Ahh alright. That's interesting. I'm still waiting to see how this game pans out. I have this feeling that (as a big time fan of the intricate level design of TP and SS) I'm not going to enjoy this Zelda as much as those two masterpieces. Time will tell of course. I burned out on open world games a long time ago.
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - Preview Thread
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brandonh83
Banned
Yeah. There's a reason (several) why Wind Waker is mid-tier Zelda for me. And I like Wind Waker! But it's lacking in things I look forward to Zelda for. Twilight Princess and Skyward lacked less of these things. Was just voicing a personal concern I guess.
I could think the dungeons are awesome. I hope so and we'll see. Soon. 2 days!
"They did to me" is not an argument. You need to elaborate on why you thought they were labyrinths, otherwise it comes across as an opinion that's about as valid as claiming that Super Mario Bros. 2 is open world.
One might even say objectively wrong
Compare them then. Be specific. How were TP's dungeons superior to MM's dungeons, design-wise? I'm legitimately interested in hearing this.
FloweryMarston
Member
I think considering miyamoto's comments about making mario odyssey hardcore, they probably aren't interested in helping people out in finishing these games.
OrbitalBeard
Member
I am so incredibly in love with Nintendo's overall design philosophy right now. It almost feels like I'm dreaming.
CharminUltra
Member
I think I'm just going to cancel and wait for the NX version.
brandonh83
Banned
I'm not interested in hammering it out but I can simplify it for you: I don't like the dungeons in Wind Waker or Majora. I liked the dungeons in Twilight Princess and Skyward. Like I said, I found them to be fun, varied-- instead of labyrinthine, may I use the word dense? If not, sorry, that's the best I'm giving you. We should agree to disagree and call it a day. If you couldn't tell, Zelda is subjective as hell and what someone sees in something, someone else doesn't.
That's about the long and short of it. If you think it's absolutely absurd that I like those dungeons and found them to be satisfying, I could turn around and say I think it's absurd that you don't, but I'm not pressing you to explain yourself because I realize you have differing thoughts.
I can't remember the exact statistic but according to data collected from Wii owners less than 5% of the owners of Twilight Princess saw the end credits.
Putting this to the difficulty is probable, I got to the credits only because Arbiter's grounds was such a fun temple/boss and I can imagine people quitting if they got bored during the water temple.
WAT!? Didn't know that! Time to investigate wich store broke the streetdate to see if I can get a copy tomorrow!
This is the vibe I'm getting too.
The world is one giant Zelda dungeon. The biggest, hardest, most complex dungeon ever envisioned.
Seems like the individual dungeons and the shrines are more like major areas within the larger "world" dungeon.
Which sounds amazing to me.
I can't wait to play this game, but it will probably be months before I get the chance.
Please no...
Making Zelda open world is one thing. It makes a certain sort of sense; grabs onto part of the franchise's essence and runs with it.
I can get that.
Metroid, on the other hand, has always had confined, tightly designed, and intricately interwoven maps. Something more like a resident evil mansion or a souls game map than an open world, with different gameplay and progression gating of course (like an action platformer crossed with a Zelda). It is like you take Zelda dungeons apart and you strew their innards, in a deliberate but not overly obvious manner, throughout a maze and then you throw cool traversal mechanics into the mix.
Openness would slow that gameplay down, change its flow, etc.
Look, I was just trying to figure out what qualities these dungeons contained that supposedly gave you the impression that they were more "dense" or "varied" than, say, the content within MM's dungeons. If you actually believe they are, then it shouldn't be that hard to clarify why you believe that, no?
If you'd claimed something like "TP's dungeons were aesthetically and thematically more interesting to me than MM's dungeons" instead, I would be a lot more understanding about it because A) that's a topic that subjectively concerns appearance as opposed to something like density and content which is obviously subject to scrutiny, and B) I can certainly see why people would find the aesthetics of TP's dungeons more appealing; it's obvious that a lot of work went into their overall themes and outward uniqueness.
brandonh83
Banned
I don't even remember saying that I didn't think Majora's dungeons were less complex or whatever. If I did, I misspoke. I was just saying that I didn't personally care for/enjoy them as much. But they're a lot better than Wind Wakers'.
edit: going back through the conversation, I don't see where I claimed that Majora's dungeons were lacking in comparison, only that I didn't enjoy them as much.
I feel like that's exactly what I did
I dont know how it can de-emphasize something it has 100+ of and the overworld is littered with
Let me see if I can add something to this MM and TP dungeon talk.
TP's dungeons have a ton more atmosphere and more design concepts to mess around with than MM's dungeons. They're also built more organically to support the framework of the story. The dungeons of TP aren't "temples" in the traditional sense: they're mines, prisons, mansions, a city in the sky. More importantly, they tell you a story through their designs and the activities. They're very clever on top of the unique mechanics.
MM doesn't really go ham in this area. Everyone one of those dungeons feel like a level. It's the culmination of a story arc and the dungeon is the third act. So it's not as self contained as the dungeons in the other 3D Zeldas. They feel a bit more haphazardly design with half baked concepts that aren't as polished as those you see in TP. Take the Snowhead Temple for instance. To scale the tower, you have to roll along the walls and set up ramps to jump to different rooms. This would be fine if the controls weren't so finicky. It's a bitch to control that Goron ball in tight spaces and what's worse is that you have to start over if you fall down which wastes precious time in a game where efficiency is demanded.
I'm not saying it's the worst idea or anything, but it does feel sloppy. The same goes for the egg fetch quest in Great Bay. MM feels a little rushed. It makes sense because the game was made in a little more than year. Compare it to TP's dungeons which are far more intricate and it's easy to see how some people would prefer one over the other.
TP's dungeons have a ton more atmosphere and more design concepts to mess around with than MM's dungeons. They're also built more organically to support the framework of the story. The dungeons of TP aren't "temples" in the traditional sense: they're mines, prisons, mansions, a city in the sky. More importantly, they tell you a story through their designs and the activities. They're very clever on top of the unique mechanics.
MM doesn't really go ham in this area. Everyone one of those dungeons feel like a level. It's the culmination of a story arc and the dungeon is the third act. So it's not as self contained as the dungeons in the other 3D Zeldas. They feel a bit more haphazardly design with half baked concepts that aren't as polished as those you see in TP. Take the Snowhead Temple for instance. To scale the tower, you have to roll along the walls and set up ramps to jump to different rooms. This would be fine if the controls weren't so finicky. It's a bitch to control that Goron ball in tight spaces and what's worse is that you have to start over if you fall down which wastes precious time in a game where efficiency is demanded.
I'm not saying it's the worst idea or anything, but it does feel sloppy. The same goes for the egg fetch quest in Great Bay. MM feels a little rushed. It makes sense because the game was made in a little more than year. Compare it to TP's dungeons which are far more intricate and it's easy to see how some people would prefer one over the other.
brandonh83
Banned
Dude you do not want to go down this road.
Maybe not lol. But I think I can support it.
CharminUltra
Member
Dungeons are cool.
RareFantasy64
Member
There is an interesting video analysis on YouTube of the TP dungeons. It argues they are more streamlined and generally they all follow similar a pattern in contrast to the dungeon designs of other games
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTsgWepH3GY&index=8&list=PLc38fcMFcV_ul4D6OChdWhsNsYY3NA5B2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTsgWepH3GY&index=8&list=PLc38fcMFcV_ul4D6OChdWhsNsYY3NA5B2
This. It's so refreshing to see Nintendo at the top of their game, because quite frankly, a lot of modern games are really boring me out right now. I need Nintendo to keep me invested in video games.
brandonh83
Banned
Well, I agree with your post. I wasn't trying to say that I thought Majora's were bad or not complex enough, but all the dungeons in Twilight Princess and Skyward were more enjoyable to me and impressed me more. I also didn't like feeling rushed through them due to the shitty time mechanic. Maybe that's a factor. But what you said about the gameplay is true, it was frustrating for me sometimes.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Mark Brown's Boss Keys series is sooooooo good!
Saucycarpdog
Member
When the heck does the review embargo lift?
brandonh83
Banned
In about 26 hours, right?
Yeah, TP definitely has great dungeons. Even people who hate it usually agree. This is not a controversial opinion. They're big, fun, and have really cool concepts.
28 and a half hours?
Well, you certainly didn't even try. So much for that "labyrinth" comment I guess.
Moving on, intricate is hardly a quality I'd attribute to TP's dungeons considering how linear the progression actually was. Mark Brown highlights this aspect pretty well - you follow a path to the left and back, then to the right and back, then straight ahead to the end and it's all compounded by equally linear key unlocks. Nothing about the puzzles within each room are particularly challenging or require the kind of lateral thinking and problem solving that MM's dungeons contained. The map structure also wasn't nearly as cohesive and was much more segmented.
brandonh83
Banned
Nah, I still think they're labyrinthine. I just don't feel like I have to break down why. The conversation I was trying to have pertained to the dungeons in Breath of the Wild compared to other dungeons in the series. The Edge review mentioned that they're not as big and I was trying to get at how I felt the dungeons in some of the others were quite in-depth and that I enjoyed that aspect, and I was hoping that the dungeons here don't feel lacking by comparison.
You needn't obsess over how I personally feel about some dungeons in a Zelda game, especially as it has little to do with, again, the discussion I was trying to have in relation to what we do know about the dungeons in this one.
CharminUltra
Member
At least the review thread will make the last 24 hours go faster. DRAMA.
gamerMan
Member
No he didn't. Jeff Gertsmann isn't even down on Zelda. He hasn't played much of it. He said that he didn't want to play because he wants to play it when he gets his own Switch. He said that Zelda needed to change but he didn't expect it to change so much. He said that the changes are fascinating and nothing like any of the 3D Zelda games. He said it is very much the original game.
I think Steve Tilley and guys on the DLC podcast were far more critical. He said that this is the most difficult Zelda and that it's fun to figure out where you have to go due to how the world is structured. Steven Tilley loved the Shrines, physics, combat, secrets, and emergent gameplay.
Jose Sanchez beat the Zelda and said the breaking of weapons gets tedious. It's grindy. The game is very hard for stupid reasons. Steve Tilley said that the weapon degradation is the worst aspect of the game.
Steve's biggest problem with Zelda is he is wished he played it after Horizon. He said it was hard to go from the most beautiful video game and best designed open world game to Zelda, which is still experimenting with Open World design. He said Zelda feels very much like Zelda but Horizon has more depth. He describes it as "jarring." After he beats Zelda, he wants to go back and play Horizon again.
Well, yes, it was a comparison between what BotW seems to be going for and what TP went for. That's why I wanted to squeeze some clarification out of you and hopefully have a debate/discussion going out of it, but it seems you're not as interested in having one - which is fine I suppose, obviously I can't force you to elaborate if you ultimately don't feel like doing so.
brandonh83
Banned
I'm just more interested in talking about these new ones rather than ones before, but then again there's not really much to talk about especially in a non-spoiler thread. Long story short, I was just getting at that I hope they're not lackluster by comparison to what I typically expect from a Zelda dungeon.
Streamlining is actually good thing for me. One of the worst aspects of the classic Zeldas is that you can find yourself wandering around a dungeon for extended periods of time with nothing to do because you don't have a key or something or you missed a room. This happens a lot more in games like LA and LttP. MM and OoT kinda have this in spots but not as often.
It wasn't until WW came out that they really figured out the problem and spent more time making sure the player was always moving forward. You can get stuck in modern Zeldas but you're never lost and you know you're in the right room. You know what to focus on. That's how I feel anyway.
Some people don't like that kind of streamlining. It makes the dungeon feel kind of linear, but I like being able to get to the good stuff right away. Less downtime wandering around is a good thing for me. It's why I don't like the original NES game. Too esoteric lol.
Yup, 6 a.m. EST.
GodParticle
Member
The more I see/read, the more my hype kind of goes down. The dungeon count I read really was a let down considering how big the world supposedly is. I worry this open world is going to be as dull as every other open world game I never finish. Of course I could be overreacting =P
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
It's March 1st already for me, so we get the reviews tomorrow on the 2nd.
Fair enough then. I will admit that TP's dungeons ultimately did exhibit a certain sense of scale despite their linear structure, since the trek from point A to point B did feel decently lengthy considering the amount of rooms employed into the design of each dungeon. You probably won't get that feeling from BotW, all things considered; long dungeon layouts just don't appear to be a part of the game's focus.
Fucking soup man.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
For me too, guess I was thinking like a baby
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah, we'll see. Perhaps they're cool and fun enough to where I don't mind. Not worried about them being bad or something, just not nearly as good as I found Skyward's selection. But lord knows they probably won't be Wind Waker mediocre
I'm so glad (mild similar mechanic game spoilers)
I love MGSV, Far Cry and Souls games
If it's anything like that Switch thread that's been bugging me while I alternately play the Witness, fail to fall asleep, get Zelda hype, scan this thread, etc. ...I'm going to be annoyed, because I'll keep coming back to it because of Zelda and then I'll see shit posts that think they are cleverly disguised shit posts rather than shit posts....
Edit: I'm being even more stupid because I'm not even spoiling myself, reading in depth previews, etc. I'm just hovering in here.
baguetteness
Neo Member
That OT is awesome. So, have we heard anything new about those performance issues while playing in docked mode? Was it related to non finished builds or is it something we should expect from the final game ( maybe with a day one update )?
J
Jpop
Unconfirmed Member
Will I be able to get to get it Tuesday, or will I not that is the question.
Am I fucked?
Am I fucked?
It's not, so don't worry.