That's the point! He's so innocent and has no clue what danger he's actually in.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Last Guardian |OT| In my memories, the monster always has kind eyes
- Thread starter Agram
- Start date
DieNgamers
Member
The boy is pure bad-ass!!!
On another note...
I need to remind myself that this game isn't my mommy.
I have developed very strong opinions being in my second playthrough right now. I respect your opinions, I do. Here's mine.
Patience and observation are the key to playing TLG right. Yes, you can play wrong, there I said it. Call me stupid. The consequence is being stuck. I love the ballsy nature of it all but I see why so many are overwhelmed by that. Ueda is fucking uncompromising as a director and designer.
Unless everyone has fundamentally different copies of the game it's not broken AI. It's you.
I give you the stubborn camera and framerate. I won't say anything against anybody who can't get into it because of that even though that's a shame. That said I haven't played a more beautiful looking game this year. The only thing that comes close would be Gravity Rush which happens to be my most anticipated game of 2017.
On another note...
I need to remind myself that this game isn't my mommy.
I have developed very strong opinions being in my second playthrough right now. I respect your opinions, I do. Here's mine.
Patience and observation are the key to playing TLG right. Yes, you can play wrong, there I said it. Call me stupid. The consequence is being stuck. I love the ballsy nature of it all but I see why so many are overwhelmed by that. Ueda is fucking uncompromising as a director and designer.
Unless everyone has fundamentally different copies of the game it's not broken AI. It's you.
I give you the stubborn camera and framerate. I won't say anything against anybody who can't get into it because of that even though that's a shame. That said I haven't played a more beautiful looking game this year. The only thing that comes close would be Gravity Rush which happens to be my most anticipated game of 2017.
Maybe i'm crazy, but would this game work as a point and click adventure? I can just imagine it erasing so many of the issues people have with the camera and controls. It would still look exactly the same, you just point to the specific spot you want Trico and the boy to move to.
TimeEffect
Member
He's stone cold too
Wakes up in the middle of nowhere and escapes fhe cave and he's like "lol, k bye trico, i gotta go home"
Maybe like Until Dawn? Less people would get stuck but it would be a worse game. I like it how it is.
Perhaps an easy/story mode.
DieNgamers
Member
I see where you're coming from. I think the bond between the two would lose its impact without the struggle Trico and the boy have to go through, though. Just clicking things and achieving immediate success would take away the essence of the story in my opinion. Trust has to be gained over the course of the journey, that means failing is integral to the player's relationship with the character(s).
I'm thinking more like 90's point and click. A separate mode would be good, maybe it unlocks after you complete it once.
That's true, although i'm only really thinking in terms of navigation, Trico could still ignore you or do something wrong. It's just something that occurred to me while I was trying to walk across beams and ended up flat on my face. How the boy didn't die is a mystery. He spends most of his time limping.
Its odd how some can see tricos lack of listening and slow(broken) ai as a plot device, whereas i see it as a broken and annoying game mechanic
It doesnt help build a bond with trico as a character. All it does it pull me out of the experience seeing what looks like an AI struggling to deal with simple commands. Even if they are intentional, it straight up just makes me hate trico for being useless. You cant jump onto a simple pillar when its literally the only place we can go? You need me to tell you that ?
Help me understand gaf.
I get that at the start of the game he would be hesistant to commands like a real animal, but hes so inconsistent. He will listen to commands immediately when life is on the line, but 10 hours into the game he still struggles with the 'get on hind legs' command. I just dont get it
The horse in shadow of the collossus had realistic reactions to certain events, but never impeded progress and would still give me control.
It doesnt help build a bond with trico as a character. All it does it pull me out of the experience seeing what looks like an AI struggling to deal with simple commands. Even if they are intentional, it straight up just makes me hate trico for being useless. You cant jump onto a simple pillar when its literally the only place we can go? You need me to tell you that ?
Help me understand gaf.
I get that at the start of the game he would be hesistant to commands like a real animal, but hes so inconsistent. He will listen to commands immediately when life is on the line, but 10 hours into the game he still struggles with the 'get on hind legs' command. I just dont get it
The horse in shadow of the collossus had realistic reactions to certain events, but never impeded progress and would still give me control.
I don't think so. The design is built around you literally interacting with the world either directly or via Trico. Not a good match.
That said I wonder if it shouldn't have an easy mode where Trico animal AI is mostly shut off and he just does what you want right away or is scripted to always move to next point if more than X time goes by,
I don't get the need myself. A few specific instances aside its obvious what you should be doing or where you should be going from environmental design. I guess some though just need pointers or objective markers. No harm giving it to them so long as its in an easy mode in my view.
Really though I think the issue is the game puts the onus on the player to pay attention and treat the world as real and clearly some players are either more used to objective markers and clear directions or more signposted environmental clues.
That said there are a few definite tricky spots with one of mechanics that I can see being a chore for many. I figured them out with some time and watching Trico to see what he does but they're clearly a bit hit/miss moments.
I'm not really having problems either, at least not yet. Trico is pretty good for me, if he doesn't do something i'm normally wrong or just have to wait a minute. There has been a few instances where i'm running around looking for the exit, and finally notice Trico sat looking up at the area I need to get to. So he is actually really helpful.
I've just noticed a fair few people having issues and I wonder if a more direct approach to control and commands would help. Point and click adventures are also built around environmental puzzles and interaction. It's just a thought I had.
SmiteOfHand
Member
If you understand how the command system works Trico always responds in a reasonable amount of time. If you don't, then it seems like black magic that is clunky. The realism is that if you ever trained a pet then you understand they are not a remote control car. You give a command and sometimes they do it immediately, sometimes they miss what you requested. Trico is a fairly video game version of that because training a pet can be infinitely more frustrating if you want immediate results.
I've played through the game 4 times. It isn't broken. You give a command, Trico will give an acknowledged response and do what you requested though may trot around for a moment to get into position. Or will give a "what?" sort of response that they didn't get it.
R1+X will cancel any command almost immediately to stop a mess up and avoiding having to wait for something to play out. Once you get a feel for it everything works very naturally. It is still a video game though, and there are rare cases where Trico flat gets hung up in a weird animation bug. But I never ran into it in 4+ playthroughs and only saw it twice in the dozen or so streams I watched.
HueyFreeman
Banned
I agree with this but I think I'd rephrase: there is a certain player type for whom this game will be frustrating and unrewarding. There have been substantial changes in the way the medium works in terms of player guidance since SOTC released - some of it good, eliminating unnecessary frustration and some of it bad, leading the player by the nose and removing agency.
I love TLG's approach to design - the sense of exploration, discovery and experimentation is part of a Team Ico game for me. I never ran into anything longer than a 1 or 2 minute barrier to a puzzle that I knew the solution to in terms of getting Trico to perform, now across 2 playthroughs. But there are some players for whom that will not be the case.
So I agree - it's not the game, the game is not "buggy" or "broken," it really is you. But that's not to say it's because of flaws in the player, it's just that the game doesn't jive with what you enjoy about games. So stop playing.
DieNgamers
Member
100% agree with that. That's why I think the game shows us a bit of our own personality. Not judging anybody because TLG clearly isn't for everyone.
I'm at the final segment, and boy did the past hour of the game completely tarnish the entire experience it preceded (not really but I just need to vent). No issues with controls, with Trico, or anything for that matter, the level design always seemed clear and concise - then it all went to shit as Trico completely stopped responding to me, even upon restarting at checkpoints, continually hopping on and off the same platforms rather then progressing, whether I left him to move himself or whether I issued instructions, and the weakest (read: worst) aspects of the game were highlighted and made to repeat over and over again. I stopped it there so I could start my next session with a fresh mind, but it just seems bizarre to me that they chose to cap it off like this. I remember their being a quote by Ueda where he said the combat isn't supposed to be fun to play or something along those lines, and boy was he not kidding..
Now that the rant is over, I have to say - The Last Guardian is an experience that can't be matched this gen, and I'm so glad I decided to give it a go, frustrations aside.
Now that the rant is over, I have to say - The Last Guardian is an experience that can't be matched this gen, and I'm so glad I decided to give it a go, frustrations aside.
Miniature Kaiju
Member
Just like a training an animal, getting it to understand you is just half the equation. You have to learn how to read it, as well. They always give clues if they understood you or not, if they're ready to do what you asked or not et cetera. It's a two way thing and both parts are important.
Trico is exactly the same thing, it's always giving you clues as to what you have to do to get it to do what you want. If you don't pay attention to this kind of stuff, it can get frustrating really fast, I'm sure.
I loved the game - it's wonderfully designed through and through. I thought the AI was brilliant. Maybe it's part because I'm a dog owner, but it really helps build the emotional connection. The puzzles and level design were fantastic, but it's all of the emotions that this game made me feel throughout and after the journey that makes it one of the most memorable games ever.
Popsickles
Member
I really don't get the whole broken Ai thing, I really think some people don't realise how to actually play the game correctly. A lot of the time whilst on Tricos back he would actually make several jumps and make he way through without any instruction.
I think the stroking and petting does actually strengthen the bond and TRICO becomes more responsive.
On a different note anyone know where to buy figures or statues of TRICO as I can't find any at all and was too tight to buy the CE
I think the stroking and petting does actually strengthen the bond and TRICO becomes more responsive.
On a different note anyone know where to buy figures or statues of TRICO as I can't find any at all and was too tight to buy the CE
There are some stuffed Trico's out there. Not sure exactly sure where though. Someone posted them earlier in the thread.
Popsickles
Member
Looking more for statuettes or something for my man cave, wish they did one like the artwork with TRICO sat on a pillar.
Bronetta
Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Having had some time to reflect on my time with the game Ive come to the following conclusion:
-Trico is the best AI companion in video games. If I was ever stuck a lot of times Trico pointed me in the right direction, listened to all my commands within seconds, and never went the wrong way
-The controls work great. Controls somewhat felt like an improvement over SotC. I liked the physics based movement compared to the autoplatforming present in many modern games.
-Performance was never an issue on Pro. 30 fps locked
-Genius puzzles, the sense of accomplishment when clearing areas is immense.
-Fascinating story. So much said with so few words.
-Stands head to head with Shadow of the Colossus as the all time greats for mr. With more time it may even pull ahead.
-I havent cried or gotten this emotional in a long time. The attachment to Trico is real. Its not just the companionship on the journey but the little details and nuance to Trico.
-Very glad to have had to opportunity to witness this game for myself, especially after that IGN "TLG cancelled" scare
-My personal GotY despite 400+ hours in Overwatch.
-In my memories, the monster always has kind eyes.
-Trico is the best AI companion in video games. If I was ever stuck a lot of times Trico pointed me in the right direction, listened to all my commands within seconds, and never went the wrong way
-The controls work great. Controls somewhat felt like an improvement over SotC. I liked the physics based movement compared to the autoplatforming present in many modern games.
-Performance was never an issue on Pro. 30 fps locked
-Genius puzzles, the sense of accomplishment when clearing areas is immense.
-Fascinating story. So much said with so few words.
-Stands head to head with Shadow of the Colossus as the all time greats for mr. With more time it may even pull ahead.
-I havent cried or gotten this emotional in a long time. The attachment to Trico is real. Its not just the companionship on the journey but the little details and nuance to Trico.
-Very glad to have had to opportunity to witness this game for myself, especially after that IGN "TLG cancelled" scare
-My personal GotY despite 400+ hours in Overwatch.
-In my memories, the monster always has kind eyes.
If anything I would love this game to maybe inspire other developers to really up their game on AI companions and side kicks. Its hard going back to other games and having your AI partner as some emotionless bullet sponge that doesn't react to me except to follow and maybe take cover or something.
Ellie is totally going to have a dog in The Last of Us 2 isn't she?
Ellie is totally going to have a dog in The Last of Us 2 isn't she?
SuperInuit
Member
i still don't understand how people can consider trico's ai to be bad, it literally is artificial intelligence. it's not a robot, it's devised as an animal, and no animal would ever react immediately to anything.
y'all with no patience for trico need to try and get a cat out a tree.
y'all with no patience for trico need to try and get a cat out a tree.
This game really isnt for everyone. I guarantee people who hate the game never pet Trico, laugh when he plays in the water, when he puts his head in a hole or are distressed every time he whines. He's just an unwieldy drone. Which is fine.
SuperInuit
Member
it is totally fine, i'd never expect a team ico game to be for everyone - but i'm a little sad that such an achievement in ai is being called terrible, despite it succeeding in it's design
i suppose it falls to suspension of disbelief?
You cant force sympathy or an emotional bond. If someone just sees Trico as a gutter rat, than thats half the games impact gone. He was painstakingly programmed to be realistic(notice how many animal lovers connected with the game), and I think they suceeded far more than any game AI before.
I think maybe the game should just have a timer where if the player cant complete a puzzle in a certain amount of time, Trico will just do it for them. He actually does sometimes...
Question about this game:
Didn't like Ico. Couldn't get into SoTC. Reading on here and online seems to make it sound that the gameplay is not up to snuff and frustrates players. Performance is butt too on regular PS4.
Should I either:
A) Just redbox it
B) Watch a youtube video of the game from start to finish to see the story and enjoy the soundtrack?
Didn't like Ico. Couldn't get into SoTC. Reading on here and online seems to make it sound that the gameplay is not up to snuff and frustrates players. Performance is butt too on regular PS4.
Should I either:
A) Just redbox it
B) Watch a youtube video of the game from start to finish to see the story and enjoy the soundtrack?
Might as well Redbox it. The game is meant to be played, I dont think a youtube video will give the same experience especially since its a puzzle game at heart and those aha moments are the best part.
MegaSackman
Member
I think watching the whole thing on YouTube would be quite boring since this is not a story told through words and action scenes, while many, are sparse. Besides you might not relate to Toriko if you don't play with him so... there's that too.
I wouldnt bother doing either if you didnt like previous games.
Should you go the Youtube route, I quite enjoyed jacksepticeyes playthrough.
C) Don't worry about it. If you didn't like the other two Ueda games, you won't like this one either. It's maybe the most Ueda-y Ueda game ever.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I'd take that over Joel that's for sure.
She names the dog Joel
Just finished the game. Very special experience. Still haven't gotten over the feels. Those "aha" moments were great and the AI is nothing short of amazing. Definitely GotY for me.
Does this game have multiple endings? I read somewhere something about a "true" ending or something. Don't know if that's true.
I might write down some impressions later. I have to get some stuff off my heart
Does this game have multiple endings? I read somewhere something about a "true" ending or something. Don't know if that's true.
I might write down some impressions later. I have to get some stuff off my heart
Just finished the game. Very special experience. Still haven't gotten over the feels. Those "aha" moments were great and the AI is nothing short of amazing. Definitely GotY for me.
Does this game have multiple endings? I read somewhere something about a "true" ending or something. Don't know if that's true.
I might write down some impressions later. I have to get some stuff off my heart
Just one ending.
People have noted you can hear a baby Trico squeaking and that pressing r1 makes your Tricos horns glow in the post credits scene.
People have noted you can hear a baby Trico squeaking and that pressing r1 makes your Tricos horns glow in the post credits scene.
Robdraggoo
Member
I'm stuck at the end
I'm at the top of the white tower and I have no idea what to do here. I don't know how to get trico up here. I shined the disc at the weird statue and nothing. What do?
You need to be on the green spinning fan. Stop it with the mirror shield and call to Trico until you see him jump up.
Robdraggoo
Member
I started accepting Trico as a real animal. I compared him to my dog in my playthrough. Sometimes he listens sometimes he doesn't. Other times Trico knew exactly what to do without me telling him. I loved picking up on the little clues in Tricos body language because of you can figure those out you know what to tell him next if anything. I connected more with Trico than any other character in a video game ever.
Robdraggoo
Member
And..... goddamn that ending.
The thing with Trico is that I sometimes forgot he's an AI. The reactions seemed so natural and everytime I gave a hint or something he immediately caught it. An exceptional piece of tech honestly.
@Ratrat: Thanks for the answer!
Just beat it. Watching the credits as we speak.
On par with ICO, maybe slightly better, but a class below SotC. I enjoyed my time with it, although Trico for all its majestic and intelligent AI design could be a pain at times. I spent nearly an hour [
trying to get him to dive. It must have been a bug because I restarted the PS4 and he followed my command right away. Also, if you happen to have a PS4 Pro it is absolutely worth it. Performance is considerably better.
On par with ICO, maybe slightly better, but a class below SotC. I enjoyed my time with it, although Trico for all its majestic and intelligent AI design could be a pain at times. I spent nearly an hour [
B]underwater puzzle [/B]
I think i'm stuck fam,
I just had a close encounter with
Also, am I imagining things, or has
I just had a close encounter with
evil Trico and fell through a roof. I'm stuck in a tree and I don't know what to do. Trico tried to jump up but had to go back down. Now he is just reaching his foot out to me. Which is super cute but i'm not getting anywhere,
Also, am I imagining things, or has
Trico's horns grown?
Call him back up and try to reach for his tail. Also, you are not imagining his horns growing.