If we're ultimately referring to The Sudden Departure, I think the show is just taking the stance of the boom, even if that is convenient for Lindelof.
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The Leftovers S2 |OT| We're Going To Texas - [Renewed for 3rd and final season]
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
If we're ultimately referring to The Sudden Departure, I think the show is just taking the stance of the boom, even if that is convenient for Lindelof.
Corpsepyre
Banned
Muthafucka! Here we go. Lost 2.0 incoming.
I've been into this show since about halfway through season 1. That said, please... no. Hyperbole to the detrimental extreme.
Grimm Fandango
Member
Fun episode.
Ah, Lethe, good point. That's clearly what they were going for, indeed.
What's particularly funny about that bit is that it served no fucking point other than to clumsily render Virgil completely useless when convenient to the writers, in the end.
Protagonist was offered water on different occasions, but all he had to do was to reply "nah, thanks, I'm good". And again, he drank some alcohol at some point, so it seems any drink other than plain water was fine and thirst wouldn't be an issue anyway. So much for that.
So, yeah, it was just used on Virgil, so that Protagonist would hit a dead end when he went back to him to complain about the time wasted on that assassination plot ("what the fuck? I did what you told me to do, and it didn't work!"), but I'm not sure why Virgil drank water when he was the one who prohibited Protagonist from doing so in the first place ("I was thirsty!" well, drink something else then, you moron).
The episode had no problem spinning its wheels before that (Virgil acting like a concierge for quite a while before actually "answering" Protagonist's questions, the whole assassination scenario), but we're at a point where we have to move on, so, huh, let's have Virgil stupidly drink water that makes him forget everything and Protagonist immediately understand what happened so he'll quickly give up on that particular lead and leave the hotel.
"I'll just keep writing my usual random BS "mysteries" that are only there to lure viewers, and I'll use the lack of answers as an excuse for my poorly written characters' actions. Sounds like a plan!"Damon Lindelof said:
Yeah, completely "different". Exact same shit as Lost (except it's more pretentious, kudos), but hey.Damon Lindelof said:
Ah, Lindelof...
Sure would be a bit too obvious of a mess without the actors (or the score, I guess, if you're not annoyed by the heavy-handedness, but yeah, this week, it's probably a bit too late to thank Verdi... and on top of that, it really felt like they just had a chimp push the "Va, pensiero" button once in a while).Damon Lindelof said:
I guess it's nice that Lindelof kinda/sorta acknowledges that he/the writing is the weak link.
digitalrelic
Banned
You must be a hit a parties.
I think there could be several explanations for the water thing, but my thought is that in the "real" world, Virgil offed himself but putting a bullet through the back of his head. There's no coming back from that. Whereas Kevin drank Virgil's "poison" concoction that was filled with who knows what. Maybe it wasn't poison at all. Maybe he's hanging on for dear life and his decisions in the hotel are what decides whether or not he comes back. Virgil's decision has already been made. He's dead. So what I'm getting at, is maybe the decision to drink water wasn't so much a logical or conscious one, but one that stemmed out of reality, where Kevin could actually physically "come back" and Virgil couldn't because he has no freakin' head left.
As for your critique on his trying to do something "completely different". Well yeah, it's similar in tone to Lost. He's the same guy who wrote Lost. Why would his writing style suddenly change dramatically? The fact is, there's nothing out there that's like Lost or The Leftovers. He's doing something different and that's undeniable.
The rest of your criticisms are simply your personal opinion (a personal opinion that I happen to completely disagree with, at that). I know it's already been said, but I truthfully don't understand why you'd continue to watch Lindelof's work if you hate it as much as your writing suggests.
"Sorry about my opinion"? I guess?
(I'm still not seeing people elaborating on what made the episode "good" exactly...)
If reading negative criticism of something you like merely makes you feel personally insulted and perhaps also attack the critic in return (rather than try and address his arguments), you're probably better off using that feature, I guess, yeah...
digitalrelic
Banned
Read my edited post above.
Also what made the episode good:
The boldness of the entire concept
The perfectly chosen score
The acting
The cinematography & choreography
That perfect "dream-like" tone
The amazing writing that shifted Patty from a villain to a character that you feel empathy for in a matter of minutes
The intrigue and question marks that stemmed throughout the episode
The subtle hints at past and future story line elements like Holy Wayne, the sparrow, Perth Australia, Mary Jamison, etc..
The heart wrenching Jeopardy dialogue (which also gave a clue as to why the Guilty Remnant doesn't speak)
I could go on and on, but it won't matter. You didn't like the episode. All the reasons in the world aren't going to change that.
Considering Kevin (that was his name!) was buried and (... fuck, I don't remember that other character's name...) the neighbor's kid was really shocked to see him dig his way out of the ground, I think it's fair to conclude that Kevin was plenty dead as well, regardless of what he drank (I would imagine it really was poison, and there was no "antidote" in the first place).
Now, it's quite likely Virgil never intended to come back when he killed himself (he said he was "atoning"... although I'm not sure why he decided to make it his last act to help the new guy in town), and maybe that's why he decided to just give up and drink water, but it seems quite silly to do so before even confirming the guy you sacrificed your life for actually managed to defeat his "adversary".
Why improve, indeed.
Not really, no? I mean, I mentioned Urasawa earlier...
(I also got some Suda51 vibes from the assassin / hotel combo, this week...)
Or we could look at Lindelof's own pal Cuse, who recently worked on a US remake of Les Revenants, for instance. Fairly similar stuff.
So you disagree that, for example, Patti was turned into a completely different character for that well scenario?
I already explained many times and I'm tired of repeating that shit, especially when I shouldn't even have to justify myself in the first place.
digitalrelic
Banned
Again, what I'm implying here is that perhaps it wasn't a conscious decision on Virgil's part. Again, it's all dream-like. Maybe Virgil "forgot" that you shouldn't drink the water as his dead body in real life grew colder in his chair. The water is symbolic, not literal. This is why the whisky doesn't matter. Seriously, you keep going on about this but frankly it's a dream-like purgatory state, so there's lots of explanations you could go for with the water. Pick one.
Erigu said:
I'd argue that he's improved greatly.
Erigu said:
Uh, yes? I completely disagree. This episode acted as an explanation and reasoning for why Patti was the way she was and what drove her to that state. Abuse as a child, lack of self worth, an abusive husband, and her lack of strength to move on from him even when she had the money to do so all illustrate what drove her to where she was. Did you somehow miss all of that?
digitalrelic
Banned
Okay, I'm just going to stop here. I don't want to derail things any further, especially considering what everyone else has said about Erigu in past threads.
It's a difference of opinion, I guess. No debating back-and-forth about whether or not the music was effective or the writing convincing is going to change anyone's mind. If you didn't like it, fine. Just don't expect to convince anyone to not like it with you.
It's a difference of opinion, I guess. No debating back-and-forth about whether or not the music was effective or the writing convincing is going to change anyone's mind. If you didn't like it, fine. Just don't expect to convince anyone to not like it with you.
Thank you!
The purgatory / near-death "dream"? It's been done before, quite a few times. And considering the show introduced a supernatural element right away, that makes it even less surprising/bold, actually...
Wut. How? That was the laziest shit. They just kept using "Va, pensiero" over and over again.
I always find it hard to appreciate the acting when the writing is poor to begin with, but I guess the actors did their best with what they were given to do.
I thought the cinematography was okay. Not bad, but not particularly impressive either.
As for the tone, maybe we could have done without the idiotic drugged-out Dad bit, or the "Theroux has a big dick" joke...
No. They just switched her character for another. That's not "amazing writing". That's a parlor trick.
You probably know how I feel about Lindelof's particular brand of "mystery"... "Cryptic assholes! Cryptic assholes everywhere! I can't be bothered to think this through, and the audience will probably think of something for me anyway!"
("Subtle"?)
I'm not sure how Holy Wayne or Gladys were more than funny cameos.
As for the rest, it didn't advance anything, did it?
The sparrow stuff was already resolved. I'm not sure how one of the dead sparrows (that's what it was supposed to be, right?) appearing there held any kind of significance... Yeah, the hotel is the after-life or the purgatory. Okay. There must be an entire floor for all the other dead animals.
Australia? Yeah, Kevin's father is in Australia. Boy, what an amazing continuity effort, there. Doesn't exactly make up for the utter silliness of that particular scene.
So that leaves Mary, and... yes, that plot is still running. So there's that. But the episode merely referenced it without actually adding anything to it, as far as I can tell?
(I already commented on the "heart-wrenching" part above.)
Wasn't Patti just leading the Guilty Remnants in whatever-town-season-1-was-set-in? She didn't actually create the entire movement, did she?
Not that I think the Jeopardy story would help toward making the Guilty Remnants less silly/unbelievable anyway... That ship has long sailed.
So his dying and the dream-like quality of the underworld made him forget that the water makes you forget? Doesn't that make the water redundant?
(and again, how was Kevin's case all that different? the guy was buried!)
While I agree that the dream-like aspect can excuse a lot of weird stuff that doesn't really make sense, Lindelof comes up with shit like that all the fucking time, dream or not...
And you'd still want it to make sense thematically-speaking, you'd still want the characters to stay true to themselves, but..
You make it sound like one could simply say "huh, shitty childhood" to explain everything and anything a character does. While that would certainly be convenient for lazy writers, I disagree it's that simple.
Like I mentioned earlier, whatever happened to the Patti who didn't hesitate to kill herself right in front of Kevin, for instance? How does that fit with her behavior in the well?
I'm not sure how actually discussing the episode (beyond "I like it" / "I didn't", I mean) could ever be considered "derailing" the thread, but you're naturally free to stop here if you want to.
And thank you again for elaborating.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
There is a difference between having a mystery for mystery's sake, and having some aspects that you acknowledge will never be answered.
One of my concerns for this season was that they'd start putting weird shit in the show just to be quirky. Like the bird being buried in the box. I didn't expect any resolution for that...but there was. The girls probably got sucked down the same place all the water went. So they're actually answering a lot of mysteries that are being created this season.
As far the The Departure, I'm perfectly fine with that never being explained. We don't always get answers to everything in the universe. And it would be pretty ridiculous for a small town sheriff to be the one to figure it out. Maybe if it had only happened in their town, but it happened all over the world.
One of my concerns for this season was that they'd start putting weird shit in the show just to be quirky. Like the bird being buried in the box. I didn't expect any resolution for that...but there was. The girls probably got sucked down the same place all the water went. So they're actually answering a lot of mysteries that are being created this season.
As far the The Departure, I'm perfectly fine with that never being explained. We don't always get answers to everything in the universe. And it would be pretty ridiculous for a small town sheriff to be the one to figure it out. Maybe if it had only happened in their town, but it happened all over the world.
ThLunarian
Member
OMG
That final part in the well
I can't find a YouTube video of it, but the background music during that scene...
Goddamn. They've used it before but here it was just gut-wrenching.
Kadayi
Banned
https://youtu.be/pxEgGTJCl3I?list=RDpxEgGTJCl3I&t
It's part of the original soundtrack for season 1. Jump to around the 11.50 mark.
Chance Hale
Member
Eyes are closed because I only just finished episode 2 of the second season and don't want to be spoiled but this show is turning into a fucking fever dream. Really interested to see where this goes and if any of this is actually happening.
Haha if you think it's a fever dream now...
digitalrelic
Banned
Oh man, you're in for such a treat.
Kadayi
Banned
There hasn't been a show this fearless since Deadwood. Enjoy the ride.
Chance Hale
Member
For anyone watching via Hbo go, is there an odd bar along the bottom where the picture warps? Seems to be present for me no matter the quality or platform used(tried PC, Xbox One, and through my TV)
Watched the first season via blu-ray which obviously didn't have the issue so it's a frustrating annoyance.
Watched the first season via blu-ray which obviously didn't have the issue so it's a frustrating annoyance.
CreepingFear
Member
I've seen this phenomenon that you described. It's grey, right? I did not have it for last night's episode, but I have seen this in the past. I don't know how to fix it myself.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
This show is so fucking weird.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Just watched the latest episode and to use a phrase said in tonight's episode, 'holy shit!'
It's the best show on tv right now, fuck, its the best thing I've seen in years.
I really really hope this series ends with proper closure or it gets picked up for a third series, it would be criminal if the writers dont get to tell this story and let it play out to its natural conclusion.
Incredible television with a show that is actually trying to say something, it's just I dont know what that actually is yet
It's the best show on tv right now, fuck, its the best thing I've seen in years.
I really really hope this series ends with proper closure or it gets picked up for a third series, it would be criminal if the writers dont get to tell this story and let it play out to its natural conclusion.
Incredible television with a show that is actually trying to say something, it's just I dont know what that actually is yet
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Erigu man, again, no problems with questioning the aim of the show, its writing, etc., but god damn do you have to make your points like such a prick? The way you post in here is reminiscent of an art critic stereotype in an 80s teen movie.
Because you have decent points about characterization sometimes! But they're put so abrasively that nobody wants to further that discussion with you. And why should they, when you're just going to sarcastically dismiss every point they try to make?
"I like this", "You actually thought that was good?! That was the worst part!"
Ohhhhhhh my god why am I wasting my time with this.
Anyway, that episode was a trip. And even though it was thematically over the top and heavy handed compared to the rest of the season, I liked how they tempered it with Kevin's frustrated reactions to the madness of it all.
Somehow the reference to The Godfather grounded it. Strange, but for me it did.
Because you have decent points about characterization sometimes! But they're put so abrasively that nobody wants to further that discussion with you. And why should they, when you're just going to sarcastically dismiss every point they try to make?
"I like this", "You actually thought that was good?! That was the worst part!"
Ohhhhhhh my god why am I wasting my time with this.
Anyway, that episode was a trip. And even though it was thematically over the top and heavy handed compared to the rest of the season, I liked how they tempered it with Kevin's frustrated reactions to the madness of it all.
Somehow the reference to The Godfather grounded it. Strange, but for me it did.
Chance Hale
Member
"We believe the demon Azreal has....."
I can never guess where this show will go.
I can never guess where this show will go.
This is what the show ultimately is.
Even though it is an enjoyable journey so far it is diminished by the fact that in the end it won't have meant a damn thing.
Manipulative feeeeeeels without any kind of deeper meaning.
That simply reflects how ridiculous I think the writing on this show is. Just like the gushing posts I was reacting to in this instance (surely, you would agree those tend to go quite a bit beyond "I like this") reflect, I would imagine, how good those posters thought this week's episode was.
Think I'll just let the Lindelof beeeeeeee!
I actually am addicted to the "normal" storyline and was a little disappointed at first that they went for a dream/purgatory episode, but really, that was more satisfying than Kevin waking up and describing what he saw instead.
Pretty good ep, looking forward to the concluding eps.
Pretty good ep, looking forward to the concluding eps.
Sometimes I wish this forum had functionality like Reddit where you can downvote trolls like Erigu so you don't have to read their vitriol and sarcastic attacks every second or third post. As Don Mattrick might say, We have a product for people who can't get along, it's called Youtube.
Anyways, this episode was my favorite of the last two seasons. I loved how Kevin was given black-and-white "rules" on how to escape the purgatory, only to encounter shades of gray throughout. The scenes with his father contradicting what the bellhop had told him further reinforced that doubt for the audience. I have to say, I was tense throughout. I liked how Kevin eventually embraced his role of "International Assassin" and aced everyone in the room, including "Patty." The well scene was powerful, especially when the little girl asked him if it would help if she "closed her eyes." Patty's tun at the end was completely justified. She acted like someone who knew the
death was finally coming and she was scared for the first time. She was, in essence, a child.
I also like how this episode closed the loop on why some birds come back from the dead and some don't. The Mary scene was also a nice touch. It makes you wonder if Matt truly is full of shit about her waking up.
Anyways, this episode was my favorite of the last two seasons. I loved how Kevin was given black-and-white "rules" on how to escape the purgatory, only to encounter shades of gray throughout. The scenes with his father contradicting what the bellhop had told him further reinforced that doubt for the audience. I have to say, I was tense throughout. I liked how Kevin eventually embraced his role of "International Assassin" and aced everyone in the room, including "Patty." The well scene was powerful, especially when the little girl asked him if it would help if she "closed her eyes." Patty's tun at the end was completely justified. She acted like someone who knew the
true
I also like how this episode closed the loop on why some birds come back from the dead and some don't. The Mary scene was also a nice touch. It makes you wonder if Matt truly is full of shit about her waking up.
Outdoor Miner
Member
I'm no critic, but I have seen many a show in my time and I'll say last night's episode was one of the best for any show. Just an incredible journey.
Fenderputty
Banned
Someone should tell Erigu.
I enjoyed the last episode. I think they did as good of a job as possible depicting this pergatory like scenario considering how much the show flirts with spirituality while (prior to this episode) never diving fully in.
Edit: what the fuck was Mary Jamison doing getting balloons in purgatory with Kevin and patty?
I'm not a troll, and there's an ignore feature if you really can't handle negative criticism of something you like.
Let's not wonder too much why, in the end, Kevin apparently needed a Jarden well Virgil never even mentioned... Virgil went thought all that himself, right? He helped the pillar guy (possibly others?), right? No well, then? And of all people, drugged-out Dad from Australia shows up to tell Kevin about it? Okay.
So you think Patti wasn't scared of death when she killed herself because she already knew of that purgatory-like world? Or that she would go on to haunt Kevin?
You think the idea is that those who stay dead do so because they get splattered by the hotel people?
(do the others have to throw somebody down a magical well in order to come back though?)
Speaking of, while I agree with digitalrelic that the water thing is most likely a reference to Lethe, I can see where jmelons was coming from when he understood that as a reference to "drinking the kool-aid", considering how not-so-thirsty-anymore-Virgil actually "became" the hotel concierge and killed that bird instead of simply losing his memories. Amnesia (and Lethe, by extension) isn't what came to my mind either, upon watching that scene...
I know. Those TV critics sure are something else.
Fenderputty
Banned
Virgil, Wayne and that girl who helps patty that got stoned in season 1 all died. So at least logically they make sense, regardless of purpose. Mary Jamison getting balloons for her future boy doesn't.
You seem super jaded. Being critical is one thing, but you seem like you're watching to find shit to sling.
The show was apparently arguing that Kevin longed for the attachment-free lifestyle of an assassin, hence the role he ended up playing.
It probably could have done a better job at making that point than by presenting that incredibly silly "psychology test" with those clothes in his hotel room... "He chose the assassin outfit!" Erm, yeah, or he picked the only outfit that wasn't a freaking disguise. I mean, come on, in that situation, who would pick something else?
I'm pretty sure Mary died and/or had a miscarriage while Kevin was in the ground. At least, that was my read on it -- Kevin got the balloons when he first showed up there, right?
But yeah, it makes sense from a plot perspective. I just don't get the symbolism. Little things like the priest in the hotel elevator with him, or the guy on the bridge with a slipknot. There had to be something there. Patti being a child and her husband and all that -- I got those symbols/references and after her speech in the well, it was beautiful in retrospect. The rest of the episode not so much.
EDIT: If they are planning to wrap this show up with this season, Mary's death would be a fitting way to end the Matt Jamison character I think.
Fenderputty
Banned
I agree that some symbolism like the priest was too vague, the water and bird thing kinda too. I feel like the noose guy on the bridge will become more clear after we find out what he whispers to kevin.
Man, that would suck if she died while Kevin was buried, but that makes sense.