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[Norwegian Rudo]

Only change that is desperately needed is to change aero so cars can actually catch and pass each other. Having a situation like last race where Lewis in the far faster car had to tell his team that there was no way to get closer to the Ferrari just makes the sport look ridiculous and terrible.

 

[cmr-94]

Re more aggressive cars

Tobias Grüner AMuS ‏@tgruener 1m1 minute ago
Majority of strategy group preferred the Ferrari proposal. Red Bull design apparently was too conservative.

 

[Adam Scott Aukerman]

I get the impression that some of these things have only been proposed now as a future bargaining chip later. I really don't see refuelling returning.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

It's a sad state of affairs when refueling is being touted as an exciting reason to watch F1 again.

 

[DBT85]

Re more aggressive cars

Tobias Grüner AMuS ‏@tgruener 1m1 minute ago
Majority of strategy group preferred the Ferrari proposal. Red Bull design apparently was too conservative.

I'll take that in a gorram heartbeat.

 

[Ty4on]

No, but there was this. Which was the reason the DRS came in in the first place.

I completely forgot about these. They were used by the defender though.

Refuelling would be great to have back really allowed strategy to overcome a lack in speed but if they still have a limit on fuel used we're still going to have taxi racing, just like at the moment where we get a few laps of hard pushing and then fuel saving

There's no limit in tire wear holding them back, but they still try to save them. Linked to fuel use no doubt, but we still see teams opting for the slower strategy and one has to fix all the links.

 

[DBT85]

I completely forgot about these. They were used by the defender though..

Eh?

They were used at every opportunity once the tires had enough grip that the rear wing downforce was no longer required. It was insane how often they were using it, far more than DRS.

EDIT
Tobias Grüner AMuS ‏@tgruener · 16 minHace 16 minutos
#F1 To make engines rev higher, the number of gears will probably reduced from 8 to 6. Increase of fuel flow for more hp was rejected.

So less gears and no more fuel.

Maybe a magic person can tell me how you get 200 more HP from a power unit without using any more peak or overall fuel. The only way I can see it is if they add more battery, and it'd have to be huge.

 

[operon]

Eh?

They were used at every opportunity once the tires had enough grip that the rear wing downforce was no longer required. It was insane how often they were using it, far more than DRS.

with sometimes no hands on the steering

 

[Big Takeover]

I've actually been thinking a lot about refueling because I was really trying to parse what makes some things fail in F1, but succeed in IndyCar.

I know most of you guys don't get to see a whole lot of IndyCar, but there are some interesting similarities and differences.

Similar : two tire compounds
Difference: They only get three sets of softs which means two in Q, one in the race, or one in Q, two in the race. (Quali is essentially the same as F1) That means they never run them until Q. Pace, balance, and deg is a complete surprise. Way better imo.

Similar: mandatory usage of both tire compounds
Difference: They have refueling, and when they stop is dictated by fuel not by tire deg. Coupled with how they handle soft tires, and that means you're stuck with what you've got on the car until the fuel window opens.

It's always hard to get an accurate read on how these things would be in F1 because they spend so much more money on simulations, and all the other resources they have. F1 teams are REALLY good at solving problems.

Another interesting tidbit is IndyCar added about 25% more downforce this year with a complicated front wing amongst other things. It hasn't been a disaster, but the racing has clearly suffered a bit. Simple front wing = best front wing.

-------

I always say this about refueling and safety, but the way some sportscar series handle refueling by making it happen before the tire change is a million times more safe. Why other series do it any other way is beyond me.

 

[Ty4on]

Eh?

They were used at every opportunity once the tires had enough grip that the rear wing downforce was no longer required. It was insane how often they were using it, far more than DRS.

Exactly. The defender wasn't a sitting duck like he usually is with DRS.

Difference: They only get three sets of softs which means two in Q, one in the race, or one in Q, two in the race. (Quali is essentially the same as F1) That means they never run them until Q. Pace, balance, and deg is a complete surprise. Way better imo.

So another 2012?
We shouldn't have to make teams guess how the car will perform IMO.

 

[Ark]

Re more aggressive cars

Tobias Grüner AMuS ‏@tgruener 1m1 minute ago
Majority of strategy group preferred the Ferrari proposal. Red Bull design apparently was too conservative.

I am okay with this.

 

[DBT85]

Exactly. The defender wasn't a sitting duck like he usually is with DRS.

But they were. The only reason there were so many less overtakes than when the DRS was introduced was because McLaren were the only team with the F Duct for a while.

Sauber had one ready for the first race practise but didn't understand it properly, Ferrari had it for testing in China, and Renault by Belgium. McLaren had been designing and testing it probably or 6 months while everyone else was trying to learn on the fly.

 

[Big Takeover]

So another 2012?
We shouldn't have to make teams guess how the car will perform IMO.

Not to that degree! This is just more like "oh, this is a little better/worse than expected for us" It's enough to make things a touch more interesting because no one knows exactly how it's going to work out, but not too much where it becomes a farce à la 2012.

While I agree in principle with you, I just don't think there's enough race-to-race changing variables in today's locked down F1. There are very few surprises for teams or fans.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

That Ferrari picture looks like something I used to get when I got a pack of Hot Wheels as a kid.

As for power output, how do you increase that will keeping the engine the same and not increasing fuel flow rates?

Total and utter stupidity.

Honestly, get back to basics. Get rid of KERS and DRS. There is zero point in either of them.

KERS is used in what? The LaFerrari? A McLaren? How is that helping road users with VW's or Fords or whatever?

DRS is a band aid fix for a regulation loop hole. Get rid of it.

Upgrade the engines and fuel flow and then we don't need that bollocks.

Standardise Front wings or limit the amount of flaps on them and standardise diffusers to try and limit the turbulent air behind cars.

I remember watching as a kid where drivers would hunt other drivers down, creep up behind them and use their slipstream as a catapult to get in front. Bring those days back. People enjoyed the racing, fan numbers were massive, drivers enjoyed the physical driving aspects and being on the limits.

What's so bad about that?

 

[DBT85]

Honestly, get back to basics. Get rid of KERS and DRS. There is zero point in either of them.

KERS is used in what? The LaFerrari? A McLaren? How is that helping road users with VW's or Fords or whatever? /QUOTE]

While I agree with everything else, there is no reason that KERS can't or won't become integrated more into consumer cars. Right now the big players are using it to give huge torque on their supercars.

More and more consumer engines are running turbos as manufacturers look for efficiency gains and of course, all cars still need to brake.

 

[Dilly]

Turbo's and hybrids are the way forward for combustion engines, so don't get rid of KERS.

 

[Tubie]

Re more aggressive cars

Tobias Grüner AMuS ‏@tgruener 1m1 minute ago
Majority of strategy group preferred the Ferrari proposal. Red Bull design apparently was too conservative.

I'm ready for this.

 

[Ty4on]

KERS is used in what? The LaFerrari? A McLaren? How is that helping road users with VW's or Fords or whatever?

Any form of energy recovery. Even non hybrids use it to charge the auxiliary battery.

 

[Ty4on]

But they were. The only reason there were so many less overtakes than when the DRS was introduced was because McLaren were the only team with the F Duct for a while.

Sauber had one ready for the first race practise but didn't understand it properly, Ferrari had it for testing in China, and Renault by Belgium. McLaren had been designing and testing it probably or 6 months while everyone else was trying to learn on the fly.

Then they must have done a lot of overtaking to skew the results so much.
I'm questioning them because they rose 1/3 of the total rise in 2011 so if the rise was mainly due to DRS and the rise in the 2010 season mainly because f-ducts are mini DRS' then those who had f-ducts must have done an awful lot of overtaking the way I see it. Mclaren were leading the first half 1 to 2, but not quite dominating. They did win 5 races with only 1 pole though.

One thing I just noticed is that 2010 went from 10 to 12 teams and while zero teams finished without a point in 2009 there were three who didn't in 2010. Do we know if that chart includes overtaking of backmarkers?

Edit: Sorry for double post.

 

[gutterboy44]

I have zero confidence in any of these changes. In the Ecclestone era, the only thing he has got right to improve the spectacle was the current format of qualifying after the idiotic one car at a time format. The three sessions format works well imo. Pretty much everything else has made this sport slowly more and more shit.

There is never enough foresight in the first place. This always happens. Really obviously shitty and dumb rule changes get put in to place. Everyone knows they are going to suck, except Bernie. Things start to suck, he has to compromise, tings slightly improve until the next wave of garbage regulations that everyone knows is going to suck. This won't end until that bridge troll cunt is being eaten by maggots. I fucking hate that guy for what he has done to F1. I feel like I should just take a break for 5 years and wait till he is dead and see if it gets better. I suspect things are going to become much more dull in F1 in the next 2-3 years before they get better regardless.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Ugh. Return of refuelling is depressing.

I can't wait to see drivers waiting until their rivals pit and then putting in quick laps to pass them after they stop. Thrilling...

 

[Diablo Rosso]

I've always liked the idea of having the Constructor's Championship changed so that in order to score points both cars have to finish.

 

[spuckthew]

There was also Canada 2010 where the Birdgestones caught everyone off-guard when they threw a wobbly. Although I can't speak of facts, if I had to guess I'd say that race had an unusually large number of overtakes.

 

[AndyD]

I've always liked the idea of having the Constructor's Championship changed so that in order to score points both cars have to finish.

I would award bonuses for both finishing, but to require it seems drastic.

 

[NHale]

Ugh. Return of refuelling is depressing.

I can't wait to see drivers waiting until their rivals pit and then putting in quick laps to pass them after they stop. Thrilling...

It's not very different right now considering they just do the other way around. Pit 1 lap earlier to take advantage of fresher tyres and gain position that way. Exactly what Hamilton would have easily done at Barcelona if it wasn't for the rear right tyre problem during the pitstop.

 

[Chris R]

Refueling is back?

YES!

 

[Mastah]

Pastor. Pastor never changes:

https://youtu.be/kcb5a1_GFmo?t=54m42s

And then he runs over one of the mechanics during pit stop:

https://youtu.be/kcb5a1_GFmo?t=1h44s

"Looking at Pastor's season, it's been a disaster" 10 years later and it's still the same

 

[John_B]

No 18-inch wheels?

Can we have refueling without it completely killing the excitement of qualifying? What is the big harm in letting the teams start the cars with the amount of fuel they prefer (or even the tyre compound)?

 

[Adam Scott Aukerman]

I've always liked the idea of having the Constructor's Championship changed so that in order to score points both cars have to finish.

That would inevitably make it hard for the extremely cash-strapped teams to score points, and further incentivise engineers and designers in all teams towards playing it safe to increase reliability. And of course make it even harder for drivers with no prior F1 experience to get drives. What's good about that?

 

[DBT85]

No 18-inch wheels?

Can we have refueling without it completely killing the excitement of qualifying? What is the big harm in letting the teams start the cars with the amount of fuel they prefer (or even the tyre compound)?

I don't see that Quali is changing. Q3 HAS to remain as a running on fumes balls to the wall spectacle.

 

[cmr-94]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wolff-says-formula-1-refuelling-return-will-be-ditched-if-costs-are-too-high

Wolff skeptical

Speaking to the BBC, Wolff said: "Refuelling was banned because of cost and because the pit stops were taking too long.

"But we want to re-explore it and see if we can make pit stops for fuel and tyres happen in the same time it takes to change the tyres now - two to three seconds.

"We have agreed to explore this avenue and the cost involved because it could be spectacular. If it's too expensive, we won't do it."

waaaaaaat

 

[Staab]

The fuck ?
3 seconds to refuel?
Yeah that's not gonna happen !

 

[Addnan]

Unless the fuel comes in a pod that you just insert lol, you are not transferring that much liquid that fast.

 

[frontieruk]

That Ferrari picture looks like something I used to get when I got a pack of Hot Wheels as a kid.

As for power output, how do you increase that will keeping the engine the same and not increasing fuel flow rates?

Total and utter stupidity.

Honestly, get back to basics. Get rid of KERS and DRS. There is zero point in either of them.

KERS is used in what? The LaFerrari? A McLaren? How is that helping road users with VW's or Fords or whatever?

DRS is a band aid fix for a regulation loop hole. Get rid of it.

Upgrade the engines and fuel flow and then we don't need that bollocks.

Standardise Front wings or limit the amount of flaps on them and standardise diffusers to try and limit the turbulent air behind cars.

I remember watching as a kid where drivers would hunt other drivers down, creep up behind them and use their slipstream as a catapult to get in front. Bring those days back. People enjoyed the racing, fan numbers were massive, drivers enjoyed the physical driving aspects and being on the limits.

What's so bad about that?

Honestly, get back to basics. Get rid of KERS and DRS. There is zero point in either of them.

KERS is used in what? The LaFerrari? A McLaren? How is that helping road users with VW's or Fords or whatever? /QUOTE]

While I agree with everything else, there is no reason that KERS can't or won't become integrated more into consumer cars. Right now the big players are using it to give huge torque on their supercars.

More and more consumer engines are running turbos as manufacturers look for efficiency gains and of course, all cars still need to brake.

Turbo's and hybrids are the way forward for combustion engines, so don't get rid of KERS.

Also aren't there cars that alter their aero profile to become more aerodynamic? I'm sure there's a ford that does this by closing the front grill which lowers aero resistance, not the same as DRS but the principle is the same as it reduces drag which improves mileage.

 

[Pimpwerx]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wolff-says-formula-1-refuelling-return-will-be-ditched-if-costs-are-too-high

Wolff skeptical

Speaking to the BBC, Wolff said: "Refuelling was banned because of cost and because the pit stops were taking too long.

"But we want to re-explore it and see if we can make pit stops for fuel and tyres happen in the same time it takes to change the tyres now - two to three seconds.

"We have agreed to explore this avenue and the cost involved because it could be spectacular. If it's too expensive, we won't do it."

waaaaaaat

No bleeping way. Flowing that much fuel is a recipe for disaster. The sport has been better since the refueling ban. There's no need for this other than to let cars lap closer to qualy times in the race. PEACE.

 

[Fox Mulder]

oh shit, I'm so excited by the possibilities of refueling! /s

The problem is with cars that cant race close because of all the aero, nobody wants to see pitstop passes.

 

[Ty4on]

oh shit, I'm so excited by the possibilities of refueling!

The problem is with cars that cant race close because of all the aero, nobody wants to see pitstop passes.

Then let's fix that issue instead of making a new one.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Also aren't there cars that alter their aero profile to become more aerodynamic? I'm sure there's a ford that does this by closing the front grill which lowers aero resistance, not the same as DRS but the principle is the same as it reduces drag which improves mileage.

BMW's generally have that system as standard to help efficency. I know my old 1 series had it anyway.

 

[DBT85]

BMW's generally have that system as standard to help efficency. I know my old 1 series had it anyway.

It's becoming more popular. Again, started with sports cars with rear wings that popped up over certain speeds, but even a Focus now has bits that open and close on the front for better aero.

All of these rule tweaks seem to be completely ignoring trying to get car B closer to car A in the corners though. Well apart from wider tyres which might help a bit.

 

[Ghost]

So Christian Horner married a Spice Girl yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-32760651

 

[DrM]

So Christian Horner married a Spice Girl yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-32760651

Dawww, how cute, my sugar just went over the safe limit

 

[Mastah]

German GP is struggling with poor attendance, meanwhile this is the grid for 24 Hours Nürburgring race:

200 thousand fans at the track.

 

[Roude Leiw]

http://tv.sport1.de/player/player.php?id=s453238

24h of Nürburgring are on. looks awesome.

 

[DrM]

http://tv.sport1.de/player/player.php?id=s453238

24h of Nürburgring are on. looks awesome.

Bitte beachten Sie, dass die Livestreams der Kategorie nur in Deutschland abgerufen werden können. Not working, Germany only.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Bitte beachten Sie, dass die Livestreams der Kategorie nur in Deutschland abgerufen werden können.

ok you can only watch it if you are in Germany.

 

[Mastah]

It's on YT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkYITD0mNEE

 

[Roude Leiw]

pretty awesome race so far.

 

[Zeknurn]

Yeah I've been following it on and off and it has been entertaining.

 

[dalin80]

Poor 85

Such a handsome car.

 

[DrM]

Well, that is something new, calling into pitlane with mobile phone

'Hey, honey, can you call my boss, I do not have his number. Sitting here at the edge of the track, my rear wheel is off'