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[brian577]

One thing about Star Trek that bugs me is the overuse of anachronism. Oh look, here's another Holodeck/illusion/place-too-weird-you-can't-comprehend so it's going to look like some point in pre-20th century Earth history.

I guess it's nice Zephram Cochrane was listening to rock and roll, but it'd be nice for a crew member to talk or listen to rock music from the 90's! You know, something like the Beastie Boys for instance.... oh wait....

I'm more annoyed by the lack of a 23rd/24th century culture. It seems like a pop culture died after the mid 20th century in the Star Trek Universe.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I'm more annoyed by the lack of a 23rd/24th century culture. It seems like a pop culture died after the mid 20th century in the Star Trek Universe.

That's reasonable, but think about how the "future" (or I guess ancient past) music of Star Wars sounds absolutely dreadful (both thr original and 97 versions.) Inventing pop culture has the very real chance to come off as heavily anachronistic and dated to future audiences far more than using something that's stood the test of time.

 

[AnotherNils]

Well sure, look at civlianwear in the 24th. Still, I'd rather they make the effort.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I'm more annoyed by the lack of a 23rd/24th century culture. It seems like a pop culture died after the mid 20th century in the Star Trek Universe.

This.

There's no equivalent of a 23rd century hipster, for one bad example.

If memory serves me right, I think there was one episode of TNG some kid was listening to the equivalent of Klingon heavy metal music and he was told to turn it off.

I guess the lack of pop culture is Star Trek is because we very rarely see the civilian side of Earth. I still don't quite understand how Earth economics work except apparently they did away with money. But, like, how does one go to a bar to get beer for instance? Do you just go in and say I want beer and they just give it to you because, you know, they can replicate unlimited quantities?

 

[Fuchsdh]

This.

There's no equivalent of a 23rd century hipster, for one bad example.

If memory serves me right, I think there was one episode of TNG some kid was listening to the equivalent of Klingon heavy metal music and he was told to turn it off.

I guess the lack of pop culture is Star Trek is because we very rarely see the civilian side of Earth. I still don't quite understand how Earth economics work except apparently they did away with money. But, like, how does one go to a bar to get beer for instance? Do you just go in and say I want beer and they just give it to you because, you know, they can replicate unlimited quantities?

If I were running Star Trek the first thing I'd do is offer like a $10k prize to whoever could cook up the most reasonable explanation for how economics work in the 24th century where we've moved beyond scarcity. We clearly see that replicators don't do *everything*--I imagine just like how some people prefer to have human-prepared and grown food, there are people who want hand-crafted furniture and whatnot--but then does everyone fall back on the barter system? Are their exchanges?

It also really bothers me that the Ferengi can even exist, or how there is apparently a thriving inter-species trade around and in the Federation. How do you prevent counterfeiting of gold-pressed latinum if you can replicate something to the presumable atomic level? It seems odd that the profit-hungry Ferengi would work on honor rules or a value system like humans still have.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

If I were running Star Trek the first thing I'd do is offer like a $10k prize to whoever could cook up the most reasonable explanation for how economics work in the 24th century where we've moved beyond scarcity. We clearly see that replicators don't do *everything*--I imagine just like how some people prefer to have human-prepared and grown food, there are people who want hand-crafted furniture and whatnot--but then does everyone fall back on the barter system? Are their exchanges?

It also really bothers me that the Ferengi can even exist, or how there is apparently a thriving inter-species trade around and in the Federation. How do you prevent counterfeiting of gold-pressed latinum if you can replicate something to the presumable atomic level? It seems odd that the profit-hungry Ferengi would work on honor rules or a value system like humans still have.

Exactly, which is pretty much why they never really explain how it works. I remember the line in First Contact by Picard about eliminating money and disease so I'm curious as to how people go about 'paying' for things. We've seen more than one Earth bar - one I can remember was Tom Paris in Voyager playing pool. So, do they just go up and ask for a shot and get it? There's gotta be some form of commerce I would imagine. Kinda sucks there's no stores to browse in the future. What about work? If there's no money, can people just choose whether they want to work? If you do work, how do you get compensated? Do people who have a job just live a bit better than those who don't? So many stupid questions about future Earth, I have.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Exactly, which is pretty much why they never really explain how it works. I remember the line in First Contact by Picard about eliminating money and disease so I'm curious as to how people go about 'paying' for things. We've seen more than one Earth bar - one I can remember was Tom Paris in Voyager playing pool. So, do they just go up and ask for a shot and get it? There's gotta be some form of commerce I would imagine. Kinda sucks there's no stores to browse in the future. What about work? If there's no money, can people just choose whether they want to work? If you do work, how do you get compensated? Do people who have a job just live a bit better than those who don't? So many stupid questions about future Earth, I have.

Well, I always figured that with economics playing far less a role, society would naturally sway even more towards a meritocracy, at least in ideals. So you've got to be top of your class if you want to get into Starfleet (at least as an officer; I've always wish they explained more about how the NCO system works in Starfleet, because they can't *all* be in command positions, but I feel like aside from one-line "crewman" mentions, the curious case of O'brien's rank, and the crews in Meyer's Star Treks, we've never really gotten into that.) For certain occupations there will always be limits--only so many first violins in so many orchestras. I guess you can be lazy and just play Half-Life 3 on your Apple iPADDs if you want for the rest of your days. The only "resource" you really need is power to run a replicator, which doesn't seem to cost anything either, and shelter, which also doesn't seem to particularly be an issue even on Earth... although that leads into the question of who gets to live in Versailles versus a Manhattan shoebox.

Along the lines of counterfeited latinum, has their ever been an explanation for why dilithium is such a big deal? The principle of a replicator seems to me that matter is matter is matter, and the amount of energy it takes to convert x to y shouldn't be that different if you're turning matter into toast or a dilithium crystal. I guess in TOS we could assume that the tech wasn't sufficiently advanced to convert everything, but given what we see in the later series there doesn't seem to be any reason (aside from the aforementioned desire for "real" stuff) why it would be an issue.

Ugh, there's so much stuff that would be dreadful to talk about in the shows and movies but would be such fascinating fodder to suss out.

 

[maharg]

If I were running Star Trek the first thing I'd do is offer like a $10k prize to whoever could cook up the most reasonable explanation for how economics work in the 24th century where we've moved beyond scarcity. We clearly see that replicators don't do *everything*--I imagine just like how some people prefer to have human-prepared and grown food, there are people who want hand-crafted furniture and whatnot--but then does everyone fall back on the barter system? Are their exchanges?

It also really bothers me that the Ferengi can even exist, or how there is apparently a thriving inter-species trade around and in the Federation. How do you prevent counterfeiting of gold-pressed latinum if you can replicate something to the presumable atomic level? It seems odd that the profit-hungry Ferengi would work on honor rules or a value system like humans still have.

I think that, in truth, you can only really look to the first few seasons ot TNG to see an actual post-scarcity Trek universe, but it's a pretty limited perspective on it (on a quasi-military starship). But all these things about Gold Pressed Latinum and starfleet personnel engaging in trade and such came about after Roddenberry died and the Box was lifted a bit. TOS was likewise somewhat limited by what the network would let them get away with on a show that was, at the time, failing badly.

Remember that in their initial episodes, the Ferengi were intended to be villains. Their greed (and violence, in their very first) stood in opposition to Federation values. It wasn't really until DS9 that they became sympathetic, and DS9 has all sorts of contradictions with established Federation lore beyond that (popular as it is, I think it should be utterly uncontroversial to say that Roddenberry would not have approved).

 

[SeventhSon]

How did Sisko's father's restaurant business run if there was no money? Who went fishing and clamming to supply the restaurant with real fish and clams, and why? There's no money, so you couldn't pay someone, etc.

That always bugged me.

 

[Fuchsdh]

How did Sisko's father's restaurant business run if there was no money? Who went fishing and clamming to supply the restaurant with real fish and clams, and why? There's no money, so you couldn't pay someone, etc.

That always bugged me.

Still going to be people who like fishing, I guess. Maybe they give up their catches?

Spoiler

Crazy people.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

How did Sisko's father's restaurant business run if there was no money? Who went fishing and clamming to supply the restaurant with real fish and clams, and why? There's no money, so you couldn't pay someone, etc.

That always bugged me.

Right. I just assume you just walk in and order food without paying for it. I'm guessing someone just happily volunteers their time to fish unless they replicate raw materials and then cook it from there.

However, here's a funny catch. It was mentioned in one of the episodes of one of the shows humans no longer kill animals for food. So, if someone is fishing then that goes against everything they said.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

 

[firehawk12]

What was worse about the culture thing is that on Enterprise, Archer was only interested in 1960s movies that Paramount produced (so that they could show them on TV). lol

I know it's impossible to invent 200 years of artistic output and make it seem reasonable, but the fact that no one was interested in any art, music, literature, "film", "games", whatever from the 21st, 22nd, and even 23rd century was just really weird.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

What was worse about the culture thing is that on Enterprise, Archer was only interested in 1960s movies that Paramount produced (so that they could show them on TV). lol

I know it's impossible to invent 200 years of artistic output and make it seem reasonable, but the fact that no one was interested in any art, music, literature, "film", "games", whatever from the 21st, 22nd, and even 23rd century was just really weird.

Didn't they mention watching The Exorcist? I thought that was kind of cool since it's a movie from the 1970's but it's also an 'R' rated movie that has content that would still shock people today.

Punk music and style has been referenced at least twice. Once in Star Trek IV and in the one Voyager episode where they go back to the 90's and meet Sarah Silverman. That's one of my favorite Voyager episodes, btw.

But yeah, Paramount. LOL. I believe there was a ship or shuttlecraft called the USS Indiana Jones. That's awesome but I know for a fact that series is owned by Paramount if not just because of the transition at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

But then again, R2-D2 makes an appearance in Into Darkness. Apparently, that's an Abrams staple. lol.

 

[firehawk12]

Wait, like, the actual R2-D2 model/robot was in Into Darkness? lol

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Wait, like, the actual R2-D2 model/robot was in Into Darkness? lol

It's an Easter Egg but yes, he's floating in space. They actually had the Millenium Falcon appear in First Contact way in the background when they were fighting the Borg cube too. There was even a "Skywalker Divison" that builds starships.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Popular_culture_references_in_Star_Trek#Star_Wars

 

[firehawk12]

It's an Easter Egg but yes, he's floating in space. They actually had the Millenium Falcon appear in First Contact way in the background when they were fighting the Borg cube too. There was even a "Skywalker Divison" that builds starships.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Popu...Trek#Star_Wars

Ah, of course. lol

I was thinking that Kirk bumped into a robot and it beeped at him and I totally blanked or something!

 

[brian577]

How do you prevent counterfeiting of gold-pressed latinum if you can replicate something to the presumable atomic level? It seems odd that the profit-hungry Ferengi would work on honor rules or a value system like humans still have.

It was established in DS9 that certain things (like latinum) can't be replicated presumably because their atomic structure is too complex.

What was worse about the culture thing is that on Enterprise, Archer was only interested in 1960s movies that Paramount produced (so that they could show them on TV). lol

I know it's impossible to invent 200 years of artistic output and make it seem reasonable, but the fact that no one was interested in any art, music, literature, "film", "games", whatever from the 21st, 22nd, and even 23rd century was just really weird.

They did mention the Academy Awards and a "World War III epic" in the episode Home, so at the very least the movie industry existed in the 22nd century.

 

[DrForester]

DS9 also seemed to indicate that Latinum is a rare substance as well, given how little of it Morn gave to Quark, yet it was worth 100 bricks.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

So, what's some of everyone's favorite alien races that have appeared?

Here's mine.

Cytoplasmic lifeform

Tholian

Species 8472

Xindi

Melkotian

Ba'neth

 

[Fuchsdh]

It was established in DS9 that certain things (like latinum) can't be replicated presumably because their atomic structure is too complex.



They did mention the Academy Awards and a "World War III epic" in the episode Home, so at the very least the movie industry existed in the 22nd century.

Yeah they could probably do a better job, but I think it's more people just not remembering they ever did it because the old time movies stick out a lot more (after all they can show that stuff for free or whatnot.)

What was worse about the culture thing is that on Enterprise, Archer was only interested in 1960s movies that Paramount produced (so that they could show them on TV). lol

I know it's impossible to invent 200 years of artistic output and make it seem reasonable, but the fact that no one was interested in any art, music, literature, "film", "games", whatever from the 21st, 22nd, and even 23rd century was just really weird.

Well, we did see plenty of holodeck games and hear about holonovels, as well as dom jot, barokie, tongo, and kadis-kot off the top of my head. Oh, and whatever that team sport was that everyone was supposed to get hurt doing.

 

[Henchmen21]

Yeah they could probably do a better job, but I think it's more people just not remembering they ever did it because the old time movies stick out a lot more (after all they can show that stuff for free or whatnot.)



Well, we did see plenty of holodeck games and hear about holonovels, as well as dom jot, barokie, tongo, and kadis-kot off the top of my head. Oh, and whatever that team sport was that everyone was supposed to get hurt doing.

Parrises Squares

 

[funkystudent]

I forgot that I really liked The Undiscovered country.


I like how the federation ships a weird cruise ship / hotel vibe.

 

[AnotherNils]

If I were running Star Trek the first thing I'd do is offer like a $10k prize to whoever could cook up the most reasonable explanation for how economics work in the 24th century where we've moved beyond scarcity. We clearly see that replicators don't do *everything*--I imagine just like how some people prefer to have human-prepared and grown food, there are people who want hand-crafted furniture and whatnot--but then does everyone fall back on the barter system? Are their exchanges

This was one of the more subtle messes in DS9. There's an entire episode about Jake and Nog trying to get a baseball card for Captain Sisko, but they don't have money. Meanwhile, somehow Starfleet Officers can drink at Quark's.

I do think part of Starfleet's underlying economics is they ration or allot resources. Sisko talks about using a "month's worth of transporter credits" going home to eat when he was at Starfleet Academy.Perhaps there's a large trade system where people trade one type of credit they don't use for another.

 

[Walshicus]

This was one of the more subtle messes in DS9. There's an entire episode about Jake and Nog trying to get a baseball card for Captain Sisko, but they don't have money. Meanwhile, somehow Starfleet Officers can drink at Quark's.

I do think part of Starfleet's underlying economics is they ration or allot resources. Sisko talks about using a "month's worth of transporter credits" going home to eat when he was at Starfleet Academy.Perhaps there's a large trade system where people trade one type of credit they don't use for another.

I'd love to see something that reconciles the TV shows economics into a workable system, even a fan project. Politics too, now I think about it; how exactly is the Federation structured, are planets sovereign or is the Federation...

 

[Darkmakaimura]

My birthday is coming up in less than two weeks and something I've always wanted to do is go to Quark's at Star Trek: The Experience on my b-day. I live in Vegas so it sucks that the attraction is closed down. We've actually had lots of people at least wanting to reopen Quark's bar somewhere downtown. I'm regretting never having the opportunity to check Quark's out.

 

[DrForester]

Was a great place. I had the good fortune to be in Vegas for a business trip the week it closed. Wish I could go back.

 

[maharg]

This was one of the more subtle messes in DS9. There's an entire episode about Jake and Nog trying to get a baseball card for Captain Sisko, but they don't have money. Meanwhile, somehow Starfleet Officers can drink at Quark's.

I do think part of Starfleet's underlying economics is they ration or allot resources. Sisko talks about using a "month's worth of transporter credits" going home to eat when he was at Starfleet Academy.Perhaps there's a large trade system where people trade one type of credit they don't use for another.

Like I said above, the idea of the federation being truly post-scarcity had clearly been abandoned by DS9. There's not point in trying to reconcile it, it was part of the Roddenberry Box.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Like I said above, the idea of the federation being truly post-scarcity had clearly been abandoned by DS9. There's not point in trying to reconcile it, it was part of the Roddenberry Box.

Couldn't you just argue that DS9 was such an eclectic place that it resulted in non-traditional Federation practices, and said practices were kept in place in order to preserve some sense of stability?

It's been several years since I went through DS9 so I might be missing some glaring episodes that would contradict this, but I always just assumed that stuff like Sisko's father's restaurant and Picard's family vineyard was a product of people being able to do whatever they wanted with their time. Robots could have done the fishing for the restaurant and most of the maintenance for the farm.

Perhaps the Federation still had a currency it used to trade with other cultures like the Ferengi, and that currency eventually found its way into limited circulation at DS9 resulting in some sort of mixed economy. Somewhat similar to how to Jedi were given seemingly unlimited Republic credits when they went on missions for the Republic.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

How did Barclay ever get into Starfleet? I have severe general and social anxiety and I'm not as bad as that guy. He needs a serious Alprazolam prescription. I mean, seriously, how is it this guy even made it through the academy?

 

[oracrest]

How did Barclay ever get into Starfleet? I have severe general and social anxiety and I'm not as bad as that guy. He needs a serious Alprazolam prescription. I mean, seriously, how is it this guy even made it through the academy?

My guess would be that in starfleet, he could focus on the education, and have thoughts of being in a better situation once he had graduated.

But upon getting to the enterprise, he finds that the situation wasn't as free of anxiety as he thought, and when people start to snicker at him, he just gets worse and worse, and retreats into the holodeck.

 

[GungHo]

Parrises Squares

In my mind, it was a combination of hockey and Parcheesi

 

[Henchmen21]

How did Barclay ever get into Starfleet? I have severe general and social anxiety and I'm not as bad as that guy. He needs a serious Alprazolam prescription. I mean, seriously, how is it this guy even made it through the academy?

What? You've never heard of people who coast in life? He's proven that once he gets past his social phobias he's actually a good engineer.

In my mind, it was a combination of hockey and Parcheesi

It's probably going to be one of those things we never see. Like what Vera/Maris looks like on Cheers/Frasier.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

What? You've never heard of people who coast in life? He's proven that once he gets past his social phobias he's actually a good engineer.

I wish I could. I have serious anxiety. In fact, while it seems I'm knocking on Barclay, I can actually relate to him and he's probably the closest I would be to a Star Trek character. If I were a Star Trek character, I would be Barclay but without the brilliance. That's just kind of sad.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

BTW, figured I share this with all of you since I just remembered it.

Back in May, the show Coast to Coast AM did a whole show on Star Trek. You can hear it in its entirety here without commercial interruption:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc2r9rmR9XE

The link above has YouTube commercials. This one below should be completely ad free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj5pPmcK7Sk

 

[The Real Abed]

Has anyone posted this yet? DayJob Orchestra is back with a new TNG episode:

Break Something

They're always hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dayjoborchestra/videos

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

For some reason I never watched Voyager's Year of Hell before.

That's a pretty decent two-parter.

Worst/best thing about it is the doctor declaring Janeway unfit for command, but it happens in a timeline that gets erased so...

 

[Battersea Power Station]

I'm continuing my trudge through Seasons 1 and 2 of DS9, despite most people's warnings. I just want to experience it as if it was on TV, frustrations and excitement and everything.

And, boy, was last night frustrating.

S02E06 - Melora

Ffffuuuuuuuuuu

This one hurt me right in the sci-fi part of the brain. The whole concept of the chair and crappy exoskeleton seemed really primitive. Even if I accepted that they just wanted to shoehorn some plot about a handicapped person in there to try to relate to current society, it was a bad plot. There was no nuance or meaningful exploration at all.

Also, Bashir was amazed at flying around in a low gravity environment. Are you kidding me? Anti-grav training is not a 101 course at Starfleet Academy? You've never turned off the gravity field in a shuttle? You've never visited a moon? You've never simulated a low-g environment in the holosuite? WHAT?

This was infuriating. Like worse than "come along home" levels, I think.

"You let me fly for the first time; I let you walk." *insert gun in mouth*

Why was Melora flying around anyway? If she grew up in that gravity, and her muscles are too weak to support her in a class M environment, then her muscles have probably developed to only be able to walk on her native planet. She shouldn't be as strong as Bashir when it comes to jumping up to the ceiling or whatever. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.

Bad.

To top it off, it has the worst member of the Funny Nose Brigade I've seen to date, Fallit Kot:

Whoever wrote this should feel really, really bad. Bad.

 

[Henchmen21]

The only memorable thing about Melora was that Daphne Ashbrook was also Grace in the '96 Doctor Who TV movie.

 

[Kimaka]

Melora never bothered me. Its not great but I can get through it unlike Angel One and Code of Honor. At least Melora has the Klingon Chef.

 

[AnotherNils]

This guy's eyes reminded me of Crazy Joe Devola from Seinfeld, look it up, it's crazy Joe Devola. You're stapler nose can't hide your crazy eyes!

 

[Aiustis]

So I was at the symphony last night and it was a tribute to scifi and the second half was all star trek music...hosted by George Takei.

 

[DrForester]

I never found Melora bad or offensive, just bland and forgetable.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

I never found Melora bad or offensive, just bland and forgetable.

Yes! Offensive is exactly what I did feel when I watched it. I am offended that a fleet of space explorers have not experienced zero-g. Also, it's ridiculous that Melora's and Bashir's strength were the same in a low gravity environment.

As an episode of Law & Order: Interstellar Division or House: In Space, yes, forgettable episode. But for a science fiction show, it was horrific to me.

 

[brian577]

Yes! Offensive is exactly what I did feel when I watched it. I am offended that a fleet of space explorers have not experienced zero-g. Also, it's ridiculous that Melora's and Bashir's strength were the same in a low gravity environment.

As an episode of Law & Order: Interstellar Division or House: In Space, yes, forgettable episode. But for a science fiction show, it was horrific to me.

It's strange because Worf mentions zero-g training in Star Trek: First Contact.

 

[Fuchsdh]

It's strange because Worf mentions zero-g training in Star Trek: First Contact.

They would obviously undergo some zero-G training, if only because you'd expect in actual space combat (unconstrained by budgetary restrictions) artificial gravity would be a major casualty if you lost main power.

 

[gdt]

So I'm starting Star Trek DS9...I've never seen any of these shows...but I'm interested in DS9 because of the comparisons to Babylon 5. long story arc based space sci fi is hard to find. When does the arc start to take over?

 

[DrForester]

So I'm starting Star Trek DS9...I've never seen any of these shows...but I'm interested in DS9 because of the comparisons to Babylon 5. long story arc based space sci fi is hard to find. When does the arc start to take over?

Arc starts in season 3.

I would highly recommend you watch TNG before DS9 to familiarize yourself with the Trek universe.

 

[gdt]

Arc starts in season 3.

I would highly recommend you watch TNG before DS9 to familiarize yourself with the Trek universe.

Ehh. No interest in a episodic show. I've seen both new movies and know a bit from just picking it up here and there.

 

[maharg]

So I'm starting Star Trek DS9...I've never seen any of these shows...but I'm interested in DS9 because of the comparisons to Babylon 5. long story arc based space sci fi is hard to find. When does the arc start to take over?

Skip the first two seasons.

Spoiler

Also wait for people to yell at me for saying this with lists of the actually worthwhile episodes in the first two seasons to watch.[notspoiler]

 

[DrForester]

No, you watch all of the first season and second. You can't appreciate later season Bashir without dealing with season 1 Bashir. And there are a few other characters that you really have to see from the start to appreciate how far they come in 7 years.