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The NBA has a 3-pt foul problem, and it's associated almost exclusively with Harden

P

Pastry

Banned
And it's associated almost exclusively with James Harden. This was written with eleven games in the regular season left so extrapolate out a little farther.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fiveth...gets-fouled-on-3s-more-than-any-nba-team/amp/

After drawing 27 fouls while trying to shoot a triple in 2014-15 and inducing 46 such fouls last season, 2 Harden has drawn a whopping 108 shooting fouls from distance this year with 11 games left to play. For context, consider that, outside of the Rockets, no team has garnered more than 73 of those calls.
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the average NBA player has drawn fouls on 1.6 percent of his 3-pointers this season, according to BigDataBall, which tracks the league’s play-by-play logs. Harden is drawing 3-point shooting fouls at a 16.7 percent clip, or more than 10 times as often.
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He generally waits until his man puts a hand up to defend, then locks arms with him and jumps to begin a shot, making the defender appear guilty. Harden basically forces perimeter defenders to play with their hands down along the 3-point line.
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At this point in the playoffs Houston has drawn 17 fouls on 3 pointers. Is there a solution to this problem? I can only imagine that it's going to get worse across the rest of the league as players see how effective it has been for him. Do you make three point fouls reviewable? Add a grace period for contact after picks? Just let it ride out?
 
M

Malleymal

You now belong to FMT.
I usually see it on the screen... harden looks like he is going around a screen and if his man tries to fight his way through the screen he goes up for the shot right away so the defender bumps into him. Chris Paul did the same shit twice against the Jazz and made the 3. It is frustrating as shit to watch.
 
C

Cagey

Banned
Harden hooks his arm under the defender as he jumps so it appears in real-time like the defender grabbed him.

Trashball.
 
J

jdstorm

Banned
cdyhybrid said:
Yeah.

Stop fouling a guy known for drawing fouls on threes.
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Harden is litterally grabbing his defenders arms and getting the call in his favor.

Solutions.
1 Actually call the offensive fouls
2.Change all shooting fouls to only be worth 2 shots regardless of where they are attempted.
 
W

Wanda/Wander

Member
alr1ght said:
Harden is such a pain to watch.
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giphy.gif


You're right
 
T

theepicoftyler

Member
It must look so different on the floor to the refs, because it's so blatant watching on TV. I feel like if the shooter initiates contact there should be no foul.

Guys kicking their legs out trying to draw contact, guys collapsing to the floor after taking a jump shot with nobody even close to them... That stuff really makes it hard to enjoy the sport sometimes.
 
L

LionPride

Banned
Don't fall for that bullshit, KD, Russ, Harden, CP3 all do that shit, just don't play em body tight comin off a screen
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
Pastry said:
So just don't ever follow him over a screen?
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You know if you put your hand up you're probably going to draw the foul.

He shoots 34.7% on 3s.

He shoots 84.7% on FTs, which means he has a 60.7% chance to make three FTs in a row.

You tell me what the better play is.

jdstorm said:
Harden is litterally grabbing his defenders arms and getting the call in his favor.

Solutions.
1 Actually call the offensive fouls
2.Change all shooting fouls to only be worth 2 shots regardless of where they are attempted.
Click to expand...

See above.
 
C

cubicle47b

Member
Yes, it's awful to watch. If defenders go behind the screen Harden gets a wide open shot. If they go in front the screener pushes the defender into Harden who immediately throws up a horrible shot. It's not as awful as the intentional off-ball fouling of bigs, though.
 
A

AnAnole

Member
Stfu. Tell players to stop fouling on 3pt attempts. Michael Jordsn got fouled on ling 2s all the time, now it's Harden getting fouled on 3s

Why is this even a fucking thread
 
L

LionPride

Banned
cubicle47b said:
Yes, it's awful to watch. If defenders go behind the screen Harden gets a wide open shot. If they go in front the screener pushed the defender into Harden who immediately throws up a horrible shot. It's not as awful as the intentional off-ball fouling of bigs, though.
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Learn how to shoot free throws @ ANDRE ROBERSON
 
O

OpinionatedCyborg

Member
Bring back regular hand checking.

Foul calls are stupid right now. Big guys get bumped and hacked in the paint with no foul, but any contact around the perimeter sends the guy to the line.
 
DiscoJer

DiscoJer

Member
This happens in most sports. Some players game the system.

In baseball, some batters stand on top of the plate and lean into pitches. The smart ones also wear armor so it doesn't hurt.

In football (both kinds), diving to draw interference penalties is pretty common
 
B

Brinbe

Member
They were supposed to get rid of that bullshit a few years ago but its as bad as ever. Refereeing in general right now is fucking atrocious. Zero consistency, clear home/superstar favoritism, it's horrible.

Donaghy was right.
 
N

numble

Member
cdyhybrid said:
You know if you put your hand up you're probably going to draw the foul.

He shoots 34.7% on 3s.

He shoots 84.7% on FTs, which means he has a 60.7% chance to make three FTs in a row.

You tell me what the better play is.



See above.
Click to expand...

He probably shoots at least 60% on uncontested 3s. Curry makes 82% of uncontested 3s, for example.
 
B

Brandson

Member
Anecdotally, I feel the contact threshold for foul calls on threes has gotten smaller, possibly due to exaggerated falling over by the shooter at the slightest touch. It's not good for the fans. The league really should examine either rule changes or changes to the 3-pt line for the health of the game.
 
V

Violence Jack

Member
This had to be about that Patty Mills play that had Popovich livid.

I have a feeling the competition committee will be making some changes to this soon, but players have been doing this for a long time now.
 
F

FaintColt388301

Member
The acting and the light contact needs to really just be a play on. There needs to be a certain amount of contact allowed. Player initiated contact is always stupid. If you pump fake somebody you shouldn't be able to jump in to them. They are in the air that is just a natural advantage to drive. I get that its a big part of the game but I personally dont like it.
 
A

Atomic Playboy

Member
alr1ght said:
Harden is such a pain to watch.
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MVP!

I feel like people who tout Harden over Westbrook as MVP have never seen Harden play. His game is like basketball cancer. Let's take an entertainment product and make it as unentertaining as humanly possible. Hey, instead of Guardians of the Galaxy, let's watch Jack and Jill. Adam Sandler puts up such great numbers.
 
L

LionPride

Banned
Atomic Playboy said:
MVP!

I feel like people who tout Harden over Westbrook as MVP have never seen Harden play. His game is like basketball cancer. Let's take an entertainment product and make it as unentertaining as humanly possible. Hey, instead of Guardians of the Galaxy, let's watch Jack and Jill. Adam Sandler puts up such great numbers.
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Harden puts up a very aesthetically pleasing game
BanGy.nz said:
LEAVE MY BOY ALONE HE'S ALREADY DEAD! 😭   
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21% ON FREE THROWS

TWENTY ONE PERCENT
 
Clockwork5

Clockwork5

Member
jdstorm said:
Harden is litterally grabbing his defenders arms and getting the call in his favor.

Solutions.
1 Actually call the offensive fouls
2.Change all shooting fouls to only be worth 2 shots regardless of where they are attempted.
Click to expand...
1. It's not an offensive foul to shoot the ball when a defender is reaching.
2. That is dumb.
 
V

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Few of things at play here.

- Teams have figured out with the current rules and what actually gets called coupled with players being great shooters that you can distort the game via the 3 point shot with the way the math works out.

- Refs NEVER call moving screens. So that makes it easy as fuck for big guys to come up top, roll with a moving screen on a guy, and get one of the premiere 3 point shooters to distort the math via point 1. Plus the moving screen helps check the defender which makes it easier to get fouls

- Hand checking has basically been legislated out over the years. So guys can't really hard guard dudes on the perimeter anymore, and they just get screened out.

This has happened to some degree in every single playoff series so far this year. It's just taken to the Nth degree by guys who can legit shoot and are smart enough to know how to game the system. So guys like Wall, Curry, Harden, Irving ect...

So the NBA either has to change the way fouls are called or move the line back even further to get the %s jn check.
 
A

Atomic Playboy

Member
LionPride said:
Harden puts up a very aesthetically pleasing game
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Yeah, the way he shoots so naturally by swinging his arms in a GIANT ARC THAT STARTS AT HIS KNEES is so graceful. Yes, this is my natural shooting motion. I shoot like someone sped up a Mickey Mouse watch. 3-6-9-FOUL. The way James Naismith intended.
 
V

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
GitarooMan said:
Another thing that facilitates this is the moving screens they never call
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Clockwork5 said:
1. It's not an offensive foul to shoot the ball when a defender is reaching.
2. That is dumb.
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This all happens cause defenders can't guard up and hand check, and offensive big men can set moving screens that then make it impossible for the defender to recover. The smart players who can shoot know this so they can easily draw the foul.

To be fair your right a lot of times it IS a defensive foul. You gotta look at the total picture on how we've gotten here though and how the 3 point shot in general distorts the math with great shooters.
 
L

LionPride

Banned
Atomic Playboy said:
Yeah, the way he shoots so naturally by swinging his arms in a GIANT ARC THAT STARTS AT HIS KNEES is so graceful. Yes, this is my natural shooting motion. I shoot like someone sped up a Mickey Mouse watch. 3-6-9-FOUL. The way James Naismith intended.
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James Naismith lost basketball games at Kansas to the fucking dudes at the Y down the street, I don't give a fuck about what he intended
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
Atomic Playboy said:
Yeah, the way he shoots so naturally by swinging his arms in a GIANT ARC THAT STARTS AT HIS KNEES is so graceful. Yes, this is my natural shooting motion. I shoot like someone sped up a Mickey Mouse watch. 3-6-9-FOUL. The way James Naismith intended.
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Is this a subtle Lonzo Ball diss or something?
 
M

MugiwaraCole

Member
cdyhybrid said:
Yeah.

Stop fouling a guy known for drawing fouls on threes.
Click to expand...

More often than not, they're not even fouling him. There are so many instances of him hooking his arm under the players before "shooting". That's not a foul, certainly not on the defenders part.

They need to change that.
 
S

ShowDog

Member
It's garbage basketball, Silver has got to get it fixed. You can't even go over a screen on Harden without him flailing about like a wounded animal, but he's not being fouled.
 
S

sir_kevith

Member
It's pretty ridiculous that the solution is to just not guard certain players at the 3. It's funny when harden does this and they don't call it and he never even attempts the actual shot and the commentators just don't acknowledge that it was BS.
 
B

Bubble Metropolis

Member
Kite said:
https://streamable.com/g7xaw

I'm a rockets fan and have to admit harden is hard to watch.. appreciate what he does though, it's damn effective.
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I have no problem with James Harden's proclivity to get fouls by starting his shot way low in order to draw reaches, because he's proven that his shots go in even when he does this. It's not just looking for fouls.

This, though. This is some bullshit, and I've always thought so. I even hate it when a defender bites on a pump fake and the shooter unnaturally jumps into him to draw the foul, but I can understand that. You know, stay on your feet.

However, this recent trend of using screeners to bump defenders into commiting a foul is another level of bullshit. Up there with rip throughs for me.
 
Clockwork5

Clockwork5

Member
MugiwaraCole said:
More often than not, they're not even fouling him. There are so many instances of him hooking his arm under the players before "shooting". That's not a foul, certainly not on the defenders part.

They need to change that.
Click to expand...

While I would agree some players do hook the defenders arm so the refs are forced to make a call, I would disagree that a defender shouldn't be charged for a foul when contact with the shooters arm is made.

The defender holds his hand out above the ball while the shooter is standing on the three point line, the shooter shoots and hits the defenders arm as he raises his arms for the shot. It's a foul every time or at least that is how it has always been called in the NBA. That is what happens for 75% of these Harden fouls.

You play smart defense against these guys, and after watching a bunch of rockets games this season, there are some teams that have certainly figured out what not to do with Harden.
 
A

AcridMeat

Banned
facelike said:
I saw a video on this a little bit back.

Here it is:

https://youtu.be/IEkTUVnhGZ0
The ex NBA ref said the calls are bullshit.
Click to expand...
The egregious moving screen by Gordon in that one clip is so bad...

I'm of the mind that these hooks should be called as offensive fouls, but it's basically impossible for the refs to see it versus the actual fouls he draws.

Or you know, just eliminate rewarding these chuck shots after a whistle and inbound it at the sideline.
 
C

chicko1983

Member
cdyhybrid said:
You know if you put your hand up you're probably going to draw the foul.

He shoots 34.7% on 3s.

He shoots 84.7% on FTs, which means he has a 60.7% chance to make three FTs in a row.

You tell me what the better play is.



See above.
Click to expand...

Yep, that is the correct way you should be coaching your players, make him throw the ball and dont send him to the line
 
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