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[Cindi Mayweather]

The problem isn't the existence of classical music or jazz. The problem is that's the only music we ever see. No alien music, no contemporary music for their time. Just a bunch of music we listened to in the 90's to make things relatable. That is what dates it. I think you underestimate the way music shapes a culture. If you're trying to show the future that has co-existence between aliens and different races, why would you ever want to limit your universe by having them only ever interested Terran classical or jazz?

And ultimately, creating music for a futuristic setting isn't even that hard if you've got talented music composers. All you're giving me are excuses. Just because it's the future doesn't mean it has to be wacky either. The most important thing is that it's good. But every musician that ever shows up on TNG is only ever a classical musician. The disparity sticks. And that's how you get William Riker... the adventuring guy who likes to get his adrenaline pumping and eat gagh, choose the trombone as his instrument of choice.

http://youtu.be/pTJLX3an1To

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

taken to another thread.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

This article got me start watching DS9 immediately.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2013/05...-deep-space-nine-is-hard-to-love-but-worth-it

 

[firehawk12]

You're telling me that they can create all of these races and such a rich universe but can't come up with create music? It doesn't have to be a realistic imagining. Having classical instruments every now and then would be fine, except it's only EVER classical instruments.

Have you watched Enteprise? It's worse there.

All Trip watches are 50s/60s movies. Basically anything that's part of the CBS/Paramount catalogue that they didn't have to pay for. lol

As it is, if I were to recommend this show to anyone I'd suggest they only watch seasons 3 and 5. Either that or just watch its best episodes and skip the show entirely and watch BSG reboot instead. It touches on what makes TNG's best episodes so good without having repetitive non-related storylines with zero plot or character development and does the "what is human, really?" thing in a much better manner.

No way. Ronald D Moore's head went up his own ass with BSG. Any of his TNG/DS9 scripts are better than most of the episodes he wrote for his own show.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Have you watched Enteprise? It's worse there.

All Trip watches are 50s/60s movies. Basically anything that's part of the CBS/Paramount catalogue that they didn't have to pay for. lol

Yeah, Tom Paris watched and loved schlocky 30s-50s sci-fi, but everyone looked at him as being a bit odd for it. The entire Enterprise crew not watching new movies was bizarre.

 

[maharg]

I was really disappointed with season 6. I thought season 5, the cast finally started to click together. Darmok, Inner Light, Cost of Living, I, Borg. It had the philosophical episodes of Trek that I adore. I liked every episode of that season, even the one where Wesley and his friends play some weird ass game. I loved season 5. Especially after 4, which I couldn't stand. Now I'm back to not being able to stand it. I'm at the tail end of season 6 and I don't think I can stomach season 7. I want to dive into DS9. For all of the amazing highs of this show, it is full of absolute filler and pointless tedium. Way beyond even season 2 contrary to what everyone says.

As it is, if I were to recommend this show to anyone I'd suggest they only watch seasons 3 and 5. Either that or just watch its best episodes and skip the show entirely and watch BSG reboot instead. It touches on what makes TNG's best episodes so good without having repetitive non-related storylines with zero plot or character development and does the "what is human, really?" thing in a much better manner.

TNG is an episodic show. No one would ever say it stops being one after season 2. I'm really not at all sure what you think makes TNG's best episodes so good if you think BSG represents them in any way. The comparison is, frankly, bizarre.

 

[firehawk12]

TNG is an episodic show. No one would ever say it stops being one after season 2. I'm really not at all sure what you think makes TNG's best episodes so good if you think BSG represents them in any way. The comparison is, frankly, bizarre.

Well, other than seeing Moore's evolution as a writer/producer I suppose.

Yeah, Tom Paris watched and loved schlocky 30s-50s sci-fi, but everyone looked at him as being a bit odd for it. The entire Enterprise crew not watching new movies was bizarre.

Yeah. I get that it's impossible to invent culture - they have a hard enough time inventing 24th century fashion - but it just stands out. It'd be like if all we did was read Shakespeare now.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

TNG is an episodic show. No one would ever say it stops being one after season 2. I'm really not at all sure what you think makes TNG's best episodes so good if you think BSG represents them in any way. The comparison is, frankly, bizarre.

I'm tying the similarities between Data and his human stuff to the Cylon 5.

Personally, I thought BSG was great from beginning to end. I marathoned and I ever found it boring like TNG. I even like the ending.

Have you watched Enteprise? It's worse there.

All Trip watches are 50s/60s movies. Basically anything that's part of the CBS/Paramount catalogue that they didn't have to pay for. lol

Sounds dumb.

No way. Ronald D Moore's head went up his own ass with BSG. Any of his TNG/DS9 scripts are better than most of the episodes he wrote for his own show.

Eh. I like BSG more than TNG. Kind of hard to see how TNG is the better show.

 

[firehawk12]

Eh. I like BSG more than TNG. Kind of hard to see how TNG is the better show.

Season 4 of BSG is only trumped by the final season of Lost as the worst time I've spent with a TV show in my short life time on Earth. I would rather watch 50 hours of Joe Rogan making the cast of Jersey Shore eat testicles on a desert island in order to win an immunity idol than sit through BSG S4 again.

(Well, maybe not, but - and I can't believe I'm saying this - maybe Berman was a good influence on Moore and kept him from turning DS9 into a massive trainwreck)

 

[maharg]

Season 4 of BSG is only trumped by the final season of Lost as the worst time I've spent with a TV show in my short life time on Earth. I would rather watch 50 hours of Joe Rogan making the cast of Jersey Shore eat testicles on a desert island in order to win an immunity idol than sit through BSG S4 again.

(Well, maybe not, but - and I can't believe I'm saying this - maybe Berman was a good influence on Moore and kept him from turning DS9 into a massive trainwreck)

Even then, he still turned the end of DS9 into weird pseudo-religious nonsense babble.

 

[firehawk12]

Even then, he still turned the end of DS9 into weird pseudo-religious nonsense babble.

Basically what BSG turned into with Starbuck and the nonsense with her being some kind of angel "thing" that lead them to "Earth".

Wow, she was basically The Sisko.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Even then, he still turned the end of DS9 into weird pseudo-religious nonsense babble.

Yeah. I got a few episodes to the end of BSG before I gave up, and saw the finale years later to see if I had been too hard on the show. I did not think I was.

I think the major annoyance with the religious stuff in DS9 is how inconsequential it all is. The whole buildup from "The Reckoning" is ignored entirely, the Book of Kosst-Amojan makes no sense, and I'm still left with the realization that the Bajorans would have been far better off with their gods and demons dead. To top it off, they murder the nuance of Kai Winn and Dukat in the process.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Why is religion a bad thing?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Why is religion a bad thing?

In the case of Bajor? Their religion is based on a bunch of aliens who apparently are heavily involved in their past, and yet don't understand linear existence.

Star Trek makes a lot of interesting comments on the value of faith and religion, but in DS9's case their "gods" are quantifiable, finite in power, and can be killed. Why that doesn't have greater impact on the Bajorans over the course of the series is never explained.

 

[firehawk12]

Why is religion a bad thing?

It's not. But Moore doesn't really integrate it with the more sciencey aspects of both DS9 or BSG in an interesting or well-conceived manner.

 

[maharg]

Why is religion a bad thing?

There are many stories about faith, religion, the nature of god and the universe, etc. that I absolutely adore. Many of those go against my own views and still present a compelling world or story.

Moore just uses religion as a club to batter his story into a shape he finds pleasing. It is not a thoughtful exploration of faith for most of either DS9 or BSG.

 

[SpoonyBard]

And still no-one had balls to say Bajoran people that their religion was fucking bullshit invented by aliens that just happened to live nearby. Okay, Sisko may have been genetically brainwashed to do what they told him, but the rest of the starfleet people kept oddly quiet about it. Picard would have dealt with that shit properly.

 

[Man God]

And still no-one had balls to say Bajoran people that their religion was fucking bullshit invented by aliens that just happened to live nearby. Okay, Sisko may have been genetically brainwashed to do what they told him, but the rest of the starfleet people kept oddly quiet about it. Picard would have dealt with that shit properly.

The season one finale is about just that actually. Only its a Botanist turned grade school teacher trying to take them to task.

It kinda reminds me of the Atheist Cleric I once played in a D&D campaign. World full of magic/gods/magic from the gods you cast, nah, they are just asshole aliens who live in another dimension and sometimes do stuff to you/for you. Pay them no heed.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I think ultimately religious fundamentalism is incompatible with the world of Star Trek, full stop. Every warp-capable species lives in a world where there are seemingly omnipotent beings—but they're all mostly quantifiable, ungodlike in behavior, secretly machines, or clearly a form of life, more powerful but otherwise unexceptional—and a few starship captains have defied them and lived, or outright killed them. I don't see how that wouldn't destroy organized religion in the form as we know it and as represented by something like the Bajorans.

That isn't to say I think religion wouldn't exist at all. The more spiritual and eastern-influenced belief systems of the Vulcans seems like it would be more common, and let it not be said that atheists can't come up with their own "anti-religious religious movements" if given the chance; I can imagine some future Cult of the Supreme Being, or a sort of techno-religion that sort of leapfrogs the question of god or substitutes a nebulous "higher plane" over single or multiple involved godlike entities.

 

[JeffZero]

I love BSG, warts and all. The thrill of that journey resonated with me fiercely. I had a troubled adolescence and spent a lot of time on the streets. Making it to live airings of BSG episodes was a huge part of keeping me focused. Season "4.5" aired right when my life was on a better track. That whole show, man -- it's a personal saga of mine.

I didn't even dislike the ending.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I'm nearing the end of TNG now.

This whole time, I thought the hatred for Wesley was overwrought. I didn't consider him a good character, like at all, just not quite deserving of the level of disdain you sometimes see.

Today I watched S7 "Journey's End."

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha wtf was that

 

[Cheerilee]

I'm nearing the end of TNG now.

This whole time, I thought the hatred for Wesley was overwrought. I didn't consider him a good character, like at all, just not quite deserving of the level of disdain you sometimes see.

Today I watched S7 "Journey's End."

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha wtf was that

A Ron Moore ending.

 

[SpoonyBard]

A Ron Moore ending.

Yep. Wesley has had cameos in TNG movies, but I don't thing he wore Starfleet uniform any longer.

Edit: not sure about this...

 

[maharg]

Yep. Wesley has had cameos in TNG movies, but I don't thing he wore Starfleet uniform any longer.

Edit: not sure about this...

I think there was just the cut cameo in the Riker/Troi wedding.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I think there was just the cut cameo in the Riker/Troi wedding.

Hmm... you're right, I think I was remembering reading something about cameos on previous films, but thet were cut before filming.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I think there was just the cut cameo in the Riker/Troi wedding.

Hmm... you're right, I think I was remembering reading something about cameos on previous films, but thet were cut before filming.

Edit: he did wear a starfleet uniform in the Nemesis deleted scene though.

 

[Cheerilee]

According to Memory Alpha...

"I was the one who pushed to get Wesley out of the Academy and send him off with the Traveler. I felt that there was a built-in contradiction in a character that we'd said was like Mozart in his appreciation of higher mathematics and physics, yet was just on the same career path as any Starfleet cadet. I didn't get it – if Wes is truly special and gifted, what the hell is he doing at the Helm? It seemed like he was only going to the Academy to live up to the memory of his father and the expectations of Picard, not because it was his best destiny. "Journey's End" also seemed like an opportunity to see someone walk away from Starfleet with their head held high and just say "It's cool, but not for me." I was tired of everyone in the 24th century saying, "All I want to do is wear the uniform and serve on a starship." Hey, it's cool, but it's not for everyone. So I pushed to have Wes realize his destiny was elsewhere and have him walk away."

But in the original episode with the Traveler, the Traveler said that Wesley was a Mozart of time and space, and that a starship is his natural instrument. It was the Traveler who asked Picard to teach and guide Wesley down that path. That's why Picard allowed Wesley on the bridge (something Wesley desperately wanted, and Picard previously resisted with his "no kids" rule), made him an acting Ensign, told Riker to teach Wesley how the entire ship works top-to-bottom, and set up Wesley's entrance into Starfleet Academy.

There was no contradiction in Wesley's career path. Oh noes, he's learning things like how to fly the ship, how to qualify as a Chief Engineer, and maybe how to be a Captain. How will that ever allow Wesley to reach warp ten and turn into a salamander? He needs to meet some unique people, smoke some weird shit, become an asshole and betray/lose all his friends, and get thrown out of school. Everyone knows that's the fastest route to mind-expansion. [/s]

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

According to Memory Alpha...


But in the original episode with the Traveler, the Traveler said that Wesley was a Mozart of time and space, and that a starship is his natural instrument. It was the Traveler who asked Picard to teach and guide Wesley down that path. That's why Picard allowed Wesley on the bridge (something Wesley desperately wanted, and Picard previously resisted with his "no kids" rule), made him an acting Ensign, told Riker to teach Wesley how the entire ship works top-to-bottom, and set up Wesley's entrance into Starfleet Academy.

There was no contradiction in Wesley's career path. Oh noes, he's learning things like how to fly the ship, how to qualify as a Chief Engineer, and maybe how to be a Captain. How will that ever allow Wesley to reach warp ten and turn into a salamander? He needs to meet some unique people, smoke some weird shit, become an asshole and betray/lose all his friends, and get thrown out of school. Everyone knows that's the fastest route to mind-expansion. [/s]

Lol. On top of all that, there was absolutely zero justification for why

Spoiler

Wes should have superpowers at all.

Like, he just does and it's never explained at all? Lol OK. The one other time something like this happened, the person in question

Spoiler

was a Q and didn't know it,

which at least attempts to make sense.

And fuck that episode of Voyager.

 

[Henchmen21]

According to Memory Alpha...


But in the original episode with the Traveler, the Traveler said that Wesley was a Mozart of time and space, and that a starship is his natural instrument. It was the Traveler who asked Picard to teach and guide Wesley down that path. That's why Picard allowed Wesley on the bridge (something Wesley desperately wanted, and Picard previously resisted with his "no kids" rule), made him an acting Ensign, told Riker to teach Wesley how the entire ship works top-to-bottom, and set up Wesley's entrance into Starfleet Academy.

There was no contradiction in Wesley's career path. Oh noes, he's learning things like how to fly the ship, how to qualify as a Chief Engineer, and maybe how to be a Captain. How will that ever allow Wesley to reach warp ten and turn into a salamander? He needs to meet some unique people, smoke some weird shit, become an asshole and betray/lose all his friends, and get thrown out of school. Everyone knows that's the fastest route to mind-expansion. [/s]

Once again Ron Moore sticking his nose in and ruining a character. And to think people give Brannon Braga shit when the focus of their ire should be at this guy.

 

[JeffZero]

Moore still did far more good than harm to me.

Then again, I don't wake up every morning and grab my Braga-plated pitchfork, either. Just about everyone who ever worked on Star Trek had their good days and their bad and there's plenty that Braga (and Berman and all the rest of them) did that I enjoy.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Honestly I think they all did fine jobs at the helm. Moore probably benefited from the oversight, it sounds like Enterprise suffered, and Braga ultimately was a little tone-deaf in realizing what fans wanted with the finale. Mostly it just speaks to the fact that you can't have the same guys doing the same thing for more than a decade and have it still excite. It's just a shame that it led to Star Trek being written by the brilliant minds behind Transformers and being used as a showreel to direct the other sci-fi franchise you were actually interested in.

 

[call_kotaku]

I've been rewatching DS9 for the last couple of weeks and I feel like even if it isn't everyone's favorite Trek show (it is mine, though), it does so much work for fleshing out the universe and making things matter. Alien races like the Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, the Dominion, etc. all have their cultures fleshed out beyond general Trek alien stereotypes and actually present alternatives to the Federation's utopia, which is really surprising in hindsight.

One of the running themes of the show seems to be that the Federation is as much an idealistic paradise as it is a reaction to the violent history of Earth (and Vulcan's violent history too, I presume), and other species can run perfectly effective governments that revolve around totalitarianism or unchecked capitalism because they don't have as much capacity for self-harm (this scene in particular really surprised me).

Not simply treating the post-scarcity future as the Federation vs everyone else actually did make the idealistic parts of Trek more meaningful to me, even if that aspect of the show is better-presented in other series

 

[maharg]

I've been rewatching DS9 for the last couple of weeks and I feel like even if it isn't everyone's favorite Trek show (it is mine, though), it does so much work for fleshing out the universe and making things matter. Alien races like the Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, the Dominion, etc. all have their cultures fleshed out beyond general Trek alien stereotypes and actually present alternatives to the Federation's utopia, which is really surprising in hindsight.

One of the running themes of the show seems to be that the Federation is as much an idealistic paradise as it is a reaction to the violent history of Earth (and Vulcan's violent history too, I presume), and other species can run perfectly effective governments that revolve around totalitarianism or unchecked capitalism because they don't have as much capacity for self-harm (this scene in particular really surprised me).

To me this seems like it's kind of edging into Noble Savage territory here. The idea that we're unique in both our capacity for violence and enlightenment, and others are deserving and comfortable with barbarism. Not that other generations of Trek weren't prone to the same fallacy, though.

Not simply treating the post-scarcity future as the Federation vs everyone else actually did make the idealistic parts of Trek more meaningful to me, even if that aspect of the show is better-presented in other series

Except that in the fleshing out of the universe DS9 did, they made it so that the idealized future for humanity is a lie upheld by a shadowy organization willing to do things like commit genocide in order to maintain the idyllic galaxy for humans. For this reason DS9 greatly diminishes the idealism of Trek for me.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Except that in the fleshing out of the universe DS9 did, they made it so that the idealized future for humanity is a lie upheld by a shadowy organization willing to do things like commit genocide in order to maintain the idyllic galaxy for humans. For this reason DS9 greatly diminishes the idealism of Trek for me.

I'd say it's more accurate that Section 31 believes that the only way that idyllic world can be preserved is through its own efforts. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy on their part, and because they've got The Greater Good on their side they can rationalize away any and everything.

Honestly I think the idealism of Trek and the reason its vision of the future works for me is that it's pretty agnostic insofar as subscribing to an modern political ideology. Its focus on diversity and its mostly post-scarcity society seems like a liberal's utopia, but its society (or at least Starfleet) is designed as an enshrinement of American equality of opportunity. The people who captain those starships are (generally) the smartest, the most clever, the most daring. The people of the future cherish what they can learn from the past and its culture, even if they have typical attitudes of people from the "present" looking down on the long-ago.

And at its most realistic, it says that we can move beyond most of our "petty" squabbles on a geopolitical stage, but yeah, there's always going to be a jerk you can't stand, or a frustrating working environment, or personalities that clash. Sometimes the bureaucracy is going to stand in the way of What Needs To Be Done, or sometimes it's going to make the wrong ruling and be unfair.

 

[call_kotaku]

To me this seems like it's kind of edging into Noble Savage territory here. The idea that we're unique in both our capacity for violence and enlightenment, and others are deserving and comfortable with barbarism. Not that other generations of Trek weren't prone to the same fallacy, though.



Except that in the fleshing out of the universe DS9 did, they made it so that the idealized future for humanity is a lie upheld by a shadowy organization willing to do things like commit genocide in order to maintain the idyllic galaxy for humans. For this reason DS9 greatly diminishes the idealism of Trek for me.

I don't remember DS9 or Canon-Trek ever directly confirming that Section 31 was officially a core component of the Federation outside of their own self-justifications (though I haven't seen all of Enterprise and I think they have a big part in that show), and I think the show itself was critical of that sort of hypocrisy (Homefront, In the Pale Moonlight, etc), and critical of the actual effectiveness of Section 31's efforts and purpose. I personally think Trek's utopia is more interesting when it's something that people choose to pursue and struggle to reinforce, rather than seeming like a consequence of advanced technology or a lack of conflict.

I also don't really follow the barbarism angle, because I think the point is that DS9 doesn't perform the same sort of value judgements that other Trek shows do. It doesn't make the enlightened/unenlightened distinction between the Federation and Alien cultures. Even if a lot of the Ferengi things are played for laughs like paying Latinum strips to use an elevator on Ferenginar, from the Ferengi perspective a society that abolishes money completely might be equally ridiculous.

 

[Cheerilee]

I don't remember DS9 or Canon-Trek ever directly confirming that Section 31 was officially a core component of the Federation outside of their own self-justifications (though I haven't seen all of Enterprise and I think they have a big part in that show), and I think the show itself was critical of that sort of hypocrisy (Homefront, In the Pale Moonlight, etc), and critical of the actual effectiveness of Section 31's efforts and purpose. I personally think Trek's utopia is more interesting when it's something that people choose to pursue and struggle to reinforce, rather than seeming like a consequence of advanced technology or a lack of conflict.

IIRC, Section 31's claim was that they were "enshrined in the constitution", literally as paragraph 31 (or whatever filing system). One could read the constitution (memorized by schoolchildren everywhere) and find a harmless little line sitting right there in the open, not realizing that some twisted people were taking it completely literally. Like the "right to bear arms" not actually referring to America's stance on gun ownership, but a stealth endorsement of the Government's ultra-secret squad of trained grizzly-bear assassins that have been fighting the enemies of America since Confederation (America just lets people have guns because it helps cover up the lie).

IIRC, Sisko sent news of Section 31 up the food chain as soon as Bashir told him about it, but the response from his higher-ups was unusual silence. The implication was that everyone/most people higher than Sisko already knew about Section 31, and they had already given them their tacit approval (or been ordered to look the other way). Anything louder than Sisko saying something, getting no response, then dropping the subject as was expected of him, would have started a problem.

I don't recall Section 31 being a big deal in Enterprise, it just confirmed what Sloan already told Bashir, that they've been there from the very beginning. This wasn't "their interpretation" of the constitution, the constitution was written with a secret allowance just for them.

But yes, DS9 argued "I don't care if you're legal. If you're legal, then the law is wrong and should be changed, because you're wrong and you taint our victories."

 

[Fuchsdh]

IIRC, Section 31's claim was that they were "enshrined in the constitution", literally as paragraph 31 (or whatever filing system). One could read the constitution (memorized by schoolchildren everywhere) and find a harmless little line sitting right there in the open, not realizing that some twisted people were taking it completely literally. Like the "right to bear arms" not actually referring to America's stance on gun ownership, but a stealth endorsement of the Government's ultra-secret squad of trained grizzly-bear assassins that have been fighting the enemies of America since Confederation (America just lets people have guns because it helps cover up the lie).

IIRC, Sisko sent news of Section 31 up the food chain as soon as Bashir told him about it, but the response from his higher-ups was unusual silence. The implication was that everyone/most people higher than Sisko already knew about Section 31, and they had already given them their tacit approval (or been ordered to look the other way). Anything louder than Sisko saying something, getting no response, then dropping the subject as was expected of him, would have started a problem.

I don't recall Section 31 being a big deal in Enterprise, it just confirmed what Sloan already told Bashir, that they've been there from the very beginning. This wasn't "their interpretation" of the constitution, the constitution was written with a secret allowance just for them.

But yes, DS9 argued "I don't care if you're legal. If you're legal, then the law is wrong and should be changed, because you're wrong and you taint our victories."

IIRC the charter basically says "in times of threat extraordinary measures can be taken by Starfleet." Turning that into "you will always have a secret black ops division accountable to (apparently) no one in the established hierarchy" is definitely the equivalent to your bear ninja idea.

As for how far the conspiracy goes or who knows what, I assume it's one of those things whose power lies primarily in its anonymity. Section 31 keeps people in line by occasional force, or more often convincing people that its goals at least coincide with the Federations, which they normally do (they're basically Starfleet's creatures from the id, come to think of it.)

 

[Htown]

(though I haven't seen all of Enterprise and I think they have a big part in that show)

not really. they play a sort of big part in one two-parter and a minor part in another. Basically they

Spoiler

helped the Klingons abduct Doctor Phlox to work on a cure for a secret plague, which eventually led to the ridge-less Klingons of TOS. Otherwise they just gave Lieutenant Reed a bit of intel on Terra Prime.

 

[call_kotaku]

IIRC, Section 31's claim was that they were "enshrined in the constitution", literally as paragraph 31 (or whatever filing system). One could read the constitution (memorized by schoolchildren everywhere) and find a harmless little line sitting right there in the open, not realizing that some twisted people were taking it completely literally. Like the "right to bear arms" not actually referring to America's stance on gun ownership, but a stealth endorsement of the Government's ultra-secret squad of trained grizzly-bear assassins that have been fighting the enemies of America since Confederation (America just lets people have guns because it helps cover up the lie).

IIRC, Sisko sent news of Section 31 up the food chain as soon as Bashir told him about it, but the response from his higher-ups was unusual silence. The implication was that everyone/most people higher than Sisko already knew about Section 31, and they had already given them their tacit approval (or been ordered to look the other way). Anything louder than Sisko saying something, getting no response, then dropping the subject as was expected of him, would have started a problem.

I don't recall Section 31 being a big deal in Enterprise, it just confirmed what Sloan already told Bashir, that they've been there from the very beginning. This wasn't "their interpretation" of the constitution, the constitution was written with a secret allowance just for them.

But yes, DS9 argued "I don't care if you're legal. If you're legal, then the law is wrong and should be changed, because you're wrong and you taint our victories."

I figured one of the interpretations of Sisko being stonewalled in his Section 31 investigation was because while Starfleet opposed Section 31's methods and never officially sanctioned them, they can't risk anyone finding out about Section 31 because of the political ramifications. I feel like the show was deliberate about being ambiguous on whether Section 31 was the Federation's Obsidian Order, or just a very well-organized conspiracy that managed to survive for hundreds of years.

 

[Cheerilee]

I figured one of the interpretations of Sisko being stonewalled in his Section 31 investigation was because while Starfleet opposed Section 31's methods and never officially sanctioned them, they can't risk anyone finding out about Section 31 because of the political ramifications. I feel like the show was deliberate about being ambiguous on whether Section 31 was the Federation's Obsidian Order, or just a very well-organized conspiracy that managed to survive for hundreds of years.

I would think that if Starfleet opposed Section 31, but wanted to keep things quiet, they would've told Sisko "We need to speak, off subspace." Followed by "We're going to handle this ourselves, quietly. You need to go back to DS9 and pretend you never heard of Section 31."

Sisko was already in the loop, so letting him know that there's an investigation starting isn't a security risk. Letting him keep trying to sound the alarm is a risk to their investigation.

IMO, Sisko reported Section 31's existence to someone who was already in Section 31's pocket. Then he tried to report to someone else, and they were also allied with Section 31 in some way. Section 31 is letting Sisko talk (for now) because so far he has only spoken to Section 31 assets, and they're letting him realize how deep the conspiracy goes. They're giving him a taste of who they are, and letting him realize on his own that he has no choice but to keep his mouth shut. But their patience with him is not infinite, and if he makes too much noise, they're going to have to take stronger measures to silence him.

I think the implication was more that it's not clear who knows what or who could be trusted to do the right thing, because it's not clear how Section 31 is projecting their power. Is the person who's not returning Sisko's calls a Section 31 agent? Or are they a good person whose family was threatened by Section 31? Or were they ordered by the President to disregard any message coming from Sisko in the next two days? Or did Section 31 hack their phones and never let the message get through? The end result is all the same, Sisko can't trust anyone, and the smart thing to do is stop talking about it.

IMO, Section 31 is both the Federation's legit counterpart to the likes of the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar, and it's also a (legally mandated) conspiracy of silence, because the people involved know that this organization is so far outside of the ideals of the Federation, that the population (and a sizable chunk of the military) would not support them or even allow them to exist.

The Federation has nothing really to lose from an externally-political position if Section 31 was exposed. The Romulans and Cardassians would only be embarrassed that they didn't see it sooner, and would gain respect for the Federation. As an internally-political problem, the Federation is a collection of member-worlds, so maybe there's a threat of breakup, but I suspect that Federation worlds would have been equally represented by Section 31. It's not a "Human" problem. The Federation President might be in on the conspiracy, and he's not Human. The biggest political concern for Section 31 is the populace. If the people find out, Section 31 is doomed. So any "Keep quiet to avoid political problems" would likely be coming from Section 31.

 

[maharg]

I don't remember DS9 or Canon-Trek ever directly confirming that Section 31 was officially a core component of the Federation outside of their own self-justifications (though I haven't seen all of Enterprise and I think they have a big part in that show), and I think the show itself was critical of that sort of hypocrisy (Homefront, In the Pale Moonlight, etc), and critical of the actual effectiveness of Section 31's efforts and purpose. I personally think Trek's utopia is more interesting when it's something that people choose to pursue and struggle to reinforce, rather than seeming like a consequence of advanced technology or a lack of conflict.

In stories like DS9, which purport to some kind of realist-moral-ambiguity, it's really really important to distinguish what characters say in a story from what the story is actually telling you. Sisko, Bashier, Archer, and Kirk (in Into Darkness) all say that S31 is wrong, but until ID there is really nothing in the story to imply that they're right about that. Section 31 has a vast impact on the politics of 24th Century Trek-universe, and mostly in ways that improve the lot of the Federation at the expense of non-included races and governments. They threaten to and almost do commit genocide against the Founders, and doing so is absolutely instrumental in bringing about the end of the first war to existentially threaten the Federation since the TOS-era, at least. They also install favourable-to-the-Federation people into the Romulan government through assassination, which again is likely to be a boon to the Federation going forward (though I guess you could argue that maybe Nero's destruction of Vulcan is somehow an unintended consequence, but I think that's giving Abrahms too much credit). Section 31's actions are rewarded in the story, and the Federation is safer for them, exactly as they describe. Their theory matches the available facts.

We are given some small bits of information to suggest that Starfleet is complicit in Section 31's existence, and it could be considered circumstantial, but I don't think we're given any reason to actually *doubt* it. Presumptive innocence makes sense in courts, but in analyzing a narrative it just leads to filling in gaps with speculation. And in Into Darkness the link is pretty much solidified with Marcus being the leader of Section 31 in the 23rd century.

I agree, by the way, that a utopia people struggle for is more interesting than one that is simply the consequence of technology. I don't see Section 31 as necessary or sufficient for that to be the case, though. TOS was all about people struggling against their more primitive roots, even if it was usually through reflection against a non-Federation species entering enlightenment. I don't think it was ever the intention for it to portray a society that had lucked into utopia. The near destruction of humanity in an apocalyptic World War III has been a core element of Trek mythology from the beginning, and struggling to climb out of that gutter was the root of Trek's utopia from the very beginning.

[Note: apologies for any errors in the DS9 part of this post, I am going from memory on what Section 31 did.]

 

[Fuchsdh]

They also install favourable-to-the-Federation people into the Romulan government through assassination, which again is likely to be a boon to the Federation going forward (though I guess you could argue that maybe Nero's destruction of Vulcan is somehow an unintended consequence, but I think that's giving Abrahms too much credit).

They don't actually assassinate anyone; Section 31 uses Bashir to get another Romulan to appear to be a traitor to clear the way for their man to ascend. Bashir's own concerns that Section 31 is going to assassinate someone are actually what allow their plan to succeed (I suppose you could say that assassinating him was just Plan B, but the implication from Sloan is strongly that they knew Bashir would take the bait to be an agent against them and so they set up a honeypot, which helped to deflect suspicion from them entirely.)

As for Abrams, I think it's safe to say no one was trying to make any link to that; the prequel comic series basically make out Romulus' destruction as a failure of the Roman leadership to believe the Federation, if anything.

 

[ElTorro]

I finished listening to my audio book of Kate Mulgrew's biography. She only writes a little about Star Trek, but the book as a whole is very well written and narrated.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I kinda wish the comic book ST used the TOS cast (to immortalize them, as it were)

 

[SolarMystic]

Watching Enterprise again. I really wish they had fleshed out first contact with alpha quadrant species a bit more. We meet all these aliens that seem to never exist again in the later canon.

Would have been cool to see first contact with Betazoids or the like.

 

[lastplayed]

Just thought you guys might like to see this. I recently completed the supercarrier USS Enterprise and lined it up next to my other USS Enterprise, both being 1/350 scale.

Here you can really see how small, or how big, each Enterprise is.

 

[Stumpokapow]

How many people live on a supercarrier?

In other news, I'm reading the Voyager Series Bible:

Elizabeth Janeway
A human, Janeway is by no means the only female Captain in Starfleet. But it is generally acknowledged she is among the best -- male or female. She embodies all that is exemplary about Starfleet officers: intelligent, thoughtful, perspicacious, sensitive to the feelings of others, tough when she has to be, and not afraid to take chances... she brings to her captaincy a greater familiarity with technology and science than any captain we've yet experienced... Her mother was her role model, and bequeathed Janeway with warmth, sensitivity, intellectual curiosity, and likability.

Not quite sure that translated to the screen very well.

 

[DrForester]

How many people live on a supercarrier?

In other news, I'm reading the Voyager Series Bible:


Not quite sure that translated to the screen very well.

The "best" of Starfleet was put in charge of a mid-sized science vessel?

 

[Henchmen21]

How many people live on a supercarrier?

In other news, I'm reading the Voyager Series Bible:


Not quite sure that translated to the screen very well.

Reads to me like they tried to do a female Picard (and failed spectacularly)

 

[DrForester]

Reads to me like they tried to do a female Picard (and failed spectacularly)

Reads like the borderline Mary Sue they created. "She's great at everything!" Fits in with the, she's never wrong theme they had going.