Support NeoGAF

[#Phonepunk#]

People kept calling The Last Jedi "bold" and "new" and "unexpected". Bullshit. The movie actually ripped off the OT more than TFA. It still blows my mind that people give JJ crap for rehashing OT plotlines but RJ does the same thing and gets away with it.

Already with the anticipation for IX we are seeing the old arguments, "Oh JJ is gonna give fanboys what they love" as if RJ didn't do exactly that. The narrative is that The Last Jedi is disliked not because it's a bad movie but because it was too different. LOL. A load of bollocks, i say. Tbh this was the film's biggest sin for me, it didn't tell me anything new, yet it pretending all this old stuff was mindblowing.

Here's a list of things to prove that. Funny thing is, I had a list a while ago, but the more I thought about it, the more things turn up that were already done in the older films. Feel free to add anything you think of!

- Poe joking over comm link - Han does this more naturally & more realistically in ANH
- Finn in medical suit - Luke in ESB
- Luke tossing the lightsaber - he does this in ROTJ. the last time we see Luke offered a lightsaber was from the Emperor.
- Leia Poppins - Leia has been shown to use the force w skype awareness in ESB/ROTJ. the ice/frozen awakening into (zero g here) force pull was used by Luke in the Wampa cave in ESB.
- Skywalker (Luke/Leia) seriously injured, spends unspecified time knocked out, healed back at base - ESB.
- Jedi Master not wanting to train young Jedi - Yoda not wanting to train Luke in ESB.
- Jedi Master not wanting to fight - Yoda was dismissive in ESB "Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great".
- R2 projecting Leia hologram in Millenium Falcon - ANH RJ "Cheap shot" how to lampshade blatant nostalgia and get away with it.
- Jedi trainee hole in the tree - exactly like ESB.
- Jedi Master lying to pupil - Obi Wan admits this in ROTJ.
- Yoda acting goofy - ESB.
- Yoda destroying the Jedi tree & texts with fire - Luke burning Vader's body in ROTJ (same framing both times).
- Casino intro - the ANH Cantina was already copied in AOTC and again in TFA. people in an Earth place wearing alien masks very original.
- Slave boy racing animals - Anakin podracing in TPM.
- Smashing the Vader mask - the mask Luke already burned in a giant bonfire in ROTJ.
- Hero gives themselves up to bad guy to change them - ROTJ
- Red Room Duel - entire sequence based on ROTJ, with lines of dialog lifted wholesale.
- Sith apprentice shockingly kills Sith master - Vader also kills the main badguy in ROTJ.
- Bad guy and good guy work together for a brief moment then leave offscreen before the spaceship gets blown up - ROTJ.
- Villain offers dual ruling of the universe w good guy - Vader to Luke in ESB.
- Lightspeed Star Destroyer - super star destroyer first has a collision w another in ROTJ. they do this again in RO also.
- AT-AT Walkers on white landscape - Hoth battle ESB.
- Luke hologram projecting himself - 1) Luke holograms to Jabba at the start of ROTJ. 2) Obi Wan force projects across 2 planets in ESB. 3) Princess Leia hologram of hope in ANH.
- Luke sacrificing himself to buy his friends time to escape - Obi Wan also dies in a duel vs. a Sith Lord on the other side of a slowly closing door at the end of ANH.
- Twin Suns callback - ANH (cos i guess you think of the peace of home when you die while threatening your nephew with eternal war).
- Recognizing somebody is buying you time - Han Solo figured this out 3/4 through ANH while this is the cap of Poe's grand character arc in TLJ.
- Lifting rocks - ESB
- "This movie is about failure" - ESB is actually about failure, in TLJ all the lead characters end up more powerful than they were at the start.
- Broom kids retelling the events of Star Wars to young consumers in the audience - 3P0 and R2 retelling the events of Star Wars to Ewoks ROTJ

FWIW this started with an idea for a supercut video that I might eventually make. I was going to find clips of KK and RJ saying "new" and "never before done" etc. and intercut them with every shot from an OT film that does the same thing. I think it would be hilarious to hear "This bold new vision" over and over again while similar scenes play side by side.

 

[Nymphae]

Broom kids retelling the events of Star Wars to young consumers in the audience - 3P0 and R2 retelling the events of Star Wars to Ewoks ROTJ

I think you're stretching on some of these, and a lot of them do just seem like callbacks/homages to me.

 

[Neverwas]

oh good, another TLJ thread.

 

[pel1300]

Some of these I think are intentional homages, not rip offs IMO.

But in general yes I agree TLJ is has little originality and is a bunch of Empire and ROTJ scenes recreated with alternations and the end result flipped or tweaked....and then a couple ANH scenes recreated for good measure. It's amazing how people think it's bold and original.

The throne room sequence alone....my god how can people not see how ridiculously rehashed it is?

The moment Snoke showed Rey "Look. your friends are dyin" - I was thinking in the theater "No....no no please no, I really wanted to like this movie, please no, omg this can't be real you gotta be shitting me"

Snoke's death is a response to fans whining that Luke didn't kill Palpatine the same way. Palpatine has his eyes closed talking in the same manner. UGH.

TFA felt a bit like a soft reboot/retread....TLJ felt like a PARODY of Empire and ROTJ. The dialogue was ripped straight from ROTJ.

"I feel the conflict in you"

"Now...fullfill your...desstinyyy!!"

 

[Raven117]

I enjoyed watching it for the popcorn flick that all Star Wars are. Its not effing Tolstoy.

 

[Nymphae]

I enjoyed watching it for the popcorn flick that all Star Wars are. Its not effing Tolstoy.

I feel like people give a lot of things a pass because they are only about 2 hours out of their life, and there are lots of good visuals. No one needed Tolstoy, but this isn't even Lucas.

 

[Raven117]

I feel like people give a lot of things a pass because they are only about 2 hours out of their life, and there are lots of good visuals. No one needed Tolstoy, but this isn't even Lucas.

It’s more of a.... let it go... Star Wars was never more than popcorn flicks. Star Wars fans (like; the crazy ones) are truly the the worst in all of fandom)

 

[Nymphae]

It’s more of a.... let it go... Star Wars was never more than popcorn flicks

I agree, and that's exactly what I did after TLJ to be honest lol. Like I just don't have anymore investment in it besides being a fan of the first 6, I don't care at all what they do with it. I'm not angry, I don't go out of my way to talk about it, I'm more just disappointed and sort of stunned that they let it happen this way. The comeback could have been so amazing for new fans and old fans alike.

That said, I'm not above arguing about it on message boards from time to time lol (seems like lots of TLJ talk lately). I think your comment about just watching as a 2 hour spectacle is valid, but I mean come on, this OP aside, I think there are a ton of valid complaints about the direction the franchise has taken and the quality of many aspects of this film. The way they handled the legacy stuff, the way this film fumbled the pass set up by JJ and sort of leaves you wondering as to what the final part of the trilogy will even be about, plot holes, poor plotting, etc.

I feel like as long as there are cool visuals on screen for 2 hours, there will be people defending it or at least trying to downplay criticisms of others because it legitimately entertained them for 2 hours and they weren't hung up on bad writing/plotting/character treatments/plot holes etc, but I think all of those things can and should be discussed. This movie has serious flaws and might be the worst second part of a trilogy I've ever seen. I mean obviously none of them are above criticism, but I think it's clear that it wasn't handled in an optimal way in terms of being what fans wanted. That's not to say they must listen to entitled fanbabies on the internet for everything, but some reverence for the massive cultural work of art you are inheriting would be nice. I feel like JJ had a bit of that going on...and then RJ was like oh hey guys let me just fuck all this shit up for you.

 

[Raven117]

I agree, and that's exactly what I did after TLJ to be honest lol. Like I just don't have anymore investment in it besides being a fan of the first 6, I don't care at all what they do with it. I'm not angry, I don't go out of my way to talk about it, I'm more just disappointed and sort of stunned that they let it happen this way. The comeback could have been so amazing for new fans and old fans alike.

That said, I'm not above arguing about it on message boards from time to time lol (seems like lots of TLJ talk lately). I think your comment about just watching as a 2 hour spectacle is valid, but I mean come on, this OP aside, I think there are a ton of valid complaints about the direction the franchise has taken and the quality of many aspects of this film. The way they handled the legacy stuff, the way this film fumbled the pass set up by JJ and sort of leaves you wondering as to what the final part of the trilogy will even be about, plot holes, poor plotting, etc.

I feel like as long as there are cool visuals on screen for 2 hours, there will be people defending it or at least trying to downplay criticisms of others because it legitimately entertained them for 2 hours and they weren't hung up on bad writing/plotting/character treatments/plot holes etc, but I think all of those things can and should be discussed. This movie has serious flaws and might be the worst second part of a trilogy I've ever seen. I mean obviously none of them are above criticism, but I think it's clear that it wasn't handled in an optimal way in terms of being what fans wanted. That's not to say they must listen to entitled fanbabies on the internet for everything, but some reverence for the massive cultural work of art you are inheriting would be nice. I feel like JJ had a bit of that going on...and then RJ was like oh hey guys let me just fuck all this shit up for you.

This is a well reasoned post! What is it doing in a Star Wars thread?

 

[#Phonepunk#]

some more references to add to the list:

- Emperor/Snoke tells hero to look out the window at everyone dying - ROTJ
- Vader/Kylo extends hand to hero, hero tearfully refuses - ESB
- Hux/Empire henchman attempts to usurp Vader/Kylo and gets Force Choked into submission - ANH
- We know our heros are safe at the end cos they shut a door on the Millenium Falcon - ESB

saw the movie again, watched it for the rifftrax, it's still such a bad movie. Holdo and Leia are entirely incompetent, kind of ironic that the first "girl power" led Resistance is the one that gets everybody killed. then again Holdo let her ship get taken over by a mutiny, and then one scene later, she's looking at Poe with Leia like a puppy dog. these aren't leaders, they are idiots. another scene i don't like, when Luke is burning the "jedi tree", he's all mad and gonna burn that jedi tree, he's walking up to it, then Yoda burns it, then he's upset that it's burning! dude, like 10 seconds ago you were holding a bomb in your hand.

Canto Bight is just dumb beyond belief, the characters are basically on a theme park ride, watching shit happen around them. DJ rescues them from certain doom 2 times in a row then they are saved from execution by Holdo ramming her ship into them. these aren't heroes, things just happen to them.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

People kept calling The Last Jedi "bold" and "new" and "unexpected". Bullshit. The movie actually ripped off the OT more than TFA. It still blows my mind that people give JJ crap for rehashing OT plotlines but RJ does the same thing and gets away with it.

Already with the anticipation for IX we are seeing the old arguments, "Oh JJ is gonna give fanboys what they love" as if RJ didn't do exactly that. The narrative is that The Last Jedi is disliked not because it's a bad movie but because it was too different. LOL. A load of bollocks, i say. Tbh this was the film's biggest sin for me, it didn't tell me anything new, yet it pretending all this old stuff was mindblowing.

Here's a list of things to prove that. Funny thing is, I had a list a while ago, but the more I thought about it, the more things turn up that were already done in the older films. Feel free to add anything you think of!

- Poe joking over comm link - Han does this more naturally & more realistically in ANH
- Finn in medical suit - Luke in ESB
- Luke tossing the lightsaber - he does this in ROTJ. the last time we see Luke offered a lightsaber was from the Emperor.
- Leia Poppins - Leia has been shown to use the force w skype awareness in ESB/ROTJ. the ice/frozen awakening into (zero g here) force pull was used by Luke in the Wampa cave in ESB.
- Skywalker (Luke/Leia) seriously injured, spends unspecified time knocked out, healed back at base - ESB.
- Jedi Master not wanting to train young Jedi - Yoda not wanting to train Luke in ESB.
- Jedi Master not wanting to fight - Yoda was dismissive in ESB "Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great".
- R2 projecting Leia hologram in Millenium Falcon - ANH RJ "Cheap shot" how to lampshade blatant nostalgia and get away with it.
- Jedi trainee hole in the tree - exactly like ESB.
- Jedi Master lying to pupil - Obi Wan admits this in ROTJ.
- Yoda acting goofy - ESB.
- Yoda destroying the Jedi tree & texts with fire - Luke burning Vader's body in ROTJ (same framing both times).
- Casino intro - the ANH Cantina was already copied in AOTC and again in TFA. people in an Earth place wearing alien masks very original.
- Slave boy racing animals - Anakin podracing in TPM.
- Smashing the Vader mask - the mask Luke already burned in a giant bonfire in ROTJ.
- Hero gives themselves up to bad guy to change them - ROTJ
- Red Room Duel - entire sequence based on ROTJ, with lines of dialog lifted wholesale.
- Sith apprentice shockingly kills Sith master - Vader also kills the main badguy in ROTJ.
- Bad guy and good guy work together for a brief moment then leave offscreen before the spaceship gets blown up - ROTJ.
- Villain offers dual ruling of the universe w good guy - Vader to Luke in ESB.
- Lightspeed Star Destroyer - super star destroyer first has a collision w another in ROTJ. they do this again in RO also.
- AT-AT Walkers on white landscape - Hoth battle ESB.
- Luke hologram projecting himself - 1) Luke holograms to Jabba at the start of ROTJ. 2) Obi Wan force projects across 2 planets in ESB. 3) Princess Leia hologram of hope in ANH.
- Luke sacrificing himself to buy his friends time to escape - Obi Wan also dies in a duel vs. a Sith Lord on the other side of a slowly closing door at the end of ANH.
- Twin Suns callback - ANH (cos i guess you think of the peace of home when you die while threatening your nephew with eternal war).
- Recognizing somebody is buying you time - Han Solo figured this out 3/4 through ANH while this is the cap of Poe's grand character arc in TLJ.
- Lifting rocks - ESB
- "This movie is about failure" - ESB is actually about failure, in TLJ all the lead characters end up more powerful than they were at the start.
- Broom kids retelling the events of Star Wars to young consumers in the audience - 3P0 and R2 retelling the events of Star Wars to Ewoks ROTJ

FWIW this started with an idea for a supercut video that I might eventually make. I was going to find clips of KK and RJ saying "new" and "never before done" etc. and intercut them with every shot from an OT film that does the same thing. I think it would be hilarious to hear "This bold new vision" over and over again while similar scenes play side by side.

When I first saw TLJ, I was one of those people saying it was bold and called RJ brave.

As time went on, I’ve changed that perspective a little.

I still enjoy film, other than the Canto Blight filler nonsense, but in general I wish RJ didn’t “do what he did,” basically. I think it’s pretty clearly a mistake.

 

[Airola]

I wonder what happens first, people accepting Trump as the US President or people accepting the existence of The Last Jedi.

 

[pel1300]

I'm puzzled by the notion that Luke in TLJ is unique or original or has depth to it.

We've seen this story trope done multiple times and executed better.

If Luke was EU level powerful and behaved just like he did in ROTJ I would have been shocked. THAT would have subverted my expectations.

I'm also puzzled by the notion that Mark Hamill came around to TLJ and considers it "GREAT" after watching it....makes me wonder if they have ever been in a situation where they disagreed with their boss but also wanted to be honest to the consumers. Anyone who believes Mark likes the direction Rian took has no concept of PR 101

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i mean it looks great, it got great reviews, it made a great amount of money. he's in the next movie so he's not going to say "Oh this movie sucked!" before going in to film the next one. Mark is a professional, you don't throw your friends and colleagues and employers under the bus, no matter how you feel about the project. frankly i'm more amazed Disney didn't purge every mention of his not be satisfied w the direction. then again i can see how allowing those moments to surface was a useful propaganda tool for marketing the film as "brave and risky".

IMO the film was entirely too Luke centric. the writers kept complaining that introducing Luke overshadowed everything else in their writing and you see that, it makes the films suffer. the reality is that this isn't a problem with the character, it's a problem with the writers. they don't have the imagination.

i didn't need an hour and a half of Luke, give me 5 minutes, then an hour and a half of new adventures, with new characters. as is, we can count the number of new characters on one hand.

 

[pel1300]

i mean it looks great, it got great reviews, it made a great amount of money. he's in the next movie so he's not going to say "Oh this movie sucked!" before going in to film the next one. Mark is a professional, you don't throw your friends and colleagues and employers under the bus, no matter how you feel about the project. frankly i'm more amazed Disney didn't purge every mention of his not be satisfied w the direction. then again i can see how allowing those moments to surface was a useful propaganda tool for marketing the film as "brave and risky".

IMO the film was entirely too Luke centric. the writers kept complaining that introducing Luke overshadowed everything else in their writing and you see that, it makes the films suffer. the reality is that this isn't a problem with the character, it's a problem with the writers. they don't have the imagination.

i didn't need an hour and a half of Luke, give me 5 minutes, then an hour and a half of new adventures, with new characters. as is, we can count the number of new characters on one hand.

Exactly. They were so concerned about Luke overshadowing or taking attention away from Rey and Finn that in the process....they did exactly that by accident. The movie is very Luke centric as you put it, and it takes away from further developing Rey as a character.

The 1st half of TFA has Rey with actual development. It's in the films 2nd or 3rd act that Rey starts to become a bit hollow and just too good at everything. I thought in TLJ they would tone down Rey's skills and abilities a bit to make her more relatable, but they actually doubled down on it, and the lack of a time jump just makes it even more jarring. Had the opening crawl implied that at least a year had passed, I would have been able to buy that Rey had been training under Luke for a full year, maybe visiting the island multiple times in that time skip.

I could have also bought that Maz Kanata trained Rey since Maz is supposed to be very wise and also Force sensitive.

Every defense I had for Rey in TFA (Maybe she had prior training we don't know about, and Kylo was injured and would have defeated her with ease had he not been mortally wounded, etc.)....

all of those defenses went straight out the window when just a few days later she is shown to be Kylo's equal or even better than him (she wins the Force tug o war for the lightsaber, and Kylo is most definitely not mortally wounded there.)

On another note, TLJ threads on ERA are just embarrassing. Fans of the film keep trying to shut down any criticism and getting all sensitive and hostile towards people who make fun of the film or say anything negative about it.....taking some posters who make a lighthearted joke on the film literally when they clearly are being sarcastic.

Not to mention constant calling TLJ detractors "manbabies" or "fanboy nerds".....there's something ironic and funny about hardcore SW fans on internet message boards calling each other nerds as an insult.

Then they cling to this narrative that Marcia Lucas is the only reason the OT is great, constant criticism of George Lucas.....not one member giving credit to Gary Kurtz, Lawrence Kasdan, and Ben Burt, just constant praise and worship of Marcia Lucas for the OT and Kathleen Kennedy for TLJ. Cheebo in particularly is almost like a satirical stereotype of a TLJ fan. She(or he?) keeps defending the movie like a Press Secretary defends a President.

And they keep linking the rotten tomatoes score and its 1.3 billion box office number to prove how good it is, conveniently ignoring the extremely low audience ratings or dismissing the low ratings as trolls or bots, and ignoring how the movie was expected to make considerably more than 1.3 billion before its release date. I clearly remember prediction threads there of people predicting anywhere between 1.6 billion to 2 billion. TLJ threads there are fascinating and kind of like a microcosm of the world now. The discussion of TLJ there doesn't resemble film talk at all. It reads more like politics threads.

 

[hargwood]

I really enjoyed how Rian Johnson subverted my expectations.

I enjoyed STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS; Leia is now Superman, Rey is God and Holdo is Jesus dying for our sins. So epic!

I was absolutely disgusted by the hate bigot nazi Poe Dameron. Who does he think he is mansplaining to the brave Admiral Holdo?

You know what I also loved? I really enjoyed being taught that animal cruelty and child slavery is wrong by the wonderfully diverse Finn and Rose. Anyone who says this segment was unneccessary and designed by committee can just take a hike!

Yoda was so amazing! Burning those books written by the problematic Jedi. So good to see.

And Luke? It was just really refreshing that white men can realise that they aren't needed anymore. God I wish all these old boomer white males would just step aside! I mean c'mon it's 2019!

 

[pel1300]

Oh before TFA came out:

Rey or Poe being a Skywalker or a Solo was considered a given. Like of course Leie or Luke or both would have kids.

Kennedy announced "This will be the new trilogy following the Skywalkers and their children", -children is plural

Then rumors circulating that Adam Driver was kylo Ren and either the son of Leia or Luke.

That reinforced Rey must be a Skywalker or Solo, and the person Luke is referring to in that 2nd TFA teaser trailer "You have that power too" (such a great teaser btw, kind of depressing to watch in retrospect)

Coupled with Kennedy announcing the protagonist was female, and the trilogy would be about the next generation of Skywalkers.....it was considered a given obvious fact almost....Rey = Luke or Leia's daughter

No one was saying "I don't want that!!! That's redundant!!" or "I don't want everyone to be related to a Skywalker!!!!"

Why? Because at the time we thought Finn be Force sensitive as well. The marketing implied Finn could become a Jedi and then did a bait n switch with Finn in TFA that pissed fans off.

Now that TLJ is out...it among hardcore SW fandom, it's considered "cool" and "smart" to reject the idea of Rey being related to anyone special as being "lazy writing" or "cliche" or "redundant".....because the Force needs to be democratized...as if it wasn't already in the established SW lore.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Then they cling to this narrative that Marcia Lucas is the only reason the OT is great, constant criticism of George Lucas.....not one member giving credit to Gary Kurtz, Lawrence Kasdan, and Ben Burt, just constant praise and worship of Marcia Lucas for the OT and Kathleen Kennedy for TLJ. Cheebo in particularly is almost like a satirical stereotype of a TLJ fan. She(or he?) keeps defending the movie like a Press Secretary defends a President.

otm. lol yes you can almost see the wires sparking. "People only want super hero goku Luke" /one page later/ posts image of Luke standing in front of AT-ATs "This is the greatest scene in Star Wars history" "Dumb fans only want fan service" / a page later / "Who else cried when R2D2 showed the Leia hologram?"

the rewriting history thing is troublesome. lots of people saying George Lucas didn't really think this stuff out, he made it all up as he went along, just like the new people. not true. he had been writing Star Wars since 1973, and was talking about it around the making of American Graffiti. before they got the green light he had written and rewritten half a dozen versions of the film(s), inventing & reworking characters (at one point Luke was a girl), come up with setpieces that would be used in sequels and prequels, come up with characters used in movies that wouldn't come out for 30 years, etc. yes he didn't write Episodes I, II, III, IV, V, VI complete from beginning to end in that order in 1973, but to say he was entirely making it up is silly and displays an ignorance of the creative process.

this is the kind of misinformation people spread when they get all their movie history from youtubers or otherwise just make shit up to defend the new films. i highly recommend seeking out "The Secret History of Star Wars", the audiobook of which is on youtube, for a fascinating look at the real history of the making of the original epic. this is a book that has been researched for years and years, the guy really knows his stuff. quite wisely it begins by pointing out that the thing we now know as The Star Wars franchise really has little to do with the simple, optimistic film that came out in 1977.

 

[Kadayi]

I agree, and that's exactly what I did after TLJ to be honest lol. Like I just don't have anymore investment in it besides being a fan of the first 6, I don't care at all what they do with it. I'm not angry, I don't go out of my way to talk about it, I'm more just disappointed and sort of stunned that they let it happen this way. The comeback could have been so amazing for new fans and old fans alike.

That said, I'm not above arguing about it on message boards from time to time lol (seems like lots of TLJ talk lately). I think your comment about just watching as a 2 hour spectacle is valid, but I mean come on, this OP aside, I think there are a ton of valid complaints about the direction the franchise has taken and the quality of many aspects of this film. The way they handled the legacy stuff, the way this film fumbled the pass set up by JJ and sort of leaves you wondering as to what the final part of the trilogy will even be about, plot holes, poor plotting, etc.

I feel like as long as there are cool visuals on screen for 2 hours, there will be people defending it or at least trying to downplay criticisms of others because it legitimately entertained them for 2 hours and they weren't hung up on bad writing/plotting/character treatments/plot holes etc, but I think all of those things can and should be discussed. This movie has serious flaws and might be the worst second part of a trilogy I've ever seen. I mean obviously none of them are above criticism, but I think it's clear that it wasn't handled in an optimal way in terms of being what fans wanted. That's not to say they must listen to entitled fanbabies on the internet for everything, but some reverence for the massive cultural work of art you are inheriting would be nice. I feel like JJ had a bit of that going on...and then RJ was like oh hey guys let me just fuck all this shit up for you.

Personally, I think TFA was a huge misstep myself. Of all the directions to take a new trilogy rebooting the empire and essentially undoing the events of the previous films was not the way to go. Abrams was a terrible choice to pass the reigns to because from a creative perspective he's a remixer rather than an actual innovator.

 

[pel1300]

otm. lol yes you can almost see the wires sparking. "People only want super hero goku Luke" /one page later/ posts image of Luke standing in front of AT-ATs "This is the greatest scene in Star Wars history" "Dumb fans only want fan service" / a page later / "Who else cried when R2D2 showed the Leia hologram?"

the rewriting history thing is troublesome. lots of people saying George Lucas didn't really think this stuff out, he made it all up as he went along, just like the new people. not true. he had been writing Star Wars since 1973, and was talking about it around the making of American Graffiti. before they got the green light he had written and rewritten half a dozen versions of the film(s), inventing & reworking characters (at one point Luke was a girl), come up with setpieces that would be used in sequels and prequels, come up with characters used in movies that wouldn't come out for 30 years, etc. yes he didn't write Episodes I, II, III, IV, V, VI complete from beginning to end in that order in 1973, but to say he was entirely making it up is silly and displays an ignorance of the creative process.

this is the kind of misinformation people spread when they get all their movie history from youtubers or otherwise just make shit up to defend the new films. i highly recommend seeking out "The Secret History of Star Wars", the audiobook of which is on youtube, for a fascinating look at the real history of the making of the original epic. this is a book that has been researched for years and years, the guy really knows his stuff. quite wisely it begins by pointing out that the thing we now know as The Star Wars franchise really has little to do with the simple, optimistic film that came out in 1977.

Cool, I'll check that out. I saw a clip about "The SW we almost got"explaining a comic series that came out in the 70's...but don't know how accurate it is. It talked about there being two characters - one an Imperial Officer with a Vader like helmet but no Force powers, and another powerful Dark Side villain with no Vader helmet, and that the two of them would be merged into Darth Vader.

I found this pretty amusing:

 

[daveonezero]

I know I'm in the minority or not even represented on GAF but I liked the TLJ. I think it is a better show if you have watched the animated series'. It hit a lot of beats of that and had lots of cool elements from those hours of show. This has been my experience with the response as well.

People that have only watched the movies don't like it but the ones in the now cannon universe liked it. Although there is another fan out there who is into all the stuff from the legends where some crazy shit happens and I could see them not liking it either.

I view most movies as entertainment value and this was a fun flick.

Are ya'll serious that Yoda burned the books? Did you not notice that he knew the books weren't in there?

 

[MoFuzz]

I know I'm in the minority or not even represented on GAF but I liked the TLJ. I think it is a better show if you have watched the animated series'. It hit a lot of beats of that and had lots of cool elements from those hours of show. This has been my experience with the response as well.

People that have only watched the movies don't like it but the ones in the now cannon universe liked it. Although there is another fan out there who is into all the stuff from the legends where some crazy shit happens and I could see them not liking it either.

I view most movies as entertainment value and this was a fun flick.

Are ya'll serious that Yoda burned the books? Did you not notice that he knew the books weren't in there?

All good if you enjoyed it. I don't think that's been a point of contention among anyone reasonable.

Having to go outside of the film to third party sources such as comics, TV shows, & video games should be complimentary, but ideally a film should stand on its own. Many people simply don't have the interest or time to dig into auxiliary content for things that should have been discussed in the main feature. There's definitely a place for this kind of material, and it can expand upon the lore and universe, but it shouldn't really be required viewing, so to speak.

The Jedi texts being destroyed or not wasn't really the issue in my eyes. It was the symbolic gesture of a figurehead like Yoda setting fire to the tree, while quite literally "burning the past" and everything it stood for. In fact, most of his dialogue and behavior in this film was completely out of character. For instance, there was no reason why he reverted back to acting like a strange hermit, prior to his 'true self' reveal to Luke in ESB.

In addition, it was continuity breaking to have a force ghost character being able to summon fire in the physical world and cause massive damage to a real world object. In spite of the fact that it flies in face of every other interaction between force ghosts and people in the prior films, it opens up a whole host of problems with why ghosts can't intervene in future conflict. Like so much of what happens in this movie, it is completely inconsistent with prior films in the series that came before it.

There are only two potential explanations that I can think of, to somehow explain all of this. Either Rian didn't watch or pay attention to the prior movies or Rian doesn't care. Neither one bodes well for the film or the franchise, in my opinion.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

the Jedi texts, i was like, ok, here is this thing they are dropping in out of nowhere. Jedi texts have never been mentioned and we have 6 films chronicling the rise and fall of the Jedi. they seem pretty unimportant! so when they showed up and then were burned soon after, it didn't matter at all to me. so the idea that it's this break from the past rang hollow, when they were never ever referenced in the past, never once mentioned in the previous 12+ hours of movies all about Jedi.

and they weren't burned anyways, so even that premise is hollow. Rian does this over and over in the film, setting up some dramatic subversion and then quickly rejecting it for plot demands. it seems like he is outsmarting himself constantly, it ends up making things feel contrived and showy. this shouldn't be complicated, this is a simple space movie, stop trying to look clever.

also the name, "the sacred Jedi texts" really? they didn't bother coming up with a name for them? that's what you call it in the first draft. lazy writing.

 

[Nymphae]

edi texts have never been mentioned and we have 6 films chronicling the rise and fall of the Jedi.

There was the Jedi Archives or whatever that Obi-Wan visits in Episode 2, with all the holo-tapes and shit. I guess all of that stuff was destroyed?

 

[MoFuzz]

the Jedi texts, i was like, ok, here is this thing they are dropping in out of nowhere. Jedi texts have never been mentioned and we have 6 films chronicling the rise and fall of the Jedi. they seem pretty unimportant! so when they showed up and then were burned soon after, it didn't matter at all to me. so the idea that it's this break from the past rang hollow, when they were never ever referenced in the past, never once mentioned in the previous 12+ hours of movies all about Jedi.

also the name, "the sacred Jedi texts" really? they didn't bother coming up with a name for them? that's what you call it in the first draft. lazy writing.

That's true. Much like Han's stupid balls dice, they seemed to forcibly try to make it a significant part of the lore, when no one in either the universe or the fanbase cared about it previously.

 

[sol_bad]

I think you are pretty much stretching on every point. You may as well just say all films are they same, not just Star Wars films.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

It may be time to accept that the original Star Wars trilogy told the best Star Wars story you could possibly ever tell, what more could you really do that wouldn't fall into formula but still feel "Star Wars"?

The Prequel trilogy tried to tell a completely different story and it just kinda sucked, now the Sequel just rehashes the old... and it sucks.

We didn't need more Star Wars, what fooled people into thinking we did was the fact that it took place in such a fully fleshed out world, but it was only ever the story of Luke Skywalker and his story was done with Return of The Jedi.

What we need is more things like Harry Potter or The Matrix that are within the same monomyth mold, but are all new at the same time.

I think had The Matrix sequels succeeded we'd be living in an entirely different cultural landscape, instead their failure sent the message to Hollywood that they needed to keep rehashing the old instead of trying to make something new.

I mean, remember The Matrix? Remember how that was supposed to be the next big sci fi franchise? I remember reading a review of Star Trek Nemesis that dismissed Star Trek as dead and heralded The Matrix Reloaded as the next big nerd obsession, oops.

 

[sol_bad]

Hate me all you want but the originals story and characters aren't even that great. It's a bog standard save the princess and then kill the bad guys story. It's the setting that makes it so memorable.

 

[oagboghi2]

Hate me all you want but the originals story and characters aren't even that great. It's a bog standard save the princess and then kill the bad guys story. It's the setting that makes it so memorable.

And yet, somehow it's still better than the last jedi. Imagine that

 

[#Phonepunk#]

couple more to add to the list

- X-wing submerged in the water (ESB)
- Red robed praetorian guards (ROTJ and also Yoda takes them out again in ROTS)

yes you can say "every story ever has a spaceship with the same design submerged under water" or "every story ever has the main villain keep faceless guards dressed in red" but then you would be full of crap. George & co. invented it nearly 40 years ago, Disney & co. merely purchased it and pretended they invented it.

face it, they have no imagination. that's why the upcoming tv series are 1) about Boba Fett's mask and 2) Obi Wan, a character who is already in 6 full length films.

 

[sol_bad]

And yet, somehow it's still better than the last jedi. Imagine that

Oh
And of course John Williams music score is incredible and will be forever remembered throughout time.

 

[Halo is Back]

It may be time to accept that the original Star Wars trilogy told the best Star Wars story you could possibly ever tell, what more could you really do that wouldn't fall into formula but still feel "Star Wars"?

The Prequel trilogy tried to tell a completely different story and it just kinda sucked, now the Sequel just rehashes the old... and it sucks.

We didn't need more Star Wars, what fooled people into thinking we did was the fact that it took place in such a fully fleshed out world, but it was only ever the story of Luke Skywalker and his story was done with Return of The Jedi.

What we need is more things like Harry Potter or The Matrix that are within the same monomyth mold, but are all new at the same time.

I think had The Matrix sequels succeeded we'd be living in an entirely different cultural landscape, instead their failure sent the message to Hollywood that they needed to keep rehashing the old instead of trying to make something new.

I mean, remember The Matrix? Remember how that was supposed to be the next big sci fi franchise? I remember reading a review of Star Trek Nemesis that dismissed Star Trek as dead and heralded The Matrix Reloaded as the next big nerd obsession, oops.

I believe the amount of great stories that can be told in the Star Wars universe are near limitless. Just look are KOTOR and Republic commando. The potential is there the problem is George Lucas was never that great of a story teller and the hacks that Disney keep hiring do not make anything better especially when they are SO DAMN occupied with rehashing old ideas in the hope of old neck beards to buy tickets. I think SOLO was a good wake up call for them.

 

[Acerac]

The movie would have been bold and unexpected AND a coherent flick if they just did the fucking plot twist they spent the entire movie setting up.

How can you spend so much time foreshadowing Rey turning and not do it? Why spend so much time showing her succeeding using force and anger while showing the doubt of Kylo and the grey morality on the casino planet if you were gonna do absolutely nothing with it? Why? Was the goal to blueball everyone who expected something interesting to happen?

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I believe the amount of great stories that can be told in the Star Wars universe are near limitless. Just look are KOTOR and Republic commando. The potential is there the problem is George Lucas was never that great of a story teller and the hacks that Disney keep hiring do not make anything better especially when they are SO DAMN occupied with rehashing old ideas in the hope of old neck beards to buy tickets. I think SOLO was a good wake up call for them.

KOTOR was good (haven't played Republic Commando) but it did use a lot of tried and true Star Wars formula, which worked in a video game, but had it been movies? Maybe not.

Of course it wouldn't have impossible to make more good Star Wars movies, all it takes is the right talent, Blade Runner 2049 proves that.

But Disney still dropped the ball.

The movie would have been bold and unexpected AND a coherent flick if they just did the fucking plot twist they spent the entire movie setting up.

How can you spend so much time foreshadowing Rey turning and not do it? Why spend so much time showing her succeeding using force and anger while showing the doubt of Kylo and the grey morality on the casino planet if you were gonna do absolutely nothing with it? Why? Was the goal to blueball everyone who expected something interesting to happen?

They obviously got cold feet when they realized all the feminists would REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE over it.