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[tHoMNZ]

Sutil's incident didn't need a safety car, his car was nearly out of the way under double yellows. Just pure bad luck or driver error for Jules, I hope he pulls through but those photos look nasty

It did though, mainly because the incident was caused by aqua-planing

 

[Dead Man]

You do realize that this happens literally a minimum of 20 times every race weekend.

Effectively this would result in races that are more than 40% safety car.

Currently safety cars are being called in if they can't get the stranded car out of the way in a fast or safe manner. Sutil's car was almost behind the barriers within 90 seconds with double waved yellow flags...

I agree when it is dry, but in the rain I think the outsides of corners with grass should always trigger a safety car if there is a car being recovered there. Well, if they would be able to restart after a safety car, but too often it just never gets restarted.

 

[dakun]

It did though, mainly because the incident was caused by aqua-planing

yeah that's really the crucial point. Under dry conditions where the accident was caused because of a collision or mistake you could argue that the risk of such a follow up accident is really low. But with wet conditions like today we have seen often times that even under safety car there is nothing that stops a car from spinning out under aqua-planing.
At least though under a safety car the speed would be slow enough that a potential accident would probably not end up in a wreck like that.

 

[Juicy Bob]

yeah that's really the crucial point. Under dry conditions where the accident was caused because of a collision or mistake you could argue that the risk of such a follow up accident is really low. But with wet conditions like today we have seen often times that even under safety car there is nothing that stops a car from spinning out under aqua-planing.
At least though under a safety car the speed would be slow enough that a potential accident would probably not end up in a wreck like that.

Exactly this.

 

[Ding-Ding]

It did though, mainly because the incident was caused by aqua-planing

I think that is what alot of people are missing here. As soon as one car aqua-plans, the chances are that other cars will do the same at the exact same spot.

Safety car should really be deployed as soon as one car goes in conditions such as today's

 

[NHale]

No comment from Charlie Whiting why he didn't deploy the safety car?

He's probably on his private jet plane to Sochi to get his bag of money coming from Putin. Why would he care?

He didn't care enough to start the race a couple of hours earlier, did he?

Or did he stop the race when conditions were as bad that the helicopter couldn't fly? He didn't either despite the regulations saying the race can only continue if the helicopter can fly to the hospital and reach it in less than 20 minutes.

/FIA Safety ad

 

[itsgreen]

He's probably on his private jet plane to Sochi to get his bag of money coming from Putin. Why would he care?

He didn't care enough to start the race a couple of hours earlier, did he?

Or did he stop the race when conditions were as bad that the helicopter couldn't fly? He didn't either despite the regulations saying the race can only continue if the helicopter can fly to the hospital and reach it in less than 20 minutes.

/FIA Safety ad

He has nothing to do where races are held.

The FIA offered the option to the promotor (Honda) and/or the commercial rights holder and one/both declined.

As far as currently known, the helicopter could have flown him to the hospital, but they made the decision it was best to go by ambulance. That could have been because of air pressure, that could have been because he needed addition assistance that could be better provided in an ambulance, it could be that the best suited hospital didn't have an heli pad.

 

[Elvin Atombender]

Or did he stop the race when conditions were as bad that the helicopter couldn't fly? He didn't either despite the regulations saying the race can only continue if the helicopter can fly to the hospital and reach it in less than 20 minutes.

I thought it did actually fly but they decided to use the ambulance?

I just hope that no news is good news.

 

[dakun]

all things considered one has to say that whoever was in charge of this race (FIA, Bernie, race organizers i don't know) failed the fans, the drivers and Formula 1 as a whole today.

The fans because they were forced to sit out there in the rain waiting for 40 minutes after the race should've started until we had a proper race. To a smaller extent also the fans in other continents who woke up early in the morning to watch this race.

The drivers because in the beginning and end of the race they were forced to drive under aqua planning and bad visibility that was avoidable.

And Formula 1 because instead of talking about how close the championship is, we are talking about an injured driver whose accident could've been avoided from the very beginning.

There was really never a case where a race under difficult and dangerous conditions was predicted as accurate as this, and was as avoidable as today. The FIA or whoever decided not to change the date/time for this race thought they could dodge a bullet and please whoever they needed to please at the same time. They failed.

 

[DrM]

Helicopter could fly in those conditions . They were even prepping it (heard just before podium celebrations), but looks like doctors decided that the best thing would be road transport - you can do much more patient prep work in ambulance compared to helicopter

 

[nature boy]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/518706409752391683

#F1 Japanese police is at the track. Confiscating whats left from Bianchis car. No news about his condition yet. #JapaneseGP

 

[Dead Man]

all things considered one has to say that whoever was in charge of this race (FIA, Bernie, race organizers i don't know) failed the fans, the drivers and Formula 1 as a whole today.

The fans because they were forced to sit out there in the rain waiting for 40 minutes after the race should've started until we had a proper race. To a smaller extent also the fans in other continents who woke up early in the morning to watch this race.

The drivers because in the beginning and end of the race they were forced to drive under aqua planning and bad visibility that was avoidable.

And Formula 1 because instead of talking about how close the championship is, we are talking about an injured driver whose accident could've been avoided from the very beginning.

There was really never a case where a race under difficult and dangerous conditions was predicted as accurate as this, and was as avoidable as today.

I think moving the race was the better option today, but given the conditions that actually occurred, there was nothing wrong with going racing today.

 

[itsgreen]

We must not forget that accidents do happen.

I think at this moment the FIA did the right things with the information they had. It is really fucking easy saying they had to do something different after the fact.

But let's not make too harsh judgements about who is to blame until more is known.

The corner was double yellow and all other cars were able to make it through a full lap.

The FIA's actions so far seemed appropriate to me.

I think though this is the last time we have seen mobile cranes like that.

Also, I am pretty sure that if we go back in the previous topic, or perhaps this one, we'll find tons of posts (including probably mine) complaining that they call SC's for nothing, keeping them out too long, postponing races unnecessarily, if they are aqua planning they should drive slower etc etc. So it is fucking easy to make decisions in hindsight, but if nothing happens people bitch and moan about FIA being FIA.

 

[hadareud]

I think moving the race was the better option today, but given the conditions that actually occurred, there was nothing wrong with going racing today.

Exactly. The conditions were perfectly fine to race after a slight delay in the beginning.

I think the desperation to find someone culpable for what happened isn't helpful in the least.

There's a difference between saying shit happens and not going overboard, btw. Just wanted to point that out, in case my posts come across that way.

 

[kharma45]

I think moving the race was the better option today, but given the conditions that actually occurred, there was nothing wrong with going racing today.

Yep. What happened with Jules was a freak accident.

 

[Breakage]

Skipped the race today, but just woke up to this news. I hope Jules recovers.

 

[Cyborgmatt]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/518706409752391683

I can't help but feel this means the worst then.

 

[itsgreen]

I can't help but feel this means the worst then.

Me too.. Imola...

 

[Breakage]

I can't help but feel this means the worst then.

It could just be standard protocol following a serious accident.

 

[Lucius86]

It could just be standard protocol following a serious accident.

Indeed. However easy it is, we cannot jump to conclusions.

 

[Xando]

Me too.. Imola...

My first thought aswell

 

[itsgreen]

SBS Radio Sport @SBSRadioSport
#Breaking: Jules #Bianchi's father comfirm on #FrenchTv that his son is currently being operated on and in a critical state. #f1 #sbsf1

 

[Ding-Ding]

Exactly. The conditions were perfectly fine to race after a slight delay in the beginning.

I think the desperation to find someone culpable for what happened isn't helpful in the least.

There's a difference between saying shit happens and not going overboard, btw. Just wanted to point that out, in case my posts come across that way.

The point is though that the conditions which the race started under the safety car was similar to the conditions when Sutil went off. So if the SC was the right call to start the race, why did it take two cars to aqua-plan before it was deployed?

Its is even more bemusing when you are talking about a narrow track such as Suzuka, a car already in stranded and the majority of the field yet to pit for full wets

 

[dakun]

SBS Radio Sport @SBSRadioSport
#Breaking: Jules #Bianchi's father comfirm on #FrenchTv that his son is currently being operated on and in a critical state. #f1 #sbsf1

in line with what i expected. unless something dramatic happens i doubt we'll hear much news for the coming days in terms of long term recovery.

Somehow this reminds me of Schumacher.

 

[Massiv]

Not a good sign:
https://twitter.com/reacap/status/518712060264579072

 

[JardeL]

From Reddit;

http://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/artikkeli/bianchin-auto-meni-suoraan-traktorin-alle/4384050

"In our feed it looked like the car went straight under [the tractor]. Double yellows, so more caution should have been used there, but [he went] straight under the tractor front first. A sum of all bad coincidences," Salo told the MTV Sport.
Bianchi was taken into the hospital unconscious.
"We don't really know more than just he got a hard knock on the head and has been taken into brain scan. We don't really know more. The hospital will tell more when they know something", Salo continued.

In Finnish:

Meidän kuvat näytti siltä, että se meni suoraan keula edellä sinne alle. Tuplakeltaiset, eli olisi pitänyt olla vähän varovaisempi siinä, mutta aivan suoraan keula edellä traktorin alle. Kaikkien huonojen yhteensattumien summa, Salo kertoi MTV Sportille.
Bianchi vietiin ambulanssilla tajuttomana sairaalaan.
Ei mekään tiedetä oikeastaan mitään muuta kuin että kova isku päähän ja hänet on viety aivokuvaukseen. Ei tiedetä oikeastaan mitään muuta. Sairaalasta ilmoitetaan kun siellä tiedetään jotain, Salo sanoi.

 

[Juicy Bob]

All we can do is wait until an official announcement is made.

But remember, Felipe Massa and Michael Schumacher were both in "critical condition" after their accidents and both have survived.

 

[Mohonky]

Theres really no point in laying any potential blame at anyone, whether the race should have started earlier etc.

As the drivers said, it was too wet at the start but they didnt have any problems when the race resumed and felt comfortable in the conditions. They called double waved yellows when Sutil went off as is the norm while the recovery vehicle was out. There wasnt anything unusual in how they went about the recovery effort, its been done over so many races over so many years that had Bianchi not gone off we wouldnt have even batted an eyelid.

In hindsight, maybe this is something that should have been changed; if any recovery vehicle is in a run off zone with any chance another car could impact it, bring out the safety car first. Its easy to see now but its been the norm for some time now. The recovery vehicle was barely 3-4m from being behind a barrier, on top of this, race directors like Charlie Whiting dont have 100% view of the conditions or the positions of the track, they can only see whats on their screen or what information is passed down the line and they have to make a decision on the spot and in this instance everything was in alignment for the worst.

Maybe we'll see new regulations introduced because of this, as past accidents and near misses have shaped the procedures and safety measures we have today, but in this case I dont see anyone did anything extraordinary that contributed to this accident.

 

[hadareud]

The point is though that the conditions which the race started under the safety car was similar to the conditions when Sutil went off. So if the SC was the right call to start the race, why did it take two cars to aqua-plan before it was deployed?

Its is even more bemusing when you are talking about a narrow track such as Suzuka, a car already in stranded and the majority of the field yet to pit for full wets

They weren't the same conditions at all. After Bianchi went off people were still putting intermediates on, the start of the race was full wets and then some.

You can't stop a race every time there's a bit of rain, otherwise they'll have to exclusively drive in the desert or indoors.

 

[itsgreen]

Theres really no point in laying any potential blame at anyone, whether the race should have started earlier etc.

As the drivers said, it was too wet at the start but they didnt have any problems when the race resumed and felt comfortable in the conditions. They called double waved yellows when Sutil went off as is the norm while the recovery vehicle was out. There wasnt anything unusual in how they went about the recovery effort, its been done over so many races over so many years that had Bianchi not gone off we wouldnt have even batted an eyelid.

In hindsight, maybe this is something that should have been changed; if any recovery vehicle is in a run off zone with any chance another car could impact it, bring out the safety car first. Its easy to see now but its been the norm for some time now. The recovery vehicle was barely 3-4m from being behind a barrier, on top of this, race directors like Charlie Whiting dont have 100% view of the conditions or the positions of the track, they can only see whats on their screen or what information is passed down the line and they have to make a decision on the spot and in this instance everything was in alignment for the worst.

Maybe we'll see new regulations introduced because of this, as past accidents and near misses have shaped the procedures and safety measures we have today, but in this case I dont see anyone did anything extraordinary that contributed to this accident.

I agree.

Have other drivers than Massa described the conditions at the end as undrivable? I saw some getting new inters instead of full wets...

 

[Mastah]

SBS Radio Sport @SBSRadioSport
#Breaking: Jules #Bianchi's father comfirm on #FrenchTv that his son is currently being operated on and in a critical state. #f1 #sbsf1

Well, that's good news, he's still alive. Let's hope for the best outcome and at least the same recovery like Schumacher has.

 

[mrklaw]

How different are the regulations for marshals/tractors/etc for wet conditions vs dry? Or is there no difference, and it is up to someones discretion what happens?

I wonder if there is something they could do to minimise the risk. Eg 'armour plating' the sides of recovery vehicles so they don't present a run-under risk if another driver comes off?

 

[dakun]

I agree.

Have other drivers than Massa described the conditions at the end as undrivable? I saw some getting new inters instead of full wets...

i think Sutil did suggest something along the line. At least that the race should've gone straight to Safety Car as soon as he spun.

He also said the drivers weren't asked if they wanted to change the date/time of the race.

 

[mrklaw]

all things considered one has to say that whoever was in charge of this race (FIA, Bernie, race organizers i don't know) failed the fans, the drivers and Formula 1 as a whole today.

The fans because they were forced to sit out there in the rain waiting for 40 minutes after the race should've started until we had a proper race. To a smaller extent also the fans in other continents who woke up early in the morning to watch this race.

The drivers because in the beginning and end of the race they were forced to drive under aqua planning and bad visibility that was avoidable.

And Formula 1 because instead of talking about how close the championship is, we are talking about an injured driver whose accident could've been avoided from the very beginning.

There was really never a case where a race under difficult and dangerous conditions was predicted as accurate as this, and was as avoidable as today. The FIA or whoever decided not to change the date/time for this race thought they could dodge a bullet and please whoever they needed to please at the same time. They failed.

If they had started a couple of hours earlier they would also have failed the fans because many would not have been at the circuit.

Putting aside the accident for a moment, it didn't seem anythingn unusual than other wet races. I do wonder why even bother having full wet tyres if they cause so much spray that they can only be used under a safety car?

 

[Ding-Ding]

They weren't the same conditions at all. After Bianchi went off people were still putting intermediates on, the start of the race was full wets and then some.

You can't stop a race every time there's a bit of rain, otherwise they'll have to exclusively drive in the desert or indoors.

The rain was as bad at that point as at the start. The only question was the track surface. Even then, it certainly was only going to get worse.

As for intermediates, the only cars doing that were the cars with excellent aero packages. Lesser cars are in much greater risk.

If it was at a track with large run off area's, where the driver can just rejoin the race, then wet weather racing is no problem. This though is Suzuka, a very narrow track were aqua-planing will most likely end in a wall.

 

[NHale]

Not a good sign:
https://twitter.com/reacap/status/518712060264579072

He was also at Kubica's hospital after his rally crash. So don't take any conclusions from this.

i think Sutil did suggest something along the line. At least that the race should've gone straight to Safety Car as soon as he spun.

He also said the drivers weren't asked if they wanted to change the date/time of the race.

Sutil also mentioned that it was much darker so lower visibility.

 

[Ark]

Just caught up watching the race. Was a fantastic race really, but awful news about Bianchi. Hope he pulls through with a 100% recovery

No blame to be laid, FIA did the right thing given the circumstances, a freak accident absolutely. That said, we have seen many times in the last couple of years (and even this season) where recovery vehicles have been in potentially dangerous positions.

 

[McNum]

There'll probably be some regulations aftermath on this. Padded recovery vehicles or maybe more stringent requirements for the safe removal of cars from the track. And maybe in the long tern, a look at protecting the driver's head even further.

But that's in the future. I just hope Bianchi makes it out as okay as possible from this.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Is it time to consider Code 60 for Formula 1?

 

[itsgreen]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
The FIA says Bianchi has suffered 'severe' head injury. Due to be moved to intensive care after surgery.







So it is at least encouraging they are looking forward

 

[hadareud]

The rain was as bad at that point as at the start. The only question was the track surface. Even then, it certainly was only going to get worse.

As for intermediates, the only cars doing that were the cars with excellent aero packages. Lesser cars are in much greater risk.

If it was at a track with large run off area's, where the driver can just rejoin the race, then wet weather racing is no problem. This though is Suzuka, a very narrow track were aqua-planing will most likely end in a wall.

I just don't think that that's the case. Nobody at all said that the rain was similarly strong to the beginning, apart from you. The drivers said it was fine, Massa excluded.

And from what we saw on TV, it didn't look anywhere near as heavy as it was at the start.

 

[Juicy Bob]

At least our worst fears have not been confirmed.

 

[Ark]

Really, it once again comes down to the only chink in F1's safety armour - open cockpits.

It seems to happen every other year now, Massa in 2009, Schumacher & Liuzzi in 2010, Grosjean & Alonso in 2012, the Marussia test driver the other year (granted, it wasn't under race conditions).

I'm still undecided whether or not the FIA should introduce closed cockpits, but it's definitely going to be a point of discussion in the coming days.

 

[McNum]

Is it time to consider Code 60 for Formula 1?

Had to Google that. A track-wide 60 km/h limiter for exceptional incidents where a recovery vehicle is in a dangerous area? So, a Safety Car period, except without a Safety Car? Interesting idea, at least. Sort of a middle ground.

Jon Noble @NobleF1
The FIA says Bianchi has suffered 'severe' head injury. Due to be moved to intensive care after surgery.

So it is at least encouraging they are looking forward

Yeah. It's not exactly good news, but it's encouraging. Better than we feared, at least.

 

[itsgreen]

Is it time to consider Code 60 for Formula 1?

Perhaps a code 150, but 60kph is actually much more dangerous because the tyres will cool way too much down.

 

[kharma45]

Perhaps a code 150, but 60kph is actually much more dangerous because the tyres will cool way too much down.

Yeah cold tyres and brakes would be dangerous.

 

[evanswolves]

https://twitter.com/JennieGow/status/518727888992862209

 

[dakun]

It would be interesting to see the state of the helmet. Probably horrible too, but i wonder if it cracked or anything since unlike Massa this doesn't sound like a object hitting the visor kind of thing.

 

[itsgreen]

Jules Bianchi crash: F1 drivers say conditions weren't too bad
By Ben Anderson Sunday, October 5th 2014, 11:39 GMT

Japanese GP 2014

Formula 1 drivers reckon conditions in the closing stages of the Japanese Grand Prix were not particularly bad, and that Jules Bianchi was simply unlucky to have a serious crash.

The Suzuka F1 race was stopped with nine laps to run after Bianchi's Marussia struck a vehicle that was recovering Adrian Sutil's crashed Sauber before the Degner turns.

The French driver was taken unconscious to hospital following the accident, which occurred as rain intensified and light faded.

UPDATE: Bianchi suffered severe head injury

Williams driver Valtteri Bottas said the conditions were "on the limit" for stopping the race, but not particularly bad compared to previous wet races.

"I'm not the one to judge if it was good to go anymore or not - the whole race was tough, especially the beginning and end of the race," Bottas said.

"I think there have been more difficult track conditions than this. It's just a difficult track in the wet.

"Until then, there was nothing special happening. I think it was just a really, really unlucky situation."

Fellow Finn Kimi Raikkonen agreed conditions were "tricky", but not unusually so.

"Was it safe? Is it safe ever? You cannot say," Raikkonen said. "Sometimes it doesn't matter.

"At the beginning of the race behind the safety car we drive 100kph and you could aquaplane, so even if you slow down you might get into trouble.

"If there's too much water you can go off - simple as that."

Race winner Lewis Hamilton also reckoned he had raced in worse conditions than those seen in the closing stages of Sunday's race.

"They weren't really that bad - I've had much worse races in terms of aquaplaning," Hamilton said.

"It started really bad and got quite intense, and then when we went back out [after the first red flag early in the race] it was good.

"Towards the end it started to rain a bit more, [but] it wasn't causing me any problems particularly.

Jules Bianchi, Japanese GP 2014
"It's so easy to lose temperature in these tyres if you slow down a bit, and then it's really difficult."

World champion Sebastian Vettel said Bianchi had been unfortunate to go off at one of the most difficult places on the circuit in the wet.

"It was very unlucky timing and an unlucky position to lose the car," he said.

"It's one of the most tricky places; you are still cornering and you pick up speed.

"In these conditions with more water the car is very nervous and it's very easy to do a mistake."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116182

 

[Mokubba]

Sky Sports F1 ‏@SkySportsF1 1m1 minute ago

For those expecting to watch #JapaneseGP highlights on #SkyF1: all programming has been suspended as we await news on Bianchi's condition.

I was ready to watch the highlights and was wondering why the programming schedule changed.