Support NeoGAF

[DBT85]

The point is that Lewis has more wins this year alone than Nico has this year, or last year, or any other year combined.

Highlighting that Lewis is the better driver for anyone still not painfully aware.

If Lewis loses this season on double points there's going to be a shitstorm.

Hopefully the result of the final race is such that double points or not, it didn't matter.

If Bernie wants double points then have it for 5 top races each year. Spa, Monza, Silverstone, Interlagos, Monaco. The grand slam as it were.

 

[Ark]

To be fair, Bernie wanted the final three races to be double points but the FIA or the teams disagreed and they opted for just one.

 

[Hammer24]

How sure can you actually be about the information you have?

Go through my post history in the F1 threads, I don´t think there has been a single wrong info.
And regarding MCL, the infos are not exactly from friends of Ron, I deem them very reliable.
Honda is behind schedule, so is the car, and at MCL there is an ownership/control struggle going on behind the scenes. Not a mixture that bodes well.

 

[marvelharvey]

Speaking of McLaren, you can walk around their technology centre on Street View.

 

[DBT85]

With a little luck all that will combine with Williams having a good car to secure them a decent spot again next season!

 

[Zeknurn]

I'm not sure what the point of that picture is. This Mercedes is Nico's first competitive (or rather dominant) car and it's also the first time he's in a championship fight.

Pretty much.

There should be another line beneath saying "Number of seasons in a competitive car: #"

@pitlanetalk: Fernando Alonso to Auto Hebdo: "We are nowhere. Not in the drivers standings or the constructors standings. I have to be honest...
...Williams are better than us and McLaren would be too if the season was longer. There is no specific goal we can fight for."


@pitlanetalk: Italian media reporting Marussia could withdraw from the sport as well because Ferrari stopped giving them 2015 engine data. #F1 #Formula1
With Caterham's exit looming, Marussia and Sauber rumored to leave as well, three car teams are now becoming a real possibility. #F1

@pitlanetalk: Rumors emerging that Caterham F1 have closed their doors for good. Waiting for an official announcement but little chance for their survival

The future of F1 is looking grim.

 

[Dead Man]

The point is that Lewis has more wins this year alone than Nico has this year, or last year, or any other year combined.

Highlighting that Lewis is the better driver for anyone still not painfully aware.

If Lewis loses this season on double points there's going to be a shitstorm.

Hopefully the result of the final race is such that double points or not, it didn't matter.

If Bernie wants double points then have it for 5 top races each year. Spa, Monza, Silverstone, Interlagos, Monaco. The grand slam as it were.

No, all it highlights is that this is the first time Nico has been in a competitive car.

 

[Shaneus]

It's crazy to think that we could have a situation where one driver has 11 wins, yet loses to a rival with 5.

If you're talking about Ricciardo, then that's a good kind of crazy! But yeah, it's pretty mental (though not impossible... I know a V8 Supercars championship has been won with one or two weekend victories or something).

 

[ConstructMe]

Please answer- considering f1 is just motor racing, why is it always so political and talks of split ups and closures and shit every few years? aka the other series proposal from 2010, now maybe 3 teams leaving, why?

 

[Dead Man]

Please answer- considering f1 is just motor racing, why is it always so political and talks of split ups and closures and shit every few years? aka the other series proposal from 2010, now maybe 3 teams leaving, why?

Because this silly fuckwit thinks the sport is his own personal bank.

 

[Ark]

Please answer- considering f1 is just motor racing, why is it always so political and talks of split ups and closures and shit every few years? aka the other series proposal from 2010, now maybe 3 teams leaving, why?

Money.

It'd be a real shame if Sauber left. They're the oldest privateer team other than Williams, I think.

 

[Zeknurn]

@thejudge13: #CaterhamF1 staff getting emails this morning telling them Administrators have shut them down and no need to come in. #F1
@thejudge13: Staff that did decide to go to work are at gates and not being allowed in. #CaterhamF1 #F1

.

 

[Aiii]

Please answer- considering f1 is just motor racing, why is it always so political and talks of split ups and closures and shit every few years? aka the other series proposal from 2010, now maybe 3 teams leaving, why?

They are businesses, it's all politics all the time.

And 3 teams are leaving because they're run by dodgy people who use dodgy money to finance their business. In Caterham's case they sold the company to a dodgy investment group, but didn't actually sell them the company (as in: the shares never changed to the new owners and were still in the old names), so the new financiers were actually financing a company they didn't own for three months and are now basically telling the old owners "fuck you, we're done" and that's that.

Honestly, most teams are pretty stable, there have always been teams with barely any cash that survive a few years by the skin of their teeth and are then either bought by actual companies with money to run a team or go bankrupt. There's teams like Lola and Simtek that just plain old go bankrupt (mid-season) and are never heard from again and there's teams like Minardi (Torro Rosso) and Stewart (Ford/Jaguar, Red Bull Racing) that end up getting bought out by big companies and survive like that.

There's solid privateers too, of course, like Sauber and Williams, that have proper partnerships, good sponsor deals and know how to run a solid team without getting involved with dodgy partners that don't end well, but most of the privateers end up dead after a few years of existence because they either can't find those partners or choose not to. A lot of this is on Bernie, for not enforcing more strict criteria before granting starting licenses for teams, but to be fair you can't expect the guy to analyse entire company structures (not sure that is legally possible either).

 

[duckroll]

Caterham seems like a total trainwreck. Not sure why shit is so messed up there, but even the sale of the team seems to have been done in bad faith. What a joke. Poor Kobayashi. :/

 

[marvelharvey]

I know a V8 Supercars championship has been won with one or two weekend victories or something).

It's happened in F1 too. Mike Hawthorn won the championship with only a single victory 1958 and was crowned champion... poor Sterling Moss with his four victories and Tony Brooks with his three.

 

[Aiii]

Speaking of Minardi, whatever happened to Paul Stoddart? I miss the fuck out of that guy.

 

[DBT85]

If you're talking about Ricciardo, then that's a good kind of crazy! But yeah, it's pretty mental (though not impossible... I know a V8 Supercars championship has been won with one or two weekend victories or something).

Pretty sure he means Nico. So far its 9 v 4 and could go to 11 v 5 by the end of the season. If Hamilton wins in the US and Brazil and Nico comes second, Nico could win the Abu Double and if Lewis finishes 6th or below Nico wins the title. If Hamilton finishes 5th then he wins by 1 point.

Hamilton just needs to do what he can in the next 2 races, hope to outscore his team mate as much as possible and pray for no mechanical faults or Loldonados at the Abu Double.

It's happened in F1 too. Mike Hawthorn won the championship with only a single victory 1958 and was crowned champion... poor Sterling Moss with his four victories and Tony Brooks with his three.

And Keke Rosberg only won 1 race in 1982 to win the title!

 

[itsgreen]

Caterham seems like a total trainwreck. Not sure why shit is so messed up there, but even the sale of the team seems to have been done in bad faith. What a joke. Poor Kobayashi. :/

Oh I can answer that. Because Caterham was spending money like an idiot, only had sponsor affiliated with either Tony Fernandes or their drivers...

I suspect that Fernandes basically said to GE, sure we'll buy your engines for Air Asia, you sponsor us for X years. etc etc

I always get a similar crappy bookkeeping-feeling at Force India also. But they have been around for some time now. But wouldn't be surprised if one day out of nothing Mallya drops out, or is forced to drop it because he can't pay the bill anymore. And we all notice how messed up their books are.

 

[Aiii]

Oh I can answer that. Because Caterham was spending money like an idiot, only had sponsor affiliated with either Tony Fernandes or their drivers...

I suspect that Fernandes basically said to GE, sure we'll buy your engines for Air Asia, you sponsor us for X years. etc etc

I always get a similar crappy bookkeeping-feeling at Force India also. But they have been around for some time now. But wouldn't be surprised if one day out of nothing Mallya drops out, or is forced to drop it because he can't pay the bill anymore. And we all notice how messed up their books are.

Yeah, Mallya is so filthy rich they're fine as long as he's around, if he ever leaves or dies or whatever they're screwed.

Is the Mol-family still part owner of the team?

 

[Staab]

That sounds absolutely catastrophic for Caterham, if true.
Goddamn, my little potato Kobayashi

 

[Shaneus]

Pretty sure he means Nico. So far its 9 v 4 and could go to 11 v 5 by the end of the season. If Hamilton wins in the US and Brazil and Nico comes second, Nico could win the Abu Double and if Lewis finishes 6th or below Nico wins the title. If Hamilton finishes 5th then he wins by 1 point.

Hamilton just needs to do what he can in the next 2 races, hope to outscore his team mate as much as possible and pray for no mechanical faults or Loldonados at the Abu Double.

Oh, I know he was. But Danny could still get 5 wins Doubt he could still mathematically make it, but still... 5 wins

 

[theignoramus]

No, all it highlights is that this is the first time Nico has been in a competitive car.

Rosberg has one less DNF than HAM, has never started lower than fourth and he still has four fewer wins than Lewis. The only track where hes bested HAM on race day, both drivers starting 1-2, is Monaco.
Ive been surprised at how fast he is in qualifying though and the fact hes beaten Lewis fair and square multiple times on Saturday. I didnt think he had that in him.

Im not sure what to think about the possibility of double points deciding the championship. It would be a farce no doubt, but you could argue that Rosberg and Ricciardo, the two drivers who could gain the most from that, did serious work to put themselves in a position to reap the benefits of said farce. Nobody gifted them the points they earned before Double Dhabi, they went out and took them with wins and podiums. They still had to put work in to be in a WDC contending position.
Its a weak argument, I know, but its one that will be made should either driver win because of double points.

 

[Staab]

Rosberg has one less DNF than HAM, has never started lower than fourth and he still has four fewer wins than Lewis. The only track where hes bested HAM on race day, both drivers starting 1-2, is Monaco.
Ive been surprised at how fast he is in qualifying though and the fact hes beaten Lewis fair and square multiple times on Saturday. I didnt think he had that in him.

To be fair, Rosberg pretty much gifted two wins to Lewis though.
He has lost his focus a bit in recent races, Lewis clearly has the edge right now.
Earlier in the season though ? They were neck and neck.

 

[theignoramus]

To be fair, Rosberg pretty much gifted two wins to Lewis though.
He has lost his focus a bit in recent races, Lewis clearly has the edge right now.
Earlier in the season though ? They were neck and neck.

Lewis gained the upper hand in Hungary. Even at Spa with Nico taking him out of the race and netting 18 points for himself, psychologically, he didnt look like he had any sort of edge, probably due to the public lashing from his bosses.

 

[hamchan]

No, all it highlights is that this is the first time Nico has been in a competitive car.

Pretty much. While I agree with the sentiment that Hamilton is better than Rosberg it's not a very fair comparison.

 

[DBT85]

Pretty much. While I agree with the sentiment that Hamilton is better than Rosberg it's not a very fair comparison.

Would all time wins v all time wins be fair? At what point is it fair? They are the same age, Nico got a start in F1 before Lewis did but his star never rose high enough. Why did Lewis get picked up by McLaren at a young age yet Nico was left at Williams by all the top teams. Seb v Danny isn't fair, Michael v Nico isn't fair, Button v Kevin isn't fair. Nico v Lewis is almost by definition, fair.

Nico
Races 163 (163 starts)
Championships 0
Wins 7
Podiums 24
Career points 844.5
Pole positions 12
Fastest laps 9

Lewis
Races 145 (145 starts)
Championships 1 (2008)
Wins 31
Podiums 67
Career points 1,393
Pole positions 38
Fastest laps 19

 

[itsgreen]

Yeah, Mallya is so filthy rich they're fine as long as he's around, if he ever leaves or dies or whatever they're screwed.

Is the Mol-family still part owner of the team?

I don't think Mallya is that rich. I always suspect this is the case: If your assets are valued at 1 billion, but your assets have 900 million in debt...

Yeah, Mol family is still for 2-5% owner I believe

 

[ConstructMe]

In 2007, why did mosely etc have such a vendetta against Ron dennis in the 1st place? anyone know? Lol just doing some inter race reading and wondering.

 

[itsgreen]

In 2007, why did mosely etc have such a vendetta against Ron dennis in the 1st place? anyone know? Lol just doing some inter race reading and wondering.

Didn't that have to do with Spygate?

 

[ConstructMe]

Didn't that have to do with Spygate?

Yeah, but why they went so hard at him even tho there was no proof anything was added to the car from it

 

[DBT85]

Yeah, but why they went so hard at him even tho there was no proof anything was added to the car from it

Hardly surprising really, they don't want that kind of stuff going on. Doesn't matter if they gained anything or not.

 

[operon]

Yeah, but why they went so hard at him even tho there was no proof anything was added to the car from it

all I could find is this

Tom Bower’s new book on Bernie Ecclestone shows how his hostility towards Ron Dennis cost McLaren dearly in 2007.

Ecclestone says: “When Flavio [Briatore] stuck a knife in my back, he charmed me and said, ‘It’s good for you to let out some blood.’

“But when Ron puts the knife in, he wants you to know that he’s in charge and he’s killed you.”

It shows how some of F1’s recent scandals were driven by jealousies between Ecclestone, Dennis, Briatore and former FIA president Max Mosley.

During the ‘spygate’ affair in 2007 Fernando Alonso waited until the Hungarian Grand Prix to threaten Dennis by revealing incriminating emails.

But he had already revealed their contents to Briatore two weeks earlier, who in turn had shared the details with Ecclestone and Mosley.

Ecclestone later talked Mosley down from banning McLaren for two years (“bit heavy”, he said) and instead imposing a record $100 million fine. Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”.

Briatore was later embroiled in a cheating scandal but remains a close ally of Ecclestone’s. The pair share an unusual nickname for Lewis Hamilton -‘Jumbo’.

Source http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/02/24/ecclestone-book-reveals-animosity-dennis-cost-mclaren/

 

[duckroll]

Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”

That's the greatest thing I've read all week. Lol.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Go through my post history in the F1 threads, I don´t think there has been a single wrong info.
And regarding MCL, the infos are not exactly from friends of Ron, I deem them very reliable.
Honda is behind schedule, so is the car, and at MCL there is an ownership/control struggle going on behind the scenes. Not a mixture that bodes well.

I hope you're wrong, I really do. I think it is pretty clear that a struggle for the ownership of the team is going on but I don't see how that would affect things too much, budgets and plans are in place it doesn't matter so much which group owns the most shares.

The key for Honda will be to see if they are ready for the test this year rather than Jerez, if they make it to this year's end of season test I feel they will be on track. If not, oh dear.

I believe the car is behind schedule, I would not be surprised either. New people coming in, things take time. Will be interesting to see how development of this year's car keeps pace.

 

[theignoramus]

Would all time wins v all time wins be fair? At what point is it fair? They are the same age, Nico got a start in F1 before Lewis did but his star never rose high enough. Why did Lewis get picked up by McLaren at a young age yet Nico was left at Williams by all the top teams. Seb v Danny isn't fair, Michael v Nico isn't fair, Button v Kevin isn't fair. Nico v Lewis is almost by definition, fair.

Nico
Races 163 (163 starts)
Championships 0
Wins 7
Podiums 24
Career points 844.5
Pole positions 12
Fastest laps 9

Lewis
Races 145 (145 starts)
Championships 1 (2008)
Wins 31
Podiums 67
Career points 1,393
Pole positions 38
Fastest laps 19

Nico's 2006 season with Williams should come with an asterisk. The car was a nightmare of unreliability, he had stupid amount of car failures that season.

Re: Ron Dennis. Its sad watching his evolution over the years. In the 80s and 90s you can see footage of him actually smiling and looking joyful with Ayrton, Mika. The last 10 years hes had this perpetual look of contempt on his face, like absolutely nothing and no one pleases him.
But maybe Id be that way too if I lost prime Kimi and Adrian Newey, and soured my relationships with every one of my drivers.

 

[Hasney]

Nico's 2006 season with Williams should come with an asterisk. The car was a nightmare of unreliability, he had stupid amount of car failures that season.

That was a spectacular season. The only time he got anywhere close to the number of DNFs Nakajima had in a season.

 

[Business]

Would all time wins v all time wins be fair? At what point is it fair? They are the same age, Nico got a start in F1 before Lewis did but his star never rose high enough. Why did Lewis get picked up by McLaren at a young age yet Nico was left at Williams by all the top teams. Seb v Danny isn't fair, Michael v Nico isn't fair, Button v Kevin isn't fair. Nico v Lewis is almost by definition, fair.

Nico
Races 163 (163 starts)
Championships 0
Wins 7
Podiums 24
Career points 844.5
Pole positions 12
Fastest laps 9

Lewis
Races 145 (145 starts)
Championships 1 (2008)
Wins 31
Podiums 67
Career points 1,393
Pole positions 38
Fastest laps 19

The point where it's fair is when both drive the same car. For the rest of the seasons it will never be fair to compare.

 

[DrM]

Mercedes could bring their 2015 front nose for a test on one of upcoming free practices. We will see more and more parts on cars that will be evaluated for upcoming season.

 

[DBT85]

The point where it's fair is when both drive the same car. For the rest of the seasons it will never be fair to compare.

Top top drivers have fairly rarely been in teams with other top drivers. Alonso has spent one season alongside Hamilton and one with Kimi, Vettel never toll Danny, Hamilton has had Alonso then Button, Nico has had an old Schumacher and now Lewis, Button had Lewis, Kimi had Alonso.

We compare these drivers all the time, just like people compare Ronaldo and Messi, or quarterback 1 and quarterback 2. They don't have the same players around them though.

 

[hamchan]

If you want to point out the most obvious fact than Hamilton is a better racer, you can just point out their head to head numbers in Merc which is currently 10 v 6.

Pointing out that Rosberg doesn't have many wins in his career so far just tells us that he's spent the majority of his career driving for mid tier Williams, a developing Mercedes and this is the first time where he's had a car that can consistently dominate.

 

[Aiii]

Top top drivers have fairly rarely been in teams with other top drivers. Alonso has spent one season alongside Hamilton and one with Kimi, Vettel never toll Danny, Hamilton has had Alonso then Button, Nico has had an old Schumacher and now Lewis, Button had Lewis, Kimi had Alonso.

We compare these drivers all the time, just like people compare Ronaldo and Messi, or quarterback 1 and quarterback 2. They don't have the same players around them though.

So if Alonso had been driving Sauber's his entire career we could totally go "Kimi is totally the better driver between him and Alonso, just look at how many wins Kimi has over Alonso?"

 

[Business]

Top top drivers have fairly rarely been in teams with other top drivers. Alonso has spent one season alongside Hamilton and one with Kimi, Vettel never toll Danny, Hamilton has had Alonso then Button, Nico has had an old Schumacher and now Lewis, Button had Lewis, Kimi had Alonso.

We compare these drivers all the time, just like people compare Ronaldo and Messi, or quarterback 1 and quarterback 2. They don't have the same players around them though.

I totally disagree. The only measure we have is the relative performance versus their team mate. And from that we can extrapolate into a sort of best guess. Comparing two drivers in raw numbers absolutely disregarding the car they were driving is useless. The football and american football comparison is not very accurate either.

 

[Krilekk]

The point is that Lewis has more wins this year alone than Nico has this year, or last year, or any other year combined.

Highlighting that Lewis is the better driver for anyone still not painfully aware.

Does it? I remember in this thread people being sure that Webber was the better driver and Vettel just more lucky. So now the number of victories tells the true story, good to know. Hamilton is the better qualifier. That got him the wins.

 

[DBT85]

Oh ok then.

 

[DD]

I hate when we get to this point. =/

 

[Fox Mulder]

The future of F1 is looking grim.

because shit teams may fold?

Haas is going to fill their shoes soon, and I'd rather see three car teams myself anyways.

 

[Goldrusher]

To be fair, Bernie wanted the final three races to be double points but the FIA or the teams disagreed and they opted for just one.

What Bernie really wanted were medals. The driver with the most gold medals (wins) would be crowned champion.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

these are the best drivers currently in f1 - champions who have also beaten their wdc team mate; alonso x kimi, button x villeneuve, hammy hammy x alonso, button


vettel hasn't done shit to prove he's at the same level as these three. if either of the above had his red bull car they would have just as easily dominated in the same fashion, if not more, if kimi beats him next season then he is truly shit and the most undeserved champion off all time.


mclaren better not fuck the jense in favour of that scrub magnussen, i want to see him beat alonso.

 

[dubc35]

Have Marussia confirmed Rossi to debut at the USGP?

A difficult situation with Jules condition but it would seem like they would want to get some publicity

Spoiler

money

by advertising an American driver for the USGP.

 

[Psychotext]

mclaren better not fuck the jense in favour of that scrub magnussen, i want to see him beat alonso.

Alonso will make him look like he's driving a GP2 car.