Support NeoGAF

[Ascenion]

I picked that because out of all that bullshit it was the only one that actually let you do what you came to do, but I wouldn't advocate for it on that basis alone. I'm sure some people were upset that EDI and her robotic camel toe was no more, but the implications behind destruction when I just spent the past day with the Geth proving it wrong was actually why it doesn't work. I don't think it was meant to say AI couldn't exist again, more like you just doomed everyone to that thing precisely without another cycle to "prevent" it.

IMO taking away your character's ability to reject the kids logic in all endings (the necessity of the Reapers) assumes that they were expecting you to accept the inevitability behind them and their cosmic plan, and as such I agree synthesis makes the most sense as their "best" ending, when you sacrifice yourself to bring forth the ultimate utopia where everyone is the same and Joker and EDI get to give birth to cute biomachine babies. Ugh.

Another point for destroy imo, is that everyone was aware the cost would be high and knew the risks of the war. Not to mention thousands had already sacrificed themselves. Destroy to me was a matter of resolve and keeping in line with the main motivation of the other games. Stop the reapers at any cost, I mean hell you've already basically wiped out the Batarians as it is to simply slow the reapers down. Synthesis is a decision you are making without the consent of the galaxy. Refusal is a decision you are making without the consent of the galaxy, control as well. You said you'd stop the reapers and destroy does that, while not making any truly life changing decisions, and the majority agreed. Besides what constitutes synthetic life isn't exactly clear in Mass Effect, so a retcon could easily fix issues. Plus the reapers aren't really purely synthetic anyway so the fact that you kill all synthetic life off that basis doesn't even make sense.

 

[HK-47]

I dont think that's what BioWare was thinking.

I dont think Bioware was thinking period.

 

[Patryn]

It's not impossible it misses the fiscal year, though at this point it looks like EA has another comically empty one.

Their line-up would basically be sports games, NFS, Battlefront, and tail end sales of Hardline at retail.

I'm curious if the DLC for Inquisition will end up being more akin to Awakenings, i.e. a full blown expansion. I just find it odd that we're five months out from release and have barely heard anything about it beyond that they've started working on it.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Always. Destroy. The. Reapers. It's the only way you can survive.

And I'm pretty sure Joker has a backup of EDI in a pen drive.


Synthesis intended to be the best ending is weird since it was Saren's speech in ME1 and Shepard kinda proved him wrong. If Synthesis is right, Saren was right all along.

 

[DOWN]

I'm working my way through Awakening, before hitting DA2 and finally Inquisition for the first time.

Origins graphics are excruciating. Long live Frostbite (and gimme dat Mirror's Edge 2).

 

[Ralemont]

Most of the ending is still a sticking point thematically, in my opinion.

I don't really see how. Let's put it this way: if Destroy only destroys the Reapers, is there any thematic contradiction in the game left? The main point as I see it is the Catalyst saying synthetics and organics can't get along after all can contradict Rannoch and EDI. But if you can destroy the Reapers without killing the other synthetics then this serves as both a total victory and ultimate refutation of the that philosophical belief. Suddenly you have a pretty diverse set of choices that can express a pretty robust amount of role-playing. After all, there are still going to be playthroughs that do express a hopelessness of peace, and for such playthroughs Control or Synthesis might fit the character more.

 

[inky]

Always. Destroy. The. Reapers. It's the only way you can survive.

And I'm pretty sure Joker has a backup of EDI in a pen drive.


Synthesis intended to be the best ending is weird since it was Saren's speech in ME1 and Shepard kinda proved him wrong. If Synthesis is right, Saren was right all along.

Well, there is a reason that we roll our eyes at Bioware, but tbf I don't think it was exactly the same thing. Saren accepted indoctrinatation because he thought the Reapers would give him a chance if he cooperated. He became a puppet hoping to be spared. The IM thought he would get power out of it. The idea behind synthesis (as far as I understand) is not indoctrination, but merging with machines while keepng your autonomy to prevent destruction. It's undercooked, arbitrary and dumb, but at least I think there's a difference.

I think another argument for it as intended best ending is the simple color coding and visual placement. I know it sounds dumb and simplistic, but I wouldn't put it past Bioware to follow that logic.

 

[The Artisan]

Incorrect. That ending would be destroy, with Shepard's survival which originally required 5,000+ EMS. I still advocate destroy simply because it's the only permanent solution imo and the most common ending among all EMS levels. It is either the only one or the "best" one based of EMS. Every other ending, Reapers aren't stopped, simply gone for the moment. Besides to the best of my knowledge who is to say the Geth can't be revived somehow, or EDI since she's what I've noticed most people cry over.

are you certain? I could be mistaken but I thought destroy ws the only option with a low ems and control was the only option with low ems and if you saved the collector base, and that synthesis is unlocked with 5000+ ems

 

[Maledict]

Destroy was unlocked with the lowest EMS if you were renegade, BUT to get the Shepherd survives scenes at the end (name not put up on the wall, N7 armour breathing at the end) you needed 5000 EMS which was the highest requirement possible.

synthesis required 4000 EMS.

 

[Ralemont]

are you certain? I could be mistaken but I thought destroy ws the only option with a low ems and control was the only option with low ems and if you saved the collector base, and that synthesis is unlocked with 5000+ ems

You're right that Control is the only option at low-EMS if you saved the Collector Base, but High-EMS Destroy had the highest ending requirement, with Synthesis being the hardest "unique" ending choice to unlock.

In other words, Low-EMS Destroy/Control ---> Synthesis ----> High-EMS Destroy, with High-EMS Control lurking somewhere around Synthesis (I think).

 

[Patryn]

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 and I just hit the Kai Leng introduction.

Holy shit is he just the worst character ever. I, of course, remembered him being bad but I had forgotten just how terrible he was. I would love to hear the story of how his character developed.

I'd almost be tempted to argue that Leng is worse than the ending, that's how fucking terrible he is.

 

[Poodlestrike]

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 and I just hit the Kai Leng introduction.

Holy shit is he just the worst character ever. I, of course, remembered him being bad but I had forgotten just he terrible he was. I would love to hear the story of how his character developed.

I'd almost be tempted to argue that Leng is worse than the ending, that's how fucking terrible he is.

He's pretty awful, but that just makes the bit where you punch him to death that much sweeter.

 

[Patryn]

He's pretty awful, but that just makes the bit where you punch him to death that much sweeter.

Gah. That reminds me the achievement you get for finally killing his punk ass has a description naming him as "an old adversary."

For a guy you meet all of three times.

 

[Sulik2]

Gah. That reminds me the achievement you get for finally killing his punk ass has a description naming him as "an old adversary."

For a guy you meet all of three times.

That was referring to Anderson I think. He shotgunned Leng's legs off in one of the books.

 

[Flandy]

being that it is only unlocked after the highest ems, i'd say you're right. i know they said that there's no canon ending or whatever but it seemed to me like they wanted this ending to be the most preferred by players.

I think the destroy ending is the canon ending. Having the highest EMS also changes the destroy ending. In the Destroy ending you get a post credits scene where you see Shepard is still alive. This is only seen in the destroy ending and it only unlocks once you reach the highest tier of EMS.

Spoiler

Then again I'd have preferred the Indoctrination Theory over the ending we got so what do I know?

 

[Wulfram]

That was referring to Anderson I think. He shotgunned Leng's legs off in one of the books.

And Leng ate his cereal

 

[Ascenion]

are you certain? I could be mistaken but I thought destroy ws the only option with a low ems and control was the only option with low ems and if you saved the collector base, and that synthesis is unlocked with 5000+ ems

Yeah I'm positive, because I've had enough for synthesis before but when I picked destroy didn't get the Shepard breath "perfect ending". Destroy is the lowest EMS ending as well as the perfect 5000+ ending.

 

[The Artisan]

You're right that Control is the only option at low-EMS if you saved the Collector Base, but High-EMS Destroy had the highest ending requirement, with Synthesis being the hardest "unique" ending choice to unlock.

In other words, Low-EMS Destroy/Control ---> Synthesis ----> High-EMS Destroy, with High-EMS Control lurking somewhere around Synthesis (I think).

gotcha. I forgot that destroy had different outcomes at different ems levels.

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 and I just hit the Kai Leng introduction.

Holy shit is he just the worst character ever. I, of course, remembered him being bad but I had forgotten just how terrible he was. I would love to hear the story of how his character developed.

I'd almost be tempted to argue that Leng is worse than the ending, that's how fucking terrible he is.

I bet you didn't know kai leng was voiced & mocapped by troy baker at the time.

I sure as hell didn't know until this thread or one of the ME threads here.

I think the destroy ending is the canon ending. Having the highest EMS also changes the destroy ending. In the Destroy ending you get a post credits scene where you see Shepard is still alive. This is only seen in the destroy ending and it only unlocks once you reach the highest tier of EMS.

Spoiler

Then again I'd have preferred the Indoctrination Theory over the ending we got so what do I know?

it would make sense to me that destroy is canon, but according to this tweet someone posted earlier...

Yeah I'm positive, because I've had enough for synthesis before but when I picked destroy didn't get the Shepard breath "perfect ending". Destroy is the lowest EMS ending as well as the perfect 5000+ ending.

right. I forgot that at different stages of ems, you get different outcomes with destroy. so with the lowest ems & destroying the collector base, you can choose only destroy and it kills pretty much everyone. and with the highest ems, you get the best destroy

Spoiler

with shepard's last breath.

 

[Maledict]

I still think that ME4 wont be set immediately after ME3 - its going to be the "pathfinder" game where you're exploring new areas as part of a project to escape the Reapers. Given everything that happened after ME3s ending, that seems to be the best way around it for now.

Maybe down the line they will revisit i and decide on a cannon ending, but right now if I were them I'd just want to avoid everything about the ending in every way possible.

 

[Wulfram]

Yeah I'm positive, because I've had enough for synthesis before but when I picked destroy didn't get the Shepard breath "perfect ending". Destroy is the lowest EMS ending as well as the perfect 5000+ ending.

Yeah. Shepard breathing was the ending that couldn't be achieved without Multiplayer

 

[Patryn]

I bet you didn't know kai leng was voiced & mocapped by troy baker at the time.

I sure as hell didn't know until this thread or one of the ME threads here.

I knew the voice part, as Troy Baker is fairly recognizable. I didn't know the mocap bit.

Still doesn't change that he's one of the worst characters ever, and possibly the worst part of Mass Effect 3.

 

[Bisnic]

I still think that ME4 wont be set immediately after ME3 - its going to be the "pathfinder" game where you're exploring new areas as part of a project to escape the Reapers. Given everything that happened after ME3s ending, that seems to be the best way around it for now.

Maybe down the line they will revisit i and decide on a cannon ending, but right now if I were them I'd just want to avoid everything about the ending in every way possible.

No no, don't make the Reapers relevant again. We've seen enough of them already.

Make "ME4" either a complete reboot, where Shepard's story never happened, or make it a sequel set years later after ME3. And by that, I don't mean only 10 years, that'll give them an excuse to show all past squadmates/characters yet again. No... make it 100+ years so the only people we risk seeing again are Krogans and Asaris.

Spoiler

I know some/most want to see Garrus again, but...

 

[Patryn]

No no, don't make the Reapers relevant again. We've seen enough of them already.

Make "ME4" either a complete reboot, where Shepard's story never happened, or make it a sequel set years later after ME3. And by that, I don't mean only 10 years, that'll give them an excuse to show all past squadmates/characters yet again. No... make it 100+ years so the only people we risk seeing again are Krogans and Asaris.

Spoiler

I know some/most want to see Garrus again, but...

The Pathfinder story doesn't really need to feature the Reapers except in explaining why they're searching outside the known Relay network. Maybe you get a glimpse in the beginning, but that's it.

I would be shocked if you fight them in any way.

 

[prag16]

The Pathfinder story doesn't really need to feature the Reapers except in explaining why they're searching outside the known Relay network. Maybe you get a glimpse in the beginning, but that's it.

I would be shocked if you fight them in any way.

This. The Pathfinder premise may take place somewhat in parallel to the existing trilogy, while still almost completely sidestepping the Reapers (and sidestepping having to canonize any particular ending).

And if we end up in way off the relay network, or even in another galaxy, perhaps the effects of the crucible won't even matter or have an effect anyway.

 

[inky]

Just reboot the damn universe.

 

[Caboose]

I just don't want them to look at Inquisition's huge environments with nothing interesting to do in them and go "there, that's it!".

 

[The Artisan]

I knew the voice part, as Troy Baker is fairly recognizable. I didn't know the mocap bit.

Still doesn't change that he's one of the worst characters ever, and possibly the worst part of Mass Effect 3.

I shouldn't have said mocap - they probably didn't do mocap at all for ME, I probably just said that because most of baker's roles i'm familar with did mocap.

Just reboot the damn universe.

no thanks.

 

[Plasma]

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 and I just hit the Kai Leng introduction.

Holy shit is he just the worst character ever. I, of course, remembered him being bad but I had forgotten just how terrible he was. I would love to hear the story of how his character developed.

I'd almost be tempted to argue that Leng is worse than the ending, that's how fucking terrible he is.

It's a real shame because in his first book appearance (not the one he ate cereal in) he's kind of a badass, I remembered be pretty excited when I heard he was going to be in ME3.

 

[Valus]

I knew the voice part, as Troy Baker is fairly recognizable. I didn't know the mocap bit.

Still doesn't change that he's one of the worst characters ever, and possibly the worst part of Mass Effect 3.

You're forgetting something.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'm okay with either a reboot or a continuation right after the events of ME3 (but this one is problematic due to multiple endings and Shepard/crew members being around). Far future sounds like the most reasonable option.

But I'd still be hyped to play as Shepard again, probably because I only played Mass Effect for the first time some months ago and I'm still attached to the characters. But I know it won't happen.

 

[Ralemont]

You're forgetting something.

You can avoid Allers, though.

 

[Astrates]

You can avoid Allers, though.

God she was annoying. What a tremendously poor decision.

 

[Patryn]

You're forgetting something.

Kai Leng was a million times worse. Like, Allers isn't even in the same universe compared to Leng's shittiness.

I'd argue Leng is one of the worst characters in a video game ever, that's how much I hate the character.

 

[Ralemont]

I'd argue Leng is one of the worst characters in a video game ever, that's how much I hate the character.

I don't particularly like Leng, but that seems way over the top. He's just a midboss, and he hardly speaks which is a plus. I can name 230987 JRPG characters that are worse.

 

[prag16]

You're forgetting something.

You can avoid Allers, though.

God she was annoying. What a tremendously poor decision.

I don't get why so many people were so upset by this. And it led to a ton of misogynistic bullshit (not sure if that happened here; I'd hope not... didn't hang out here as much back then).

My reaction was honestly, "Oh, cool, I remember her from IGN, wow they didn't do a great job on that character model; butchered her even worse than Yvonne Strahovski."

And then that was about it. I was surprised to see all the rage, frankly. Kai Leng is MUCH worse, order(s) of magnitude worse, even.

 

[Ushojax]

I don't particularly like Leng, but that seems way over the top. He's just a midboss, and he hardly speaks which is a plus. I can name 230987 JRPG characters that are worse.

People hate Kai Leng because the game behaves as if the player knows who he is. To most people he was some random douche given undue prominence.

Also the part with him and Thane was laughably executed.

 

[inky]

Kai Leng was a million times worse. Like, Allers isn't even in the same universe compared to Leng's shittiness.

I'd argue Leng is one of the worst characters in a video game ever, that's how much I hate the character.

Kinda hard to compare like that. I hated them both, but Chobot shittiness has more to do with non-game reasons for me, while Leng's is completely due to in-game reasons.

Leng is a crap, useless character that brought down an already flawed game; it's a characterization failure, but Chobot's inclusion is actually kind of offensive. I did her arc in game and other than the obvious irony in her role, it was just meh.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I also don't get the hate on Allers and Leng. Both are just uninteresting characters.. They don't do much difference in my gameplay to make me hate them.

 

[Ralemont]

People hate Kai Leng because the game behaves as if the player knows who he is. To most people he was some random douche given undue prominence.

Also the part with him and Thane was laughably executed.

I know why people don't like him, I simply disagree that it justifies the extent of the hatred.

Not that anyone needs to be rational in their hatred of a video game character. Sometimes a character will just bug the shit out of you.

 

[The Artisan]

People hate Kai Leng because the game behaves as if the player knows who he is. To most people he was some random douche given undue prominence.

I think they wanted people to see him as a rival to shepard.

 

[Patryn]

I think they wanted people to see him as a rival to shepard.

I think you're right, which is one of the major problems with the character. He kind of gets the Poochie treatment where everyone keeps talking about him as a BIG DEAL and he's portrayed as this "rival", but nothing he does justifies how people talk about him.

I mean, this is what he does in my game:

- Utterly fails to kill any of the Citadel Council. The only reason he manages to kill Thane is because the game forces Shepard to lose all intelligence and stand around gawking.
- "Beats" Shepard on Thessia, but only through the use of plot armor and, once again, the game forcing Shepard to be an idiot
- Sends a whiny e-mail
- Gets his ass beat down in a thoroughly underwhelming boss fight. Took me about 30 seconds as an Engineer.

There is basically zero indication that he's at all competent.

 

[wolfhowwl]

Kai Leng was a million times worse. Like, Allers isn't even in the same universe compared to Leng's shittiness.

I'd argue Leng is one of the worst characters in a video game ever, that's how much I hate the character.

The game would have been better if he was replaced by a random Cerberus goon (perhaps in an ideal world Miranda would have had his role). Also I don't like it when games lean on extended media. Leave that crap in the comics, books, whatever, the game should be a stand-alone product.

As far as worse character ever, I remember Matriarch Benezia having some terrible, terrible stuff and that had the added awfulness of her daughter being there. Then again there was never anything with her killing any liked characters or "beating" the player to set people off.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I don't get why so many people were so upset by this. And it led to a ton of misogynistic bullshit (not sure if that happened here; I'd hope not... didn't hang out here as much back then).

My reaction was honestly, "Oh, cool, I remember her from IGN, wow they didn't do a great job on that character model; butchered her even worse than Yvonne Strahovski."

And then that was about it. I was surprised to see all the rage, frankly. Kai Leng is MUCH worse, order(s) of magnitude worse, even.

The issue people had with Chobot is that people also saw it as a blatant attempt to buy IGN's review. The role Allers filled would have been perfectly suited for Emily Wong.

There was absolutely no reason for Allers to exist her to replace Emily Wong. It was just dumb and stupid and seemed very "EA-like"

 

[Ganzlinger]

The game would have been better if he was replaced by a random Cerberus goon (perhaps in an ideal world Miranda would have had his role). Also I don't like it when games lean on extended media. Leave that crap in the comics, books, whatever, the game should be a stand-alone product.

As far as worse character ever, I remember Matriarch Benezia having some terrible, terrible stuff and that had the added awfulness of her daughter being there. Then again there was never anything with her killing any liked characters or "beating" the player to set people off.

"No light? They always said there would be a light" lol

And yeah, Miranda replacing Leng and going against Shepard after ME2 would have been nice.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I think you're right, which is one of the major problems with the character. He kind of gets the Poochie treatment where everyone keeps talking about him as a BIG DEAL and he's portrayed as this "rival", but nothing he does justifies how people talk about him.

I mean, this is what he does in my game:

- Utterly fails to kill any of the Citadel Council. The only reason he manages to kill Thane is because the game forces Shepard to lose all intelligence and stand around gawking.
- "Beats" Shepard on Thessia, but only through the use of plot armor and, once again, the game forcing Shepard to be an idiot
- Sends a whiny e-mail
- Gets his ass beat down in a thoroughly underwhelming boss fight. Took me about 30 seconds as an Engineer.

There is basically zero indication that he's at all competent.

yeah, the only time he gets the upperhand is when the game takes control away from the player. I hated Kai Ling so much.

 

[inky]

The issue people had with Chobot is that people also saw it as a blatant attempt to buy IGN's review. The role Allers filled would have been perfectly suited for Emily Wong.

There was absolutely no reason for Allers to exist her to replace Emily Wong. It was just dumb and stupid and seemed very "EA-like"

I think a lot of people forget that Mass Effect 3's release/review came at the same time IGN had a mysterious site/review format redesign in which Mass Effect 3 ads were prominently displayed all throughout. There's even that famous gif going around. And heck, I'm not even accusing them buying a review, which they probably didn't. It just looks muddy.

It wasn't even the same kind of fanservice move like putting Felicia Day in Dragon Age was. It's more akin to product placement except it was probably EA who paid to have it, which is doubly weird. And if the game turned out excellent people probably wouldn't care, but when you spend your already limited development time and prowess in putting something as inconsequential as Chobot in it while half assing more important things it makes it even more disgusting.

And yeah, Miranda replacing Leng and going against Shepard after ME2 would have been nice.

Miranda was such a wasted opportunity. Her relationship and back and forth with Cerberus and you could've made her arc something special, but in the end she was never elevated from being window dressing and her missions were among the most boring. At least she wasn't as bland as Jacob I guess (of which I totally had to google his name because I forgot about it. True story.)

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Miranda was such a wasted opportunity. Her relationship and back and forth with Cerberus and you could've made her arc something special, but in the end she was never elevated from being window dressing and her missions were among the most boring. At least she wasn't as bland as Jacob I guess (of which I totally had to google his name because I forgot about it. True story.)

You can thank the suicide mission for that.

While the suicide mission was great for ME2 and added an emotional investment in the game, I'd say in hindsight it was a bad decision, because it really limited what they could do with the ME2 characters for ME3. Miranda would never be able to have the size of the role you mentioned because of that purpose.

 

[Patryn]

You can thank the suicide mission for that.

While the suicide mission was great for ME2 and added an emotional investment in the game, I'd say in hindsight it was a bad decision, because it really limited what they could do with the ME2 characters for ME3. Miranda would never be able to have the size of the role you mentioned because of that purpose.

They should have tabled it and done it for ME3. At that point they could just go buck wild killing people left and right, and it would have leant the ending a lot more weight.

 

[Ganzlinger]

ME2 support characters were really great. I pretty much liked everyone and I was really bummed that they couldn't have a major role in ME3 (except Garrus and Tali).

 

[EatChildren]

You can thank the suicide mission for that.

While the suicide mission was great for ME2 and added an emotional investment in the game, I'd say in hindsight it was a bad decision, because it really limited what they could do with the ME2 characters for ME3. Miranda would never be able to have the size of the role you mentioned because of that purpose.

I'm pretty sure they've gone on record to state that they gave borderline zero foresight to the implications of the suicide mission on a third game and just did it because it was cool.

Which it was, if in need of broader scope, but yeah. I distinctly remember before Mass Effect 3 was announced stewing over the logistics behind having such a massive quantity of the cast potentially dead and the mess that would cause.