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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

Cheerilee

Member
I don't see why it would be so clear, the original enterprise was already being mothballed when Kirk stole it, they may already have been planning an Enterprise-A at that point.

The Constitution Class starships were cutting-edge in the early TOS era, and Starfleet apparently made a bunch of them, but 20 years later they were made obsolete by the Excelsior Class.

The original Enterprise racked up too much mileage and had accident damage thanks to Khan, so Starfleet wrote it off. I can't picture them jumping to build an obsolete vehicle from scratch. They did what anyone in love with a classic car does when it gets wrecked. Find a suitable used car, paint it to match the old paint, and slap the nostalgic license plates on the bumper. The VIN number might be new, but your beloved Connie has returned as Connie 2.0.

If Starfleet was going to make a new Enterprise from scratch, it most likely would've been an Excelsior Class, which it was (Enterprise B). Starfleet probably greenlit that plan as soon as they mothballed the original Enterprise. Then they decided to reward Kirk, so... let's scrounge up a classic Constitution for him and call it Enterprise.
 

maharg

idspispopd
The Constitution Class starships were cutting-edge in the early TOS era, and Starfleet apparently made a bunch of them, but 20 years later they were made obsolete by the Excelsior Class.

The original Enterprise racked up too much mileage and had accident damage thanks to Khan, so Starfleet wrote it off. I can't picture them jumping to build an obsolete vehicle from scratch. They did what anyone in love with a classic car does when it gets wrecked. Find a suitable used car, paint it to match the old paint, and slap the nostalgic license plates on the bumper. The VIN number might be new, but your beloved Connie has returned as Connie 2.0.

If Starfleet was going to make a new Enterprise from scratch, it most likely would've been an Excelsior Class, which it was (Enterprise B). Starfleet probably greenlit that plan as soon as they mothballed the original Enterprise. Then they decided to reward Kirk, so... let's scrounge up a classic Constitution for him and call it Enterprise.

My point is that every word of this is speculation (along with the idea that they were mothballing *all* constitution class ships in another post above, definitely not something said in the films), and builds inference on inference just to make it so that that one time someone said it was originally the Yorktown (apparently Gene? Who was basically shut out of the process of making the films at that point anyways) make sense. It's a conclusion-driven theory, begging the question.

Anyways, I'm gonna leave it at that. It'll just go in circles from here.
 

Cheerilee

Member
My point is that every word of this is speculation (along with the idea that they were mothballing *all* constitution class ships in another post above, definitely not something said in the films), and builds inference on inference just to make it so that that one time someone said it was originally the Yorktown (apparently Gene? Who was basically shut out of the process of making the films at that point anyways) make sense. It's a conclusion-driven theory, begging the question.

Anyways, I'm gonna leave it at that. It'll just go in circles from here.

I'd agree that it's speculation, but it's the theory that has the most weight to it.

When the Enterprise-A was revealed at the end of Star Trek IV, it wasn't clear where it came from. Did Starfleet build an exact replica of the Enterprise just for Jim Kirk? Or did they slap a new coat of paint on an old ship? It's never said, exactly.

But when Kirk was young, these ships were the top-of-the-line. Young Kirk doesn't give a damn about "old people" starships, he likes this new one because it's the latest and greatest. By the time of Star Trek III, Kirk is an old man (although he's feeling much younger), and then Starfleet tells him his ship is old. Starfleet is showing off it's new hotness, the Excelsior. People like Kirk and Scotty used to be edgy and cool, but now they look at their once-edgy old ships as "classics", and don't like the look of the new ones. The Excelsior is treated like an enemy. It's classic "old people" syndrome.

By Star Trek IV, they've cooled down a bit on their opposition to the Excelsior (it's not being actively painted as the enemy), and Sulu actually wants one (Scotty still calls it a bucket of bolts). It makes sense why Kirk wants a Constitution, but it doesn't make sense why Starfleet would build one, not while they still have several of them in service, and plenty of young people ready and eager to climb onboard the newer ships (even Sulu).

And then, by Star Trek VI, Kirk's Enterprise gets mothballed... again (Spock: Go to hell). And in very short order, "Enterprise" is reborn again as an Excelsior (Generations).

It seems as if most people are on the same page about the Enterprise-A, that it was a minor stopgap ship, probably secondhand with some upgrades to keep it relevant, declared to be "the Enterprise" in Jim Kirk's honor. It was "obvious" to some from the very beginning (it's the lowest-cost, fastest turnaround solution to finding a present for Kirk), Gene seems to have thought that's how it went, it seems to fit with the themes of some of the movies, and several different movies (with several different writers) seem to line up and make it seem logical. The Enterprise-A has a different interior, but that would seem to miss the point of a replica (Kirk: I miss my old chair...), and fit with the idea of finding a used car that's a close match for the old one.

I don't think Starfleet specifically ordered the mothballing of all of their Constitution class ships all at once, but after the Excelsior was introduced we saw two big examples of Starfleet refusing to repair spaceworthy Constitutions, choosing instead to mothball them. I think it's obvious that they intended to phase them out in favor of Excelsiors.
 

xclaw

Member
Want sure which thread to share this but found it to cool not to share.


LKfsAiW.jpg

https://twitter.com/AstroSamantha/status/589035429879513088
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
Finished DS9. The friends I got into the show this time around have officially joined the growing group of Niners I've proudly helped craft. 16 years post-finale and still my favorite series ever. I'll never forget the feelings when I watched it end for the first time. And man, that montage (as well as
the Kira/Odo farewell;
two of my favorite characters in Trek, argh) just hits me in the damned feels every. Single. Time.

I'm moving on to my first Enterprise rewatch soon. Haven't decided if I'll try showing it to those friends or actually watch something solo for a change. I remember loving Seasons 3 and 4 but even as a young teenager not finding Seasons 1 and 2 particularly compelling.
 
Speaking of Constitution class... I've started building Polar Lights' version, all 32 inches of it. Here's the bridge:

20150419_210802.jpg


20150419_211126.jpg


The kit provides options to place it on an angle (to match the turbolift door with the exterior), or straight as originally intended.

20150419_211337.jpg


20150419_211349.jpg
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
That's pretty rad. I've never been one to get into the hands-on side of the franchises I love, but I salute those who do. Right now all I have to celebrate my love of Trek is two posters and a complete set of Chinese knockoff DS9 figurines with bizarre poses and even stranger accessories.

So, I showed my friend the pilots for Voyager and Enterprise just now instead. She's gonna sleep on it and get back to me tomorrow on which show she'd rather watch first, so I guess that'll dictate how I go forward! I only just finished a Voyager rewatch relatively recently, but whatevs, I always prefer sharing what I love over going solo with it.

What are the thoughts here on Voyager and Enterprise? Are they the worst iterations to the fine folks of NeoGAF, or are there some outlier opinions to be found? I don't think there's a Trek series I dislike, but I can't remember much about Enterprise and I do think Voyager had some serious unevenness. Then again... they all did.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
That's pretty rad. I've never been one to get into the hands-on side of the franchises I love, but I salute those who do. Right now all I have to celebrate my love of Trek is two posters and a complete set of Chinese knockoff DS9 figurines with bizarre poses and even stranger accessories.

So, I showed my friend the pilots for Voyager and Enterprise just now instead. She's gonna sleep on it and get back to me tomorrow on which show she'd rather watch first, so I guess that'll dictate how I go forward! I only just finished a Voyager rewatch relatively recently, but whatevs, I always prefer sharing what I love over going solo with it.

What are the thoughts here on Voyager and Enterprise? Are they the worst iterations to the fine folks of NeoGAF, or are there some outlier opinions to be found? I don't think there's a Trek series I dislike, but I can't remember much about Enterprise and I do think Voyager had some serious unevenness. Then again... they all did.

I like Star Trek, and think the good in every series outweighs the bad. With that said, I don't think inflicting the poor or bad episodes of a series on anyone is a neighborly thing to do :) From a pure "plot down, watch an episode" standpoint I think Voyager is more watchable, just because while Janeway might act like a crazy evil person sometimes, Archer was just consistently annoying and boorish.
 

Walshicus

Member

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
So, my friend decided she wants to watch both Voyager and Enterprise at the same time, over a long period of time. Sounds good to me. Enterprise in particular is a show whose episodes I barely remember.

She asked me for details on the "feel" of the two shows before making her decision and was rather surprised when I said that Voyager is generally pretty light the whole way through. She said seeing several key command staff die in the premiere had her thinking it'd be the darker of the two spinoffs, to which I reminded her that that was only really done to grant Chakotay and Torres major roles. It's really interesting to hear stuff like that from people who don't know the franchise inside and out like we do.

In other news, "Star Trek Beyond" is the likely title for the thirteenth film! Ties in with Simon Pegg talking about how he wants the movie to explore the unknown, go "out there", adventure, that sort of thing. I've got faith [of the heart] that this one will be good.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You know, The Final Frontier made me realize, you really have no say in what your character does unless you're Shatner, Kelly or Nimoy.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I think the only time the secondary cast managed to do something they want was in the final film (like apparently Nicols didn't want to say a line in the film?)
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I think the only time the secondary cast managed to do something they want was in the final film (like apparently Nicols didn't want to say a line in the film?)

Nichols (and Brock Peters) were offended by some of the dialogue they were given. Nichols' line was “guess who’s coming to dinner”, which ended up going to Chekov (and I love his reading of it.) Peters didn’t actually refuse to say any of the lines, but he found them repugnant—Meyer was pretty clearly intending some of the talk about the Klingons to toe the line as speciesist, and Peters’ speech about how they should be eliminated is the most on-the-nose element to that.

I actually wonder how much of the obvious parallels would get read by the average young person watching the film now though—while racism is obviously still alive and kicking, I feel like the dialogues we have about it don't occur on the same plane of reference and might go over someone's head as to what the true parallel is. Hell I watched a ten year old completely miss the obvious race relations message in "Let that be your last battlefield", and that episode is often held up as the gold standard for awkwardly forced Star Trek messages.

When I think about it, I really think Star Trek VI has some of the most useful themes of the entire series, definitely of the feature films. It's not afraid to show Kirk and co. as flawed, but always striving to be better, and I think that type of realism-meets-optimism is something that Roddenberry hated but I think is the most realistic way of approaching Trek.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah I agree, in some ways Roddenberry was kinda holding back the franchise a bit on his utopian view, though justified on how it is an optimistic PoV.

Still, it does confirm me that the secondaries aren't really much given a choice or opinion on what their characters should do. Sucks. Were the later generation cast given more wiggle room?
 
Yeah I agree, in some ways Roddenberry was kinda holding back the franchise a bit on his utopian view, though justified on how it is an optimistic PoV.

Still, it does confirm me that the secondaries aren't really much given a choice or opinion on what their characters should do. Sucks. Were the later generation cast given more wiggle room?

Patrick Stewart at least did, he wanted Picard to be an action hero, and that didn't work so well. The rest probably didn't care as much and were just happy to be there.

I don't think Roddenberry was holding back the franchise, rather other people were trying to guess what he would say on whatever issue, and this ended up having a kind of self censoring effect on people.

During the TOS era, Gene L. Coon was showrunner during the best period of the series, and before he came aboard the stories weren't really that great. It almost feels like Roddenberry was the idea man, who always needed a good showrunner to take care of the details he didn't want to worry about.

Gene L. Coon also helped to develop the story line for the original Battlestar Galactica, so his contribution to TV scifi is quite remarkable.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Patrick Stewart at least did, he wanted Picard to be an action hero, and that didn't work so well. The rest probably didn't care as much and were just happy to be there.

Eh I think Picard actually worked pretty well as an action hero. But Stewart wanted a love interest in his next feature film, which was just another rotten cherry on the general effluence of Insurrection. So we can definitely blame him for that.
 
Eh I think Picard actually worked pretty well as an action hero. But Stewart wanted a love interest in his next feature film, which was just another rotten cherry on the general effluence of Insurrection. So we can definitely blame him for that.

Have you forgotten the dune buggy scene in Nemesis? I wish I had too...
 

teiresias

Member
The worst thing about the TNG films is the complete ditching of the ensemble of the television show and making Picard and Data explicit lead characters, particularly when both had had major arcs done to death in the TV show. I've never understood why it was so difficult to get the crew broken up into different groups doing different things to make the films more ensemble-centric. First Contact was definitely the best at that having those on the ship and those on Earth have different stories. Crusher always got shorted though.
 
Speaking of Constitution class... I've started building Polar Lights' version, all 32 inches of it. Here's the bridge:

20150419_210802.jpg

I hadn't thought about it much before, but it is kind of odd that the bridge set had the turbo lift offset like that. I wonder if it was done that way way to facilitate camera angles -- being able to film the captain in his chair from a three-quarter view and still get the turbo lift doors in the frame for character entrances. And also making it easier for the captain to turn and converse with someone coming off of the lift and not have them walk in directly behind him.
 

Sephzilla

Member
The worst thing about the TNG films is the complete ditching of the ensemble of the television show and making Picard and Data explicit lead characters, particularly when both had had major arcs done to death in the TV show. I've never understood why it was so difficult to get the crew broken up into different groups doing different things to make the films more ensemble-centric. First Contact was definitely the best at that having those on the ship and those on Earth have different stories. Crusher always got shorted though.

Agreed. First Contact did the ensemble bit well but the other movies did not. For what it's worth I still liked the Picard/Data stuff in Generations.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Picard and Data were the most interesting characters, so they had more written for them, which made them more interesting characters. It's easy to have a sort of "death spiral" for characters from lack of exposure.

What was weird with Data though is that they sort of repeated the same stories again and again in the films, and with stuff like "playing like a kid!" in Insurrection and B-4 in Nemesis infantilized him.
 
I hadn't thought about it much before, but it is kind of odd that the bridge set had the turbo lift offset like that. I wonder if it was done that way way to facilitate camera angles -- being able to film the captain in his chair from a three-quarter view and still get the turbo lift doors in the frame for character entrances. And also making it easier for the captain to turn and converse with someone coming off of the lift and not have them walk in directly behind him.

Yeah, I think you're spot on. Trouble is it conflicted with the Enterprise model, so us modelers are left with a bit of a dilemma.

I've decided to put it in on an angle, that's how I've known it ever since getting my copy of Franz Joseph's famous blueprints.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Action hero Picard worked in First Contact
The Red Letter Media review of First Contact convinced me that the film is as bad as the other TNG films. It's just so out of character for Picard, and just continues the slide of totally wiping out what we know of him for the sake of having him try to be an action man.
 

maharg

idspispopd
The Red Letter Media review of First Contact convinced me that the film is as bad as the other TNG films. It's just so out of character for Picard, and just continues the slide of totally wiping out what we know of him for the sake of having him try to be an action man.

Yep. There are no good TNG movies.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I enjoy the RLM review of First Contact, but I still find it to be a really fun film to watch.
I think of it as an interesting footnote in the Braga/Moore relationship before they seemingly turned on each other after their split working on the two different shows. All Good Things is still their best "movie" though.

Yep. There are no good TNG movies.
It's sad that we never got a more fun space adventure ala Star Trek 4 out of the TNG crew.
 
The Red Letter Media review of First Contact convinced me that the film is as bad as the other TNG films. It's just so out of character for Picard, and just continues the slide of totally wiping out what we know of him for the sake of having him try to be an action man.

I didn't need any convincing from RLM to figure out FC was bad.

It wasn't just Picard being out of character, there was the whole concept of the Borg Queen, the Borg Cube having zero ability to adapt to weapons... it got everything wrong.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I didn't need any convincing from RLM to figure out FC was bad.

It wasn't just Picard being out of character, there was the whole concept of the Borg Queen, the Borg Cube having zero ability to adapt to weapons... it got everything wrong.
As a kid who watched the movie on opening day, it was awesome. lol
That probably coloured how I viewed the film for a long time.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I didn't need any convincing from RLM to figure out FC was bad.

It wasn't just Picard being out of character, there was the whole concept of the Borg Queen, the Borg Cube having zero ability to adapt to weapons... it got everything wrong.

I still don't see how Picard is out of character. He comes face to face with the force that destroyed his life and indirectly made him responsible for the deaths of thousands of his compatriots, and very nearly his entire planet. He's forgiven for being a bit off keel.

Red Letter Media really needs to stop being the be-all and end-all of film criticism. Saying things like Buffalo Bill and going on about "Protaaaagonists" doesn't make their every point valid.
 
I still don't see how Picard is out of character. He comes face to face with the force that destroyed his life and indirectly made him responsible for the deaths of thousands of his compatriots, and very nearly his entire planet. He's forgiven for being a bit off keel.

Red Letter Media really needs to stop being the be-all and end-all of film criticism. Saying things like Buffalo Bill and going on about "Protaaaagonists" doesn't make their every point valid.

Cause he already dealt with that issue in "I, Borg" and "Descent" and his character had moved on. FC reversed all of that development and treated us like idiots.

And I never cared for "Starship Mine" and action hero Picard is dumb. There was a reason Riker was made to be the dashing first officer who went down on away missions while the Captain stayed on the bridge. Picard's supposed to be the thoughtful diplomat, the elder statesman. He's not supposed to be Kirk, and trying to force that peg into a square hole is a travesty.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Cause he already dealt with that issue in "I, Borg" and "Descent" and his character had moved on. FC reversed all of that development and treated us like idiots.

And I never cared for "Starship Mine" and action hero Picard is dumb. There was a reason Riker was made to be the dashing first officer who went down on away missions while the Captain stayed on the bridge. Picard's supposed to be the thoughtful diplomat, the elder statesman. He's not supposed to be Kirk, and trying to force that peg into a square hole is a travesty.

Big difference I would say is that in those cases, the Borg are not attacking Earth. There were few casualties, and it was far less personal. In FC, the Borg are attacking Earth for the first time since BOBW.
 
Big difference I would say is that in those cases, the Borg are not attacking Earth. There were few casualties, and it was far less personal. In FC, the Borg are attacking Earth for the first time since BOBW.

So Picard is a guy who only cares about Earth. He doesn't care about the Borg doing horrible stuff to other planets or people, but it all changes when it comes to Earth. Picard is an Earth first kinda guy.

Yeah, I don't buy this at all.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
So Picard is a guy who only cares about Earth. He doesn't care about the Borg doing horrible stuff to other planets or people, but it all changes when it comes to Earth. Picard is an Earth first kinda guy.

Yeah, I don't buy this at all.

Hits a lot closer to home than an encounter with just one Borg or a Crazy Android.
 

Cheerilee

Member
I still don't see how Picard is out of character. He comes face to face with the force that destroyed his life and indirectly made him responsible for the deaths of thousands of his compatriots, and very nearly his entire planet. He's forgiven for being a bit off keel.
The Borg hurt Picard, so he took some time off, visited some family, had a good cry, and then got over it and went back to work.

In "I Borg", he met a wounded Borg and calmly and coldly wanted to use it as a tool to genocide their entire race. His crew (even Guinan, whose people were wiped out by the Borg) convinced him that this was wrong, and eventually he came to agree.

When he next came up against the Borg invading Federation space, Starfleet chewed out Picard, accusing him of not genociding the Borg because he was a whiny little bitch who was scared of them. He calmly responded that no, he's just a man of principles, and he won't do things that he thinks are wrong. That was good enough for Starfleet, so they let him in on the Borg hunt, which he did without issue.

In First Contact, Starfleet now believes that Picard is a loose cannon, and that he shouldn't be allowed near the Borg because he's going to lose his cool. And somehow they're right, because that's exactly what he did. He became a raving lunatic, demanding that his men fight the Borg barehanded and get assimilated in a futile attempt to win a hopelessly unwinnable battle, screaming while delivering "mercy killings" to his crew, calling them cowards when they protested and provided alternative strategies, screaming and smashing shit. Instead of retreating to the escape pods and self-destructing his ship to quickly and effectively preserve humanity and the timeline, he's throwing the lives of his crew away, because he wants to beat the Borg up-close and personal, because "I will make them pay".

It only really works if you ignore Picard's character after Best of Both Worlds.

Red Letter Media really needs to stop being the be-all and end-all of film criticism. Saying things like Buffalo Bill and going on about "Protaaaagonists" doesn't make their every point valid.

RLM gets referenced a lot because they make convincing arguments. They use humor because you need comic relief if you're going to talk about a thing for 35 minutes nonstop. Chuck from SFDebris also spent 35 minutes reviewing First Contact, and he also uses humor. Chuck specifically didn't watch the Plinkett review before making his own, and he ended up with a number of the same complaints that Plinkett did, he accepted some things Plinkett didn't, and he had some entirely different complaints. He called it "stupid fun" and gave it an 8/10.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Why does it seem like there's a lot of RLM hate on Gaf lately? Have they hit that point where they're so popular people hate on them because so many people know of them?
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
The Borg hurt Picard, so he took some time off, visited some family, had a good cry, and then got over it and went back to work.

In "I Borg", he met a wounded Borg and calmly and coldly wanted to use it as a tool to genocide their entire race. His crew (even Guinan, whose people were wiped out by the Borg) convinced him that this was wrong, and eventually he came to agree.

When he next came up against the Borg invading Federation space, Starfleet chewed out Picard, accusing him of not genociding the Borg because he was a whiny little bitch who was scared of them. He calmly responded that no, he's just a man of principles, and he won't do things that he thinks are wrong. That was good enough for Starfleet, so they let him in on the Borg hunt, which he did without issue.

In First Contact, Starfleet now believes that Picard is a loose cannon, and that he shouldn't be allowed near the Borg because he's going to lose his cool. And somehow they're right, because that's exactly what he did. He became a raving lunatic, demanding that his men fight the Borg barehanded and get assimilated in a futile attempt to win a hopelessly unwinnable battle, screaming while delivering "mercy killings" to his crew, calling them cowards when they protested and provided alternative strategies, screaming and smashing shit. Instead of retreating to the escape pods and self-destructing his ship to quickly and effectively preserve humanity and the timeline, he's throwing the lives of his crew away, because he wants to beat the Borg up-close and personal, because "I will make them pay".

It only really works if you ignore Picard's character after Best of Both Worlds.



RLM gets referenced a lot because they make convincing arguments. They use humor because you need comic relief if you're going to talk about a thing for 35 minutes nonstop. Chuck from SFDebris also spent 35 minutes reviewing First Contact, and he also uses humor. Chuck specifically didn't watch the Plinkett review before making his own, and he ended up with a number of the same complaints that Plinkett did, he accepted some things Plinkett didn't, and he had some entirely different complaints. He called it "stupid fun" and gave it an 8/10.

I think he did watch the Plinkett reviews. At least with his Generations review he specifically mentions that he's not going to call out the production changes like the lighting and props.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I'll echo what I've said in the past - First Contact is a lot better if you pretend it takes place right after Best of Both Worlds when Picard would actually be in that mental state
 

Cheerilee

Member
I think he did watch the Plinkett reviews. At least with his Generations review he specifically mentions that he's not going to call out the production changes like the lighting and props.

He prefaces his Generations review by saying "Unlike most of the material we cover, this film has been commented on a great deal by others. I've made the conscious decision to not find out what those others have said. This is not my doctoral thesis in dork studies, where I'll be assembling a cited reference sheet to indicate where I have built upon the works of others, or tried to avoid repetition. To hell with that, that's starting to sound like a real job, and I've already outsourced most of my work to India to avoid that kind of thing. So this week, you get what you always get, which is an opinionated look at a Star Trek work, it's just that other people have been doing the same thing. Maybe theirs is better, but I can at least take comfort in knowing that while I may suck, I make up for it by being horribly lazy."

Previous to this, Chuck had his niche doing Opinionated Star Trek Reviews, and then Mr Plinkett came out of nowhere with his "Why am I reviewing a 14 year old movie? Well the truth is, I've got nothing better to do" review of Generations and the subsequent TNG movies, before becoming super-popular with the 90-minute Phantom Menace review.

So while Chuck doesn't call out Mr Plinkett by name, when he says "this film has been commented on a great deal" and "theirs might be better than mine", I think it's clear that he's talking about the Plinkett reviews. There's nobody else at this level (then or now), and the TNG movies were obviously on Chuck's to-do list when Plinkett happened, so he deliberately avoided watching them, because he knew it would be easier to write his reviews blind than it would be to properly follow someone else's review.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
When does Nemesis takes place? I mean Jen is an admiral.

2379. She got promoted quickly.

Why does it seem like there's a lot of RLM hate on Gaf lately? Have they hit that point where they're so popular people hate on them because so many people know of them?

They're just overused as a point of film criticism. I don't hate them, I hate how they're positioned as some kind of trump card when talking about things. Their Phantom Menace review I think is most emblematic, because they spend all this time talking about how the issue with the film is that it doesn't have a protagonist, and the issue with the film is pretty much everything else. Missing the forest for the trees.
 
I really wish they Sisko would have had some role in First Contact.

Thinking about it, maybe Sisko should have had Picard's role. Sisko's reaction and orders would be closer to his character traits than Picard's. Hell, we have even seen it before in various DS9 episodes, "For the Uniform" and "In the Pale Moonlight" specifically. But, at the same time, he never seemed to be that angry toward the Borg, instead his rage was focused at Picard/Locutus.
 
I'll echo what I've said in the past - First Contact is a lot better if you pretend it takes place right after Best of Both Worlds when Picard would actually be in that mental state

I'm reminded of how Serenity, as much as I enjoyed it, doesn't make sense as a direct follow on to Firefly because in the series
the captain and Jayne had already accepted River and Simon as part of the crew,
but in the movie
they were still seen as outsiders. That is, until the end when they finally were accepted, recapitulating the character arc we had already seen in the series.

Whedon did acknowledge that issue by saying Serenity was never intended as a straight-up sequel to Firefly (that's why it wasn't called Firefly: The Movie), but rather that the movie was the Firefly universe seen through a slightly different lens from a slightly different perspective. IIRC.
 
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