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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
I could throw out there my silly theory for why Enterprise actually exists in an alternate timeline and why it wouldn't exist as we know it in the JJverse.
Regarding Enterprise as a whole, I actually liked it more than Voyager (actually in general Voyager is, imo, the worst Trek show besides TAS).
sonikokaruto
Banned
Enterprises as to exist on all universes where humans went to space. It could be the starting branching point for space hu-mans.
Remember that the first "alternate universe" occurred when they killed the vulcans that came to earth to say hello to the earthlings.
The Terran universe was created. Right there.
Bring it on.
I'm starting to think that's the case, I have yet to watch a Dax centric episode that has been good.
A few of the earlier ones are quite good, like "Dax" and "Blood Oath." I also liked "Facets" quite a bit.
Just finished watching my S2 TNG Blu-Ray set (PS3 died and I had to wait for a replacement) - well aside from the last episode, I'm debating whether to sit through that one again or not, haha!!
'Q Who?' is still an amazing episode, though it's obvious to see it's a very "proto-borg" concept, which I had forgotten about. No assimilation, and the whole Borg Babies thing was obviously dropped.
The saddest part is that they never really delivered on the whole Guinan/Q thing anywhere in the rest of the series (and only really made Guinan's story and timeline make absolutely no sense later on). The first TNG movie should have been a Guinan/Q movie dammit!! Also, the shots of Whoopi Goldberg looking out the windows of ten-forward near the start of the episode are gorgeous.
'The Emissary' is also amazing. I didn't appreciate it at the time of the original show's run, but the exploration of Klingon culture was definitely a plus on TNG, and Suzie Plakson as K'ehlyr is always great (I loooove her style of line-reading for some reason, it's so natural in a way you never get from even some of even the regular cast, though that may be a product of the way the character was written as well).
Pulaski also becomes much more likeable near the end of the episode, and I think Muldaur's portrayal becomes more relaxed near the end is part of it.
'Q Who?' is still an amazing episode, though it's obvious to see it's a very "proto-borg" concept, which I had forgotten about. No assimilation, and the whole Borg Babies thing was obviously dropped.
The saddest part is that they never really delivered on the whole Guinan/Q thing anywhere in the rest of the series (and only really made Guinan's story and timeline make absolutely no sense later on). The first TNG movie should have been a Guinan/Q movie dammit!! Also, the shots of Whoopi Goldberg looking out the windows of ten-forward near the start of the episode are gorgeous.
'The Emissary' is also amazing. I didn't appreciate it at the time of the original show's run, but the exploration of Klingon culture was definitely a plus on TNG, and Suzie Plakson as K'ehlyr is always great (I loooove her style of line-reading for some reason, it's so natural in a way you never get from even some of even the regular cast, though that may be a product of the way the character was written as well).
Pulaski also becomes much more likeable near the end of the episode, and I think Muldaur's portrayal becomes more relaxed near the end is part of it.
Alright, it's silly and I take a few educated guesses but bear with me:
The "Enterprise" we know isn't the "original" take on the tale of Archer and his crew, it's actually an altered version of that timeline thanks to the events of "Star Trek: First Contact" and thus takes place after Picard and company traveled back in time to stop The Borg - I get this from the "Regeneration" episode where the NX Enterprise crew encounter Borg that survived the events in First Contact.
The events of "First Contact" likely altered the natural progression of Zefram Cochrane's first warp flight, since post-First Contact he was aware of the Enterprise and events of the future. Because of his knowledge of the Enterprise, it's likely that Cochrane himself might have lobbied to have the inaugural NX ship named "Enterprise" instead of whatever name it was originally going to be called.
This would explain why in other previous Trek shows the NX Enterprise is never referenced, or why the diorama of all the ships named Enterprise on board the Enterprise-E doesn't include the NX Enterprise among them - because in the TOS/TNG pre-First Contact timeline the NX Enterprise didn't exist.
Therefore, the events that created the alternate reality in the JJ Abrams movie permanently altered the future. This means that the Enterprise-E no longer goes back in time to stop The Borg and assist Cochrane, which means everything reverts back to its pre-First Contact state.
Thus, the life of Captain Archer reverts back to its pre-First Contact version which means the events in Enterprise don't entirely remain canon.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Enterprise season 4 was the beginning of what the show should have been. The entire season was basically a way of undoing the crap from season 1 - 3, with the Vulcan reformation and the crew's reluctance to use transporters being things that come to mind.
In reply to the post above mine: The NX-01 was mentioned in TNG... sort of... At least by Riker and Troi in the last crappy episode of Enterprise.
In reply to the post above mine: The NX-01 was mentioned in TNG... sort of... At least by Riker and Troi in the last crappy episode of Enterprise.
1) Do it
2) Enterprise gets far too much shit for being the last series on the tail end of a franchise out of gas. While I wouldn't say it's as good as TnG or Deep Space 9, it can hang with the rest of Trek and is undoubtedly better than Voyager in every way shape and form. It's a bit too bad that they fumbled the stupid love triangle and had stupid things like 'Vulcan neuro pressure', otherwise I think it would have been a series without any real missteps. I think the finale seasons were ok, a little bit too much cheap fan wanking in an attempt to completetly turn itself into ToS current edition, but overall it was a solid show from start to finish.
Trip was an idiot yokel and I can never understand anyone that thinks he should have been captain.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Well, it could have been, but there was so much lost potential. The Cardassians were always the bad guys and Bajorans always the good guys. A couple of individual characters nonwithstanding.
Does this make sense? Basically instead of making Cardassians the Nazi-Germany and Bajorians the Jew, they should have made Cardassia Israel and Bajorians Palestinians. Blur the lines a bit and not make everything so simple. Maquis were an attemp in the right direction, but that didn't really go anywhere, and DS9 and Voyager butchered the concept in any case...
Did it
(Scroll up a little)
Hm, very interesting, and probably technically accurate as well. I doubt we'll ever see anyone touch on it, but it's hard to dispute.
It didn't help that once the Dominion was introduced, the Bajorans largely took a backseat. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed a lot of the war stuff but I also missed the political stories of the second season that were often so intriguing.
The Librarian
Banned
There wasn't any lost potential. DS9 was DS9. You're criticizing it for what it wasn't trying to be.
SpoonyBard
Banned
What does that even mean? I was criticizing the show for being shallow. And you are saying that the show was meant to be shallow? The whole premise of the show was to be less black and white that the main Trek shows.
Babylon 5 did much better job in many of the things, for example The Narn started as the tokem aggressive bad guys at the start of the first season, but more we learned about them, the more complex the political situation became.
The Librarian
Banned
You're saying they should've done a Palestine/Israel metaphor when that's clearly what they weren't going for.
You saw the same type of progression with the Cardassians.
I get what you are saying, but I do think it mixed elements of both Nazi/Jews and Israel/Palestine.
However, I think Gul Dukat was the evil one really. I mean hell, you had Kira training Damar and Garak. There was Kira's "father" (the Cadassian one, forget his name, the guy who is dying and confesses everything to her) as well, who spoke out against the standard regime.
It's easy to accept Dukat as the face of the Cardassians as they seem to want to portray him as such, but there's a lot more depth there than you get at first glance.
You also have Sisko who isn't exactly a Star Trek moral character. He's very emotional and capable of 'evil' things, using the same consequentialist rationalization that the Cardassians do. Same with the Bajoran terrorists/freedom fighters.
Sapiens
Member
Enterprise is Star Trek with all the life and colour sucked out of it.
And a shitty Brian Adams song not even written or sung by Brian Adams.
I have to get a video of this sometime but here's my funny Trek story:
When we first got our dog, my wife and I were going through DS9 as she had never seen the full series before. We would watch one or two episodes right before bedtime. My dog learned that the horns at the end of the song meant that it was time to go to bed, which means she gets let out to go run around the backyard before bed. This was reinforced just about every night for at least a month or more, and she's a Border Collie, so it really stuck. This was two years ago.
Now, when we get up to go to bed, she actually barks the beginning of the DS9 theme song, same pitch and cadence. It's fucking hilarious.
When we first got our dog, my wife and I were going through DS9 as she had never seen the full series before. We would watch one or two episodes right before bedtime. My dog learned that the horns at the end of the song meant that it was time to go to bed, which means she gets let out to go run around the backyard before bed. This was reinforced just about every night for at least a month or more, and she's a Border Collie, so it really stuck. This was two years ago.
Now, when we get up to go to bed, she actually barks the beginning of the DS9 theme song, same pitch and cadence. It's fucking hilarious.
SpoonyBard
Banned
It was just an example for something more complex.
And I Cardassians didn't really progress that much in comparison, after all, the Narn became one of the most trusted allies later in B5. Ok, Dukat being the main Cardassian maybe made things worse, the character got less interesting as the show progressed...
The Librarian
Banned
Nazi German and Jew metaphors aren't complex?
Um. Yeah they did. They went from the occupiers of a world to being
occupied themselves
That is amazing. I want a border collie!
That's far too dismissive.
Enterprise was pretty good in spots. It was certainly leagues better than Voyager.
What does leagues better suggest?
Also, this is the best commercial in the history of everything:
http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie...ner-fights-old-star-trek-enemy-215155239.html
SpoonyBard
Banned
Generally no, the situation was relatively simple. And we have seen every aspect of it before...
Well, as far as we know, and I remember, only some millions of Cardassians died when their home world was attacked. They lost their military strenght, but I don't think there was proof that their civilisation went through any larger changes. Compared to Narn, which I chose as comparison, they had it rather easy.
If there were strong Cardassian characters that could show us what the Cardassians were going through it would have helped, but that didn't really happen. The character arc of Dukat was quite weak towards the end. There was a point where the character could have started to redeem itself, but instead he goes evil and insane. Bah. Garak begins as the best alien character of the show, but towards the end he seems to lose his edge. Maybe the showrunners told the actor to tone down the "camp" acting, and the actor lost interest in the show? I recall reading something about this...
I actually think DS9 did a good job of depicting complex issues not merely through one form of allegory. Here's a good analysis of the show:
http://wrongquestions.blogspot.ca/2008/01/back-through-wormhole-part-iv-looking.html
The Librarian
Banned
As BorkBork's link shows, DS9 had no problem handling complex themes, and was great at showing them.
Damar was a pretty good cipher for everything you're wanting.
Uh huh...
SpoonyBard
Banned
Hmm... actually I thought so too when I was watching the show, but as no-one else mentioned it anywhere I thought I was just imagining things. And Cardassian actions during the occupation were always shown as being very negative. Well, actually Bajoran centered plots played the idea of what justifies terrorism, but it was always clear that Cardassians were just so evil, that any way to fight back was acceptable.
Dukat may have been the worst of his people, but it seemed to me that he always had the support of Cardassian goverment. The "good" Cardassians were always a small minority.
Sisko on the other hand... He was not an elite Starfleet officer like Enterprise crew, but murdering an Romulan ambassador was still something I'd rather have seen Odo made instead. It would have been pretty interesting episode, and less melodrama in the log entries, I reckon. Or maybe Dax, would have given her a bit more depth.
The Librarian
Banned
Those are both terrible ideas, and anyway Odo has some shadows from the occupation.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Well, not that much really... he was a soldier interested in winning the war. His biggest problem seemed to be having to play second fiddle to the Breen. He didn't seem to have moral conflights with the situation, if I remember correctly.
Oh fuck, a Lwaxana episode
That was my reaction too.....sad that she carried over to DS9.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Odo's main driving force was his sense of justice. Having him kill someone would have been more interesting character study than what we got with Sisko, if done right.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I thought Lwaxana worked well on DS9. Her and Odo's relationship was a lot more believable than Odo and Kira.
She was more tolerable. I can give you that. I didn't skip as many of her episodes in DS9 on a re-watch.
The Librarian
Banned
Damar's story parallels Cardassias evolution from a valuable ally to a necessary burden. It was quite marvelous what they did with his character. You keep talking about Dukat and Garak, but Damar is just as good as both of them. Damar, it could be argued, is the best character in all of Star Trek.
How would killing a Romulan senator and thus being responsible for millions of Romulan deaths would've fit within Odo's sense of justice? You're not making any sense here. In the Pale Moonlight was perfect as is. There's no pondering "it would've been better if..."
The best freaking commercial EVER featuring OG Kirk.
http://movies.yahoo.com/video/star-trek-video-game-spot-213028647.html
http://movies.yahoo.com/video/star-trek-video-game-spot-213028647.html
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
Guess what, retailer-exclusive extras are back for TNG S3.
TNG S1 and 2's BR releases made me think we were past this kind of bullshit.
TNG S1 and 2's BR releases made me think we were past this kind of bullshit.
Oh fuck, a Lwaxana episode
There's three of them. The first is the most tolerable. God help you with the other two.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
That game has a 95% probability of being a complete turd. Commercial is okay.
---
In other news, I wrapped up the last 3 episodes of Enterprise late tonight/early this morning. That just leaves TOS as the show I haven't really watched, besides some stray Voyager and TNG episodes. I'll post full thoughts on the last episodes and the series as a whole later though as it's quite late right now. Never got to discuss S3 in detail, which overall, was pretty damn good. But that's it for now.
You're remembering this completely wrong.
Damar was pretty complex and clearly grew over the show, he absolutely had moral struggles with what was going on and it was central to his character for the last season, especially the last story arc where he led the rebellion against the founders.
He was a soldier who was BASICALLY a toadie, and became a patriot, and that led him to both his lowest moments (Ziyal) and his highest ones (Martyr for Cardassia).
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Wasn't it revealed that once upon a time the military didn't have such a stranglehold on Cardassian life (and that is what they were going back to after the invasion)?
Escape Goat
Member
They used up their resources and had to start attacking and stealing others if I remember correctly.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Hmm, I remember him being against the Dominion and especially a certain Vorta quite early, already when he was Dukat's lieutenant. But he didn't do anything until the last minute, when he absolutely had to in order to save what was left of Cardassian empire. I think it was quite clear that Weyoun was pushing too hard, and it was just a matter of time when he'd change sides. Don't get me wrong, it's still a solid character, but lacking depth and charisma to be truly special.
The Librarian
Banned
You're still remembering him wrong. You need to watch the show again. Damar was amazing.
SpoonyBard
Banned
That was my point, how could Odo justify what he'd have to do? The episode was hardly perfect, we would have been far better off with less melodrama than what Mr. Brooks gave us. Maybe it wasn't as bad as Shatner reading the US constitution in Omega Glory, but what is?
The Librarian
Banned
Why would Odo do it if he couldn't justify it to himself? You're not making any sense, and there's no melodrama in "In the Pale Moonlight" outside of "It's a faaaaake!"