want double points for -anything- at all. Bernie was pushing hard for double points towards the end of the season for his own reasons. While it probably can't be proven, Abu Dhabi wanting to have more of a spotlight on their race could be a big factor in that. In the end the choice was "double points for the last 3 races" or "double points for the last race". I don't think Bernie was willing to compromise with "no double points at all it's stupid go home" even though that was the right choice. So both sides ended up with the option that made no one happy. That's how I saw it.

Maybe Bernie promised some of the extra cash, if there was any, to the teams. They should've chose the 3 races. At the end, without the teams consent, nothing would've gone through. So I still blame the teams.

Bernie is all about the money, so I kinda don't blame him lol.. ah well.. hopefull no damage will be done by this when all is done next Sunday

That Honda engine sure does sound good...

I had the same thought too, but I hope it's louder

 

[DBT85]

I've a group of friends over on Sunday for the race.

I'm worried Rosberg will win the title.

If Lewis stuffs it into the wall of his own doing then it'd be OK, but I just know it's going to be something out of his control that takes it from him.

On the subject of noise, any excess noise is wasted energy, they'll cut it down. I remember seeing the Audi engine guys talking about that very subject when making their Le Man cars.

 

[Psychotext]

The Audi R18 e-tron quattro is scary quiet when it goes past you. It's like a spaceship.

 

[LicenceToK1ll]

Starting up an old Arrow F1 car: http://wtf1.co.uk/old-arrows-f1-start-up/

Doesn't look so healthy.

Are they trying to commit suicide or haven't they ever heard of Carbon Monoxide poisoning?

 

[DD]

Formula 1 can learn from simplicity of 1990s cars - Karun Chandhok

 

[hadareud]

The 1990's cars could also have learned from the simplicity of the 1960's cars.

Smartphone manufacturers could also learn from the simplicity of 1920's gramophones.

 

[Nicktendo86]

True but I have a soft spot for the 90's cars, I think they were the best looking and when I think of an F1 car they are the ones that pop into my head.

 

[Ark]

Bring back the low & wide rear wings and I'll be all over it.

 

[frontieruk]

True but I have a soft spot for the 90's cars, I think they were the best looking and when I think of an F1 car they are the ones that pop into my head.

Which is what 30 somethings + will be saying in twenty years time about today's cars, it's a cyclic thing, and as long as the sport runs this will happen.

 

[hadareud]

True but I have a soft spot for the 90's cars, I think they were the best looking and when I think of an F1 car they are the ones that pop into my head.

Yeah I liked them too, but the world moves on.

The whole point about F1 is that it's at the bleeding edge of technology. Without that it wouldn't be what it is.

The whole "but that's when it was real racing" thing is nothing but nostalgia. For some it stopped being "real racing" when they brought in semi-automatic gear boxes, for others it stopped being "real racing" when they went away from slicks, then DRS and KERS and a 100 things before and between that.

There has to be a way for smaller teams to exist in the present day, while operating at the bleeding edge of technology and engineering. If there isn't or if no one is willing to find a way for that to happen, then they might as well give up and stop F1.

 

[nature boy]

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/the-small-teams-get-tough/

The small teams get tough

The small Formula 1 teams have written to Bernie Ecclestone asking him to reconsider his position regarding the distribution of prize money and bringing to light some interesting figures about what it costs to run an F1 team today. The letter, signed by Bob Fernley of Force India, was sent to Ecclestone, the other F1 teams, the FIA and to CVC Capital Partners, the owners of the Formula One group. It says that Lotus, Sauber and Force India F1 “clearly see the direction of Formula 1 towards customer cars/super GP2″ and says that “it is equally clear that the Strategy Group has no intention at all to reduce costs”.

In order to highlight the scale of the problem the letter says that they received money from FOM this year ranging from $52 million to $64 million.

“The costs of the power unit together with the installation costs amount on average amongst us three to $43 million. This clearly shows that 70-80 percent of the FOM income has to be allocated to the engine.”

The letter goes on to say that “unlike manufacturer-owned teams, our core business is Formula 1. Yet, we have no choice but to spend most of our income on the engine, and the remaining 30 percent is by far not enough to construct, enter and run a team over a 20-race season. The generation of further funds though sponsorship is achievable but we all recognise that other global sporting competitions are chasing the same sponsors which are at lower levels than even two years ago. It is challenging when the Commercial Rights Holder of F1 is also competing against the teams”.

The teams say that they have been focussing on the reduction of the costs but noted that allegations that they are not running good businesses are unjustified as all three teams have recorded podium finishes in recent times.

The letter says that Red Bull and Ferrari are receiving in the region of $160 million each and says that the 2014 Prize Fund will be around $835 million but around $412 million is going to the four teams in the Strategy Group.

“The current skewed position is a direct result of the massive increase of costs and the lack of willingness to reduce the costs.”

The letter goes on to say that “we cannot accept the current distribution of funds in view of the massive increase of expenses. We understand that the distribution is based on our bilateral agreements. It is, however, known to us all under which circumstances we signed these deals. The shareholder’s focus during the negotiations was on securing the co-operation with big teams in view of the planned IPO; we were effectively given no room for negotiation. Furthermore, the impact of providing various share options to key people and entities may well have clouded their judgement in respect of creating what is effectively a questionable cartel comprising, the Commercial Rights Holder, Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren and Williams, controlling both the governance of Formula 1 and apparently, the distribution of FOM funds.

“Whilst the FIA are involved in The Strategy Group, they are impotent to act, as demonstrated in the recent cost control process which saw the FIA issue a media statement confirming their intent to impose cost controls and their subsequent climb down when over ruled by the CRH, Red Bull, Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and Williams.”

The teams say that F1 remains “one of the strongest global sporting platforms. However, circumstances within and around Formula 1 have changed, and our collective inability to react is damaging the sport. Pursuing a direction towards third /customer cars is creating fears. Such a move, representing a misuse of power, will not only change the DNA of Formula 1 but also damage the value of our enterprises and lead to job losses. A two-tier system can only be considered a short-sighted vision. It is evident that the current developments are dramatically reducing the value of Formula 1 and massively undermining its reputation as a sport.”

The letter adds that “our teams have, like the others, a clear intention to continue as constructors in Formula 1, however, unlike the manufacturer teams, who could exit on the whim of a Board decision, Lotus, Sauber and Force India F1 are bound to the sport as it is their only business focus. The issues we are facing are related to financial matters which can only be resolved by financial measures. In our common interest and for a sustainable future of the sport, we request you, together with the other stakeholders, to implement a more equitable distribution.”

The teams have requested a meeting with Ecclestone over the Abu Dhabi weekend.

Since it's a personal blog, I posted the entire post.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/the-small-teams-get-tough/



Since it's a personal blog, I posted the entire post.

Nothing new here.. It's those stupid engines costs and the failure of (whomever is in charge of F1, or should be) to enforce engine costs caps.

They're too busy trying to ban tyre warmers to cut costs.. pfft

 

[Ark]

On the one hand I agree with the notion that the smaller teams need to live to their means, but really it's disgusting that these entities that exist solely to compete in F1 are getting next to nothing when compared to the multi-billion dollar global corporations.

 

[nature boy]

If you read Joe's next post, you'll see it might become a BIG deal - if the EU commission gets involved - so the more publicity this gets, it's probably worse for Bernie and CVC.

And it wouldn't surprise me if it got that ugly.

 

[Ark]

At this point I really don't think CVC cares in the slightest. If they refused to drop Bernie during the trial, there's no way there're going to drop him now.

 

[kiyomi]

Bernie is making CVC a shit ton of money, they don't give a fuck.

 

[nature boy]

Well the IPO if off (again) and if the EU start investigating I could see Bernie being dropped for good.

CVC can't be happy about what has happened in the last couple of weeks.

And remember F1 was punished by the EU commission before.

 

[DD]

Bring back the low & wide rear wings and I'll be all over it.

Yep, the rear wings today are fugly, but people say that it was almost impossible to get close to the car in front when they used those beautiful wide wings.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Yep, the rear wings today are fugly, but people say that it was almost impossible to get close to the car in front when they used those beautiful wide wings.

I still believe that 2008 was showing huge potential for mid-field teams and especially for a third big team to shuffle things up. With BMW winning a race and being almost a podium regular breaking the Ferrari-Macca dominance.

If things were kept with few tweaks rather than a major change in the rules. If you check the results of that year, I think there was more than 5 race winners and so many podium finishers plus almost all the teams have made it to the points and a big chunk reached the podium.

you're talking about a year where rules have been stable for at least 4 years, and competition was rising between teams, which proves that stability in the rules gives the chance for smaller teams to catch up, and it achieves economy of scale which eventually reduces the costs, and inevitably increases the level of competitiveness in smaller teams

I remember having a nice statistics about 2008 proving that it was a fantastic year in all aspects. I believe that only DRS and maybe KERS should've been the only additions to that formula, if that happened we would've had a completely different sport today

I'll try to review the results when I get the time to provide some interesting facts about that year

 

[Krilekk]

Hamilton is the better driver this season but I hope Rosberg wins the title so those idiotic double points backfire on Bernie and we will not see them again.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

I'll try to review the results when I get the time to provide some interesting facts about that year

OK, this didn't take as long as I thought. Here's what I came up with from 2008 season.

Teams 11, and 10 from 5th race onwards after Super Aguri's demise
Drivers 22, 20 from the 5th race

Statistics:

Drivers:

- Winning drivers: 7 (35%)
- Podium reaching drivers: 14 (70%)
- Points scorers: 18 (90%), and if the new points system was introduced, 19 drivers would've scored points (95%)

Teams:

- Race winning teams: 5 (50%)
- Podium Reaching Teams: 9 (90%)
- Points Scoring Teams: 9 (90%), and under the new scoring system it would've been 10 teams (that's all the teams scoring points, how awesome is that!!!!) (100%)


I still believe that we should've stuck to 2008's formula with few tweaks to solve the overtaking issue

 

[Zeknurn]

Will Buxton is posting his personal recollections with both drivers and why he thinks they both deserve the championship.

Here's the post about Rosberg. I highly recommend reading the whole thing.

 

[nature boy]

Might be worth watching the press conferences this GP:

Thursday presser:
Fernando Alonso
Jenson Button
Lewis Hamilton
Nico Hulkenberg
Nico Rosberg
Sebastian Vettel

Friday mega-presser:
Robert Fernley
Christian Horner
Monisha Kaltenborn
Gerard Lopez
Marco Mattiacci
Claire Williams
Toto Wolff

 

[DBT85]

Hamilton is the better driver this season but I hope Rosberg wins the title so those idiotic double points backfire on Bernie and we will not see them again.

Double points are almost certainly out next year anyway. None of the teams like it and even Bernie has said it'll go.

Will Buxton is posting his personal recollections with both drivers and why he thinks they both deserve the championship.

Here's the post about Rosberg. I highly recommend reading the whole thing.

Thanks for that. Great reading.

Interesting that the impression some have on him now is no different to the one that people had of him 10 years ago.

If he wins and double points had nothing to do with it I'll be cool with it. I think Hamilton would be a more deserving champion on the basis of race wins and the actual head to head racing they've done, but points settle it, same as any other season.

If it does just come down to the bad luck of Hamilton in DNFs and having to start from 9, the the back and the pits, then that's just one more thing to hopefully drive Lewis on next year.

 

[Adam Scott Aukerman]

Will Buxton is posting his personal recollections with both drivers and why he thinks they both deserve the championship.

Here's the post about Rosberg. I highly recommend reading the whole thing.

Personally I have no preference as to who wins the championship, but I do think a Rosberg win would be the more interesting outcome.

I fear that if Hamilton wins it could be that little extra push he needs to pull clear away from Rosberg next year, as Vettel did Webber. And if the 2015 championship just comes down to the mercedes again, that could produce a pretty dull year.

 

[mrklaw]

Will Buxton is posting his personal recollections with both drivers and why he thinks they both deserve the championship.

Here's the post about Rosberg. I highly recommend reading the whole thing.

bollocks. First, double points only 'doesn't matter' if you're assuming a 1-2 finish (perhaps fair enough but in F1 you never know). the current 17 point gap with normal points would have given Hamilton much more of a cushion, allowing him to finish around 5th? That would let him deal with issues eg tyres going off or the williams pair hounding him. With double points there is no comfort window any more, even though he has earned it.

Also, to suggest that Rosberg deserves the win because of stuff he did back with Schumacher, or because he is a good qualifier seems odd. He hasn't delivered in the races, and the only reason Hamilton hasn't already wrapped things up is due to reliability from the team with his car, and arguably two actions from Rosberg in Monaco and Belgium. He simply hasn't delivered in the races this year and doesn't deserve to win the championship.

 

[DD]

OK, this didn't take as long as I thought. Here's what I came up with from 2008 season.

Teams 11, and 10 from 5th race onwards after Super Aguri's demise
Drivers 22, 20 from the 5th race

Statistics:

Drivers:

- Winning drivers: 7 (35%)
- Podium reaching drivers: 14 (70%)
- Points scorers: 18 (90%), and if the new points system was introduced, 19 drivers would've scored points (95%)

Teams:

- Race winning teams: 5 (50%)
- Podium Reaching Teams: 9 (90%)
- Points Scoring Teams: 9 (90%), and under the new scoring system it would've been 10 teams (that's all the teams scoring points, how awesome is that!!!!) (100%)


I still believe that we should've stuck to 2008's formula with few tweaks to solve the overtaking issue

Interesting, but the number of overtakes was pretty low by that time: http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

EDIT: speaking of rear wings and the possibility of running close to the car in front, I think that the monkey seat should be banned. They obliged the teams to put the exhausts pointing to the back of the cars, probably to increase the air flow and reduce the drag that creates turbulence for the car coming behind, which is cool. But what is the use for it if the monkey seat makes the gases to go up above the car behind?

 

[Juicy Bob]

The 2008 cars were my favourite in terms of how aggressive they looked, but I prefer this current era where there's less dependency on aero grip and more mechanical grip available instead.

If we could just change the rear wings and keep the current performance of the cars as they are, I'd be perfectly happy to keep things that way.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Interesting, but the number of overtakes was pretty low by that time: http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

EDIT: speaking of rear wings and the possibility of running close to the car in front, I think that the monkey seat should be banned. They obliged the teams to put the exhausts pointing to the back of the cars, probably to increase the air flow and reduce the drag that creates turbulence for the car coming behind, which is cool. But what is the use for it if the monkey seat makes the gases to go up above the car behind?

Overtaking used to be the only problem for F1, so that could've been fixed or enhanced with minor changes not a complete overhaul of the rules

As the saying goes, if it's not broke, don't fix it!

 

[DD]

The 2008 cars were my favourite in terms of how aggressive they looked, but I prefer this current era where there's less dependency on aero grip and more mechanical grip available instead.

If we could just change the rear wings and keep the current performance of the cars as they are, I'd be perfectly happy to keep things that way.

It probably needs to be higher like they are today to to help the car behind, and if they go wider, they should go to a slimmer design, which, honestly, would look just as lame as they do today.

Example, Monza 2007:

But I'd be okay with something a little more bulkier like Spa 2008 ;D

 

[Hammer24]

Nothing new here.. It's those stupid engines costs and the failure of (whomever is in charge of F1, or should be) to enforce engine costs caps.

They're too busy trying to ban tyre warmers to cut costs.. pfft

Don´t let facts get in the way of a readily made up mind, right?
- engines are actually cheaper for the smaller teams than they have been
- read again the sums put into that blogpost:
---> $835 mil to be distributed
---> of those, $412 mil go to the 4 teams in the strat group
---> of those, $ 160 mil go to RBR and FER
If you don´t see the problem clearly shown here, I can´t help anymore.

Edit: For clarification, there are some small errors in this blog post, but the numbers are close enough. One bigger error is, there are actually 6 teams in the strat group: RBR, FER, MER, MCL, WIL and whoever is next in WDC standings.

 

[DD]

Overtaking used to be the only problem for F1, so that could've been fixed or enhanced with minor changes not a complete overhaul of the rules

As the saying goes, if it's not broke, don't fix it!

Exhausts facing backwards, Kers and DRS would probably help. But still, there were too many wings to mess with the air flow...

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Don´t let facts get in the way of a readily made up mind, right?
- engines are actually cheaper for the smaller teams than they have been
- read again the sums put into that blogpost:
---> $835 mil to be distributed
---> of those, $412 mil go to the 4 teams in the strat group
---> of those, $ 160 mil go to RBR and FER
If you don´t see the problem clearly shown here, I can´t help anymore.

Edit: For clarification, there are some small errors in this blog post, but the numbers are close enough. One bigger error is, there are actually 6 teams in the strat group: RBR, FER, MER, MCL, WIL and whoever is next in WDC standings.

Engines are cheaper than the V8's? First time I ever hear that. The "letter" from smaller teams have highlighted the engines costs as the biggest and they almost blame it on the engines for their financial issues

I'm not ignoring any facts. I'm saying teams were better off previously, and we had less pay drivers. I'm sure so many reasons contributed to that including of course the financial crisis, but I'm sure the rising costs of F1 which is an undeniable fact, is one of the main reasons. Colour it the way you want but all the engine manufacturers have said that the new engines have raised the costs. That being said, I could be wrong, but with all due respect, I'd like to see a proof that today's engines cost the teams less..

 

[nature boy]

Don´t let facts get in the way of a readily made up mind, right?
- engines are actually cheaper for the smaller teams than they have been
- read again the sums put into that blogpost:
---> $835 mil to be distributed
---> of those, $412 mil go to the 4 teams in the strat group
---> of those, $ 160 mil go to RBR and FER
If you don´t see the problem clearly shown here, I can´t help anymore.

Edit: For clarification, there are some small errors in this blog post, but the numbers are close enough. One bigger error is, there are actually 6 teams in the strat group: RBR, FER, MER, MCL, WIL and whoever is next in WDC standings.

Uh no.

 

[theignoramus]

I wonder why teams keep explicitly naming the engine costs as a problem then, if they are "cheaper" than they were in the v8 era.

 

[DD]

Dutch outlet is reporting that Sauber signed Nasr contract because they had a breach in Sutil's and van der Garde's contracts, where they agreed to look for new sponsors for the team, which never happened for both drivers.

 

[Hammer24]

Engines are cheaper than the V8's? First time I ever hear that.

We have to make a distinction here. In the V8 era teams paid for the "naked" engines. Now they pay service contracts. They are a bit more expensive, in net $ - but when you break the costs down to what's included and teams had to buy/do on their own, the mere engines are actually cheaper. Especially considering, that teams need to buy fewer of them now. Please remember, how many of those V8 they had to buy a year!

The "letter" from smaller teams have highlighted the engines costs as the biggest

Yes they are. But the problem is how few funds these teams get.

and they almost blame it on the engines for their financial issues

No, they don´t. That was your implication.

 

[nature boy]

It's not a "bit" more, it's a lot more - the R&D necessary to integrate the PU isn't free either.

Manufactures passed off the cost of their PU R&D to the smaller teams and will continue to do so.

 

[Scottify]

Interesting little article, RE: distribution of funds to smaller teams. GP Update

The quote that surprised me most here. Was Bernie always against these new V6 power units?

Ecclestone would, however, sympathise with the teams over the new turbocharged V6 power units, which have led to a dramatic hike in costs.

"I agree with them completely, 100 per cent. They have my support," said Ecclestone. "I never, ever, ever thought this power unit was what we wanted in Formula 1. It's done nothing for the industry.

"Don't get me wrong, it's an incredible piece of engineering – to get that amount of power out of that amount of fuel is incredible. But no road car could ever use the same system."

 

[hadareud]

Bernie the engineer.

The woolly haired wanker.

 

[nature boy]

Interesting little article, RE: distribution of funds to smaller teams. GP Update

The quote that surprised me most here. Was Bernie always against these new V6 power units?

Yes (starts from 2:30)

 

[Ark]

McLaren just tweeted that they aren't going to announce their driver lineup until after December 1st, "all eyes on Abu Dhabi". Even as a fan I feel really dicked around by McLaren, I can't imagine how frustrating its been for Magnussen and Button.

 

[Massa]

Dutch outlet is reporting that Sauber signed Nasr contract because they had a breach in Sutil's and van der Garde's contracts, where they agreed to look for new sponsors for the team, which never happened for both drivers.

That's the new performance clause in the era of pay drivers.

smh

 

[Dilly]

Remember when F1 had no pay drivers?

I sure don't.