afaik AI is also meant to work as "lifeboat" program, way to preserve races of Milky Way in case Reapers win the war. So it's little bit column A and column B.
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The Mass Effect Community Thread
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afaik AI is also meant to work as "lifeboat" program, way to preserve races of Milky Way in case Reapers win the war. So it's little bit column A and column B.
prag16
Banned
As multiple people have already explained, it's not remotely the same thing.
I don't get why so many people are so intent on defending this. It's pretty much indefensible barring a damn good explanation when the game launches.
But that's okay. I can suspend disbelief enough. It won't ruin the game for me by any stretch. They had to do it to escape the trilogy's baggage. But that doesn't mean people who point out the absurdity should be shit on of the "reason" is indeed just "cuz we can". Figuring a way to make the Reapers the reason they left would also have some issues, but at least makes sense. We'll see exactly how they handle it.
See, they've never actually said this. Sure it would are some sense. But unless my memory is severely failing me I think if anything they have indicated that the Reapers have nothing to do with it.
It might still have been an incentive after the attack on the Citadel in ME1. Maybe not the main "selling" point of the project, but who knows really... we'll probably have to wait for the game to launch.
If Reaper War has nothing to do with starting AI [funding, materials and time required to build Arks and Nexus, crews, volunteers...] then it's just silly.
"We are facing this extinction level incident... well war and this insanely expensive and resource intensive program with goal of reaching another Galaxy has nothing to do with that. This program is just for funsies because we totally can waste all these resources on exploration trip"
No way they are ignoring Reaper threat and how it, logically would at least, play into something like Andromeda Initiative? Ships are even called Arks.
prag16
Banned
If I have time later I'll try to find the quote I'm thinking of (the one that indicates the Reapers had nothing to do with AI). But yeah I hear ya and I agree.
prag16
Banned
I couldn't find what I was thinking of. But did find this shinobi thread from N7 day: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1309671
"Unaware of the Reaper threat..."
Founded in 2176 (seven years BEFORE Sovereign shows up).
Aaryn not talking, eh. Hopefully they have something decent for us. Even if they don't it'll be a great game. Don't think that's in question at least. I could swear there was a quote directly from Bioware claiming no Reaper factor but as I said, can't find it.
They are really going out of their way to ignore original trilogy and Reapers, aren't they?
Heckler456
Banned
The Columbus expedition numbered ~80 members, while Spain's population was 8240000 and the world's population was 500000000 (both estimates of course). That's 0.000970873% and 0.00000016% respectively.
In the Mass Effect universe, there exist 11.4 billion people on Earth alone. With 20.000 passengers on the human ark, that's 0.000175%.
Now, I'm inclined to compare it to Spain's number (in which case it's smaller) seeing as how it's Spain undertaking the mission, while "humanity" seems like one entity in the Mass Effect universe. But regardless of whether or not you're inclined to one or the other, the fact remains that 0.000175% of your population is an exceedingly smaller portion of it.
And in terms of the resources required... I really don't think you guys comprehend the scope of resources that are out there in space. Again, when you have magic like "the Mass Effect", AI's, VI's, and robots, the resources required start becoming profoundly easy to gather with the only requirement being something akin to where Cerberus got their money from. (being angel investors and front companies) A single resource-rich asteroid can contain multiples of known reserves of whatever resource on earth.
Anyway, the bottom line is: for science fiction / space opera fans, y'all sure are some uninventive people. You really can't conceive of a world where 0.0001% of the population might want to go to another galaxy?
Mass Effect never pretended to be hard science fiction, and books like Revelation Space have their inconsistencies too. Every piece of science fiction has, really.
In the Mass Effect universe, there exist 11.4 billion people on Earth alone. With 20.000 passengers on the human ark, that's 0.000175%.
Now, I'm inclined to compare it to Spain's number (in which case it's smaller) seeing as how it's Spain undertaking the mission, while "humanity" seems like one entity in the Mass Effect universe. But regardless of whether or not you're inclined to one or the other, the fact remains that 0.000175% of your population is an exceedingly smaller portion of it.
And in terms of the resources required... I really don't think you guys comprehend the scope of resources that are out there in space. Again, when you have magic like "the Mass Effect", AI's, VI's, and robots, the resources required start becoming profoundly easy to gather with the only requirement being something akin to where Cerberus got their money from. (being angel investors and front companies) A single resource-rich asteroid can contain multiples of known reserves of whatever resource on earth.
Anyway, the bottom line is: for science fiction / space opera fans, y'all sure are some uninventive people. You really can't conceive of a world where 0.0001% of the population might want to go to another galaxy?
Mass Effect never pretended to be hard science fiction, and books like Revelation Space have their inconsistencies too. Every piece of science fiction has, really.
When you have something like N7 involved in your small space exploration project we aren't talking about some hobby project among few private corporations. You are involving top elite program of Alliance Military which most likely means whole Alliance and/or Alliance Military is pouring in money and resources. I know they can do what the fuck they want in their fictional universe and there is nothing inherently bad with it. I just like it when there is logic and structure to fictional universes and if MEA is only about exploration then there is logic hole because it means game ignores key point of original trilogy.
I know MEA is basically IP reboot, but they have made point about having a lot references etc. to original trilogy so not involving key point from it would be weird.
Heckler456
Banned
Actually, we don't know that. All we know is that Alec Ryder was once N7, and that he was "eventually recruited into the role of Pathfinder". We don't know if the actual N7 program or the alliance is in any way involved. We do know that "Jien Garson", seemingly a civilian, is responsible for the creation of the initiative though.
No, I can't really. It doesn't make any logical sense at all given the backstory and setting.
A good story stays true to its own internal logic. Yes, the Mass Effect and the way everything around it works is clearly space magic - all sci-fi has some element of that. But humanity is still humanity, and there's absolutely no explanation for why, a mere **26** years after we first encounter alien life, we are suddenly willing and capable to build a trans-galactic space ship with all that entails. It's beyond ludicrous, and completely breaks the narrative. Not only is the idea we would have the resources and technology to do this insane, but why anyone would ever bother.
The Andromeda Initiative (as explained so far) makes zero sense in the universe. That's why it's quite jarring for a lot of people, whilst at the same time we're happy with the idea someone can create a mini-black hole with their mind. It's not logically consistent with Mass Effect.
A good story stays true to its own internal logic. Yes, the Mass Effect and the way everything around it works is clearly space magic - all sci-fi has some element of that. But humanity is still humanity, and there's absolutely no explanation for why, a mere **26** years after we first encounter alien life, we are suddenly willing and capable to build a trans-galactic space ship with all that entails. It's beyond ludicrous, and completely breaks the narrative. Not only is the idea we would have the resources and technology to do this insane, but why anyone would ever bother.
The Andromeda Initiative (as explained so far) makes zero sense in the universe. That's why it's quite jarring for a lot of people, whilst at the same time we're happy with the idea someone can create a mini-black hole with their mind. It's not logically consistent with Mass Effect.
VenomousCoffee
Member
Please link to a post that successfully does this. I haven't seen one, but I don't read every thread, every day. Thanks!
Poodlestrike
Banned
Except you haven't actually established why it's implausible given what we know about the setting; very large population + enormous manufacturing capacity = lots of people doing lots of stuff that costs lots of money, even if some (such as yourself) would call them nuts. It comes off as weird kneejerk issues.
Heckler456
Banned
I'm sorry, but I've given plenty of reasoning as to why it's plausible, and why your reasoning is flawed. You can't just say "no explanations can be given" when I and others have given plenty. At this point, it sounds to me like you just want to stubbornly be right for the sake of being right.
A) this is all personal opinions stuff, so no-one can be 'right'.
B) your reasons are just not buyable for some of us, clearly. Comparing to Spain and Columbus doesn't make any sense at all - Columbus knew the earth was round, knew that if you went west far enough you'd hit the Far East and the lucrative trade routes there. It wasn't a one way journey into the unknown, he did it because he wanted to become rich.
C) Technology wise, up until the andromeda initiative is revealed there's absolutely no indication that any species has the capability to do trans galactic flight. So now we aren't just going from a situation where after 27 years humanity is a galactic superpower, we're in a scenario where after 21 years since first meeting alien life humanity hasn't just developed new tech none of the races whove been around for hundreds of years have, but also it's able to persuade these species to join up on this crazy, lunatic endevour.
D) resources are important. Mass Effect isn't post scarcity. Wars are still fought over planets, colonies still cost the earth yet look like trash. The Andromeda Iniative is basically building a new citedall, plus four ark ships, and all of them can sustain a 600 year galactic flight. This isn't Elon Musk funding a rocket that might go to the moon one day, this is him finding a faster than light space ship. Next year.
Hell, look at the resources that were needed just to construct the crucible. The andromeda iniative is far larger in scope, and yet somehow no only did no-one notice it, but it was done by private funding? From a species that didn't even known alien life existed 21 years ago?
B) your reasons are just not buyable for some of us, clearly. Comparing to Spain and Columbus doesn't make any sense at all - Columbus knew the earth was round, knew that if you went west far enough you'd hit the Far East and the lucrative trade routes there. It wasn't a one way journey into the unknown, he did it because he wanted to become rich.
C) Technology wise, up until the andromeda initiative is revealed there's absolutely no indication that any species has the capability to do trans galactic flight. So now we aren't just going from a situation where after 27 years humanity is a galactic superpower, we're in a scenario where after 21 years since first meeting alien life humanity hasn't just developed new tech none of the races whove been around for hundreds of years have, but also it's able to persuade these species to join up on this crazy, lunatic endevour.
D) resources are important. Mass Effect isn't post scarcity. Wars are still fought over planets, colonies still cost the earth yet look like trash. The Andromeda Iniative is basically building a new citedall, plus four ark ships, and all of them can sustain a 600 year galactic flight. This isn't Elon Musk funding a rocket that might go to the moon one day, this is him finding a faster than light space ship. Next year.
Hell, look at the resources that were needed just to construct the crucible. The andromeda iniative is far larger in scope, and yet somehow no only did no-one notice it, but it was done by private funding? From a species that didn't even known alien life existed 21 years ago?
It was started as theory and launched towards Andromeda as fully realized program in just ~9 years.
"Founded in 2176 and launched in 2185, the Andromeda Initiative is a civilian, multi-species project created to send scientists, explorers and colonists on a one-way trip to settle in the Andromeda Galaxy."
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309671&page=1
Insane achievement when you think about it.
Heckler456
Banned
That wasn't my only reasoning. You skipped over all the rest of my reasoning last time around, and changed subject to your "my only problem is population" thing, which is noticeably absent from this post.
And again, I keep having to repeat this very simple fact: When you're talking numbers in the billions, statistical probability rears its head. If you can't conceive of the notion that a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of a population might be interested in other things than monetary gain, then I mean... what's the issue really?
As I've said before, it's improbable, but not implausible. Like most things that happen in the Mass Effect universe, if not all science fiction. (ever seen the list of inconsistencies in Star Trek?) What are the odds that we could actually defeat an ancient alien race that has been evolving for literal eons? Very low, I would say. But if we don't, you don't have a story. Same goes for the exact timing of the reaper attacks. What are the odds that the reapers attack a couple of decades after humanity join the galactic civilization when the asari have been around for 2000 years?
And by the way, given exponential technological advancement (let alone magical space artifact that jumps our technological level ahead by 200 years), this is absolutely possible. Remember, in 1914, France was still doing cavalry charges. By 1948, we'd be dropping atomic bombs from planes. And let me reiterate, that's without a magical knowledge imparting monolith.
Improbable? Sure. Not implausible.
The crucible was built over a span of 1-2 months. This is its size. It was also built in secret, so they hardly had the resources of all species combined.
Also, they aren't building a new citadel. They've said it's based on its technology, but it's very clearly much smaller. For example, the citadel's population is 13 million, while the total number of people going on the AI is clearly well under half a million. Which, in terms of pure size, puts it well under what the crucible is compared to the citadel. And remember, the crucible was something they only just found out about too. You really can't conceive of them building something far smaller in scope than the crucible in like 30-40 times the amount of time?
My guess would be that there was some "hidden tech" in the mars beacon, and that the technology needed for trans-galactic travel is based on that. We know it's possible for species to hold back information imparted by those beacons, seeing as how the Asari have done the same in the original trilogy.
Noticed a scale discrepancy of the Nexus in the Orientation Briefing videos. The blueprints show the Nexus about 17.5km or more in relation to the 1.5km Arkships.
However, when cutting to the cinematic of the Arkships docking to the station, it becomes apparent the Nexus is much larger, seemingly around 33km. I have kept the smaller size for the main ship comparison graphic, but will update it to the more massive size if/when Bioware shares more info.
http://jeffmcdowalldesign.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-Andromeda-Nexus-Size-Comparison-649811048
Heckler456
Banned
Good find. While it's definitely longer than I would have imagined it compared to the crucible, in terms of pure square-footage, it's evidently still much smaller than the citadel. I still don't find it implausible whatsoever that they could have built something 3 times longer in 30-40 times the amount of time.
Although... This doesn't seem to be official art? He says they're saying the nexus station being 17.5 km in the briefing.
Although... This doesn't seem to be official art? He says they're saying the nexus station being 17.5 km in the briefing.
He is just using given scales. Smaller one is from given measurements, but bigger one is from cinematic where you see Nexus dwarfing Ark big time and then just calculated measurements with assumption that Ark is stated 1.5 km. Tempest also is surprisingly small, it's sports car with 2 seats where Normandy Mark 2 is SUV.
prag16
Banned
It's very implausible. Very very very implausible. What you might be looking for is "not impossible".
I think we've hit the "agree to disagree" barrier here. Whatever they do to explain it I'll go with it and shrug it off because I'm super pumped for the game. But I just can't agree with this alleged plausibility, not even by Mass Effect logic.
I think we've hit the "agree to disagree" barrier here. Whatever they do to explain it I'll go with it and shrug it off because I'm super pumped for the game. But I just can't agree with this alleged plausibility, not even by Mass Effect logic.
Heckler456
Banned
Yeah, I do mean "not impossible".
As to you not agreeing, I find it to be very strange in that case that people are drawing the line at this particular point, when Mass Effect has been guilty of far greater offenses in terms of what is probable.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Well, the Tempest is a scout ship, the SR2 was an oversized Frigate.
We've explained why, but you just seem to take it as a personal insult and have a go at people for disagreeing with your personal opinions... ;-(
There is a fundamental difference between not possible stuff related to magic science fiction, and simple behaviour and population curve numbers. For some people, I'm happy with portable black holes (because magic makes them), but not ridiculous time lines and impossible colony ships - because the Mass Effect doesn't create people, or matter, from thin air, nor does it create technology, nor does it explain how a private investor affords this, nor why all the species that only met humanity **21 years ago** are willing to sign up on a one way voyage pointlessly.
Everyone has their own line in the sand about what they can and cannot swallow. Not sure why you find it so hard that people think this one is weird.
Heckler456
Banned
You seem to keep harping on about "personal opinions", and yet you can't seem to entertain the notion that other people might find the idea of going to another galaxy instead of exploring more of their own attractive. Not only that, but you apparently find the idea that the writers of ME:A thinking up that type of person to be so far beyond belief as to be completely impossible. I mean, come on now huh.
And again, I keep having to repeat myself here, because you apparently keep ignoring what I'm saying. The timeline is not impossible. In the real world, I've given examples of large changes happening in small amounts of time (industrial revolution, ww1 - ww2), and similar projects in the ME universe being successful in far smaller amounts of time (the crucible).
And populations are meaningless when you have the advent of AI and robots presumably able to create other robots. How can you not at least agree to concede on that matter? No, apparently you're completely right, and all I'm saying is unintelligible gobbledygook.
And why is "Mass Effect" magic, but "our technology jumped 200 years when we discovered the beacon" not magic? That's what enables the timeline, you know? The fact that the day they found the beacon they weren't a 2150 era civilization anymore, but a 2350 era civilization.
Anyway, I've said far too much stuff that you've straight-up ignored, so I don't really think you're interested in having a discussion as much as you are interested in complaining.
It was another of those mind bending moments in ME franchise. Some hated it, some liked it and some just rolled with it not caring either way. If we ignore whole burning into ash in atmosphere part ME2's beginning is very strong emotionally.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Yeah, I find the galactic power in 21 years thing rather implausible. Humans discover mass effect technology and in a few years, going from a species using firearms which we would recognize today and barely space faring to developing weapons and ships capable of going up against the Turians who've been a military power for hundreds of years by that point in 9 YEARS. It should be the 2200's at least before even catching up to the other Council species.
It would make more sense if the humans at Shanxi got utterly destroyed in the First Contact War instead of somehow managing to push the Turians off the colony and the Systems Alliance was forced to surrender because their weapons and ships were too far behind technologically. I'm thinking of the humans using M4 carbines and stuff like that against the Turian Mass Effect weapons.
It would make more sense if the humans at Shanxi got utterly destroyed in the First Contact War instead of somehow managing to push the Turians off the colony and the Systems Alliance was forced to surrender because their weapons and ships were too far behind technologically. I'm thinking of the humans using M4 carbines and stuff like that against the Turian Mass Effect weapons.
If I were to guess they wanted to really make point about humans being The Superior Race in Milky Way. Fastest to adapt tech, fastest to iterate on it, fastest to build it etc.
I don't think we share this particular fetish...
Officer.Sanchez
Member
Jaal is the new tali
Completely different topic, but it invokes similar levels of cringe.
Y'all need to chill.
Regarding the idea of a relative handful of people attempting what no other species had until this point- I cannot goddamn believe that people are still fucking this chicken. A relatively minor expedition attempts something new and this is somehow unbelievable? Humanity joined the council in like 20-30 years and colonized a chunk of citadel space, shepard came back from the dead with 4 billion space-bucks, the crucible was created in secret over 1-2 months.
AWizardDidIt
Member
Between this, Horizon, Neir, and Zelda (and possibly Torment if inExile doesn't screw that one up) this might be the single strongest month in video gaming ever. It's sort of insane the embarrassment of riches
DeadlyParasite
Member
I suppose it was only a matter of time before the fanart started to get weirder. There are certain areas of the community I don't dare investigate.
TC McQueen
Member
If you're talking about Ryder incest art, I fully expected it after they revealed there was a brother, sister, and father.
If you think that is weird you really don't want to go looking for Jaal fanart...
Game of Throning it up, eh?
Son Of Sparda
Member
The 40% thingy is a little worrisome. I don't want any sort of story gating in this game Bioware. Not with powers and not with percentages.
If I understand Ian's reply right that 40% doesn't have to do with main story.
Edit: nvm, you are talking more in general as in no gating on anything, right?
shinobi602
Member
There is no story gating. That 40% is in regards to something else. There's no stopping anyone from continuing the critical story path.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Yeah, I don't wanna grind 2-3 hours to be able to continue the loyalty missions or side-stories, either.
At least it's good to know that the main story won't have any story gating in it.
VenomousCoffee
Member
Royal_Phalanx
Member
As long as there's no DA:I style grinding side quests then I'll be fine. If they fulfill their promise that side quests will be meaningful this game will already be better than DA:I.
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