They're teased a lot in series two. Not sure about series one, but they definitely get more than one mention.
The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
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They're teased a lot in series two. Not sure about series one, but they definitely get more than one mention.
funkystudent
Member
DS9 rewatch update.
I love I have forgotten so much about this show.
I love I have forgotten so much about this show.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
People say that WoK started the need for ST movies to "need" a central villain, but I thought VH didn't have a villain and it worked. And I doubt the probe was a villain.
Humans are the villain of Voyage Home. Even the climactic 'battle' of the film is with a whaling ship.
Wrath of Khan and Voyage Home are both more about the failures of basic human nature than about a villain. This isn't really true of most of the other film villains, who are usually more alien.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well, if you want to say there are thematic villains, then Undiscovered Country is about the military industrial complex running amuck.
Oh god, I just realized that Into Darkness stole from both Khan and UC. lol
Oh god, I just realized that Into Darkness stole from both Khan and UC. lol
A lot of Undiscovered Country's conflict is internal. Kirk and crew are the old guard and they're faced with the concept of change.
Yes, there's a subplot about a military complex, but it too is about preserving the status quo in the face of a new order.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
That's true, Kirk is like the old racist guy from that Clint Eastwood movie dealing with his bigotry.
The thing is, he's not racist. When it comes down to it, he's willing to die for change.
He's a guy who realizes his error. And even when he's distrustful, he's still willing to put himself in danger to save others. He understands beaming over to the Klingon ship is likely a death sentence.
And now we've covered all the really good Star Trek films. You may notice a pattern.
I dunno if he's even really racist (although Meyer clearly wanted to draw some parallels, to the disapproval of Brock Peters and Nichelle Nichols.) He's a guy who, from every on-screen bit of evidence, literally never met a good Klingon. His reaction to the Klingons getting hoisted on their own petard might be prejudiced by that history, but ironically in many ways it's more logical than Spock's insistence that mercy and quarter be given to a dying enemy that hasn't shown such attributes themselves. Kirk and Cartright's plan to let them kill themselves off is the smarter tactical move.
Obviously Gorkon's existence shows that there was something redeemable among the Klingons, but it certainly wasn't forward facing.
(And jesus, his daughter was a grade-A jerk. The way she gets upset about the term "inalienable" like a Tumblr activist would have made me just give up on the dinner right then and there.)
And now we've covered all the really good Star Trek films. You may notice a pattern.
Really only Generations managed to attempt similar thematic depth among the TNG films. First Contact is interesting in that it posits more straight-forwardly than The Wrath of Khan that revenge is a self-destructive act, and Nemesis tries to set up some duality of man and nature vs. nurture thing that never gets anywhere.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I like 3.And now we've covered all the really good Star Trek films. You may notice a pattern.
Well, I don't know if he irrationally hates Klingons because they're Klingons, but he basically gets himself in trouble because he - at least in his log which is used in the trial - blames all Klingons for the death of his son.
I honestly don't know if it's worse than McKoy's bigotry against Vulcans in TOS. Could you imagine someone in the TNG-era using "green-blooded Vulcan" as a pejorative?
I like 3.
I don't mind 3, but it's mostly just a way to get to 4 and set up 6. Losing Kirstie Alley really fucks with it (the only time you'll ever hear me say that) and while I always enjoy Christopher Lloyd hamming it up, it gets pretty over the top.
I like 3.
Well, I don't know if he irrationally hates Klingons because they're Klingons, but he basically gets himself in trouble because he - at least in his log which is used in the trial - blames all Klingons for the death of his son.
I honestly don't know if it's worse than McKoy's bigotry against Vulcans in TOS. Could you imagine someone in the TNG-era using "green-blooded Vulcan" as a pejorative?
McCoy's thing with Spock has always been interesting, because it's not like he hates Spock for being Vulcan per se, he comes into sometimes violent disagreement because of his outlook on life and his focus on logic over what's right. The "green blooded" stuff is kind of like "you stupid son of a bitch" as an intensifier.
Where it gets stickier, though, is that all Vulcans (or virtually all, and certainly at least in the TOS era presumably all) have that logical focus as a core part of their identity as a people, so the lines of where you would call it racist seems blurrier. It'd be akin to not having a problem with black people, but Baptists—except every black person was Baptist. To some people it might be a distinction without a difference.
I think Kristie Alley's removal and how they wrote Saavik's character intensifies one of the problems I have with the film, in that it sort of repudiates a lot of the point of Genesis in Star Trek II. That the Genesis planet turns out to be flawed because David took shortcuts (and somehow they tunnel it all down to it being David's fault, which is a bit of a dick move considering how many other people worked on it and how it was clearly his mother's project) isn't necessarily a bad development. But Saavik just seems to lecture David in a way that doesn't jive with how we see her act in the previous film.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Yeah, I don't know if they even needed to have Saavik there at all. Or just have another character.
I just liked the character bonding though. It's probably the only time the crew really comes together.
Well, you could say it's similar to anti-semitism, where a racial identity is wrapped up with a cultural identity and a religious identity.
I think it's specifically the fact that he's using a physical trait - which Vulcans have no control over - that just makes it sound racist. Imagine using something similar in a real world context...
Well that's a bit like how I think Star Trek V is a fantastic film, it's just such a shame it's so short. They go to Yosemite and have a good time and then it just kind of ends...
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Row row row your boat...
SpoonyBard
Banned
Eh, I thought the Klingons in DS9 were way more over the top, while played by much worse actors. Lloyd played a captain who, I felt, liked to act larger than life in front of his crew, like some human military leaders also do. Okay, maybe he was also a bit mad. But I enjoyed the character way more than I usually like Klingons. The Errand of Mercy was in many ways the best Klingon story, and it was all downhill from there.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I wouldn't mind a film about the gang doing slice of life romp with added sci fi.
Yeah I think TNG and DS9 ironically both deepened the Klingons, while simultaneously almost turning them into caricatures.
Henchmen21
Banned
While I agree somewhat, you really have to blame Ron Moore. He was so obsessed with turning them into Feudal Japan. The only good Klingon episodes were Sins of the Father up to Redemption pts 1&2.
Yeah, I definitely think Ron Moore is a guy who has to be kept on a leash... otherwise you get the nonsense of the Pah-Wraiths, or in acute cases, the ending to BSG
*I'd love for all the main Alpha quadrant aliens to get some deepening. I’m going to be really sad if they scratch the prime universe, because there were so many post-Dominion war stories that could have explored all those cultures having to deal with the near-total annihilation of their way of life. People give the Klingons and others crap for being monocultures, but I also just don’t think we’ve really spent enough time with non-Starfleet individuals to really scratch much beyond the surface.
I’d also love to see some more examination of how all these cultures have influenced each other. I can see the Vulcan philosophy, for example, really appealing to some humans—it’s really just an evolved form of Stoicism, after all. Likewise, I’m sure there are guys who would see the Klingon way of life as glorious and more “true to life” than the more passive Federation ways (we got the tiniest bit of that, I suppose, in the Sons of Mogh from “Time’s Children” or whatever it was called.)
*My brother was watching the finale to DS9 this evening, and rewatching that fire caves stuff is painful. Not only does it badly break up the pacing of the episode, since it should be taking place over the course of an hour or two but the entire Dominion War wraps up in the meantime, but the more I think about it, the more the Book of Kosst Amojan is just idiotic as a plot device. Who the hell wrote these instructions to release the Pah-Wraiths? If they could do it, why didn’t they? (And if they didn’t want to release them, why would you leave instructions for others to do so?) Why are these aliens actually restricted by rules thrown into a book? Why does torching it solve the problem? The more they explained anything about the Pah-Wraiths and the Prophets, the deeper the hole they dug themselves into.
SpoonyBard
Banned
I enjoyed the tng episode where Riker served as first officer on a Klingon ship. It gave us some information on Klingon culture that was interesting, but later on they really failed to expand on it.
funkystudent
Member
Nearly finished S3 of DS9.
Kai Winn is such a bitch in every single scene she is in. Such a great shit eating character. She is just a smug cunt every single time she shows up.
Kai Winn is such a bitch in every single scene she is in. Such a great shit eating character. She is just a smug cunt every single time she shows up.
Only because the Voyager writers made the Borg less effective than the bloody Kazon.
Voyager suffered from the same downfall as Castle has, which has continued running itself into the ground with "serious" story arcs. Voyager did the Borg, they did them well, and they got better ratings every time. So they kept. on. using. them.
One of the reasons I'd really love a Prime universe trek is I feel like the Borg deserve a put-up or shut-up all out invasion to deal with them once and for all. The Destiny EU series had some decent ideas among the general mediocre quality of writing.
This is too good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZt6eU5REN8
SpoonyBard
Banned
That's one of the best things ever in the whole history of things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrG4JnrN5GA
This is an attempt at getting clicks. Original upload is from 2013 (and even that stole the thing from someone else)
Aww, didn't realise that. Whoever did the original did a great job.
funkystudent
Member
Finished S3 of DS9. Quick thoughts.
Loving the slow burn on the Dominion stuff. The full scale war doesn't start until the end of S5 for crying out loud. That seems so far away.
Sisko is the caption now. Beard + hair look is a weird half step I forgot happened.
Jake got real tall, real quick.
Sisko mentioned sending his dad a message. The way they have been talking in earlier episodes made it seem like his dad was dead. I guess they changed that at some point.
I have developed a bit of a crush for Nana Visitor.
I guess Worf arrives in S4. Cool? I completely forget how they wrote him into the show.
I feel like during the later half of S3 the show finally hit the tone I remember in my head DS9 having. Not that S1 and S2 are bad or anything but they feel very much like TNG at times. It almost felt like they had unused scripts for TNG and just used them for DS9 at times but now its really hit its stride with more stories that take advantage of this set of characters.
Oh and its a shame this show hasn't hit Blu Ray yet. I know that shit is expensive to produce and DS9 isnt the most popular thing in the world but man... I want it.
Loving the slow burn on the Dominion stuff. The full scale war doesn't start until the end of S5 for crying out loud. That seems so far away.
Sisko is the caption now. Beard + hair look is a weird half step I forgot happened.
Jake got real tall, real quick.
Sisko mentioned sending his dad a message. The way they have been talking in earlier episodes made it seem like his dad was dead. I guess they changed that at some point.
I have developed a bit of a crush for Nana Visitor.
I guess Worf arrives in S4. Cool? I completely forget how they wrote him into the show.
I feel like during the later half of S3 the show finally hit the tone I remember in my head DS9 having. Not that S1 and S2 are bad or anything but they feel very much like TNG at times. It almost felt like they had unused scripts for TNG and just used them for DS9 at times but now its really hit its stride with more stories that take advantage of this set of characters.
Oh and its a shame this show hasn't hit Blu Ray yet. I know that shit is expensive to produce and DS9 isnt the most popular thing in the world but man... I want it.
There's mainly the issue of whether or not all those CG assets are still lying around in later seasons. Apparently for DS9 there still are, but I doubt it would still be as "easy" as TNG, and you'd be doing it for a show in DS9 or Voyager's case that was nowhere near as popular as TNG.
The real killer here is that TNG Blu-Ray sets leveled out and ended up not doing so hot after the first couple of seasons, in large part thanks to the dwindling home video market. Streaming is the way of things now, which is all well and good except that no one is going to pay the $90+ per season to stream something that they didn't pay to own it. TNG is far more well-known than DS9, too, so it's a bad arrangement. We talk about it on TrekBBS constantly, and that's the consensus I've found.
If and when DS9 and Voyager get any kind of update, it won't be nearly so vast as TNG's.
In other news, Star Trek Beyond's debut trailer is coming soon.
If and when DS9 and Voyager get any kind of update, it won't be nearly so vast as TNG's.
In other news, Star Trek Beyond's debut trailer is coming soon.
Yep. Had the Blu-Ray home video market seen some of the success of the DVD era it mighta' been far more likely. Now the only way I think that those shows are gonna' get remastered is if there's some executive who loved them and is willing to push it through despite the numbers.
Aye.
That's why I think there'll be some degree of work put on them eventually, but nothing nearly so impressive as TNG. Mainly just cleaning up the quality -- modestly future-proofing it. Nothing more. Trek continues to do well in streaming numbers ("across all shows", even, according to Les Moonves himself) so it'd behoove CBS to clean the picture. But to redo stuff? Naw. TNG-R was a costly-as-hell op and unfortunately Sisko and Janeway just aren't household names. (Maybe a bit more so now, though, given the streaming numbers. Heh.)
That's why I think there'll be some degree of work put on them eventually, but nothing nearly so impressive as TNG. Mainly just cleaning up the quality -- modestly future-proofing it. Nothing more. Trek continues to do well in streaming numbers ("across all shows", even, according to Les Moonves himself) so it'd behoove CBS to clean the picture. But to redo stuff? Naw. TNG-R was a costly-as-hell op and unfortunately Sisko and Janeway just aren't household names. (Maybe a bit more so now, though, given the streaming numbers. Heh.)
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
And helped them exterminate at least one species.
funkystudent
Member
Man.... The visitor is just a amazing piece of TV sci fi.
A classic time travel-ish story with real heart and executed to perfection.
Dude they got to play old Jake did a great job.
A classic time travel-ish story with real heart and executed to perfection.
Dude they got to play old Jake did a great job.
You may also recognize him as Worf's brother Kurn who originally appeared in TNG.
And who is probably the first character I think of when someone asks "which ST supporting character got shafted the worst".
DS9's secondary/antagonistic cast honestly makes the majority of other space opera main casts look comparatively meh. Spoiler-tagging just in case anyone is new to the show, but man.
Garak. Dukat. Weyoun. Winn. Nog. Martok. Vic. Rom. Leeta. Nagus. Female Founder. Gowron. The list goes on.
They're honestly better than the main cast, but given the limitations of the format that's fine (and to be expected really, since in general they have to be the more straight-laced characters.)
It's just a shame that Winn and Dukat went out so badly.
SpoonyBard
Banned
That sounds like something that's easy to agree at first, but after thinking for a second... nope. Many space operas have fantastic main casts, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise are the main expections, with mostly poor main characters.
SpoonyBard
Banned
TNGs problem is that Picard and Data are so great they make the rest of them look bad in comparison. But I liked Georgi and Worf too, and Riker when he had a chance to shine. The female cast were underused, or written kind of badly.
I agree that Picard and Data are great (I ran a really fun mass Star Trek character ranking thingy earlier this year and almost everyone involved had them in their top ten!) but I wouldn't necessarily agree that they simply outshine the rest of the lot. Worf is good, largely by virtue of having an ongoing story in a show that is generally a bit episodic for my taste. Everyone else is rather wallpaper to me in most episodes.
At least nobody is actively bad. Just very... standard-issue.
At least nobody is actively bad. Just very... standard-issue.
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