Support NeoGAF

[Fuchsdh]

You know, I'm still confused regarding the Prime and Alternate Universe in the respects that the Alternate Universe seemed to have come about by Nero and Spock traveling back in time through the black hole.

However, by this logic wouldn't there already be Alternate Universes in most ST? Wouldn't most of the ST movies and episodes already take place in an alternate universe? I mean, Borg traveling back in time and assimilating Earth with Picard helping Cochrane, as just one of many, many examples of time travel in the movies and tv show. So what separates Prime Universe from the Abrams alternate one when they've done stuff like this so much already anyhow making most of the ST episodes "alternate" anyhow?

Yeah, the only difference is that the "Prime" timeline is the only one we cared about (besides I guess the mirror universe). Sucked that the Borg overran the quadrant for that ship in "Parallels", but them's the breaks.

Where it gets a bit sticky is that depending on your interpretation of how alternate dimensions work (and it's all theoretical bullshit anyhow, so there's not much of a point to arguing about it), when Kirk and co. go back in time to save the whales, they're not necessarily returning to "their" time, they're just creating an alternate timeline where they saved everyone. Trek, meanwhile, has always treated it as jumping around time in one specific universe rather than across infinite ones. I guess you can argue that if you buy the alternate universe theory the hero's efforts feel like they're in vain because they don't "fix" the original universe, but I don't really think that hard about that stuff. It's fiction, so it obeys certain higher laws of story above those of science when it comes right down to it.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Yeah, the only difference is that the "Prime" timeline is the only one we cared about (besides I guess the mirror universe). Sucked that the Borg overran the quadrant for that ship in "Parallels", but them's the breaks.

Where it gets a bit sticky is that depending on your interpretation of how alternate dimensions work (and it's all theoretical bullshit anyhow, so there's not much of a point to arguing about it), when Kirk and co. go back in time to save the whales, they're not necessarily returning to "their" time, they're just creating an alternate timeline where they saved everyone. Trek, meanwhile, has always treated it as jumping around time in one specific universe rather than across infinite ones. I guess you can argue that if you buy the alternate universe theory the hero's efforts feel like they're in vain because they don't "fix" the original universe, but I don't really think that hard about that stuff. It's fiction, so it obeys certain higher laws of story above those of science when it comes right down to it.

Yeah, how I figure it "should" work is that when you go back in time and change something, it creates an alternate timeline, aka alternate universe. So what would be the difference between the Abrams ST universe and all the other times Archer, Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway traveled through time? In essence, they would all be creating alternate universes and we'd never really have an actual "Prime" one.

Could this have been it? http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Federation

Honestly, that sounds kind of cool. I even read the other page linked on there with the details regarding Star Trek: Federation. I'm going to assume, even though it's not mention anywhere, that the Alexander Kirk they mention of year 3000 is James Kirk's great, great, great, great grandson.

 

[maharg]

Trek has generally operated on a cascade model of time travel. There are clearly multiple universes, and you can travel between them, but time travel isn't what creates them, and time travel doesn't move you between them. The 'prime universe' nomenclature is just to help people not have a hissy fit because they wiped out the entire original timeline and give the new movies a chance.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Trek has generally operated on a cascade model of time travel. There are clearly multiple universes, and you can travel between them, but time travel isn't what creates them, and time travel doesn't move you between them. The 'prime universe' nomenclature is just to help people not have a hissy fit because they wiped out the entire original timeline and give the new movies a chance.

Which is fine I guess insofar as justification, but I'm still of the opinion both new movies would have been better without Spock in them.

By the way, why is your name red?

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Which is fine I guess insofar as justification, but I'm still of the opinion both new movies would have been better without Spock in them.

By the way, why is your name red?

He's a mod.

 

[Walshicus]

Could this have been it? http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Federation

Nah, I could have sworn it was supposed to be set fairly near the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

Damn that's going to bug me until I can track it down.

 

[CorrisD]

Seems Netflix in the UK has TNG, must have been recently added, but it is just season 1-4 which makes a marathon a bit pointless, I was almost hoping they had put up the blu-ray versions, but sadly not. Hopefully this is just the start of them appearing, I know US Netrflix has all the different series and all seasons for each, so following in their footsteps would be nice, it can be a pain watching them from over here without having to keep quitting the app every episode, lol.

Could this have been it? http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Federation

I'm honestly happy that didn't happen, at least in the way it is written there. Year 3000 is going way too far past the TNG era imo, and I wont start on "Lieutenant Commander Alexander Kirk", I mean really, come on now.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Seems Netflix in the UK has TNG, must have been recently added, but it is just season 1-4 which makes a marathon a bit pointless, I was almost hoping they had put up the blu-ray versions, but sadly not. Hopefully this is just the start of them appearing, I know US Netrflix has all the different series and all seasons for each, so following in their footsteps would be nice, it can be a pain watching them from over here without having to keep quitting the app every episode, lol.



I'm honestly happy that didn't happen, at least in the way it is written there. Year 3000 is going way too far past the TNG era imo, and I wont start on "Lieutenant Commander Alexander Kirk", I mean really, come on now.

I know Bryan Singer has a lot of nerd goodwill, but I really don't think he's got a great track record. I think the trick is finding someone who doesn't have an ego--Trek doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, it just needs to tell good stories in the universe.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I'm honestly happy that didn't happen, at least in the way it is written there. Year 3000 is going way too far past the TNG era imo, and I wont start on "Lieutenant Commander Alexander Kirk", I mean really, come on now.

And the whole fall and rebirth of the Federation thing sounds a bit too much like Andromeda.

 

[maharg]

And the whole fall and rebirth of the Federation thing sounds a bit too much like Andromeda.

Which is not really all that surprising, since that's effectively what Andromeda was.

I would actually have enjoyed that show as described, incidentally. It's one of only two options they could have taken to get out of the quagmire that is the 24th century Trek universe. They took the other, but I'd have been ok with this one.

The name+destiny thing with Kirk I'd be ok with losing, though. Fine to have him named that, but it's a bit too chosen one as written.

 

[firehawk12]

Looking at Memory Alpha, I totally forgot that they tried to make a spin-off cartoon set in the future as well.

In hindsight, all of these things sound better than Into Darkness.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I don't know if it's just the longer episode lengths, but going through TOS can be really tedious at times. Some better episodes are easier to sit through, but others it can be a real drag.

 

[firehawk12]

I don't know if it's just the longer episode lengths, but going through TOS can be really tedious at times. Some better episodes are easier to sit through, but others it can be a real drag.

Well, the thing is that TV shows are less than 40 minutes now, so we're all just used to directors being forced to be more economical with their time.

It's not just TOS. The first and second season of TNG had 50 minute episodes, and you can feel the extra time in the slow pans and the talky scenes where people just sit around and pontificate.

I don't know if it's better or worse though... because you could argue that we have just lost our attention spans over the last three decades and have become horrible people who want things faster and more immediately. lol

 

[SpoonyBard]

Well, the thing is that TV shows are less than 40 minutes now, so we're all just used to directors being forced to be more economical with their time.

It's not just TOS. The first and second season of TNG had 50 minute episodes, and you can feel the extra time in the slow pans and the talky scenes where people just sit around and pontificate.

I don't know if it's better or worse though... because you could argue that we have just lost our attention spans over the last three decades and have become horrible people who want things faster and more immediately. lol

The 50 minute episodes were better paced more often than the 40 minute ones... And even worse offender are stories with A plots and B plots that get equal amount of screen time. That gives us a 20 minute A plot, and that's really not enough for a more complex story.

 

[firehawk12]

It's why, for the most part, the B stories are mostly diversions later on. It's almost like they're just there to break up the A story so that the audience doesn't get too bored.

 

[SpoonyBard]

It's why, for the most part, the B stories are mostly diversions later on. It's almost like they're just there to break up the A story so that the audience doesn't get too bored.

Yeah, but personally I'd rather get a bit bored than watch what's up with Neelix this week.

 

[CorrisD]

And the whole fall and rebirth of the Federation thing sounds a bit too much like Andromeda.

Ay, but I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as they didn't take it as far as they did in Andromeda, that being if the Federation just didn't exist anymore at all. Andromeda also royally fucked up that concept too barely lasting two seasons before the writing started going all over the place and completely left the point of the series in the first place, I would hope Star Trek could do it better, at least though it would still be in the "family" as it was based on stuff Roddenberry hadn't used.

Speaking of, that Andromeda though, I only caught the first season when it was coming out, I watched it all on Netflix a few months ago. Not only, like I said, did they fuck up the premise, they never solved anything by the end. That fifth season especially sucked hard, besides that Abyss they defeated all the other bad guys were still around including that world ship they were so worried about.
There were so many problems with that show, I just felt annoyed by the end of it that nothing had really happened with the premise by the end of the last season.

I would actually have enjoyed that show as described, incidentally. It's one of only two options they could have taken to get out of the quagmire that is the 24th century Trek universe. They took the other, but I'd have been ok with this one.

The name+destiny thing with Kirk I'd be ok with losing, though. Fine to have him named that, but it's a bit too chosen one as written.

It isn't jumping past the 24th century I have a problem with, it is jumping 700 years past it that seems a stretch too far. TOS to TNG was a nearly exact century jump if you ignore the films, they were able to do quite a lot with that small jump unverse wise to fill up three different series with characters and races. I think something around 200 years would be plenty for this sort of story to develop before they start hitting bits we've seen from current series with timeships and what not.

The Dominion have been "defeated" and the Cardassians no longer a problem, a heavy blow was struck to the Borg, the Klingons are allies and the Romulans as seen in Star Trek 09 would have lost quite a lot when the whole Hobus supernova happened, I could easily see the Federation resting on their laurels to set up this sort of story without jumping so far ahead.

 

[maharg]

Ay, but I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as they didn't take it as far as they did in Andromeda, that being if the Federation just didn't exist anymore at all. Andromeda also royally fucked up that concept too barely lasting two seasons before the writing started going all over the place and completely left the point of the series in the first place, I would hope Star Trek could do it better, at least though it would still be in the "family" as it was based on stuff Roddenberry hadn't used.

Speaking of, that Andromeda though, I only caught the first season when it was coming out, I watched it all on Netflix a few months ago. Not only, like I said, did they fuck up the premise, they never solved anything by the end. That fifth season especially sucked hard, besides that Abyss they defeated all the other bad guys were still around including that world ship they were so worried about.
There were so many problems with that show, I just felt annoyed by the end of it that nothing had really happened with the premise by the end of the last season.



It isn't jumping past the 24th century I have a problem with, it is jumping 700 years past it that seems a stretch too far. TOS to TNG was a nearly exact century jump if you ignore the films, they were able to do quite a lot with that small jump unverse wise to fill up three different series with characters and races. I think something around 200 years would be plenty for this sort of story to develop before they start hitting bits we've seen from current series with timeships and what not.

The Dominion have been "defeated" and the Cardassians no longer a problem, a heavy blow was struck to the Borg, the Klingons are allies and the Romulans as seen in Star Trek 09 would have lost quite a lot when the whole Hobus supernova happened, I could easily see the Federation resting on their laurels to set up this sort of story without jumping so far ahead.

Personally I think setting up the 26th+ century as being all about time travel/time cop nonsense was a horrible mistake, so I'm fine with them skipping that altogether and jumping ahead of it.

To set up a fall of the federation, you need more than a couple centuries, though. I also think it'd be more interesting to have the Trek we know be so distant in the past as to be more legend than fact.

 

[AnotherNils]

And the whole fall and rebirth of the Federation thing sounds a bit too much like Andromeda.

I was thinking Foundation, actually.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I was thinking Foundation, actually.

Hmm, I think even if Paramount sets Foundation as their goal, the finished product will be surprisingly close to Andromeda. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Foundation on TV or movie screen, but it would require LoTR like budget.

 

[AnotherNils]

Hmm, I think even if Paramount sets Foundation as their goal, the finished product will be surprisingly close to Andromeda. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Foundation on TV or movie screen, but it would require LoTR like budget.

No, I agree. I don't see anyone living up to Asimov. (Plus, god help us if they tried to integrate psychohistory into the Trek universe)

 

[Fuchsdh]

No, I agree. I don't see anyone living up to Asimov. (Plus, god help us if they tried to integrate psychohistory into the Trek universe)

Yeah, let's not go there. *shudder*

 

[SpoonyBard]

(Plus, god help us if they tried to integrate psychohistory into the Trek universe)

DS9 ep Statistical Probabilities already tried that And the episode even suggested, that if Federation surrendered to Dominion, they would eventually rise up against Dominion and win in the future.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I just finished watching "Nothing Human" because I wanted to see an episode with a non-humanoid alien. Those centipedes were warp capable. I'd love to see those aliens return (with updated effects) in the Abrams Alternate Universe because I'm fucking weird and I like non-humanoid aliens.

BTW, I think Janeway may the right decision.

 

[Instigator]

I just finished watching "Nothing Human" because I wanted to see an episode with a non-humanoid alien. Those centipedes were warp capable. I'd love to see those aliens return (with updated effects) in the Abrams Alternate Universe because I'm fucking weird and I like non-humanoid aliens.

BTW, I think Janeway may the right decision.

The doctor made the wrong one.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

I'm sure most people in this thread already know and I'm just really LTTP, but I just discovered this podcast:

http://www.missionlogpodcast.com

Good shit. They go through each episode and discuss the topics presented.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

The doctor made the wrong one.

Deleting the Cardassian doctor?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Deleting the Cardassian doctor?

What always annoyed me about that episode was the central premise made no sense. How could you create a holographic doctor that knows "he" did horrible things, but the crew themselves don't know?

 

[Darkmakaimura]

What always annoyed me about that episode was the central premise made no sense. How could you create a holographic doctor that knows "he" did horrible things, but the crew themselves don't know?

I'm guessing it was stored in the computer database. I guess they got archives on the ship's computer and they never bothered to actually look up anything about the doctor.

I'm making excuses and stuff. I know.

 

[Instigator]

Deleting the Cardassian doctor?

Most importantly, his knowledge obtained through barbaric means.

But that is after saving B'elanna then the doctor deletes it. Never mind that it's basically the ship's computer deciding to delete part of its vital database, it's an empty gesture since it only applies to the Voyager ship, the rest of the Federation still has it, probably enjoying its benefits daily.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Most importantly, his knowledge obtained through barbaric means.

But that is after saving B'elanna then the doctor deletes it. Never mind that it's basically the ship's computer deciding to delete part of its vital database, it's an empty gesture since it only applies to the Voyager ship, the rest of the Federation still has it, probably enjoying its benefits daily.

Assuming they (the Federation) would ever "know" to use it. But yeah, computers in Star Trek work on bizarre levels, that's for sure. Good points.

On a completely different note, this is still one of my favorite musical themes from Star Trek ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58wJRrvVgZI

 

[Cheerilee]

What always annoyed me about that episode was the central premise made no sense. How could you create a holographic doctor that knows "he" did horrible things, but the crew themselves don't know?

I'm guessing it was stored in the computer database. I guess they got archives on the ship's computer and they never bothered to actually look up anything about the doctor.

I'm making excuses and stuff. I know.

When I saw that episode, I was reminded of the holographic consultant that Geordi made, and how he met the real person later, and the two were nothing alike. And she was a Federation citizen. The Cardassian doctor's personality was just a computer-generated fiction based on newspaper clippings.

What really bugged me is that this holo-doctor seems to be intended to be at least somewhat sentient, similar to the EMH, and he factually didn't do the horrible things that his source material did, he was merely "branded" with those actions (like Tom Paris was branded with the memory of a killer in Ex Post Facto). He's in a completely different environment than his source material was (he's working under Janeway's strict adherence to Starfleet morals, rather than a brutal occupation), which is an environment change that he's completely aware of, as well as his true nature as a holographic consultant and a physical imitation.

And in spite of all this, Voyager offers no second chances (or first chances, depending on perspective). There's no hope for change or redemption. The EMH simply "built this person wrong", so he's willing to kill him.

 

[Henchmen21]

Leah Brahms is the character you're thinking of and the episodes she appears in are "Booby Trap" from season 3 & "Galaxy's Child" from season 4.

And she wasn't a consultant, she was head of the engineering section who helped build the Enterprise at Utopia Planetia Shipyards.

 

[Fuchsdh]

When I saw that episode, I was reminded of the holographic consultant that Geordi made, and how he met the real person later, and the two were nothing alike. And she was a Federation citizen. The Cardassian doctor's personality was just a computer-generated fiction based on newspaper clippings.

What really bugged me is that this holo-doctor seems to be intended to be at least somewhat sentient, similar to the EMH, and he factually didn't do the horrible things that his source material did, he was merely "branded" with those actions (like Tom Paris was branded with the memory of a killer in Ex Post Facto). He's in a completely different environment than his source material was (he's working under Janeway's strict adherence to Starfleet morals, rather than a brutal occupation), which is an environment change that he's completely aware of, as well as his true nature as a holographic consultant and a physical imitation.

And in spite of all this, Voyager offers no second chances (or first chances, depending on perspective). There's no hope for change or redemption. The EMH simply "built this person wrong", so he's willing to kill him.

That's fundamentally where the hologram issue goes weird, and Voyager never really explored this properly (but they at least addressed it in a meaningful way... TNG basically just had "Ship in a Bottle" but considering they just trick Moriarty it's not a great example.

At what point do the holograms become sentient? Or are they themselves not necessarily sentient, but part of a larger holodeck program that is in turn sentient? Considering what we've seen of holodeck functions as soon as someone messes with X they all essentially become self-aware and figure out they're in a simulation, the future must be fine with killing off these guys at a regular clip.

 

[Cheerilee]

Leah Brahms is the character you're thinking of and the episodes she appears in are "Booby Trap" from season 3 & "Galaxy's Child" from season 4.

And she wasn't a consultant, she was head of the engineering section who helped build the Enterprise at Utopia Planetia Shipyards.

The hologram though, was just a consultant for Geordi. The hologram also never lead any teams or built any engines. She was just the computer's best guess at what someone who did that should act like. Also, the Enterprise computer has obviously seen a lot of porn. It knows how these kind of tense situations always turn out. The Voyager computer was probably watching too much "Insurrection Alpha" and "Photons Be Free".

 

[explodet]

Watching some TNG as comfort food while I plug away at a project.
Wow, the end of The Drumhead still gives me whiplash.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The hologram though, was just a consultant for Geordi. The hologram also never lead any teams or built any engines. She was just the computer's best guess at what someone who did that should act like. Also, the Enterprise computer has obviously seen a lot of porn. It knows how these kind of tense situations always turn out. The Voyager computer was probably watching too much "Insurrection Alpha" and "Photons Be Free".

I still really like that one. Voyager was at its best when it hammed it up a little because it was clear that the writers and actors actually put more effort into it. I'm sure when the doc gives the line to Janeway about how the holographic version and her are nothing alike "because you haven't killed any of my patients" a bunch of fanboys were screaming at their TVs "TUVIXXX"

 

[Cheerilee]

That's fundamentally where the hologram issue goes weird, and Voyager never really explored this properly (but they at least addressed it in a meaningful way... TNG basically just had "Ship in a Bottle" but considering they just trick Moriarty it's not a great example.

At what point do the holograms become sentient? Or are they themselves not necessarily sentient, but part of a larger holodeck program that is in turn sentient? Considering what we've seen of holodeck functions as soon as someone messes with X they all essentially become self-aware and figure out they're in a simulation, the future must be fine with killing off these guys at a regular clip.

In TNG's "Measure of a Man", Dr Maddox described sentience as (intelligence + self-awareness + consciousness).

Picard - "Now tell me, Commander, what is Data?"
Maddox - "I don't understand."
Picard - "What is he?"
Maddox - "A machine!"
Picard - "Is he? Are you sure?"
Maddox - "Yes!"
Picard - "You see he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third, consciousness, in even the smallest degree? What is he then? I don't know, do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you?"

The judge concluded that, not having all the answers, Data should be allowed to explore the answer to that question for himself, and she ruled that Data was not the property of Starfleet.

There are degrees to the level of "machine life" shown in Trek, and Data seemed convinced that the Exocomp robots should be given the same level of freedom that he was. Data didn't fully win his argument, but at least he convinced their owner to start asking for consent.

There seem to also be different degrees of holographic complexity, with some advanced ones like Moriarty, and others clearly being empty shells following a script, superficially mimicking living things. The Doctor apparently believed himself to be sentient and oppressed. He eventually won some support within the Voyager crew. He also believed that other, less complex holograms should have rights.

When Starfleet was pressed to rule on the Doctor's legal status as a "person", they dodged the question by expanding the definition of "author" to include non-persons.

Basically, it remains an open question as to where "machine life" begins in Trek, if it exists at all, but the Doctor apparently has a pretty liberal view of it, which is why I was surprised that he would choose to execute one in cold blood, one who was a productive and valuable member of the crew who committed no crimes, and one which he could have potentially rehabilitated to remove the undesirable traits that were forced upon him, or securely incarcerated (it's entirely possible to turn off a program, and then severely restrict access to it).

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I still really like that one. Voyager was at its best when it hammed it up a little because it was clear that the writers and actors actually put more effort into it. I'm sure when the doc gives the line to Janeway about how the holographic version and her are nothing alike "because you haven't killed any of my patients" a bunch of fanboys were screaming at their TVs "TUVIXXX"

Can we uh.... can we.... forget the Tuvix episode please?

That and the Transwarp hyper-evolved Tom Paris bangs Janeway while lizards and the let's-help-the-Q-win-a-civil-war garbage.

 

[Henchmen21]

Can we uh.... can we.... forget the Tuvix episode please?

That and the Transwarp hyper-evolved Tom Paris bangs Janeway while lizards and the let's-help-the-Q-win-a-civil-war garbage.

I personally ignore everything not created by Roddenberry himself.

 

[brian577]

Basically, it remains an open question as to where "machine life" begins in Trek, if it exists at all, but the Doctor apparently has a pretty liberal view of it, which is why I was surprised that he would choose to execute one in cold blood, one who was a productive and valuable member of the crew who committed no crimes, and one which he could have potentially rehabilitated to remove the undesirable traits that were forced upon him, or securely incarcerated (it's entirely possible to turn off a program, and then severely restrict access to it).

If you haven't seen it already sfdebris has an interesting video on holographic rights.

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/zholodeck.asp

 

[Fuchsdh]

Can we uh.... can we.... forget the Tuvix episode please?

That and the Transwarp hyper-evolved Tom Paris bangs Janeway while lizards and the let's-help-the-Q-win-a-civil-war garbage.

Aww I liked the Q War thing because it was so damn goofy. "Look I have a rifle! Surrender omnipotent being!"

 

[DrForester]

I enjoyed Tuvix. The actor was brilliant as playing two characters at once. I also liked the resolution of the story, that Janeway made a purely emotional decision to get back two of her friends at the expense of Tuvix's life. Even the rest of the crew wanted Tuvok and Nelix back and were unwilling to stop her. I thought it was a pretty good moment.

 

[Rei no Otaku]

I enjoyed Tuvix. The actor was brilliant as playing two characters at once. I also liked the resolution of the story, that Janeway made a purely emotional decision to get back two of her friends at the expense of Tuvix's life. Even the rest of the crew wanted Tuvok and Nelix back and were unwilling to stop her. I thought it was a pretty good moment.

I wouldn't have minded the episode so much if at least one other person than the doctor raised an objection. Absolutely ridiculous that NO ONE on the entire ship wouldn't even raise a single question about it.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Aww I liked the Q War thing because it was so damn goofy. "Look I have a rifle! Surrender omnipotent being!"

One thing about Star Trek that bugs me is the overuse of anachronism. Oh look, here's another Holodeck/illusion/place-too-weird-you-can't-comprehend so it's going to look like some point in pre-20th century Earth history.

I guess it's nice Zephram Cochrane was listening to rock and roll, but it'd be nice for a crew member to talk or listen to rock music from the 90's! You know, something like the Beastie Boys for instance.... oh wait....

 

[AnotherNils]

Speaking of anachronisms, if there's one thing to appreciate about that early TNG is like an Ecounter at Farpoint the trial took place is a future dystopia rather than a recognizable one from the past.

 

[Fuchsdh]

One thing about Star Trek that bugs me is the overuse of anachronism. Oh look, here's another Holodeck/illusion/place-too-weird-you-can't-comprehend so it's going to look like some point in pre-20th century Earth history.

I guess it's nice Zephram Cochrane was listening to rock and roll, but it'd be nice for a crew member to talk or listen to rock music from the 90's! You know, something like the Beastie Boys for instance.... oh wait....

We've spent time in the "dark age" with TNG and DS9--unfortunately VOY essentially forced you to assume that the US was the last to be affected by the Eugenics wars.

Star Trek might be socially progressive in many ways, but it's also deeply conservative and I would say nostalgic about the texture of the past. It's one of the things I love about the series.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Speaking of anachronisms, if there's one thing to appreciate about that early TNG is like an Ecounter at Farpoint the trial took place is a future dystopia rather than a recognizable one from the past.

Yeah, it was from their past but our future. If I recall correctly it was almost like a second Dark Ages before the enlightened, post-scarcity utopia came about and ushered in the age do space travel.

Also In TNG they made the effort of including the names of fictional scientists and artists whenever someone had to bring up Einstein, DaVinci, etc.

 

[AnotherNils]

Also In TNG they made the effort of including the names of fictional scientists and artists whenever someone had to bring up Einstein, DaVinci, etc.

True, but it had this weird predictable pattern to it. Usually two names most people would recognize and then some made-up third.

Philosophers: "PLato, Descartes, Surak.

Generals: "Alexander, Patton, Kahless"

Scientists: "Curie, Pasteur, Soongh"

It got kind of old.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

True, but it had this weird predictable pattern to it. Usually two names most people would recognize and then some made-up third.

Philosophers: "PLato, Descartes, Surak.

Generals: "Alexander, Patton, Kahless"

Scientists: "Curie, Pasteur, Soongh"

It got kind of old.

Haha, yes! To me it was always charming. But I am a new Trek fan so it's all fresh to me.