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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
They're provisional ranks in a time of crisis. Makes a lot more sense than getting insta-promoted to captain straight out of the academy.
The more salient point of similarity is it makes no sense for those cadets to be there. Even if you assume they are this elite squad I can't imagine Starfleet wpuld send a bunch of cadets on a deep space mission into hot territory right before war breaks out.
DS9 finally hit Netflix in the Netherlands (and I assume the other regions they got the rights for ST for), so I can finally continue my rewatch that was so rudely interrupted by the crackdown on VPN's.
So happy right now, was left in the middle of S2 right after the first mention of The Dominion.
So happy right now, was left in the middle of S2 right after the first mention of The Dominion.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
TOS is the best series by a landslide on the basis of the writing being simply better - deeper, more human, more creative, more fun. Hell, one of the first episodes, Charlie X, ends with a pathos subsequent series rarely reached, and that's not even one of the series's better episodes, tbh. Best movies, as well, but that's a settled matter.
Also, Janeway was right to separate Tuvix. He did not have the right to exist at the expense of two lives if they had the capacity to restore them.
Also, Janeway was right to separate Tuvix. He did not have the right to exist at the expense of two lives if they had the capacity to restore them.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Honestly, out of all the Star Trek I've seen (which is almost all of it), seasons 3 and 4 of Enterprise have to be some of the most consistent and good episodes out of any Trek series. Very few bad/mediocre episodes in the last 2 seasons and way more watchable straight through than anything Voyager had to offer. While there are some stellar episodes from Voyager, they are few and far between. DS9 had some damn good episodes and seasons as well, probably the best acting overall out of all the Treks. TNG is right up there with it. However, I think that it didn't have the episode in and episode out consistency of the last two seasons of Enterprise. Just as a thing, DS9=TNG>TOS=Enterprise>Voyager.
But that's just my opinion.
But that's just my opinion.
Tuvok and Neelix died in a transporter accident. That happens in Trek sometimes and is an accepted risk of using the transporter. Tuvix was born in a transporter accident. That's more rare.
Tuvix was a sentient being with rights (including the most basic right to live), and his existence didn't "cost" anyone's lives. Those people were already dead.
The crew found a way to bring Tuvok and Neelix back from the dead, but it required killing Tuvix, so they jumped on that solution rather than spending some more time and effort to find a way to extract copies of Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix without killing him.
2 > 1 doesn't automatically mean that the 1 has no right to live. If Tom and B'Elanna died on an away mission and the next day Voyager bumped into Literally Satan (not outside of the range of what can happen in Trek), and Satan offered to snap his fingers and bring Tom and B'Elanna back to life if Janeway agreed to slit Harry's throat, would it be okay for Janeway to say "Welp, sorry Harry, but you heard the man. 2 > 1. You no longer have a right to live"?
If 2 > 1, Commander Maddox would have been able to haul Data off to be dismantled in "Measure of a Man", but instead the court said that this rare being had the right to refuse to participate in potentially hazardous medical procedures.
Voyager extended "person" status to Holograms, while Janeway revoked it from actual people (and all of Tuvix's friends were complicit in his murder through their own silent approval). Edit: I just remembered, the Hologram ended up being Tuvix's only defender. Goddamn. Maybe Holograms are more Human than the Voyager crew.
Stallion Dan
Member
They were not dead, they were suffering a medical condition, that is all Tuvix ever was, a medical condition.
Him not wanting to separate was a sign he was mentally deranged also, since he was meant to have the wants of both Tuvok and Neelix, yet clearly both wanted to be separated.
Tuvix was not killed, Tuvok and Neelix were cured.
If someone injures their head and behaves like a different person we dont say the original person died and don't say the 'new' person was murdered when the injuries are treated and they're back to normal.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
It's not just that 2 > 1, it's that 1 had effectively KILLED 2 in order to exist. Tuvix had basically stolen the DNA and life processes of two people in order to come into existence, and while no, he didn't do it on purpose, that doesn't give him some kind of inalienable right to the DNA of two humanoid, sentient beings who obviously would have objected to the state of affairs in question had they been there. In Star Trek, "death" is not really a matter of your life processes ceasing functioning as it is your life processes ceasing functioning and modern technology being unable to do anything to restore them. Yes, transporter accidents are a risk you take, but you take the risk knowing that the crew will do everything in their power to fix or undo transporter accidents if they DO happen. The Voyager crew HAD the ability to restore the existence of Tuvkok and Neelix, and to fail to do so because of the wishes of a being who, frankly, had no right to their DNA without their consent would have been a grave injustice on Janeway's part.
As to your question: if Harry being alive was the result of some kind of cosmic trolley problem, i.e. a horrific accident that left Harry alive at the expense of two other people, one could make the case that, yes, Janeway would be in the right to kill Harry if it meant the others would be back. .
I would not necessarily agree with this. Tuvix was sentient, and separate, in some ways, from either of his progenitors. But, frankly, he was a sentient being with no right to exist because he could only exist at the expense of the people whose DNA he had to unwittingly hijack in order to exist, and using the transporter is not consent to reproduce.
I mean, that's where "Tuvix" is a great episode. It has a moral quandary and Janeway has to make a decision that means the death of someone. The only complaint I have with it is like a lot of great Voyager episodes it doesn't impact anything down the road (like it would have been a good callback in "Author Author" if the Doctor's vengeful Captain was basically an exaggerated critique of Janeway for killing Tuvix, instead of just "as far as I know you've never killed any of my patients!")
That's also a fair point. No one in "The Enemy Within" argues that Evil Kirk and Good Kirk should be kept apart because they're now essentially two different sentient beings. Admittedly Good Kirk is falling to pieces and it's not like Evil Kirk actually makes an elegant defense of his life, but it's still a bit self-serving for the crew, just as I imagine a lot of the crew probably selfishly preferred having a less annoying version of Neelix and Tuvok.
That's also a fair point. No one in "The Enemy Within" argues that Evil Kirk and Good Kirk should be kept apart because they're now essentially two different sentient beings. Admittedly Good Kirk is falling to pieces and it's not like Evil Kirk actually makes an elegant defense of his life, but it's still a bit self-serving for the crew, just as I imagine a lot of the crew probably selfishly preferred having a less annoying version of Neelix and Tuvok.
Himynameischris
Member
So I'm about 10ish eps into TOS and I have a few questions,
1. Do they ever explain why they can't leave the galaxy? (The eps with the super humans) I thought reaching the Gamma quadrant was too much for them in DS9, suddenly they can leave the galaxy 200 years earlier?
2. In the eps Miri...do they ever go back to explain why there was a mirror imagine of earth off in the middle of some other solar system somewhere?
These aren't complaints btw I'm really enjoying the series but those moments kinda stick out after watching them.
1. Do they ever explain why they can't leave the galaxy? (The eps with the super humans) I thought reaching the Gamma quadrant was too much for them in DS9, suddenly they can leave the galaxy 200 years earlier?
2. In the eps Miri...do they ever go back to explain why there was a mirror imagine of earth off in the middle of some other solar system somewhere?
These aren't complaints btw I'm really enjoying the series but those moments kinda stick out after watching them.
Really it's just it was an episodic show that hadn't clearly defined its world yet.
Himynameischris
Member
Ah ok I won't expect too much then, still loving the show.
Wat.
No. Just... what? the? fuck? No, Janeway would not be "in the right" to kill someone to bring back two dead people, no matter the circumstances of their death. This is some straight up sociopathic bullshit right here.
Someone's right to exist is contingent on the method of their birth? WTF. The logical conclusions of this premise are deeply disturbing.
Also, the separated Kirks situation was somewhat different since there was some implication that each of them was not going to survive being separated (even if not explicitly said, 'evil Kirk' nearly collapsed near the end and they were clearly going for some kind of "essential components separated are less than their whole" thing). It's still pretty problematic, though, and I don't think it's a valid defense of what Janeway did. That TOS did a problematic thing doesn't mean Voyager gets off scot free.
As for the "it caused controversy so it's good" ridiculousness, no. No because the conclusion the episode reached about the rights of living beings in the Federation and Starfleet are deeply at odds with everything established before and there are literally *no consequences*. The universe approves, and so does much of the audience, and that's fucked up. Star Trek is supposed to appeal to our better natures. Tuvix appeals to our base nature: Our friends are more important than the strange and unknown. That's fucked.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
If the person killed existed at the expense of two dead people, why does the right of the live person supersede the rights of the two dead people? In what respect is that some kind of "higher" morality? It's not sociopathy, it's respect for the people who did not consent to be the constituent parts of some new being.
They don't kill Tuvix just because they want their friends back. That's thrown in to act as a dramatic wrench, certainly, but the larger consideration is that the right of Tuvok and Neelix to exist superseded that of Tuvix. Tuvix wanting to live does not give the Voyager crew the right to make a decision on behalf of Tuvok and Neelix to let their DNA be the framework on which a new being is built. The only "fucked" thing is the idea that some Picardian kvetching would have been somehow preferable to Janeway having the guts to throw out the usual Star Trek MO and do the morally right thing by undoing a transporter accident that trapped two people inside of a body that, while new and sentient, refused to let them go, which is what Tuvok and Neelix would have rightfully expected of the crew in consenting to use a transporter in the first place.
Sorry, Tuvix seemed like a nice guy, but Tuvok and Neelix had more rights to their own DNA and life processes than Tuvix did, full stop. That they threw out the typical Star Trek bullshit is WHY Janeway was right. Not bringing back Tuvok and Neelix if they had the ability to do so would have been an execution of its own.
funkystudent
Member
Ding dong Dax is dead.
Kind of surprised how little they really did with that character now that I am watching ds9 as a grown up. She is just there for Sisco to hang with and to technobabble most of the time and only really had around 5 stories it feels like.
Maybe my old crush for the character let me not really care back then.
Also I almost forgot how dumb the last season of ds9 is going to get and I am only remembering details now.
Kind of surprised how little they really did with that character now that I am watching ds9 as a grown up. She is just there for Sisco to hang with and to technobabble most of the time and only really had around 5 stories it feels like.
Maybe my old crush for the character let me not really care back then.
Also I almost forgot how dumb the last season of ds9 is going to get and I am only remembering details now.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Dax is fucking awful. Ezri Dax was slightly better, because she was so young and insecure, which was at least something resembling a personality, but Dax is pointless throughout the series.
I could write a thesis on the problems with the DS9 characters, tbh.
I could write a thesis on the problems with the DS9 characters, tbh.
Dax seems like a relic from when DS9 might've been about exploring strange new worlds in the Gamma Quadrant where a science officer would be useful on a regular basis. But the show evolved out of that approach after the first couple of seasons and her character had a hard time finding things to do. It didn't help that most of the Dax-centric episodes weren't much good.
You're arguing moral absolutism, which is a heck of a lot scarier than "sociopathic bullshit" to me. I don't think anyone generally likes turning ethical problems into math equations, but ultimately you have to make a choice. That's the whole point of the trolley problem; there isn't any clearly "right" answer, no matter what you and Snowman are arguing.
funkystudent
Member
That makes sense.
She had a spot early on at the technobabbler, had the token "lets do weird alien episodes with the alien part of the crew" episodes but once the Dominion pop up they move away from traditional Trek alien of the week exploration and she kinda fades into the back ground and pretty much anything they do with her from then on is Klingon stuff way more then trill stuff. And one Warf shows up she is used even less
Really ever Trek series has had the issue of the supporting cast becoming extraneous over time. The Original Series was the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy show, TNG was Data and Picard, Voyager had Seven and the Doctor, DS9 under the influence of RDM basically became That Klingon Show, featuring Avery "I'm not just spokesman for the William Shatner school of scenery chewing, I'm a client!" Brooks.
And then in the final season they realize they've made a mistake and throw in a bunch of scattershot plots for everyone else.
And then in the final season they realize they've made a mistake and throw in a bunch of scattershot plots for everyone else.
Master Thespian
Member
Would read.
I am deeply confused why you think I'm arguing for moral absolutism here. I know what I want Trek to be, but that doesn't mean I think there's One True Morality.
Moral absolutism *is* boiling things down to weird "ownership of DNA" kinds of ideas. That Tuvix had literally less right to live than other people (regardless of the circumstances of his birth) is certainly *an* ideology that is morally consistent with itself, but it's not one I'm interested in watching Trek validate. The fact that it's considered acceptable among Trek fans boggles my mind, given how consistently it expressed the opposite notion. People sacrifice themselves all the time in Trek, but Tuvix and The Enemy Within are the only times I can recall a Trek captain literally killing someone while they begged for their lives.
I really don't think people are seriously considering the implications of saying that someone can have no right to live based on how they were born, and that the punishment *for their birth* can extend throughout their lives.
And a trolley problem where you're trying to decide whether to run the trolley into two dead people to save one living person is not even remotely a difficult one. Even if you hope and pray that the two dead people come back to life if the other person dies. Tuvix died for a *chance* at bringing dead people back to life.
Himynameischris
Member
lol I get that same feeling
I noticed this so far (and granted I'm only like 10 eps in) but Scotty, Uhura and Sulu are pretty much background characters at this point. The blond yeoman girl (Can't recall her name) has more important scenes than any of them so far.
To be fair to TOS, it was never supposed to be anything else. Much of the fan interest in other characters was built up from early fanfic and later the movies. Scotty, Uhura, Nurse Chapel, Yeoman Rand, Sulu and eventually Chekov had *names*, but they had no presented backstory or much more than a small smattering of character traits. It was never an ensemble show.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
It wasn't really "a chance", though. They had already separated several flowers and knew exactly what they needed to do to compensate for increased human complexity. They knew, with a reasonable degree of certainty, that they could bring Tuvok and Neelix back, and Janeway judged that it was the ethical thing to do, which it was. Tuvix was essentially a science experiment, an experiment that neither Tuvok nor Neelix had consented to, and to essentially hold them hostage inside of another being was unjust toward them and unfair to their friends and families.
Edit: The thing with TOS is I think you could argue that it was more honest about being the Kirk/Spock/McCoy show than any subsequent series ever was about who its interesting characters were. TNG makes you sit through Geordi, Worf, and Troi episodes, DS9 has Dax and Bashir episodes, Voyager has non-Janeway/Doctor/7 of 9 episodes in general, and they just make you want to die.
Edit: The thing with TOS is I think you could argue that it was more honest about being the Kirk/Spock/McCoy show than any subsequent series ever was about who its interesting characters were. TNG makes you sit through Geordi, Worf, and Troi episodes, DS9 has Dax and Bashir episodes, Voyager has non-Janeway/Doctor/7 of 9 episodes in general, and they just make you want to die.
Again, this is Star Trek. They ran the test on the plants and it worked fine. There was no real jeopardy that they wouldn't get Tuvok and Neelix backin fact Tuvix never even brings that up in his defense.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Tuvix was a great moral dilemma at the end. I also give full credit to Mulgrew for that pained look on her face as she walks out. It's Voyager, so there won't be any continuity, that was her only chance. It was a tough decision. She chose to save two of her friends by killing someone. There was no right choice for her to make.
I clearly don't know it's star trek since I keep appealing to the nature of Trek?
Whether it was a possibility or not is not key to my argument. They were dead, tuvix was alive. Tuvix, with both of them represented in his consciousness, did not consent to die to bring them back. This entire thing rests on the idea that Tuvix had no right to choose his own sacrifice. He is a living, sentient being and he was not afforded such a fundamental basic right as that, because according to the line of thinking you're defending he "did not have a right to live." That's bonkers.
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
This is cute. It is so because it is so.
It's a great dilemma in general, but Trek is not well equipped as a framework of storytelling to tell it. This kind of "but she had no good choice!" kind of thing ignores that the writers invented the choice she had to make. They chose to write a Trek story that hinged on a captain having to do something horrifying and then wash her hands of it. Whenever this comes up people get ridiculously hung up in the in-universe justification, as if it isn't an invention of a human being itself, a web of facts designed to come to a conclusion. And that conclusion is, as Snowman said, "Tuvix had no right to live." There's no getting around that.
This is something that DS9 could have done much better, because then at least the dilemma would have been truly represented. But that also relates to my negative opinion of DS9-as-Trek anyways.
He had the same right to live as anyone else, but him living required the lives of two other people. We pretty much uniformly hold that you don't get to kill other humans for preservation unless it's self-defense. You frame it as Tuvok and Neelix being killed, but they were merged; there were no bodies, and essentially their minds continued to exist in the same merged way (this of course seems like it could never even come close to working even deliberately, but such are the parameters the episode sets.)
It's unfortunate we don't get much more about Tuvok and Neelix's reaction to everything, but by all indications they are aware of everything that transpired and certainly didn't yell at Janeway to merge them back.
I don't agree with Snowman that it was clearly the ethical thing to do, because ethics isn't black and white. But it was still a choice rooted in morals.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I stated why I think it the moral choice (and it's unnecessary to state "imo" because of course it is my opinion, I am the one stating it) - Tuvix existed at the expense of two people that they had every capability of bringing back. Death in Star Trek is always a function of whether or not their medical technology is able to reverse whatever it is that is causing you to be dead, not some absolute, insuperable cross over to some other side, so to just go "Tuvok and Neelix were dead" when the crew had every capability of restoring them is to set different rules in this case than apply in other cases. Why did Tuvix have the right to the memories, abilities, DNA, and life processes of two beings who had not consented to creating him in the first place? Why does sentience in the here and now supersede the rights of the people that have to stay dead in order to sustain it?
Yep.
TOS
Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry
Starring William Shatner
Also Starring Leonard Nimoy as Mr Spock
And DeForest Kelley as Dr McCoy
Shatner was a Star with separate billing above the regular category of Star (which was Nimoy/Kelley). Everyone else was shuffled off into the ending under the heading of "Featuring", which came after the guests-of-the-week who were Co-Stars.
Star Trek the Motion Picture
Starring William Shatner
Leonard Nimoy
DeForest Kelley
Co-Starring James Doohan
George Takei
Walter Koenig
Nichelle Nichols
Majel Barrett
Nimoy and Kelley were put on the same level as Shatner, although Shatner retained top billing over them (his name gets mentioned first). The rest of the gang was upgraded to Co-Star status.
TNG gave "Star over Star" status to Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes (with Stewart holding top billing over Frakes), and then they put the rest of the regular cast into the opening as "Also Starring" (the same position held by Nimoy/Kelly), in alphabetical order (alphabetical either means a tremendous coincidence in terms of seniority, or they're all considered equals, unlike Nimoy/Kelley or Stewart/Frakes or Shatner/anyone).
And those merged minds were literally begging to be allowed to live in their current form.
That they're apparently ok with it after the fact is just bizarre, doesn't follow well from what we see before, and is part of the problem with doing this kind of story in Trek, and especially episodic Trek.
My primary contention here is that this is not good Trek and not good simply because it riles people (yes, including me) up. That is not in itself a positive thing.
Stupid Youtube. I specifically searched for 1966.
At least I didn't bump into any of those videos where the uploader decided to "improve" the audio. Those always make me want to puke.
Tuvix is a sentient being that committed no crime. His existence was ended against his will by a Starfleet captain acting in full knowledge of his sentience. His origins are not grounds to end his existence, not after he has gained sentience.
Janeway murdered him in cold blood.
Janeway murdered him in cold blood.
Ultimately, the dilemma in Tuvix failed, because arguments and options for each side were never really explored. Instead of the kind of nuanced arguments being had now, or trying to convince Tuvix to sacrifice himself, the writers reduced the dilemma to "I want to live!" and "Nuh uh, I liked those guys;" all real discussions fans have about the episode are more about what could/should have been the reasons made rather than what the episode actually presents.
glaringradio
Member
Was this posted in here yet? I'm not a massive Star Trek fan given that I only ever really enjoyed TNG, so I find this absolutely glorious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs
Probably the best compositing I've seen in an amateur Youtube video, and he's definitely got the mannerisms down despite looking nothing like Spiner or Stewart.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Watching through Dark Frontier Parts 1 and 2 again from Voyager and I just noticed something, young Seven looks like a female version of Haley Joel Osment lol.
Himynameischris
Member
So watching the Talos IV eps I appreciate the futurama star trek eps even more now lol So did they plan that out ahead of time? Is that why the pilot was Captain Pike and not Kirk? The sudden change to the next episode was a little weird. I don't like that they are replaying so much of the first episode though, seems lazy.
the lighting in this is fantastic
"The Cage" was never actually aired; the pilot was rejected and a new one commissioned, which is how we got "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (which still didn't end up being the first episode of the series shown.) Jeffrey Hunter (Pike) ultimately didn't want to commit to another pilot (some sources say it was his decision, others that it was his wife, and others that he was basically fired because his wife started making excessive demands) nor to a television series contract, and so Pike was out and Kirk and Shatner came in. "The Menagerie" was basically a way to construct a cheap frame tale so that they could use "The Cage" footage.
Himynameischris
Member
Ah wow that's crazy no wonder they are showing so much of it. So why was it included in the first season on netflix?
Added value. If everyone has already seen the first season in TV reruns, you can help nudge them towards buying the DVDs by saying "Now includes 'The Cage' unaired pilot episode!"
After a while it's just expected/demanded that it be included.
"The Cage" ended up getting its own home video release, but it doesn't really "fit" anywhere but right before the series proper; I guess they could create some sort of "Extras" season to stick this stuff, but they don't. After you finish the seventh season of The Next Generation, you hit a featurette they made for the end of the series that doesn't "belong" either.
Himynameischris
Member
Well it does take place 13 years before so I guess it makes the most sense at the front. Yeah I noticed that when watching TNG, I never went back to watch that, was it any good?
Yeah that makes sense
I have a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine question, if that fits the theme of the thread.
I'm currently watching Deep Space Nine for the very first time, previously having been a huge fan of Star Trek: TNG and the Original Series.
My question is...does Dr Julian Bashir keep making unwanted sexual advances on Dax throughout the entire series? Because I'm about halfway through the first season, and he's starting to make me seriously uncomfortable. Dax clearly isn't interested on him, but Bashir constantly makes these really creepy remarks around her. Like in one episode she's complaining about being tired, and Julian's all like "I'D BET YOU SLEEP A LOT BETTER IN MY QUARTERS" The dude is such a fucking creeper. Dax keeps turning him down again and again, but he's just not taking the fucking hint.
I've just about reached my limit after watching an episode where, after Dax firmly turns him down for the thousandth time and returns to her quarters to sleep, Julian is all "I BET WHEN SHE SAID "NO" TO MY ADVANCES, SHE ACTUALLY SAID YES!" and decides to fucking follow her into her quarters. Like, jesus christ!
I get the impression that I'm supposed all this sexual harassment stuff really charming or whatever, but honestly I'm just finding it a little bit unsettling. Does Bashir ever cut it out eventually?
I'm currently watching Deep Space Nine for the very first time, previously having been a huge fan of Star Trek: TNG and the Original Series.
My question is...does Dr Julian Bashir keep making unwanted sexual advances on Dax throughout the entire series? Because I'm about halfway through the first season, and he's starting to make me seriously uncomfortable. Dax clearly isn't interested on him, but Bashir constantly makes these really creepy remarks around her. Like in one episode she's complaining about being tired, and Julian's all like "I'D BET YOU SLEEP A LOT BETTER IN MY QUARTERS" The dude is such a fucking creeper. Dax keeps turning him down again and again, but he's just not taking the fucking hint.
I've just about reached my limit after watching an episode where, after Dax firmly turns him down for the thousandth time and returns to her quarters to sleep, Julian is all "I BET WHEN SHE SAID "NO" TO MY ADVANCES, SHE ACTUALLY SAID YES!" and decides to fucking follow her into her quarters. Like, jesus christ!
I get the impression that I'm supposed all this sexual harassment stuff really charming or whatever, but honestly I'm just finding it a little bit unsettling. Does Bashir ever cut it out eventually?
He doesn't keep doing it and eventually Bashir gets more likeable.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
He's supposed to be the wet behind the ears 20-something who is enamored with the mysterious older femme fatale. I always got the feeling that she just found it hilarious that this child was bothering her all the time.
Of course, there's that Troi episode that honestly is the culmination of all the weird shipping creepiness from the early years. lol
Of course, there's that Troi episode that honestly is the culmination of all the weird shipping creepiness from the early years. lol