• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

Sotha_Sil

Member
Who's the best minor/sub character?

Obviously some series like tng from my recollcation doesn't have many as every episode is more of less standalone.

I think the most obvious answer would be Q

However dn9 has so many great characters.

Brunt gets my vote.

My votes would be Q, Shran, and Enabran Tain.

Garak would be my top choice, but he's in enough episodes to count as a major character, imo. Same with Martok.
 
I've been watching TNG. I got to the episode where the whole enterprise needs to be irradiated or whatever, and Picard ends up stuck on it with a band of thieves. Something I hadn't noticed until this rewatch is that it has Tim Russ in it as a thief. It's hilarious watching him fight with Picard and lose, via a Vulcan neck pinch. XD

I've always hated Tuvok because he's a terrible Vulcan who is really emotional. Worst Vulcan ever, even worse than T'Pol whose own mother told her she sucked at being a Vulcan.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Per that other thread, it looks like the Axanar suit is still going and they lost the use of the "fair use" defence. So JJ/Lin/whoever made up the fact that the suit was dropped I guess. lol
 

Sephzilla

Member
Tuvok is a jerk who clearly has emotional biases and a superiority complex, but is too stuck up to admit that he's not perfect. So, I like Tuvok because he's basically a perfect realization of what Vulcans are.
 
Tuvok is a jerk who clearly has emotional biases and a superiority complex, but is too stuck up to admit that he's not perfect. So, I like Tuvok because he's basically a perfect realization of what Vulcans are.

Well, that's a sad summary. :(

I liked Vulcans when there was mostly just Spock and his dad.

I understand that argument, but it is a shame. I think Vulcans are an ideal for some humans who have trouble understanding emotion.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Vulcans are great characters but I kind of like the institutionalized hypocrisy they tend to have. Vulcan's are super respected in the federation and are valued for their wealth of insight and knowledge, so everyone kind of tolerates their bullshit and doesn't call them out on it because they don't want to alienate the Vulcans. Almost every Vulcan who isn't Spock is kind of a jerk to humans. Even Spock's dad is a bit of a jerk. Enterprise and the 2009 movie drove this home further.

Spock's dad - jerk
Tuvok - jerk / hypocrite
T'Pol - stuck up
Vulcan leaders from Enterprise - huge jerks
Vulcans in 2009 reboot - massive jerks who border on xenophobic
 
Very true. I actually quite liked them as an antagonist in Enterprise. I know some purists didn't like the Vulcans being an obstacle, but it made perfect sense. They were written to be better - longer lived, stronger, faster, no angst. Of course there would be conflict since humans don't like feeling inferior.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Yeah, Vulcans collectively have a lot of traits that would trigger hostility in humans which is why they were perfect in an antagonistic role in Enterprise. Plus showing how humans and vulcans co-exist later down the line in TOS and TNG shows how far humanity has evolved to get past some of those flaws.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Well, that's a sad summary. :(

I liked Vulcans when there was mostly just Spock and his dad.

I understand that argument, but it is a shame. I think Vulcans are an ideal for some humans who have trouble understanding emotion.

Not just people who don't understand emotions, but people who would prefer not to have them. Honestly if I were to make my Star Trek series I'd include a character like this, because I think the Vulcan ideology would be an interesting fit for the 24th century offshoot of stuff like Stoicism. Especially after something like the Dominion War I think there would be a lot of reactionary philosophical and artistic movements, and embracing Vulcan purging of emotion could be one way people deal with it.

Plus, it'd be a rare example of humans trying to be more like another alien race, instead of aliens trying to be like humans, which is always nice.
 
Per that other thread, it looks like the Axanar suit is still going and they lost the use of the "fair use" defence. So JJ/Lin/whoever made up the fact that the suit was dropped I guess. lol

The Prelude short was so great. It sucks so bad CBS going after them (and not the billion other fan films).
 

DBT85

Member
Still working my way through Voyager. Generally enjoying it but there are of course some times when I want to bang my head on the desk.

I'm at season 5, ep 20, Juggernaut. It features the Malon.

This is just a few episodes after Voyager has rescued Seven from the Borg Queen and managed to use a Borg Transwarp Coil to travel 15,000 lightyears and take 15-20 years off their journey home.

Still the Malon though. Still pissing around hauling garbage. Just like they were some 15,000 light years away.
 
Vulcans are great characters but I kind of like the institutionalized hypocrisy they tend to have. Vulcan's are super respected in the federation and are valued for their wealth of insight and knowledge, so everyone kind of tolerates their bullshit and doesn't call them out on it because they don't want to alienate the Vulcans. Almost every Vulcan who isn't Spock is kind of a jerk to humans. Even Spock's dad is a bit of a jerk. Enterprise and the 2009 movie drove this home further.

Spock's dad - jerk
Tuvok - jerk / hypocrite
T'Pol - stuck up
Vulcan leaders from Enterprise - huge jerks
Vulcans in 2009 reboot - massive jerks who border on xenophobic

Captain Solok -- jerk who somehow liked baseball.
 
Ya know, Section 31 trying to genocide the founders and Bashir and O'Brien keeping Slone artificially alive so they can rummage through his memories while he slowly dies is kinda maybe not what Gene had in mind for utopian future.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Ya know, Section 31 trying to genocide the founders and Bashir and O'Brien keeping Slone artificially alive so they can rummage through his memories while he slowly dies is kinda maybe not what Gene had in mind for utopian future.
The whole Dominion War goes against what he wanted so. lol

The Prelude short was so great. It sucks so bad CBS going after them (and not the billion other fan films).
I guess to be fair, the Axanar guy kept trolling and a lot of the new conditions seemed to be made specifically to stop the Axanar people from making anything (nothing longer than 15 minutes, no former Trek cast/crew, no professionals).

I guess it's the first project to try to generate some merchandise as well, which is probably a big no no.

That said, I have no idea what's happening with the other pseudo-pro productions like ST: Continues or that Tuvok black ops thing.
 
I went through DS9 season 1 again.

I would watch a sitcom with Dukat and Zek as room mates.


Starting this re-watch, I'm pretty sure now DS9 was my favorite series.
 
Captain Solok -- jerk who somehow liked baseball.

He didn't like baseball at all. He just wanted to beat Sisko down at his own game. Which is a manipulative use of emotion, that a Vulcan frankly shouldn't understand. That's my problem with most of the Vulcans in the various shows. According to their own philosophies, they're hypocrites. And they shouldn't be. It's like the writers can't dissociate from their own emotions enough to actually write a sincere Vulcan.
 

Pluto

Member
He didn't like baseball at all. He just wanted to beat Sisko down at his own game. Which is a manipulative use of emotion, that a Vulcan frankly shouldn't understand. That's my problem with most of the Vulcans in the various shows. According to their own philosophies, they're hypocrites. And they shouldn't be. It's like the writers can't dissociate from their own emotions enough to actually write a sincere Vulcan.
Vulcan's have been potrayed as emotional hypocritical arrogant jerks since TOS, fans often make the mistake to look at Spock and think he represents a typical vulcan when he is the exception and not the rule.
They just pretend to supress their emotions and don't show them outwardly for the most part but they have been always there.
 
The whole Dominion War goes against what he wanted so. lol


I guess to be fair, the Axanar guy kept trolling and a lot of the new conditions seemed to be made specifically to stop the Axanar people from making anything (nothing longer than 15 minutes, no former Trek cast/crew, no professionals).

I guess it's the first project to try to generate some merchandise as well, which is probably a big no no.

That said, I have no idea what's happening with the other pseudo-pro productions like ST: Continues or that Tuvok black ops thing.

The merchandise is all sold as donations to the Axanar movie though, which is non-profit. I'm pretty sure the merchandise is all based on Axanar created things also, logos, names, quotes, ship designs etc so I'm not sure where that falls legally.

ST Continues not updated their blog since August but they did say they were told by CBS fan films will be dealt with on a case by case basis, they were hoping they could continue. Of course if they continue that strengthens Axanar's case, possible CBS told them to halt for the time being.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
He didn't like baseball at all. He just wanted to beat Sisko down at his own game. Which is a manipulative use of emotion, that a Vulcan frankly shouldn't understand. That's my problem with most of the Vulcans in the various shows. According to their own philosophies, they're hypocrites. And they shouldn't be. It's like the writers can't dissociate from their own emotions enough to actually write a sincere Vulcan.

Frankly I think Sisko and co. come off as the bigger assholes here, given that they rise to the bait and they're main characters so we expect more from them.

But really the writers like making Vulcans assholes and it leads to this weird subtext where all the humans are pretty much racist to Vulcans.

The merchandise is all sold as donations to the Axanar movie though, which is non-profit. I'm pretty sure the merchandise is all based on Axanar created things also, logos, names, quotes, ship designs etc so I'm not sure where that falls legally.

ST Continues not updated their blog since August but they did say they were told by CBS fan films will be dealt with on a case by case basis, they were hoping they could continue. Of course if they continue that strengthens Axanar's case, possible CBS told them to halt for the time being.

They were still making money off this, including pouring money from Axanar into other projects.

But really arguing a fair use defense was never gonna' work for them. It's a fan film, it can't be divested from the copyrighted material you drew from unless you completely change the story, characters, designs, and technology.

Fair use defends stuff like using clips for film criticism or educational purposes. They were always going to have a tough time (and they should) saying that something they were profiting off of was fair use.
 
They were still making money off this, including pouring money from Axanar into other projects.

But really arguing a fair use defense was never gonna' work for them. It's a fan film, it can't be divested from the copyrighted material you drew from unless you completely change the story, characters, designs, and technology.

Fair use defends stuff like using clips for film criticism or educational purposes. They were always going to have a tough time (and they should) saying that something they were profiting off of was fair use.

What were they using to make a profit exactly? I hear this so much (often from Axanar haters, not saying you're one though) but when it comes to citation I hear nothing.

As far as I am aware they created a production company for the Axanar movie (and future fan movies) which was non profit, and they created the website company to deal with merchandise and backer rewards, again non profit as it all donations to the movie and to backers.


They haven't really took much from directly from Trek imo, Soval from Enterprise is the biggest thing, after that comes Garth of Izar, a character that appeared once in TOS. Then general concepts like the Federation, Klingons, Vulcans etc.

The story of the Battle of Axanar is pretty much all original since every source on it throughout the years have depicted wildly different events, from a single 1v1 battle vs a Klingon to all out war with a species called Axanari, Axanar copies none of them afaik. Ship designs are original, other characters are original, emblems and such original.

Aside from changing the names of a few things, mainly characters and species, they could not change anything else and it would have no link to Trek. If they lose I'm hoping this is what they'll do.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Non-profit is just a kind if organisation with some extra rules around what it does with and how it reports income. It doesn't mean that the people involved in it don't make any money, it just means that any revenue has to be divested somehow, either through work performed by employees or into resources for the organisation's goals (but explicitly not as dividends to the organisation's owners).

Non-profits are still subject to copyright and trademark laws.
 
Non-profit is just a kind if organisation with some extra rules around what it does with and how it reports income. It doesn't mean that the people involved in it don't make any money, it just means that any revenue has to be divested somehow, either through work performed by employees or into resources for the organisation's goals (but explicitly not as dividends to the organisation's owners).

Non-profits are still subject to copyright and trademark laws.

How is this different to any other fan movie that was crowdfunded? They all go to a company or individual.
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Are there Star Trek YouTube Channels that habe wiki-eske approach? Like videos that explain us the Borg, whats the deal with Romolus and Remus and what happened in the first Dominion War?
 
Lol.

Liquidator Brunt in one scene then Weyoun in the next.



I said it before but they better find a part for Jeffrey Combs in Discovery. Even for one episode as the alien of the week. The man is a treasure
 

kingkaiser

Member
Yea, Jeffrey Combs performance is always outstanding.

Did you know he auditioned for the role of William T. Riker?

To think what could have been...damn.
 
Yea, Jeffrey Combs performance is always outstanding.

Did you know he auditioned for the role of William T. Riker?

To think what could have been...damn.

Yes but then we wouldn't have this

jgbKhk5.gif
 
DS9 Finished. Looked back and I made my first post about rewatching it on 09-21-2015, @ 09:25 PM. So give or take 15 months.

That finale is OK. Aint no "All Good Things..." but what is?

Read that the final Sisco vrs Dukat fight is so lame is because when they first filmed it Avery Brooks accidentally punched the other guy so hard he had to take some time to heal his face but by then Brooks had other commitments elsewhere so they just filmed both actors on two different days. That makes sense when watching it because that scene is really short for the big climax.

These big final episodes where they go out of their way to say goodbye to all the characters you know are always a bit emotional. I am going to watch something happy.


Overall DS9 is pretty great you guys.

Oh and anyone remember having a crush on Dax when they where younger but totally dig Kira when they got older? Asking for a friend.
 

Sephzilla

Member
That conversation about Vulcans generally being hypocrites regarding emotions and usually being jerks also kind of makes you step back and realize how similar they really are to the Romulans - or specifically how thin the line between Vulcan/Romulan really is. Romulans are just Vulcans who are more accepting of the fact that they're giant jerks, lol.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
That conversation about Vulcans generally being hypocrites regarding emotions and usually being jerks also kind of makes you step back and realize how similar they really are to the Romulans - or specifically how thin the line between Vulcan/Romulan really is. Romulans are just Vulcans who are more accepting of the fact that they're giant jerks, lol.
Well, Romulans are just Vulcans with philosophical differences after all.

I still wish they did more with the Sybok thing though, but I guess everyone would rather just forget STV happened.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Man, since you brought it up, I have an odd love for Star Trek V. The movie kinda sucks but I like the idea of the story and, like The Motion Picture, I feel like it would have made for a fantastic normal episode of the show.

seven_kirk_07.jpg


Kirk being the cynical one who questions "God" fucking kills me. Everyone else is awed by being in the presence of a deity and Kirk stops everything because his bullshit detector goes off.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Man, since you brought it up, I have an odd love for Star Trek V. The movie kinda sucks but I like the idea of the story and, like The Motion Picture, I feel like it would have made for a fantastic normal episode of the show.

http://www.millionaireplayboy.com/mpb/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/seven_kirk_07.jpg

Kirk being the cynical one who questions "God" fucking kills me. Everyone else is awed by being in the presence of a deity and Kirk stops everything because his bullshit detector goes off.
There's a fan edit that basically turns it into a TOS episode by making it 50 minutes, and it works really well in that context. I think there are some decent ideas in the film, filled with all this stupid cruft that turns the film into a joke.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
There's a fan edit that basically turns it into a TOS episode by making it 50 minutes, and it works really well in that context. I think there are some decent ideas in the film, filled with all this stupid cruft that turns the film into a joke.

Yeah, STV is a film that with better effects and edits could have solved most of its issues, as opposed to some films with flaws that run far deeper (Insurrection falls into the latter category for me.)

One of these days I've been meaning to take a whack at TMP and see how much you could edit it down and improve things. Since we're unlikely to ever get TMP:DE on Blu-Ray might as well use the theatrical one.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I should watch TMP again one of these days. It's the one film that I haven't really gone back to since that DE DVD came out.

I assume you'd cut that Enterprise glory shot, if nothing else. lol
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I should watch TMP again one of these days. It's the one film that I haven't really gone back to since that DE DVD came out.

I assume you'd cut that Enterprise glory shot, if nothing else. lol

Well yeah even including a lot of Goldsmith's score you could trim 2-3 minutes off that approach, easy :p Maybe you should just wait for my edit before watching. Then you can be like me, who only watched a fan edit of all three Hobbit movies trimmed down to 2 1/2 hours, and ask why everyone complained :p
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Well yeah even including a lot of Goldsmith's score you could trim 2-3 minutes off that approach, easy :p Maybe you should just wait for my edit before watching. Then you can be like me, who only watched a fan edit of all three Hobbit movies trimmed down to 2 1/2 hours, and ask why everyone complained :p
Wait, did someone actually do that to the Hobbit films? Yes, I assume that would be a vastly different experience. lol
 
Man, since you brought it up, I have an odd love for Star Trek V. The movie kinda sucks but I like the idea of the story and, like The Motion Picture, I feel like it would have made for a fantastic normal episode of the show.

seven_kirk_07.jpg


Kirk being the cynical one who questions "God" fucking kills me. Everyone else is awed by being in the presence of a deity and Kirk stops everything because his bullshit detector goes off.

Still better than all the JJ films combined even with all its faults
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
I've watched V beginning to end more times than TMP. It is frankly more entertaining despite being a much worse film.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I've watched V beginning to end more times than TMP. It is frankly more entertaining despite being a much worse film.

That's another reason I probably rank it higher than the bad TNG films. It's just far more entertaining to watch, even if you're laughing at them.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Man, since you brought it up, I have an odd love for Star Trek V. The movie kinda sucks but I like the idea of the story and, like The Motion Picture, I feel like it would have made for a fantastic normal episode of the show.

http://www.millionaireplayboy.com/mpb/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/seven_kirk_07.jpg

Kirk being the cynical one who questions "God" fucking kills me. Everyone else is awed by being in the presence of a deity and Kirk stops everything because his bullshit detector goes off.

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/a108.php

"2/10, would watch again"
 
Top Bottom