firehawk12
Subete no aware
I can't imagine they'd hold up sadly.
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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
It could have been worse. They could have gone with Balok or the Gorn Captain. Or maybe that dude that looked like a budget Ming the Merciless from the Gamesters of Triskelion.
You say this like it turned out badly.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Oh, it didn't. I liked it. But, folks were wondering about the process of just picking a nemesis from the back catalog and while it was strange, we got lucky. I'd also have been okay with Kang, Kor, or Female Romulan Commander. Female Romulan Commander would have been great, though I'd hope they wouldn't make her moony about Spock and instead furious.
I'd like to imagine she'd give Khan a run for his money for being incredibly bitter and vengeful. Although I think Spock might remember a bit better than Kirk who the hell she was.
It is a fair point I hadn't considered thoughI guess trying to think like a studio head that the Klingons or Romulans would have been the "obvious" choice for movie antagonists.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wasn't there a prominent recurring Klingon adversary that butt heads with Kirk? Then again if he was in II he would have been killed and we wouldn't see him in Generations.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Also we probably wouldn't have had Christopher Lloyd's Kruge in ST III, if ST II also had an Klingon opponent. And that character was in my opinion better than the Klingons in any of the TV series. Maybe not Worf, but he had much more screen time.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
There weren't any recurring villains IIRC. Just a bunch of different Klingon captains. They all reunite in the DS9 episode Bloodoath, complete with the same actors reprising their roles.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
No. There were three big Klingon adversaries, but they were more or less one-shots.
Kor was in one TOS episode and a TAS episode (and TAS wasn't well thought of at that time). Kang was just in one TOS episode (he should have been Kor, but there was a scheduling conflict). Koloth was just in the Tribbles episode, though he was intended to be in more episodes. They were all three in DS9.
Kor really guided the conception of the Proud Warrior Race Klingons, but that didn't really take off until TNG. Kang was more or less just an asshole. Koloth could have turned out well, and William Campbell was interested in being a long-running antagonist, but they ended up just having him whine about being persecuted and they never saw him again.
Tumblr has redeemed itself in my eyes.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Movie 3 gets too much flak and so I made a thread to rectify it.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Just rewatched "Tapestry". Conceptually it's very cool, everyone gives a good performance, but it's not really clear what the takeaway is. Okay, so Picard had to be a brash impulsive young man to learn the lessons he needed to learn to become the man he is today. That's reasonable. But Picard didn't ask Q to go back and relive the event and do it differently; Q asked him. There's no evidence Picard didn't realize that his formative years were important to begin with. Q tells him he has to go back to his youth and change this event or he will die. So he does. Then Q says "Hahaha you wanted to change that event? Look how shit your life would be". Who's learning the lesson? What is the lesson??
Also, almost nothing of what happens really makes sense. I get that his buddy is a hothead trying to stir up shit with the Naussican. That makes sense. But Picard tries to stop him by saying "It's not worth it" "Nah, don't worry about it" "We might get in trouble". How about make it clear? "I saw that Naussican sharpening his knife, he's literally going to stab you to death if you fuck with him." How about "They have disruptors" How about "That guy's a known contract killer". Picard doesn't even attempt to make the case for why they shouldn't hustle the Naussican. No wonder his friend felt he didn't have his back.
His female friend spends the first half of the episode hitting on him like a hammer. She obviously has feelings for him. So, having changed history a little, he decides to sleep with her. The morning after she says "Well even though I initiated this we aren't friends anymore byyyyyyye". The scene doesn't really make any sense. It feels like something was cut out. Which it was; according to production notes for the episode from Captains Logs, the actress originally had a monologue where she talked about her self-doubt and how she admired Picard and a bunch of other stuff. The actress herself is happy it was cut because the tone was whiny, but I think as-is the scene doesn't play very well.
We flash forward to the alternate future. Picard is a Lieutenant JG on the Enterprise. He's instantly disappointed. And no doubt that's a real disappointment; if you could teleport Obama to an alternate world where he's still a State Senator, he'd probably be crushed. But the show becomes unusually mean-spirited about it way too quickly. Picard asks Riker and Troi to evaluate alterna-him as an officer, and they say he's good but... lacks direction and focus and they don't see him moving up the ranks. Frankly, Lieutenant JG on the flagship of the Federation is not a bad gig. I see why Picard would say it was. I get why he's crushed. But it's weird for Riker and Troi to treat him like a lifer with no chance of accomplishing anything when he's already elite among his peers. It's also weird that we he says he wants to prove himself worthy of more, their immediate reaction is to tell him straight up "I doubt it" and crush his dreams.
Definitely the episode is more than the sum of its parts, it's pretty resonant, it's a great episode like I remember. But I'm not sure it succeeds on the level that something like The Inner Light or Chain of Command II does. The original draft of the script was full blown "this was your life" / "a christmas carol" where Q guided Picard through major moments in his life. There was a scene on the Stargazer with Jack Crusher. In script revisions, Michael Piller argued that it was senseless to just relive these moments, and they should try to incorporate a moral element. Then they narrowed down to the Naussican stabbing. But I'm not sure they got the moral--what's the moral? What Picard already knew, that he was who he was because of the sum of choices he made in his life? We know this. When he tells Wesley about his misbehaving youth in earlier episodes, he recognizes that it made him who he was. When he talks to Boothby, he seems to be able to reflect on who he is. Is this guy who really needs a self-confidence boost? *shrugs*
Also, almost nothing of what happens really makes sense. I get that his buddy is a hothead trying to stir up shit with the Naussican. That makes sense. But Picard tries to stop him by saying "It's not worth it" "Nah, don't worry about it" "We might get in trouble". How about make it clear? "I saw that Naussican sharpening his knife, he's literally going to stab you to death if you fuck with him." How about "They have disruptors" How about "That guy's a known contract killer". Picard doesn't even attempt to make the case for why they shouldn't hustle the Naussican. No wonder his friend felt he didn't have his back.
His female friend spends the first half of the episode hitting on him like a hammer. She obviously has feelings for him. So, having changed history a little, he decides to sleep with her. The morning after she says "Well even though I initiated this we aren't friends anymore byyyyyyye". The scene doesn't really make any sense. It feels like something was cut out. Which it was; according to production notes for the episode from Captains Logs, the actress originally had a monologue where she talked about her self-doubt and how she admired Picard and a bunch of other stuff. The actress herself is happy it was cut because the tone was whiny, but I think as-is the scene doesn't play very well.
We flash forward to the alternate future. Picard is a Lieutenant JG on the Enterprise. He's instantly disappointed. And no doubt that's a real disappointment; if you could teleport Obama to an alternate world where he's still a State Senator, he'd probably be crushed. But the show becomes unusually mean-spirited about it way too quickly. Picard asks Riker and Troi to evaluate alterna-him as an officer, and they say he's good but... lacks direction and focus and they don't see him moving up the ranks. Frankly, Lieutenant JG on the flagship of the Federation is not a bad gig. I see why Picard would say it was. I get why he's crushed. But it's weird for Riker and Troi to treat him like a lifer with no chance of accomplishing anything when he's already elite among his peers. It's also weird that we he says he wants to prove himself worthy of more, their immediate reaction is to tell him straight up "I doubt it" and crush his dreams.
Definitely the episode is more than the sum of its parts, it's pretty resonant, it's a great episode like I remember. But I'm not sure it succeeds on the level that something like The Inner Light or Chain of Command II does. The original draft of the script was full blown "this was your life" / "a christmas carol" where Q guided Picard through major moments in his life. There was a scene on the Stargazer with Jack Crusher. In script revisions, Michael Piller argued that it was senseless to just relive these moments, and they should try to incorporate a moral element. Then they narrowed down to the Naussican stabbing. But I'm not sure they got the moral--what's the moral? What Picard already knew, that he was who he was because of the sum of choices he made in his life? We know this. When he tells Wesley about his misbehaving youth in earlier episodes, he recognizes that it made him who he was. When he talks to Boothby, he seems to be able to reflect on who he is. Is this guy who really needs a self-confidence boost? *shrugs*
I've always been of two minds on that. Q does manipulate him into doing the whole this is your life thing, but he would have also died right then and there if he hadn't have intervened because of the decision he made back when he was a young cadet.
It's never quite worked for me either, but I love some of the imagery.
It's never quite worked for me either, but I love some of the imagery.
It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but here's how I remember it: Picard always knew his life experiences forged the man he came to be. Death changed this perspective.
I suspect Q was always going to save Picard's life, but he had to make sure Picard didn't take away all the wrong lessons from death. Had Q simply revived Picard, he might have lived the rest of his life as a shell of the man he was before he died.
IIRC, Q asked Picard if he had any regrets, and Picard puts on a straight face and says "No, I have none at all." Q pushes "Really?" and Picard's facade crumbles a little, and he says "Well I regret getting stabbed in the heart as a boy. I regret living my entire life with a pacemaker. I regret dying from it today."
Q says "Okay, then lets go back and change it" and Picard goes all straight-faced again and says that his Starfleet teaching has taught him that changing the past is a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive and is Wrong. Q gives Picard a "get out of Temporal Prime Directive violation free" card, which is enough to tempt Picard to try it.
Q shows Picard that his ill-spent youth made him strong, and Picard develops new resolve. It's not just a facade or the result of his teachings. He wants that strength. He needs it. It helped him live a full life. Now that Picard's seen the other side of the fence, he has no regrets about getting stabbed in the heart, not even buried deep down, not even if it kills him.
IIRC, Q said that Picard was a hard man to find a gift for. He found one tiny little ember of regret in Picard, blew on it, showed it to Picard, and then helped Picard stamp it out.
SpoonyBard
Banned
I think the episode was basically about Q thinking Picard was one arrogant son of a bitch, and wanting to teach him a lesson. And I guess give a gift, because he still happens to like Picard despite his arrogance. But yeah, the way they treat Lieutenant JG Picard is a bit off-putting... they didn't really show the reason why he was such a failure, even if he didn't live up to his full potential obviosuly.
It's kind of hard to judge Riker and Troi, because we don't actually see what JG Picard is actually like in his day to day actions. I'd say there's enough evidence that they've seen behavior like what OG Picard is talking about... Troi comments that "Hasn't this been the problem all along?" which implies to me that they've been down this road before. He's the guy who's constantly talking big about what he's going to be doing, and how he's not going to be here that long; but the man is past fifty (assuming Picard is roughly Stewart's age), and people half his age are starting to outrank him. They're blunt with him because Picard's asking them to be.
Also, clearly being on the flagship is not as high an honor for non-bridge crew as you're making it out to be. After all you've got Barclay hanging around.
Also, clearly being on the flagship is not as high an honor for non-bridge crew as you're making it out to be. After all you've got Barclay hanging around.
Escape Goat
Member
Didnt they have replicators in Kirks time? Im watching ST6 and they have a galley. Valeris even vaporizes a turkey. I guess they dont mind going to slaughter another one from storage.
Henchmen21
Banned
Nope. Replicators came with TNG. Hence the galley on the A
They had "food synthesizers" which apparently assembled foods from basic materials, but not on the atomic level like replicators.
Escape Goat
Member
But in the show I could have sworn had people going up to a replicator and taking food out of a little window.
Escape Goat
Member
Im not sure what basic materials are but they sound like the same thing. Even the Memory Alpha page is of no help.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Food_synthesizer
There are replicators on the -A too (probably as a virtue of the set reuse with the TV show); it was Meyer who was adamant about having the more "anachronistic" galley in the film.
But yeah they were never really clear on the technical distinctions between them. Makes sense ships would still have physical kitchens in addition to replicators, given the strong hipster streak of 23rd and 24th century humanity.
There was a TOS episode where a 20th century Air Force guy was being held in the transporter room to prevent timeline contamination, and the transporter chief gets bored and asks the guy what he would like to eat. He says "chicken soup" and the chief flips through some program cards, sticks a card in a slot, and a small door opens, having instantly produced hot chicken soup.
Which suggests that the food blobs were the choice of the Enterprise crew. They ate jello blobs because they liked eating jello blobs.
If the chicken soup was cooked by an automated cooking machine, and not replicated (strictly speaking), then it was cooked damn fast, and that technology is probably about as useful as a replicator.
As I'm guessing, the "food synthesizer" has access to water, chicken, uncooked eggs, flour, salt, etc, and if someone requests chicken soup, it uses the flour/water/eggs/etc to make noodles at an insane speed (I can't imagine noodles are requested often enough for them to keep noodles on hand), then it throws in some chicken bits and salt on top and blasts the bowl with superheated water. It's a mechanical machine that rapidly makes food out of ingredients.
The replicator makes water. It makes chicken. It makes salt. It makes eggs.
Escape Goat
Member
Maybe they have real food stored onboard for special occasions. Or the direvtor thought it would be a cool place to have a scene.
Another thing is how fast the shockwave from Praxis hit the Excelsior. They would have to have been in the same solar system as Praxis because when they call Praxis everythings in flames and that Klingon is screaming something before the call gets terminated. It coukdnt have been moving faster than the speed of light. So Klingons have their key energy production facility easily intercepted by wandering Starfleet ships.
I know. A wizard did it.
Another thing is how fast the shockwave from Praxis hit the Excelsior. They would have to have been in the same solar system as Praxis because when they call Praxis everythings in flames and that Klingon is screaming something before the call gets terminated. It coukdnt have been moving faster than the speed of light. So Klingons have their key energy production facility easily intercepted by wandering Starfleet ships.
I know. A wizard did it.
if by "a wizard" you mean "subspace", then yeah. That's the standard Trek explanation for stuff that shouldn't be getting where it's going as fast as it is. Subspace shock wave. Subspace communications. You know, that kind of bullshit.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
If we're getting a new ST show, would it follow the new universe? Or what if it makes up its own universe?
I wonder why I even bought all TNG seasons on Blu-Ray. I haven't even watched the last two seasons. I just watch the stuff on Netflix when I feel like it.
Yikes... yeah I almost bit a few times but I hardly ever watch things on BR these days.
The BRs definitly look better, but most times my lazy me wins over my vidophile me. Launching Netflix is just so much more convenient than fetching your Blu-Ray, looking for the disk with the specific episode you want to watch, and booting the disk. That easily takes multiple minutes.
This is quite cool. All episodes of TOS represented by minimalistic posters.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/markgonyea/minimal-trek
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/markgonyea/minimal-trek
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
When they do something like this, does it update in all regions that carry the program simultaneously? Just curious.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
Slowly working my way through TNG:
S5E19: The First Duty: wtf it's Tom Paris! Has anyone else canonically played two different people in the Star Trek universe like this?
S5E20: Cost of Living: TNG is so patchy with its science sometimes. You have legitimate topics like Bussard Ramjets and Dyson Spheres and whatever else showing up-- Dr. Crusher quotes real medicine a lot of the time-- and then you have the writing staff completely fail to understand what a parasite is.
"Parasite" has a definition. This isn't it. It annoys me!
S5E21: The Perfect Mate: Fuck everything about this episode. Whole thing felt like a gross fantasy out of the 50s, and their attempts to criticize it were half-hearted and paper thin.
S5E19: The First Duty: wtf it's Tom Paris! Has anyone else canonically played two different people in the Star Trek universe like this?
S5E20: Cost of Living: TNG is so patchy with its science sometimes. You have legitimate topics like Bussard Ramjets and Dyson Spheres and whatever else showing up-- Dr. Crusher quotes real medicine a lot of the time-- and then you have the writing staff completely fail to understand what a parasite is.
"Parasite" has a definition. This isn't it. It annoys me!
S5E21: The Perfect Mate: Fuck everything about this episode. Whole thing felt like a gross fantasy out of the 50s, and their attempts to criticize it were half-hearted and paper thin.
Escape Goat
Member
Voyager intended to use the character but couldnt for whatever reason. Kind of how Ro Laren was supposed to have played Major Kira's role.
It bugged me in "Contagion" that the nurse didnt know what a splint was. He scoffed at the idea like it was a barbaric practice from the dark ages.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Tom Paris was written to be like the character from First Duty, but his name was changed and his backstory altered ever so slightly (Where Nick lied to cover up a training accident that killed a cadet, Tom Paris lied to cover up a mission accident that killed a few officers). They wanted someone like McNeil to play the part, and when they could not find someone to fit the part, they just called in McNeil to play Paris.
As for actors, there are many, many actors who have played multiple roles across series. Not including the guest starts that reappear repeatedly...
Diana Muldaur, who played Dr. Pulaski in season 2 of TNG had two guest star appearances on the Original Series.
Armin Shimerman, (Quark on DS9), played one of the first Ferengi on TNG.
Ethan Philips (Neelix on Voyager), also played a Ferengi on TNG, and would do so again on Enterprise.
Tim Russ, (Tuvok on Voyager) had guest roles on TNG, DS9 (both as a Klingon and a Mirror version of Tuvok), and a role in Generations.
Little bit more complicated than that.
They came up with Major Kira, not to screw some writers out of royalties, but because Michelle Forbes turned down the offer to reprise the role on DS9.
They came up with the character of Tom Paris, because they would have to pay out royalties to the writers of "The First Duty" to use that character.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
Forgot about this one. The idea that splints wouldn't be included in medical training--in emergency first aid, if nothing else!--completely breaks suspension of disbelief.
SpoonyBard
Banned
He played at least 3 different Ferengi (including Quark) and a silver face in a box in TNG. He's a great actor, so it's no wonder they kept using him, but having him play Ferengi almost all the time is a bit weird.
Thought the chemistry between Janssen and Stewart was pretty good though.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I always forget that he was the Gift Box.
Yep, especially since in general, they've treated humanity in the 24th century as fairly in-touch with "low tech" gear and more hands-on than super-advanced computers would necessitate. I mean people still know what morse code is.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
trivia:
(Captain's Logs)
Honestly the fake-out ending sounds terrible but certainly it'd be a better moral than an especially creepy, non-consentual form of arranged marriage and sex slavery. But it's pretty clear they wrote her as an object to tell a story about Picard, not a character in her own right, which is disappointing.
Notwithstanding that, they've depicted tourniquets and slings multiple times...
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
Yeah, that's the crux of it and why that stuff is always so creepy. It sets up this assumed viewpoint that the woman isn't really a person and just expects the audience to go along with it like that's completely fine.
The notes you posted make it clear they wrote themselves into a corner with that premise, as even the other ending would have been hackish.
WhiskeyDiver
Member
Most former Star Trek actors do well after their stints on programs as main characters...most do.
But on the other hand I bring you this.
Guess that Ocampa!
Oh how the Kes have fallen.
But on the other hand I bring you this.
Guess that Ocampa!
Oh how the Kes have fallen.