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[maharg]

None of that really matters now. The deal with B5 is that if you're a fan of series-spanning plot arcs, you MUST watch it (and don't listen to Dax01's crazy ramblings -- B5's long term arcs kick DS9's ass, fact). No show before or since has had such a thoroughly planned out start to finish plot arc, and it really broke new ground on that front, as well as in the establishment of the concept of a 'show runner' in scifi television, with 100 out of the 110 episodes being outright written by the creator and producer of the show. Both being things that have become essential in the genre to varying degrees since.

You do have to accept the context in which it was created, though, to enjoy it. You have to realize that the reason it took JMS somewhere around 8 years to get it on the air is because SF television was considered largely dead, and then something that only Star Trek could do, so even when it finally did get on the air it had a shitty budget to work with and that affected everything from effects to the caliber of actor it could get.

 

[benjipwns]

Plus the whole part where it was cancelled, then un-cancelled but after he had already written a bunch of a season arc into like a couple episodes. And then there's the various crap regarding the movies and the spin-off.

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

No show before or since has had such a thoroughly planned out start to finish plot arc, and it really broke new ground on that front, as well as in the establishment

The show was great at having visions of the future that actually happened years later, Sheridan meeting Londo as king being a prime example.

Plus the whole part where it was cancelled, then un-cancelled but after he had already written a bunch of a season arc into like a couple episodes. And then there's the various crap regarding the movies and the spin-off.

Yeah the follow up stuff was really shitty, Like the show that had a woman spinning around and punching to fire the ships weapons but at least the very last story with Sheridan talking in the Prince (I think he was a Prince) was a nice way to leave it.

 

[maharg]

Yeah, alas JMS' further work hasn't really lived up. I think it's because of the combination of the time he had to plan it (nearly a decade) and the drive he had to see it succeed that just wasn't there in subsequent efforts.

I feel much the same about Joss Whedon, tbh. Post-Buffy-Season-5 I just don't think he ever did quite as good work, except briefly with Firefly but then Serenity kind of shitted that up.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Crusade had its moments, but I wish I had never seen The Legend of The Rangers.

 

[Instigator]

That was 1991, Paramount got their hands on B5 plans in 1989. It doesn't really matter which episode or series came out first, it's a well known fact that B5 creator JMS was trying to sell his series to several companies before he succeeded, Paramount being one of those.

The concept of DS9 is not farfetched, it's logical. If regular Trek is just a sci-fi twist on a wagon series concept, then DS9 is just a frontier town in space.

 

[The Librarian]

None of that really matters now. The deal with B5 is that if you're a fan of series-spanning plot arcs, you MUST watch it (and don't listen to Dax01's crazy ramblings -- B5's long term arcs kick DS9's ass, fact).

Well, I'm going to dispute this "fact." Sorry man, but I thought the two major conflicts in B5 –

Spoiler

the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War

– were neither as interesting nor involving than the

Spoiler

Dominion War

in DS9, which was larger in scope in relation to the show's setting, and handled the concept of war better.

But you're asking me to find fault with my two favorite shows. I love both immensely. You also seem to be holding a grudge or whatever to something that happened over two years ago. Time to let it go, man.

 

[Proc]

I just bought the original movie series on blu ray on the cheap. Its the first time I've ever watched these movies.

Finished the original movie and Wrath of Khan this weekend. The first movie was interesting but very slow. Wrath of Khan was a lot of fun. I'm definitely looking forward to watching the rest and maybe getting into the tv show too.

 

[maharg]

The wars in question were the entire scope of B5, so I'm not sure how you could possibly argue anything in terms of relative scope. And it's just plain fact that the B5 arc is more thoroughly constructed.

It's always been pretty obvious that, for you, DS9 will always come out on top in any comparison with anything. Everything else that you said is just plain opinion, and that's fine. It's just really weird to highlight the individual character arcs in B5 (which were mostly hacked up all to hell by actor changes anyways) and be down on the series arcs, which are to date by far the most ambitious of any ever done on television.

No idea what you're talking about with any kind of grudge. At most I find your inability to find any flaw in your favorite show extremely grating. If I had some kind of grudge I'd have put you on ignore ages ago.

 

[The Librarian]

The wars in question were the entire scope of B5, so I'm not sure how you could possibly argue anything in terms of relative scope.

Scope as in relation to the show's setting, not the show itself. The war in DS9 went far beyond DS9. Sfdebris put it pretty well in his review of "In the Pale Moonlight," but I can't find it at the moment (he took down his youtube videos). B5 had everything revolved around B5. Which is fine. I love it that way too.

It's just really weird to highlight the individual character arcs in B5 (which were mostly hacked up all to hell by actor changes anyways)

I was mainly thinking of Londo and G'Kar when I said that, and I can't think of any character arc in DS9 that is better than those two. And Sheridan, come to think of it.

and be down on the series arcs, which are to date by far the most ambitious of any ever done on television.

Well, for one,

Spoiler

the

Spoiler

Shadow War

wasn't really a war until the final moments of it. Until then it was just a series of skirmishes really. I thought the

Spoiler

Shadow War

really didn't get interesting until it was nearly over (third season finale, its involvement with Centauri Prime and Londo's fate). Even through my first viewing, I had always been more interested and much more involved with the

Spoiler

Earth Civil War

than the other B5 war. Loved the

Spoiler

human vs. human aspect of it and the principles behind it made it more epic I felt.

No idea what you're talking about with any kind of grudge.

"Crazy ramblings." And your writing, at least to me, seems to have some sort of controlled anger when responding to me. I haven't mentioned DS9's faults because the discussion hasn't called for that. I'm just posting why I prefer DS9 over B5. If you ask me to post what faults I have with DS9, I'll list 'em, but you know, I was hesitant to make that initial post because I was thinking of you responding like you did afterward. I wish I hadn't now.

I'll list a few right now. I wish the show knew what it wanted to be from the outset. The fact that it didn't really hurt the show in the first two and a half seasons. When it hit what it later would be, it was great ("Duet" and "The Wire") and when it was trying to be TNG, it was bad ("Move Along Home" and "Invasive Procedures"). The writers also didn't know what to do with Dax until about the third season, which made her character boring the first two seasons. With every repeat viewing, overall, I like the alternate universe episodes less and less. And even though I like His Way, I can definitely see the criticisms of it (sfdebris' review). Also, "Profit and Lace" is a sin against humanity.

Edit: If I misinterpreted your feelings from your posting, I apologize.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Scope as in relation to the show's setting, not the show itself. The war in DS9 went far beyond DS9. Sfdebris put it pretty well in his review of "In the Pale Moonlight," but I can't find it at the moment (he took down his youtube videos). B5 had everything revolved around B5. Which is fine. I love it that way too.

B5 was the setting just like DS9 was the setting of DS9, but the events in both were galaxy wide. The Dominion war stuff was some of the best of Trek but to me it suffered from the Trek tropes and the show constantly going off the rails and just forgetting about the war with it's many one off episodes. B5 just had stronger focus on what was going on with the politics and war. Course some would find it too soapy at times being focused on war and drama while DS9 was able to take things more light hearted.

Also B5 had some of the best Naval combat of any sci fi series, it felt realistic while dominion war battles to me were huge dissapointments of lot of silly combat, such as so many ships apparently fighting with no shields, constant one shotting of vessels, extreme close up combat, resusing footage, etc.

 

[The Librarian]

B5 was the setting just like DS9 was the setting of DS9, but the events in both were galaxy wide.

That's not what I meant. DS9 had events in the Dominion War that took place off screen, showing that the war went far beyond DS9 (battles and such). DS9 didn't show the Dominion War in its entirety. B5 showed every conflict in its entirety. The show was pretty much those conflicts. I guess I'm not wording it the proper way. I still don't feel like I am. sfdebris worded a lot better than I am. Or maybe I'm misremembering B5. That could be a possibility.

The Dominion war stuff was some of the best of Trek but to me it suffered from the Trek tropes and the show constantly going off the rails and just forgetting about the war with it's many one off episodes.

The conflict was readily mentioned in many episodes throughout season six, even though said episodes had nothing to do with the war at all. It's more like, despite the war, life in space still goes on. And part of it deals with scope--nothing everything in Dominion War dealt with DS9, so there was no need to mention it in every episode. The Dominion War is DS9; DS9 is not the Dominion War. Not everything in one aspect of your life has to be mentioned at every moment.

But this brings about another fault I have with DS9, and this applies more to season seven than anything, is that it had some great episodes that had nothing to do with the war but weren't needed. They should've spent those episodes fleshing out the war.

Also B5 had some of the best Naval combat of any sci fi series

Yup. Especially

Spoiler

the Earth Civil War stuff

such as so many ships apparently fighting with no shields, constant one shotting of vessels, extreme close up combat, resusing footage, etc.

I think most of that had to do with budget problems. But I do wish the battles showcased ships with shields and stuff like you said.

 

[GameplayWhore]

major conflicts in B5 –

Spoiler

the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War

– were neither as interesting nor involving than the

Spoiler

Dominion War

in DS9

It might be that you find them less interesting because you missed that those weren't the major conflicts in B5. The major conflict was the Vorlon/Shadow philosophical schism, a fantastic retelling of the classic Randolph/Mortimer wager.

Spoiler

you don't have to tag things that happened decades ago

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So what's the general take on Enterprise? It's already streaming on Hulu and the CBS Trek site ahead of Netflix, so I figure more free Trek to watch can't be a bad thing (even if Takei's flying head in a jar blamed it for killing the franchise).

 

[Jack Random]

So what's the general take on Enterprise? It's already streaming on Hulu and the CBS Trek site ahead of Netflix, so I figure more free Trek to watch can't be a bad thing (even if Takei's flying head in a jar blamed it for killing the franchise).

This is not an opinion, between this show's ratings and the failure of two movies back to back, the franchise was killed.

 

[LakeEarth]

Season 4 Enterprise is quality.

 

[Htown]

So what's the general take on Enterprise? It's already streaming on Hulu and the CBS Trek site ahead of Netflix, so I figure more free Trek to watch can't be a bad thing (even if Takei's flying head in a jar blamed it for killing the franchise).

It's very up and down (mostly mediocre) in the first two seasons, and there is a looong stretch of season 2 that is absolutely terrible, but it picks up a lot after that.

I'll make an Essential Enterprise list when I get home from work tonight. (Late.)

 

[SpoonyBard]

So what's the general take on Enterprise? It's already streaming on Hulu and the CBS Trek site ahead of Netflix, so I figure more free Trek to watch can't be a bad thing (even if Takei's flying head in a jar blamed it for killing the franchise).

Season 1 and 2 are okay, there are not really great episodes, but none that are really crappy either. They may be a bit boring if you're not a Trek fan, I don't know... Season 3 is alot more interesting, with a season long story arc. Not the best story arc, but still worth watching. Season 4 is where it get's really good, and the episodes are almost TNG quality.

 

[BattleMonkey]

This is not an opinion, between this show's ratings and the failure of two movies back to back, the franchise was killed.

Voyager didn't help either. While it had strong ratings at the start almost comparable to DS9, it just kept dropping and was pretty pathetic performance wise for it's last half. Really Voyager would have likely been cancelled on any other station, but it was pretty much one of the highest rated shows on UPN at the time (lol), which is not an achievement.

 

[funkystudent]

Only discovered a few weeks ago that the lady who played Troi mother was was also the voice of the computer AND Roddenberry's wife.


I know you all probably know it already but my mind was blown.

I hated episodes with her in them but it all makes sense now.

 

[grumpy]

Only discovered a few weeks ago that the lady who played Troi mother was was also the voice of the computer AND Roddenberry's wife.

She was also Nurse Chapel

 

[GameplayWhore]

Season 4 Enterprise is quality.

Agreed. For season 4, they got a new exec to helm the show, then they stoleused stories from well written novels, made attempts to plug up plot issues from previous seasons (like why the Vulcans were such big angry jerks) and made a concerted effort to shape the history into something which we could vaguely construe as a reasonable lead-in to the rest of the Trek universe.

The characters felt a bit more like people, a lot of the sameyness from prior seasons vanished .... they even were nice enough to quickly resolve long-standing plot arcs that were rather bleh in the first place but needed closure to avoid being a total catastrophe.

Heck, I didn't even mind that awkward framing of the final episode which pissed off so many people.

Only discovered a few weeks ago that the lady who played Troi mother was was also the voice of the computer AND Roddenberry's wife.

She was also Nurse Chapel

And she outranked Mr. Spock in the very first Trek pilot.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

they stoleused stories from well written novels

Which ones?

 

[King of the Potato People]

I'm not a big fan of Star Trek generally, I have a preference for Battlestar Galactica with its dark arc-based structure. Still I was glued into watching every episode of DS9, the dominion war was compelling. The cast were great, Sisko was a bad ass, Dukat was an awesomely unpredictable villain, Odo was both sympathetic as well as tough and of course the charismatic, dark Garak.

Favorite quote (From the Vulcan Baseball episode): Worf "Find him and kill him!"

 

[funkystudent]

She was also Nurse Chapel

That as well but I was never a big TOS fan.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Which ones?

Hmmm. I may be mistaken. I was under the impression that The Forge, at least, was an adaptation of a novel called Vulcan's Forge.

I recall hearing about it back then, but looking at the descriptions now, it seems pretty different. Let me amend what I said earlier to something totally different:

"they hired actual SF authors to write some episodes"

There. That works. In fact, it works for "The Forge", since the authors are Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, SF authors who I recall had written a bunch of Trek novels.

 

[Instigator]

Season 4 Enterprise is quality.

I got your quality right there:

Or not.

 

[tuffy]

I'm not a big fan of Star Trek generally, I have a preference for Battlestar Galactica with its dark arc-based structure. Still I was glued into watching every episode of DS9, the dominion war was compelling.

They both share Ron Moore as executive producer, so it's only natural.

I just finished rewatching all of DS9 a couple months back, actually. I hadn't seen any of it since it first aired, so I feared it wouldn't live up to the fond memories I had of it. But except for a few clunkers per season (and a bit of Vic overload toward the end), it really does hold up very well over time. It's also an interesting snapshot of Trek history, with TNG series crossovers, TNG movie crossovers, Voyager crossovers and all sorts of little bits of lore popping up in episodes that I'd completely forgotten about. Hopefully if TNG gets the HD remastering treatment, DS9 won't be too far behind.

 

[Measley]

To this day, I felt that Paramount going with Enterprise over a Star Trek series that dealt with Captain Sulu and the Excelsior was one of the biggest blunders ever.

 

[antonz]

To this day, I felt that Paramount going with Enterprise over a Star Trek series that dealt with Captain Sulu and the Excelsior was one of the biggest blunders ever.

Nah Its just dangerous to go back and do a series set before all the others when modern technology has advanced. To stay true to the series enterprise should have been designed far more low tech even if the realities of Earth are more advanced than that.

Enterprise should have been more hokey instead of trying to rewrite it all. Star Trek fans are a very specific group and have very specific expectations. To have the NX seemingly look more advanced etc than the NCC was a big issue with fans.

Scifi Fans are a terrible group of people honestly. They will make up their mind fast and doom series if a small set of things arent perfect

 

[The Librarian]

So what's the general take on Enterprise? It's already streaming on Hulu and the CBS Trek site ahead of Netflix, so I figure more free Trek to watch can't be a bad thing (even if Takei's flying head in a jar blamed it for killing the franchise).

I've been meaning to re-watch Enterprise. I want to form a more concrete opinion on it, but I remember seasons three and four being pretty good for the most part (aside from Space Nazis).

 

[BattleMonkey]

To this day, I felt that Paramount going with Enterprise over a Star Trek series that dealt with Captain Sulu and the Excelsior was one of the biggest blunders ever.

Enterprise was a great concept but execution was weak.

 

[Escape Goat]

Enterprise was a great concept but execution was weak.

For real. They had a chance to really construct the Federation and Starfleet. Instead we got Voyager in the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Slayven]

After reading the DTI novel, I would fully back a tv series based on them.

 

[maharg]

Dax01: you take things way too personally. I'm a curmudgeon, it's not reserved for you.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Why did Enterprise has a vocal theme song? It's just really odd. Didn't mind the first ep so far though, but man I feel like the song should be a Public Access July 4th Music Video.

 

[DrForester]

Why did Enterprise has a vocal theme song? It's just really odd. Didn't mind the first ep so far though, but man I feel like the song should be a Public Access July 4th Music Video.

it wasn't even a song made for the show. It was made for the Robin Williams film Patch Adams.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

it wasn't even a song made for the show. It was made for the Robin Williams film Patch Adams.

Holy shit, that's somehow even fucking worst. Why didn't they just do it like the Turks and steal the Firefly theme since it seems like that is what they wanted. Still I'm shocked this is really the best they could get, it's just so awful!

 

[user_nat]

I enjoyed the majority of Enterprise. Never had a problem with the intro music either. It's certainly not the kind of music I would listen to, but it fit well enough.

Intro to the alternative universe eps = the best.

 

[Htown]

Okay, so, like I said: Enterprise Essentials.

It's later than I thought, so let's just talk about Season 1. These are the ones you need to see if you're going to watch Enterprise, either because they are good or important later or HOPEFULLY both.

Broken Bow - first episode.
The Andorian Incident - extremely important to all the later Vulcan and Andorian episodes
Cold Front - extremely important to the ongoing Temporal Cold War arc, which is a huge part of the show for better and/or for worse
Dear Doctor - Probably the most argued about episode of the show, attempts to lay a bit of foundation for the Prime Directive
Shuttlepod One - a really good, simple episode
Shockwave - maybe the best season finale/cliffhanger in the whole show.

Not a lot of "essential" episodes for a season, I know. But most of this first year is basically just standard Trek space adventure stuff. It's not bad (mostly), just sort of... okay, I guess. I will say that I really do like a lot of the beginning of the season, since this is clearly a crew unused to exploring space, and they get excited about every little thing because it's their first... something. Also they make a lot of mistakes because nobody in Starfleet has really done this stuff before. Also there are some episodes I personally like that I've left off of here.

That said, those are probably the ones you want to watch if you absolutely positively want to get through Enterprise as quickly as humanly possible.

ALTERNATIVELY, you can just watch everything, and it'll be alright, while avoiding the following episodes which may possibly cause you actual physical harm:

DO NOT WATCH LIST
Unexpected - Trip gets pregnant. No. Really.
Terra Nova - SHALE! IT'S ALL SHALE!
Rogue Planet - just lame
Acquisition - a terrible Ferengi episode. And no, they're not supposed to know about the Ferengi yet.
Oasis - pointless

Watching everything with the exceptions above is probably what I would do, but like I said, the 100% essential stuff is up there.

 

[user_nat]

I don't think the episodes on your do not watch list are all that bad. They may be among the worse in the show, but none are shockingly bad.

Also, it's not like screwing with the Ferengi story matters. DS9 had already completely changed them.

 

[Htown]

They're bad. Not as bad as some of the absolute HOOOORRSESHIT that we got in that fucking terrible stretch in Season 2 before the show finally shaped up, but they are not good.

 

[Walshicus]

Dear Doctor - Probably the most argued about episode of the show, attempts to lay a bit of foundation for the Prime Directive

I agree that there are some pretty good Enterprise episodes and some rubbish ones... but Dear Doctor is perhaps the single worst Star Trek episode ever made. I think it's even worse than the Warp-10-slug episode of Voyager.

Essentially through a faulty understanding of evolution, Doctor Phlox decides that it's okay to let a space-faring species die [by not giving them a cure] because he has a feeling that their deaths would allow a less intelligent and well cared for co-habiting species to flourish.

I know some people might want to watch because it *is* so controversial, but I'd only suggest doing so if you really want to hate Phlox's character and the episode writer.

 

[DrForester]

I agree that there are some pretty good Enterprise episodes and some rubbish ones... but Dear Doctor is perhaps the single worst Star Trek episode ever made. I think it's even worse than the Warp-10-slug episode of Voyager.

Essentially through a faulty understanding of evolution, Doctor Phlox decides that it's okay to let a space-faring species die [by not giving them a cure] because he has a feeling that their deaths would allow a less intelligent and well cared for co-habiting species to flourish.

I know some people might want to watch because it *is* so controversial, but I'd only suggest doing so if you really want to hate Phlox's character and the episode writer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

 

[The Librarian]

Dax01: you take things way too personally. I'm a curmudgeon, it's not reserved for you.

I dunno what a curmudgeon is, but whatever you say!

Anyway, for all you Garak fans, here's an interview with Andrew J. Robinson.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Thanks for the recs guys!

Had a chance to watch Best of Both Worlds (man how many Trek Episodes have titles that could double for porn?), great ep even though the whole Rike/Sable(?) conflict is really telegraphed and OTT.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Just finished Season 1 of TNG. Looking forward to seeing the series' gradual improvement from this point on.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Just finished Season 1 of TNG. Looking forward to seeing the series' gradual improvement from this point on.

Ignore the deal with it for this purpose.

He looks like Charles B. Pierce in the Town That Dreaded Sundown (which is a great movie BTW) without that beard!

 

[Fox Mulder]

it wasn't even a song made for the show. It was made for the Robin Williams film Patch Adams.

haha...didn't know that.

I've never even seen a single episode of Enterprise, but had seen the laughable intro song. I might get around to watching Enterprise, but I'm early into a dual TOS/Voyager run through. I've already gone through TNG and DS9 recently.

 

[Shouta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

You could make a case for either really. I'd go with Dear Doctor being worse than the Warp 10 episode personally though. That Voyager ep is stupid but Dear Doctor is stupid and morally insulting.