Support NeoGAF

[Fuchsdh]

Sorry I'm interrupting the VOY discussion; haven't gotten up to it yet.

Something I noticed about Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. The whole KHHHAAAAANNNN thing is iconic, and all this time I thought it was an expression of this great frustration at having been outsmarted and thoroughly beaten. Having seen the Khan episode in TOS, that impression seemed to be confirmed. But having finally watched the movie, it's not as a big deal because right after that Kirk reveals that it was he who outsmarted Khan. So was he really as angry as he let on, or was it part of is bluff? I'm guessing the writers would say it was a bit of both.

That's always been the weakest element of TWOK for me. It's so obvious something is off with Chekov and Terrell it seems bizarre they cart them along without even checking to see if they had a weapon or anything. Meanwhile Spock is so heavily over the top with his "by the book, Admiral" emphasis that it seems odd Khan is all that surprised Enterprise wasn't as wounded as they thought. It gets topped off with the "KHAAAN" bit, but I think that's actually the easiest to reconcile. Kirk's plan was to find Carol and Genesis and get back on the E; whether to try and run or fight if he had to. He didn't want Khan to end up with the Genesis Device, so I read that "KHAAAN" as frustration that he's got what they were trying to stop him from getting--after all Kirk probably would have surrendered himself if it hadn't also meant giving a crazed maniac the ability to create planets.

The O face Khan has when he thinks he's left Kirk marooned is pretty priceless.

As far as BSG, Voyager's premise would have made it a lot like BSG had they actually embraced it. If they werent comfortable with that then they shouldnt have had the lone ship as its premise. The show clearly wants to be Enterprise, it hates its own premise and it shows. Seriously, why would people still listen to Janeway after the third or so year, why would they still adhere to the Prime Directive? There is no StarFleet, no one to keep Janeway in check, and no one to file a grievance with, and you won;t get back to Earth within your life time. Sorry, but StarFleet or no StarFleet people would start to rebel if things didnt change.

So you're fine with shoplifting if no one's around to see it?

 

[foxtrot3d]

That's always been the weakest element of TWOK for me. It's so obvious something is off with Chekov and Terrell it seems bizarre they cart them along without even checking to see if they had a weapon or anything. Meanwhile Spock is so heavily over the top with his "by the book, Admiral" emphasis that it seems odd Khan is all that surprised Enterprise wasn't as wounded as they thought. It gets topped off with the "KHAAAN" bit, but I think that's actually the easiest to reconcile. Kirk's plan was to find Carol and Genesis and get back on the E; whether to try and run or fight if he had to. He didn't want Khan to end up with the Genesis Device, so I read that "KHAAAN" as frustration that he's got what they were trying to stop him from getting--after all Kirk probably would have surrendered himself if it hadn't also meant giving a crazed maniac the ability to create planets.

The O face Khan has when he thinks he's left Kirk marooned is pretty priceless.



So you're fine with shoplifting if no one's around to see it?

You're missing the point, under extreme duress and complete isolation the crew would not stick to adhering to strict StarFleet regulations. Dress code would probably break down (assuming replicators won't working), personal relationships with the crew would be common and encouraged, the Prime Directive would probably be done away with as any species that could help Voyager pre-warp or not would be explored and the rule of not getting involved in the internal politics of other species would just be silly to follow.

I mean that is literally the whole point of stranding a crew like that out there, to see how far they can go before breaking completely. Hell DS9 managed to do a few episodes that explored this but Voyager can't do this when it is the premise of the show.

In BSG we continually saw the fleet have to make compromises or completely abandon their old rules and notions because they no longer existed, Voyager should have been the same way. Otherwise, don't strand the crew on the other side of the galaxy, just make a copy of Enterprise like you wanted from the start and be done with it.

Shoplifting may be bad, but when you are starving and you are your family are dying of starvation will you still adhere or even care about to the fact that shoplifting is bad? That is supposed to be what Voyager should have explored.

 

[maharg]

Jesus christ, someone's got me wanting to defend Voyager. What has the world come to.

Voyager wasn't trying at any point to be BSG. It was just supposed to be an opportunity to have starfleet explore with a fresh slate of aliens and planets. It failed miserably at that, but that doesn't mean that it should have had a darker tone, it just should have been less stupid.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Shoplifting may be bad, but when you are starving and you are your family are dying of starvation will you still adhere or even care about to the fact that shoplifting is bad? That is supposed to be what Voyager should have explored.

You're making some fundamental assumptions about the nature of humanity--namely, that people act and think as you do.

Thank god most don't. It'd be a pretty crappy world otherwise.

 

[foxtrot3d]

You're making some fundamental assumptions about the nature of humanity--namely, that people act and think as you do.

Thank god most don't. It'd be a pretty crappy world otherwise.

??? That's exactly how the world works...

We don't rigidly stick to principles and laws when placed in extreme situations especially situations dealing with our very survival. That doesn't mean that we become cannibals but certain compromises are made. "In the Pale Moonlight" was a perfect example of this, and "The Siege of Ar-558" showed you how a StarFleet crew looked like after being deprived of all comforts, left alone, and placed on the front-lines for months.

Fuck, even Picard the most by the book Captain ever, broke the rules even the Prime Directive in certain situations. He let Data save that kid and the people on her planet that was exploding in violation of the PD because he thought it was wrong to let them all die.

Again, no one is saying the Voyager crew needed to become monsters deprived of their humanity but their ideals and principles should have come under constant scrutiny in that situation. And, if you want them to stick to Star Fleet principles no matter what then go ahead, but you better make sure their are consequences. They cannot simply take the high ground every episode and get to walk off clean.

If Voyager didn't want to explore those themes it shouldn't have stuck with it's premise, if all they wanted was to explore new worlds and aliens they could have stayed in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant, nothing there said it had to always be Klingons and Romulans.

BTW, if anyone is interested in the Ron Moore interview I was talking about you can find it here: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

I basically stood up and clapped after reading through it all, and what is funny is that the interview is pre-BSG and yet you can see he is already talking about things he will eventually implement in that show. Also, his predictions about the future of ST are spot on, makes me wonder if he knew they were trying to make "Enterprise."

 

[maharg]

It's not really a secret that Ron Moore's BSG was basically born out of his not being allowed to make Star Trek as cynical and gritty as he wanted to.

All the better that that trainwreck (in the end) ended up not in Trek.

 

[Henchmen21]

Fuck, even Picard the most by the book Captain ever, broke the rules even the Prime Directive in certain situations. He let Data save that kid and the people on her planet that was exploding in violation of the PD because he thought it was wrong to let them all die.

Actually the episode in question "Pen Pals", Data had already broken the PD by opening communications with Sarjenka. And Picard would have let them die had Data not done as he did. They have a big discussion about it in his quarters with the whole senior staff chiming in about their assessment of the situation.

It's not really a secret that Ron Moore's BSG was basically born out of his not being allowed to make Star Trek as cynical and gritty as he wanted to

It makes you wonder why he even started righting on the TNG in the first place.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Actually the episode in question "Pen Pals", Data had already broken the PD by opening communications with Sarjenka. And Picard would have let them die had Data not done as he did. They have a big discussion about it in his quarters with the whole senior staff chiming in about their assessment of the situation.



It makes you wonder why he even started righting on the TNG in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I gotta defend my man Ron here, whether or not you like the ending of BSG is not the issue here. Ron Moore expanded ST and was willing try try something bold with DS9 for which I think he succeeded, minus the whole Sisko being Space Jesus. I can honestly say that I think DS9 is the best Trek series.

What else would they do, another Enterprise with the same premise? That's what we had 7 years of TNG for. Voyager on the other hand is just flat and uninteresting, it wants to be Enterprise but can't admit it.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

You know, even in BSG, when it was one ship left and they were scrambling to survive, they mostly adhered to protocol and regs, often very strictly.

Military personnel know that's even more important in crisis situations; it's your only chance of survival. (Again, I haven't watched any of Voyager yet. I just started DS9 yesterday, and I'm already liking Sisko I'm wary of politics though.)

 

[maharg]

I'm happy with what we're getting right now. Optimistic space adventures with likeable people.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I'm happy with what we're getting right now. Optimistic space adventures with likeable people.

What do you mean? We aren't getting anything right now, except dumbed down action movies.

 

[maharg]

And I like them better than BSG! Hazzah!

 

[foxtrot3d]

And I like them better than BSG! Hazzah!

You're a mad man.

 

[Fuchsdh]

You're a mad man.

Some of us want to watch characters that aren't tools, stupid, Cylon messiahs, or all of the above.

 

[maharg]

You're a mad man.

To be fair, I'm talking about it as a whole. The first two seasons were fantastic. Particularly the first string of episodes of the first season (not including the miniseries, which was actually kind of mediocre by comparison). 33 is one of the best episodes of genre television ever.

But they also weren't even remotely what I want out of Trek. At all. Ever.

The new movies are closer to the original vision of Trek than anything Ron Moore's ever done by a quadrant or so.

 

[foxtrot3d]

To be fair, I'm talking about it as a whole. The first two seasons were fantastic. Particularly the first string of episodes of the first season (not including the miniseries, which was actually kind of mediocre by comparison). 33 is one of the best episodes of genre television ever.

But they also weren't even remotely what I want out of Trek. At all. Ever.

The new movies are closer to the original vision of Trek than anything Ron Moore's ever done by a quadrant or so.

How so? The new movies are all about action, no real Sci-Fi, no exploration of social issues, no analysis of the human condition, it's just cheap action and exploits of the original series.

Deep Space Nine had tons of action but it wasnt what the show was about, it was about the characters, about grappling with complex issues, it was about something. What are these new Trek movies about?

Now I don't hate the new movies, I acutally really liked the 09' movie it may have been senseless action but it was fun. However Into Darkness was just a cynical, dark, nonsensical action movie, that took exploiting the original series to down right copying and yet missing all of the meaning and heart behind it.

 

[maharg]

I don't see how the first categorical rejection of Section 31 in Trek since it was introduced can be seen as cynical. I think you might have missed some things.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Well there's a class of Voyager episodes that I file in my mind under "Poor, but saved by Jeri Ryan and/or Picardo acting the hell out of it."

Yeah, the plots don't often withstand closer examination, but if I enjoy watching them, I count them as good episodes.

 

[GungHo]

Yeah, the plots don't often withstand closer examination, but if I enjoy watching them, I count them as good episodes.

Your enjoyment is obviously a poor tool for critique, and you should feel more like a SporkyBard for it. (I'm just messing with you.)

 

[GameplayWhore]

I don't see how the first categorical rejection of Section 31 in Trek since it was introduced can be seen as cynical. I think you might have missed some things.

I agree with much of what you're saying here, but a lot of this depends on the follow through. To an extent, Section 31 were the bad guys, and they were defeated with violence. And then there was a speech at the end about how the Federation should be more "Star Trekkish".

That's great, but until we see that the above was more than lip service, it sort of up in the air.


I will note, though, that even the relatively meager nod to the intent of Trek given in this film is arguably more than that given in Nemesis, so at least we're a step up.

 

[maharg]

I agree with much of what you're saying here, but a lot of this depends on the follow through. To an extent, Section 31 were the bad guys, and they were defeated with violence. And then there was a speech at the end about how the Federation should be more "Star Trekkish".

That's great, but until we see that the above was more than lip service, it sort of up in the air.


I will note, though, that even the relatively meager nod to the intent of Trek given in this film is arguably more than that given in Nemesis, so at least we're a step up.

It's not like violence was never the solution in TOS, which to me STID most resembles. It's a very wild-west approach to the unlimited potential of humanity, but it's one that I find more entertaining than most of what Trek became.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Jesus christ, someone's got me wanting to defend Voyager. What has the world come to.

Voyager wasn't trying at any point to be BSG. It was just supposed to be an opportunity to have starfleet explore with a fresh slate of aliens and planets. It failed miserably at that, but that doesn't mean that it should have had a darker tone, it just should have been less stupid.

And boring. I'm simultaneously watching DS9 and Voyager. I love DS9, but as much as I'm trying to get into Voyager it's boring even though the lost in space premise is very appealing to me. I'm hoping it gets more interesting to me as I'm watching it regardless as part of my Trektastic summer.

 

[SpoonyBard]

And boring. I'm simultaneously watching DS9 and Voyager. I love DS9, but as much as I'm trying to get into Voyager it's boring even though the lost in space premise is very appealing to me. I'm hoping it gets more interesting to me as I'm watching it regardless as part of my Trektastic summer.

Hmm, I think the first two seasons were maybe bit boring (Kes & Neelix weren't interesting to me), but I have always thought that even when Voyager was bad it was somewhat entertaining. Compared to DS9, which was plain boring in places.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Hmm, I think the first two seasons were maybe bit boring (Kes & Neelix weren't interesting to me), but I have always thought that even when Voyager was bad it was somewhat entertaining. Compared to DS9, which was plain boring in places.

I think to be fair to both series they could be boring in entirely different ways. For DS9 I always felt like they retread some plot lines way too often (like Kira's resistance past) but never really dug deeper into some of the political stuff they talked about.

Voyager just often had its characters wandering around like idiots until they burned through a few minutes of screentime Neither show was helped by a decrease in the quality of the music.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Bartender we hired at my work thinks that Voyager is superior to DS9.

I had to control myself from flipping my shit at work.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I laughed.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I laughed.

My girlfriend got me that shirt. I looked down at it and wondered when the hell I would actually wear it.

I think I donated it to Purple Heart or something.

Not as bad as my roommate's birthday present to me one year, though: Star Trek shot glasses that were glazed with lead.

 

[lastplayed]

I remember when I was about 15 I wore a t-shirt that just had a print of the cast of TNG, and while I was waiting for the bus some dude walked by and laughed.

 

[Henchmen21]

The only Trek clothing I've had was a black t-shirt from TNG's tenth anniversary.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

The only Trek clothing I have are some crew gear from the last two films. A Starfleet Academy Class of 2255 shirt with a Golden Gate Bridge/ILM patch on the back, and a black jacket with the Starfleet insignia on the front right with some ST Into Darkness/ILM VFX text on the sleeve. Still wish I got the jacket from the first film instead, it had NCC-1701/Enterprise text stuff instead.

 

[Walshicus]

It's not really a secret that Ron Moore's BSG was basically born out of his not being allowed to make Star Trek as cynical and gritty as he wanted to.

All the better that that trainwreck (in the end) ended up not in Trek.

Instead we got Voyager. Yaaaay...

I think even if you didn't love BSG it still craps all over Voyager in execution. I cant think of anything redeeming about Voyager; RDM would have made it watchable for sure!

 

[firehawk12]

Instead we got Voyager. Yaaaay...

I think even if you didn't love BSG it still craps all over Voyager in execution. I cant think of anything redeeming about Voyager; RDM would have made it watchable for sure!

He came on and the first thing he did was Klingons, so no, I don't think Moore had any more ideas for Trek anymore.

I bet Worf would have somehow appeared on Voyager if Moore had his way.

 

[Walshicus]

He came on and the first thing he did was Klingons, so no, I don't think Moore had any more ideas for Trek anymore.

And to be fair, pretty much all the Klingon episodes of DS9 were brilliant.

I bet Worf would have somehow appeared on Voyager if Moore had his way.

It'd be odd watching an episode of Voyager that had a character.

 

[Da DreadLord]

It'd be odd watching an episode of Voyager that had a character.

Seven had character..

Spoiler

two of them

 

[GameplayWhore]

Seven had character..

Spoiler

two of them

In all seriousness, she actually was one of the better developed characters of the show. sfdebris has a pretty good point, though, about how her growth was really weirdly stubbed by her often saying things that the audience would agree with but being knocked down by the rather odd morals of the episodes.

I'm starting to think in retrospect that the Doctor had less actual "on paper" development and that most of his subjective character growth was due to a bang-up job of Picardo acting the part.

 

[firehawk12]

And to be fair, pretty much all the Klingon episodes of DS9 were brilliant.

While there are some things I appreciated, like a follow up to Alexander, I got over the Klingon fetish once the whole fake Gowron thing happened.

I think what Moore and Behr did to the Klingons is similar to what Berman and Braga did to the Borg at least. I mean, it wasn't as bad, but they were certainly in love with the Klingons a bit too much.

---

I probably missed this when it happened, but I just found out about this Star Trek: Continues fan film thing - http://www.startrekcontinues.com/star-trek-continues-episode-1-pilgrim-of-eternity/#.UfPncI3VA80

Beyond the oddity of seeing Grant from Mythbusters as Sulu (doing his best attempt at a Takei), the production itself looks pretty damn good. The story itself is a "sequel" to an original TOS episode (the one with the Greek gods, they even brought back the original actor from the episode to play Apollo again), and I suppose does well enough for what it is. It's certainly not JJTrek, because most of the episode is people sitting around talking to each other.

I've also noticed that Star Trek: New Voyages is still going and is called Phase 2 now (in direct reference to the original attempt to spinoff the series), and I imagine that after nearly a decade of making episodes, they must have things looking really good as well (I can't believe they're shooting on Red Epics, for example).

The set looks as garish as the original sets anyway. lol

The other funny thing is that I remember when there was angst about whether or not these fan productions would be killed. Now, they look as good as at least the original series ever did.

 

[Henchmen21]

While there are some things I appreciated, like a follow up to Alexander, I got over the Klingon fetish once the whole fake Gowron thing happened.

I think what Moore and Behr did to the Klingons is similar to what Berman and Braga did to the Borg at least. I mean, it wasn't as bad, but they were certainly in love with the Klingons a bit too much.

Definitely agree here. Moore and Behr ruined the character of Worf and Gowron.

 

[maharg]

While there are some things I appreciated, like a follow up to Alexander, I got over the Klingon fetish once the whole fake Gowron thing happened.

The changeling threat allowed for some really really lazy plot twists.

 

[SpoonyBard]

The changeling threat allowed for some really really lazy plot twists.

Alexander must have also been a changeling, no way he would grow up that fast otherwise. Funny how no-one noticed.

 

[TheYanger]

Alexander must have also been a changeling, no way he would grow up that fast otherwise. Funny how no-one noticed.

Um, he's not human you realize that right? This is all actually explained because of that, they made sure they'd not yet talked about klingon 'puberty' as it were.

 

[Henchmen21]

Um, he's not human you realize that right? This is all actually explained because of that, they made sure they'd not yet talked about klingon 'puberty' as it were.

Actually he's 1/4 human considering his mother was half human.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Um, he's not human you realize that right? This is all actually explained because of that, they made sure they'd not yet talked about klingon 'puberty' as it were.

He didn't age faster than human children during the time he was onboard the Enterprise.

 

[Fuchsdh]

He didn't age faster than human children during the time he was onboard the Enterprise.

Arguing about kid's aging on TV shows is a no-win scenario, like complaining about how stupid pregnancy storylines are (it's not sexism, Feminist Frequency, it's the desire not to have to shoot the women from behind consoles for five or six months.)

 

[SpoonyBard]

Arguing about kid's aging on TV shows is a no-win scenario, like complaining about how stupid pregnancy storylines are (it's not sexism, Feminist Frequency, it's the desire not to have to shoot the women from behind consoles for five or six months.)

Er, I know why TV shows skip the baby phase, like with Alexander and Molly O'Brien in TNG (there's only so much drama you can make out of changing diapers), but it slightly different when you age a child 10 years just for stupid plot reasons like they did in DS9. Maybe this boils mainly to Sons and Daughters being such a shitty episode...

What is sad though, that these shows have starships that could very easily suffer the effects of gravitational time dilation and relative velocity time dilation with plot wise convenient warp drive malfunctions. But instead the writers settle on soap opera tropes...

 

[firehawk12]

Definitely agree here. Moore and Behr ruined the character of Worf and Gowron.

Culminating with Worf pining over Ezri.

The changeling threat allowed for some really really lazy plot twists.

Anything to fill out a season arc, I suppose. And to make Worf even more of a hero than Redemption and that DS9 crossover ever did.

 

[flyover]

What is sad though, that these shows have starships that could very easily suffer the effects of gravitational time dilation and relative velocity time dilation...

It would be so difficult to pull off, but can you imagine a TV series making use of this on a recurring basis? Could make for some heartbreaking (and occasionally heartwarming) storylines. It's used to great effect in Joe Haldeman's The Forever War.

 

[Rei no Otaku]

It would be so difficult to pull off, but can you imagine a TV series making use of this on a recurring basis? Could make for some heartbreaking (and occasionally heartwarming) storylines. It's used to great effect in Joe Haldeman's The Forever War.

It's the main crux of the show. Some really depressing stuff in there when dealing with the passage of time while someone is in warp.

 

[SpoonyBard]

It would be so difficult to pull off, but can you imagine a TV series making use of this on a recurring basis? Could make for some heartbreaking (and occasionally heartwarming) storylines. It's used to great effect in Joe Haldeman's The Forever War.

That would be amazing if done right. Gunbuster was already pretty damn good, even though it had a lot of other stuff going on..

 

[squid]

Man, I hope we get DS9 on blu ray. I haven't watched that show in a few years, but it's the only Trek series that comes close to TNG IMO. These TNG remasters are amazing and the new special features are great! Would love to see the same work done to DS9.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Man, I hope we get DS9 on blu ray. I haven't watched that show in a few years, but it's the only Trek series that comes close to TNG IMO. These TNG remasters are amazing and the new special features are great! Would love to see the same work done to DS9.

Isn't the issue with DS9 more dire, though? TNG was shot on film and I believe so were most of the final effects shots, only the composites were done on videotape. There's some video-only effects stuff that had to be completely redone, but it was more a task of finding, reassembling, and cleaning up existing stuff. DS9 and Voyager have so much more CG that would have to be wrangled or recreated; there's conflicting reports on whether the bulk of this stuff is still lying around on hard drives somewhere, is lost or somewhere in between. Ultimately it's going to be a lot more work for unfortunately not as much bang, I think, given that the CG stuff is probably not going to hold up as well. Still it would be great to get all of Trek in a format for the future.