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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)

Zalusithix

Member
Got to thinking about VR and strategy games this morning. It's a genre that could be actually work rather well in VR. Little dioramas of war playing out in front of you. That in and of itself isn't anything of a new idea. Where I went a bit off the wall is thinking about conceptually making it more of an influenced strategy rather than a wholly directed affair.

Basically you'd be a god instead of a general or something. You wouldn't choose what exactly happened at every moment in the world. You're not omnipotent. The humans/creatures would do what they wanted the vast majority of the time in real time. You could, however, influence/override their actions to a certain extent. Select a group on the move and trace out a virtual path they should follow through the world. Possibly influence what targets they choose. No fine grained control - the units have a will of their own. It's more of an ability to set the general stage.

Now, to compensate for that, and playing more to the strengths of VR - you could influence the world itself directly. Using tracked controllers you'd be able to deform and sculpt the land. Erect/flatten mountains. Redirect rivers. Lob lightning bolts, Wave into existence massive gales. Obviously the possible actions would have to be constrained in some way (card mechanics/timers/whatever).

Finally for more fine tuned control you have channelers. There are no hero units in this concept, but these would be the closest thing to them. By themselves these units would be no different from normal. Their strength and uniqueness comes from the ability for you to possess. Upon possession you'd go into first person 1:1 action where the channeler is now temporarily a divine conduit of your will. Issue orders from first person, teleport around the battle field performing offensive or defensive wonders. They're still mortal though, so a blade through them will kill them just as surely as it would anybody else.

All of this could technically be done in a traditional game, but VR would give it a very different feel and finesse. Being able to see the units on the battlefield like little toys come to life. Being able to take your hand and physically pummel a mountain down or cut a crevice into the ground as easily as if you were playing in a real sandbox. Being able to jump into the fray as a battle unfolds around you in 1:1 scale and mix it up as a magical Jedi of sorts. Combined together, they should give a fairly good feel for being a real god overseeing a battle of your followers.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud.
 
A couple of days ago I emailed HTC to figure out what wave of shipments in. Yesterday, I got an email reply from them saying that my order was cancelled. I sent off a quick email reply back to them to tell them I didn't want to cancel and just wanted to know what wave of shipments my order was in, it was within the first hour I believe. So, I got an email today saying that they don't know why my order was trying to be cancelled and they verified it was still valid, yet they never answered my first question about when my Vive is going to ship. How are you guys getting the knowledge of what wave of shipments you are in?
 
John Carmark just posted about ATW (Asyncronous Time Warp) which will be coming with SDK 1.3

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/asynchronous-timewarp-on-oculus-rift/

My favorite part:

Benefits
The user experiences much smoother virtual reality with ATW. Early measurements of Rift launch titles running without ATW showed apps missing ~5% of their frames. ATW is able to fill in for the majority of these misses, resulting in judder reduction of 20-100x. This functionality comes at no performance cost to the application and requires no code changes. And, this is only the beginning — we are working with partners to improve the effectiveness of ATW going forward.
 
A couple of days ago I emailed HTC to figure out what wave of shipments in. Yesterday, I got an email reply from them saying that my order was cancelled. I sent off a quick email reply back to them to tell them I didn't want to cancel and just wanted to know what wave of shipments my order was in, it was within the first hour I believe. So, I got an email today saying that they don't know why my order was trying to be cancelled and they verified it was still valid, yet they never answered my first question about when my Vive is going to ship. How are you guys getting the knowledge of what wave of shipments you are in?

This part of the email I got:

hjsrtjjjjjjlxuur.png
 

cakefoo

Member
A couple of days ago I emailed HTC to figure out what wave of shipments in. Yesterday, I got an email reply from them saying that my order was cancelled. I sent off a quick email reply back to them to tell them I didn't want to cancel and just wanted to know what wave of shipments my order was in, it was within the first hour I believe. So, I got an email today saying that they don't know why my order was trying to be cancelled and they verified it was still valid, yet they never answered my first question about when my Vive is going to ship. How are you guys getting the knowledge of what wave of shipments you are in?
just call them, you'll get an answer in seconds, not days.
 

viveks86

Member
Got to thinking about VR and strategy games this morning. It's a genre that could be actually work rather well in VR. Little dioramas of war playing out in front of you. That in and of itself isn't anything of a new idea. Where I went a bit off the wall is thinking about conceptually making it more of an influenced strategy rather than a wholly directed affair.

Basically you'd be a god instead of a general or something. You wouldn't choose what exactly happened at every moment in the world. You're not omnipotent. The humans/creatures would do what they wanted the vast majority of the time in real time. You could, however, influence/override their actions to a certain extent. Select a group on the move and trace out a virtual path they should follow through the world. Possibly influence what targets they choose. No fine grained control - the units have a will of their own. It's more of an ability to set the general stage.

Now, to compensate for that, and playing more to the strengths of VR - you could influence the world itself directly. Using tracked controllers you'd be able to deform and sculpt the land. Erect/flatten mountains. Redirect rivers. Lob lightning bolts, Wave into existence massive gales. Obviously the possible actions would have to be constrained in some way (card mechanics/timers/whatever).

Finally for more fine tuned control you have channelers. There are no hero units in this concept, but these would be the closest thing to them. By themselves these units would be no different from normal. Their strength and uniqueness comes from the ability for you to possess. Upon possession you'd go into first person 1:1 action where the channeler is now temporarily a divine conduit of your will. Issue orders from first person, teleport around the battle field performing offensive or defensive wonders. They're still mortal though, so a blade through them will kill them just as surely as it would anybody else.

All of this could technically be done in a traditional game, but VR would give it a very different feel and finesse. Being able to see the units on the battlefield like little toys come to life. Being able to take your hand and physically pummel a mountain down or cut a crevice into the ground as easily as if you were playing in a real sandbox. Being able to jump into the fray as a battle unfolds around you in 1:1 scale and mix it up as a magical Jedi of sorts. Combined together, they should give a fairly good feel for being a real god overseeing a battle of your followers.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud.

Yeah I had a very similar image in my head while talking about touchpad configurability for fine grained control. There's a lot of potential for VR for the genre, if done right. Heck, I might finally start playing strategy games! :D
 
Wasnt there a VR space strategy game where you are a commander on the bridge of a spaceship and have the map somewhere on the bridge, can plan your attacks etc. and if you look outside of the space ship can see the whole battle taking place?
 

Bsigg12

Member
Looks like accidents happen even with chaperone enabled, I guess it's better to add ~1m safety margin to the play area if you have any fragile objects near :p

This is why the room I'm planning on using my Vive doesn't have anything more than a 27 inch monitor in it.
 

viveks86

Member
Looks like accidents happen even with chaperone enabled, I guess it's better to add ~1m safety margin to the play area if you have any fragile objects near :p

For sure. Also, is the chaperone system available by default on all games or should the dev support it? I remember seeing a lot of demo videos where the chaperone system never comes up even though they are right next to the wall.
 
Looks like accidents happen even with chaperone enabled, I guess it's better to add ~1m safety margin to the play area if you have any fragile objects near :p

All the people that broke TV's with Wiimotes did not use the wrist straps.

Considering the countless videos that I have seen for the Vive in which NO ONE used the included straps, I'm not surprised.
 

artsi

Member
All the people that broke TV's with Wiimotes did not use the wrist straps.

Considering the countless videos that I have seen for the Vive in which NO ONE used the included straps, I'm not surprised.

He didn't throw the controller though, just swinged it while being too near to the TV.

But yeah, I think there will be many "throwing a grenade" incidents coming, lol.
 

UnrealEck

Member
Well thanks Gaf, you've cost me my marriage probably as well as £2500!

Going to buy a £1200 I7 with GTX980ti and both Oculus and Vive now.

Sure I've convinced myself its because I'm using them to set up a business as a VR suite but we all know Im going to be using the damned thing more than anyone else!

I'm sure there'll be a lot of 'but honey, it's for business' comments coming out of married people's mouths.
 

Cartman86

Banned
Yeah it sounds really good. I wish we knew how other headsets perform on this aspect for comparison's sake. Seems like they are all using their own methods?

It seems like Valve suggests against timewarp for some reason. I'm sure someone here can explain the downside of timewarp?

All the people that broke TV's with Wiimotes did not use the wrist straps.

Considering the countless videos that I have seen for the Vive in which NO ONE used the included straps, I'm not surprised.

I bet it wasn't even throwing the remote. They probably just drew their bounds right up to the TV and didn't think about how you won't be able to stop swinging hands in time when you see chaperon.
 

Bsigg12

Member
All the people that broke TV's with Wiimotes did not use the wrist straps.

Considering the countless videos that I have seen for the Vive in which NO ONE used the included straps, I'm not surprised.

You would need to bring the chaperone system in a few feet because I believe it is tracking where your head is, not your arms so that's why he did hit it. He didn't throw the controller either, just moving around in the virtual space with the idea that the chaperone system would warn him.

It seems like Valve suggests against timewarp for some reason. I'm sure someone here can explain the downside of timewarp?

With a computer, you have to get to a very low level within the hardware to allow ATW to be implemented. That's why we see the PS4 and GearVR using it because they are at a very low level. This is something Oculus has been working with Nvidia, AMD and Microsoft on since 2014 I believe. Without the proper driver changes and GPU scheduling changes it would never work correctly.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
You would need to bring the chaperone system in a few feet because I believe it is tracking where your head is, not your arms so that's why he did hit it. He didn't throw the controller either, just moving around in the virtual space with the idea that the chaperone system would warn him.

it warns you if the hands approach the edges too. But if you're moving rapidly you could easily be through the chaperone before being able to see and react to it, especially if you have no buffer.
 

viveks86

Member
With a computer, you have to get to a very low level within the hardware to allow ATW to be implemented. That's why we see the PS4 and GearVR using it because they are at a very low level. This is something Oculus has been working with Nvidia, AMD and Microsoft on since 2014 I believe. Without the proper driver changes and GPU scheduling changes it would never work correctly.

Oh so Steam VR doesn't do ATW? Hmmmm

It seems like Valve suggests against timewarp for some reason. I'm sure someone here can explain the downside of timewarp?

I can't imagine any downside, if implemented correctly. What Oculus and PSVR are doing seem like the way to go. Having it can cause no harm and can only help when framerates go awry for a multitude of reasons beyond the dev's control, which is why both are enabling it by default.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Got to thinking about VR and strategy games this morning. It's a genre that could be actually work rather well in VR. Little dioramas of war playing out in front of you. That in and of itself isn't anything of a new idea. Where I went a bit off the wall is thinking about conceptually making it more of an influenced strategy rather than a wholly directed affair.

Basically you'd be a god instead of a general or something. You wouldn't choose what exactly happened at every moment in the world. You're not omnipotent. The humans/creatures would do what they wanted the vast majority of the time in real time. You could, however, influence/override their actions to a certain extent. Select a group on the move and trace out a virtual path they should follow through the world. Possibly influence what targets they choose. No fine grained control - the units have a will of their own. It's more of an ability to set the general stage.

Now, to compensate for that, and playing more to the strengths of VR - you could influence the world itself directly. Using tracked controllers you'd be able to deform and sculpt the land. Erect/flatten mountains. Redirect rivers. Lob lightning bolts, Wave into existence massive gales. Obviously the possible actions would have to be constrained in some way (card mechanics/timers/whatever).

Finally for more fine tuned control you have channelers. There are no hero units in this concept, but these would be the closest thing to them. By themselves these units would be no different from normal. Their strength and uniqueness comes from the ability for you to possess. Upon possession you'd go into first person 1:1 action where the channeler is now temporarily a divine conduit of your will. Issue orders from first person, teleport around the battle field performing offensive or defensive wonders. They're still mortal though, so a blade through them will kill them just as surely as it would anybody else.

All of this could technically be done in a traditional game, but VR would give it a very different feel and finesse. Being able to see the units on the battlefield like little toys come to life. Being able to take your hand and physically pummel a mountain down or cut a crevice into the ground as easily as if you were playing in a real sandbox. Being able to jump into the fray as a battle unfolds around you in 1:1 scale and mix it up as a magical Jedi of sorts. Combined together, they should give a fairly good feel for being a real god overseeing a battle of your followers.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud.

Yup, a tabletop presentation for something like Total War: Warhammer would be great.

God games should make a big comeback I think (and hope). A room scale Black+White spiritual successor would be fantastic.

My idea for a hobby project is a bit similar to what you're talking about - making an AI-driven artificial life sandbox where different life forms independently evolve, work the landscape, build cities and eventually form civilizations and clash with tons of units on the field. All playing out in a grid-based system like Final Fantasy Tactics, so no realtime first-person VR avatarhood for me.

The player could be as hands-off or hands-on as they want. The core concept is for everything to be deterministic and repeatable (all pseudorandom elements based on sim tick count and other internal elements) so the player could roll back and make changes earlier in the timeline to see how the world plays out differently. Makes it easy to save+share replays too. The player could work up to meteor-dropping powers eventually, but early influences could be quite subtle.

Same issue where it isn't really VR-specific, but it would still be nice for the sense of scale and potentially have some user interface benefits with the Lighthouse controllers.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Looks like accidents happen even with chaperone enabled, I guess it's better to add ~1m safety margin to the play area if you have any fragile objects near :p

Accidents will happen even with a meter margin. Humans can cover the distances of normal room scale quite quickly. If they're careless enough, they'll pass through the chaperone bounds before they can react. It'll be the exception rather than the rule, but it will happen. Never underestimate people's ability to mess things up. ;)
 

Bsigg12

Member
Oh so Steam VR doesn't do ATW? Hmmmm



I can't imagine any downside, if implemented correctly. What Oculus and PSVR are doing seem like the way to go. Having it can cause no harm and can only help when framerates go awry for a multitude of reasons beyond the dev's control.

From my understanding, OpenVR doesn't have it in the SDK, and Oculus is just now getting it into the Oculus SDK.
 

Cartman86

Banned
Accidents will happen even with a meter margin. Humans can cover the distances of normal room scale quite quickly. If they're careless enough, they'll pass through the chaperone bounds before they can react. It'll be the exception rather than the rule, but it will happen. Never underestimate people's ability to mess things up. ;)

Yeah I've already got a mental checklists of things to tell people when they come over to try it. I'll be the teacher yelling at the kids to stop having fun.
 

viveks86

Member
From my understanding, OpenVR doesn't have it in the SDK, and Oculus is just now getting it into the Oculus SDK.

Hmmm... it's pretty neat that it is completely transparent to the devs and just works out of the box. SMS confirmed that pCARS will run with ATW at launch.

Yeah I've already got a mental checklists of things to tell people when they come over to try it. I'll be the teacher yelling at the kids to stop having fun.

Same here.

I'm the only guy in my circle who would be setting up VR and no one else has a clue. It's going to be like herding cattle.

My biggest worry is making someone nauseous. I know a couple of them who would refuse to even come to amusement parks.

What if they throw up?! Yikes...
 

rje

Member
This seems like an interesting concept for a locomotion system. Some nice touches to help with reducing cable tangle, which I haven't seen a lot of folks put much thought into. Might have to try and mock up a similar system to see how it feels - my concern would be even with the chaperone bounds as a frame of reference and blurring it'd still feel weird to freeze the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW6nlLV88Zk
 

Monger

Member
Hmmm... it's pretty neat that it is completely transparent to the devs and just works out of the box. SMS confirmed that pCARS will run with ATW at launch.



Same here.

I'm the only guy in my circle who would be setting up VR and no one else has a clue. It's going to be like herding cattle.

My biggest worry is making someone nauseous. I know a couple of them who would refuse to even come to amusement parks.

What if they throw up?! Yikes...

Just make sure to start them with Adr1ft so they can get used to VR properly.

When I get sick I can usually tell it's coming and I quit well before I've ever thrown up. Mainly because the idea of playing more seems dreadful. And then I just feel awful for the next 4 hours.

Ginger tea helps though. Keep some fresh ginger root around and boil it in water. Add cinnamon sticks, nutmeg or brown sugar for flavor.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Yup, a tabletop presentation for something like Total War: Warhammer would be great.

God games should make a big comeback I think (and hope). A room scale Black+White spiritual successor would be fantastic.

My idea for a hobby project is a bit similar to what you're talking about - making an AI-driven artificial life sandbox where different life forms independently evolve, work the landscape, build cities and eventually form civilizations and clash with tons of units on the field. All playing out in a grid-based system like Final Fantasy Tactics, so no realtime first-person VR avatarhood for me.

The player could be as hands-off or hands-on as they want. The core concept is for everything to be deterministic and repeatable (all pseudorandom elements based on sim tick count and other internal elements) so the player could roll back and make changes earlier in the timeline to see how the world plays out differently. Makes it easy to save+share replays too. The player could work up to meteor-dropping powers eventually, but early influences could be quite subtle.

Same issue where it isn't really VR-specific, but it would still be nice for the sense of scale and potentially have some user interface benefits with the Lighthouse controllers.

I see virtual tabletop games eventually becoming a mainstay of seated VR. Traditional monitors could never provide the right feel for that sort of thing. Meanwhile VR gets you to the right perspective/feel and also allows the table to come to life.

That perspective shift and feeling of presence is going to be a powerful tool that allows us to revisit older game concepts that have fallen out of style or never quite worked in the first place. We've been refining and doubling down on experiences that work well via monitor play and normal input methods over the past decades while discarding everything else. So as much as we should be looking forward for new things to do in VR, we should be looking backwards and seeing how the past can be redone. The current, in comparison, just doesn't have the same possibilities. It's been refined too far to easily adapt.
 

Cartman86

Banned
Just make sure to start them with Adr1ft so they can get used to VR properly.

When I get sick I can usually tell it's coming and I quit well before I've ever thrown up. Mainly because the idea of playing more seems dreadful. And then I just feel awful for the next 4 hours.

Ginger tea helps though. Keep some fresh ginger root around and boil it in water. Add cinnamon sticks, nutmeg or brown sugar for flavor.

You might be joking, but don't do this people. Don't put anyone in anything that will make them sick the first few times they try VR. They will never want to try it again. Particularly non-gamers.
 

Monger

Member
You might be joking, but don't do this people. Don't put anyone in anything that will make them sick the first few times they try VR. They will never want to try it again. Particularly non-gamers.

Should've added a smiley I guess. I think he has a Vive on the way as well, but anything without a gamepad for locomotion would be the way to go.
 

viveks86

Member
Should've added a smiley I guess. I think he has a Vive on the way as well, but anything without a gamepad for locomotion would be the way to go.

Haha. Figured :)

Both are on the way. But it seems likely that the vive will arrive sooner. Will probably have to start with something like the blu or the lab... I was originally thinking everest could blow their mind, but then realized it's too intense. And seems like it may not even make it by launch.
 

UnrealEck

Member
I think Palmer said one of the reasons Valve isn't letting Vive work on Oculus' SDK/Store is because they don't use ATW (or vice versa in that Oculus wants ATW headsets). I can't remember exactly what he says but it's during a comment about Vive on Oculus store and he mentions ATW.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
what kind of ginger is good in case people have issues? Would be good to get some in the house when I'm demoing to people.
 

Soi-Fong

Member
Oh so Steam VR doesn't do ATW? Hmmmm



I can't imagine any downside, if implemented correctly. What Oculus and PSVR are doing seem like the way to go. Having it can cause no harm and can only help when framerates go awry for a multitude of reasons beyond the dev's control, which is why both are enabling it by default.

By the very way SteamVR renders, ATW isn't really viable for them. SteamVR ONLY renders the view that you see unlike Oculus which renders out past the visual bounds you see.
 

Lemonte

Member
It seems like Valve suggests against timewarp for some reason. I'm sure someone here can explain the downside of timewarp?

I thought SteamVR doesn't have timewarp because how screens are rendered. They cut out everything outside view while saving 15% or so pixels. So they can't warp because you would get black bars flickering in the picture if you move head quickly.
 

viveks86

Member
By the very way SteamVR renders, ATW isn't really viable for them. SteamVR ONLY renders the view that you see unlike Oculus which renders out past the visual bounds you see.

But even in the rift, don't they end up seeing a bit of black if the movement is fast enough? I guess there'd be even more black with OpenVR...
 

Zalusithix

Member
Regarding reprojection and OpenVR, here's the relevant parts from the last GDC.
Road to VR's liveblog of Alex's talk said:
"Then there's async reprojection."
"GPU gets interrupted and if the currently rendered frame is not done, it can reproject the last rendered frames. This sounds like the silver bullet -- the ideal safety system. But it requires preemption granularity on the GPU that's good or better than current GPUs."
"There's no great solution yet until GPUs can be pre-empted better."
"So we have something called an Interleaved Reprojection Hint"
"This gives you about 18ms to render instead of 11ms. It's a great safety measure."
"It's a safety net that the runtime can tap into and force it on when needed. It's a good tradeoff I think, and I agree what Oculus' Michael Antonov said last year."
Accompanying slide:
szqdNI7.png
 

Qassim

Member
Just managed to sell an iMac (2011, 27" top spec) and a Thunderbolt display for £1080. I hadn't really used them in the past year, but the motivation to sell them came from VR. I wanted to be able to not feel terrible about buying both the Rift and Vive.. and I needed more room for room scale. So I got rid of the desk and computer + screen on it.

All in all, this means all I had to spend was about £190 to get the Vive + Rift, and now I'll satisfy the minimum requirements for room scale VR with the Vive.

#hype
 
I just came into a little extra money, so I can now justify getting Chronos, Adr1ft and Pinball FX2 VR, which is a wonderful turn of events, since I wasn't even sure I'd have the $15 for Pinball FX.

Maybe I'll be able to afford another title, or maybe I'll try to hold onto the rest for The Climb next month.
 

UnrealEck

Member
Just managed to sell an iMac (2011, 27" top spec) and a Thunderbolt display for £1080. I hadn't really used them in the past year, but the motivation to sell them came from VR. I wanted to be able to not feel terrible about buying both the Rift and Vive.. and I needed more room for room scale. So I got rid of the desk and computer + screen on it.

All in all, this means all I had to spend was about £190 to get the Vive + Rift, and now I'll satisfy the minimum requirements for room scale VR with the Vive.

#hype

Crazy what people are willing to pay for Apple stuff.

Where did you order your Vive?
 

Monger

Member
what kind of ginger is good in case people have issues? Would be good to get some in the house when I'm demoing to people.

Anything with real Ginger and not just artificial Ginger flavoring. They sell capsules, candies, liquids, candied ginger pieces, Ginger ale, Ginger snap cookies or you can just buy ginger root at the store for dirt cheap and make tea as suggested above. Ginger root will hold for a month in the fridge.

My phone really wants to capitalize Ginger.
 
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