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[numble]

Yep, that is the correct way you should be coaching your players, make him throw the ball and dont send him to the line

You don't coach your players to not put your hands up at the 3 point line.

The shooting percentages he quoted are his overall shooting percentage, the majority of the time when someone has a hand up and contests the shot.

His shooting percentage will go up in situations where there is no hand up and the shot is uncontested.

When he participated in the uncontested 3-point contest, I believe his shooting percentage was around 70-80%. He got 20 points from shooting 25 balls (I don't know how many moneyballs he put in).

 

[chessnut]

I don't get why it's so hard for the NBA to fix it's flopping problem. If you flop and get the call, the ref should review the tape after the game and stop giving him the benefit of the doubt as punishment. When he stops getting calls, he'll stop doing it.

 

[Stabby McSter]

Get rid of the 3 point line

this won't do anything

 

[NoctisVsStar]

I don't get why it's so hard for the NBA to fix it's flopping problem. If you flop and get the call, the ref should review the tape after the game and stop giving him the benefit of the doubt as punishment. When he stops getting calls, he'll stop doing it.

Can't stop the game to review every flop, this is also a big problem in fútbol as well. Besides there's a fine system in place yet it doesn't stop deter them.

 

[VeeP]

Can't stop the game to review every flop, this is also a big problem in fútbol as well. Besides there's a fine system in place yet it doesn't stop deter them.

He's saying look at the tape after the game. For instance if Harden flops multiple times one night, don't give him foul calls the next time unless you know 100% it was a foul.

Get rid of the 3 point line

I say let's add a four point line.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

He's saying look at the tape after the game. For instance if Harden flops multiple times one night, don't give him foul calls the next time unless you know 100% it was a foul.

I say let's add a four point line.

Game moves so fast it's already hard to officiate but yeah they should keep an eye on harden.

 

[FinKL]

I was rooting for the Rockets this series, but watching Harden he's so dam dirty. On one possession Patty Mills CLEARLY signaled hands up "(I can't foul him)" WAY BEFORE Harden attemped the shot and Harden STILL drew the foul. I yelled bullshit out loud

https://streamable.com/g7xaw

 

[Anth0ny]

I was rooting for the Rockets this series, but watching Harden he's so dam dirty. On one possession Patty Mills CLEARLY signaled hands up "(I can't foul him)" WAY BEFORE Harden attemped the shot and Harden STILL drew the foul. I yelled bullshit out loud

https://streamable.com/g7xaw

Yeah I think this is more of a problem with refs and their bullshit foul calls more than anything.

Shit was going on all night during the Raps/Cavs game too. Lebron makes a move, bodies the defender with his elbow/shoulder, defender gets called for a foul.

 

[Bucca]

I saw a video on this a little bit back.

Here it is:

https://youtu.be/IEkTUVnhGZ0

Spoiler

The ex NBA ref said the calls are bullshit.

This is the most shameful and embarrassing shit ever.

 

[mechashiva]

The game is supposed to be fun to watch and he definitely isn't. Hope they figure out a balance.

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

I saw a video on this a little bit back.

Here it is:

https://youtu.be/IEkTUVnhGZ0

Spoiler

The ex NBA ref said the calls are bullshit.

This was the clip I've been trying to find since moment after it happened to post in the NBA community thread.
https://youtu.be/IEkTUVnhGZ0?t=5m54s (time stamped from the vid above)

This is such bullshit and should start being called an offensive foul.
I can't really fault Hardens game for taking advantage of the call, but it's still bullshit that the refs keep calling it.

The Patty Mills one from tonight was also bull shit, and should either be a non call or an offensive foul.
The initiator of the contact should be called for the foul.
actually, I think if you intentionally hook someone like Harden is doing, you should be giving the other team a technical free throw and giving them the ball back along w/ tacking on an offensive foul. Let's end this practice quickly before it spreads.

 

[Mortemis]

It's the way the game has been moving toward, but yeah Harden has found a way to take it to the next level.

The one thing that really annoys me is the big doing a moving screen to bump the defender into Harden, who does their flop shot motion to draw the foul.

Few of things at play here.

- Teams have figured out with the current rules and what actually gets called coupled with players being great shooters that you can distort the game via the 3 point shot with the way the math works out.

- Refs NEVER call moving screens. So that makes it easy as fuck for big guys to come up top, roll with a moving screen on a guy, and get one of the premiere 3 point shooters to distort the math via point 1. Plus the moving screen helps check the defender which makes it easier to get fouls

- Hand checking has basically been legislated out over the years. So guys can't really hard guard dudes on the perimeter anymore, and they just get screened out.

This has happened to some degree in every single playoff series so far this year. It's just taken to the Nth degree by guys who can legit shoot and are smart enough to know how to game the system. So guys like Wall, Curry, Harden, Irving ect...

So the NBA either has to change the way fouls are called or move the line back even further to get the %s jn check.

Don't get my boy Curry involved in this. Dude can get tackled on the court and still not get calls.

 

[StrategyFan]

the way basketball rules are set up, the game is designed to be extremely hard for defenders. people just need to l2p

if any of those shots actually go in, then the basket must count
ergo, it must be a shooting foul even if the shot is bogus

they could change the rules to create a double standard for shots that go in vs. shots that don't go in, but that sounds lame

 

[Dreams-Visions]

It's the way the game has been moving toward,

based on the data, no it isn't. It's literally JUST James Harden. A few players work to draw fouls on the 3 point line sure, but James is an extreme outlier.

 

[Mortemis]

based on the data, no it isn't. It's literally JUST James Harden. A few players work to draw fouls on the 3 point line sure, but James is an extreme outlier.

Yeah nvm, for some reason I was thinking about fouls and contact calls in general. Harden has taken 3pt fouling to an extreme level.

The way he's added hooking the defenders arm into his shot motion is incredible.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

I was rooting for the Rockets this series, but watching Harden he's so dam dirty. On one possession Patty Mills CLEARLY signaled hands up "(I can't foul him)" WAY BEFORE Harden attemped the shot and Harden STILL drew the foul. I yelled bullshit out loud

https://streamable.com/g7xaw

Playoffs refs gonna playoffs refs

 

[Boogs31]

Zach Lowe and Jeff Van Gundy have talked about this subject and they are both under the impression that these plays are fouls but not shooting fouls. I agree. The defender puts his hand in and makes contact with the shooter and then the shooter pulls up for the shot. It should be called a hand check but the continuation rules in the NBA make it a challenge to not call it in the act of shooting. The league will probably do something in the off-season to remedy this, similar to the KD rip through rule.

 

[callhitman]

This is the next evolution in the game. Money has made it where you will try anything to win.

 

[shoelacer]

Lol


Harden being able to draw fouls from beyond the arc is the least of the leagues problems when it comes officiating. At worst, he's much more creative than other players abusing the rules for their own benefit in less-than-admirable ways. Maybe I'll give a fuck about gamesmanship in the NBA when they start giving a fuck about flopping.

 

[Timedog]

NBA has a Harden problem. If you are purposely trying to draw a foul it shouldn't be called. Especially since the league said they want to cut back on game length. Watching basketball sucks now because of this garbage foul shit.

 

[shoelacer]

NBA has a Harden problem. If you are purposely trying to draw a foul it shouldn't be called. Especially since the league said they want to cut back on game length. Watching basketball sucks now because of this garbage foul shit.

Watching basketball now, in the finals, rules as they are, is easily more entertaining than any other sport in the US.

 

[StrategyFan]

watched some more videos of this

a lot of is just awful defense. most of it would be avoided if people just went under/through screens instead of going over them to try to stay tight

referees should be a bit more attentive to rough/moving screens, but coaches are silly if they expect players to guard every single 3

defending long-range shots without fouling is supposed to be nearly impossible if the offense has any clue about how to play the game

if long open shots are ruining the entertainment value of the sport, they might want to get rid of 3s. but the game works so well because the offense side is basically guaranteed to create windows of opportunity for a reasonable attempt at scoring, even when one team is way better than the other

 

[highrider]

NBA has a Harden problem. If you are purposely trying to draw a foul it shouldn't be called. Especially since the league said they want to cut back on game length. Watching basketball sucks now because of this garbage foul shit.

I get why people feel this way. But the impetus is really on the guy that defends him. Not just for long range, but how often has Harden done the drive to the lane where he doesn't even intend to make a real shot but offers up the low silver platter ball and defenses inevitably fall for it and hack, and he crumbles to the floor and heads to the line. It's shitty but all players have different ways of getting their team to win. It's like that guy that couches next to an elevator or exit in Halo with a shotgun. It's cheap, corny, but you have to defend against it.

 

[Malvolio]

Don't watch a lot of NBA, but watching Isiah Thomas in the playoffs this year reminds me why I don't watch anymore. Drawing a foul by jumping into a player and flopping like a fish after you created the contact is just bad television.

 

[The Albatross]

Get rid of the 3 point line

I'd love to see a summer league with professional players who took it seriously that didn't have a three point line, just to see how the game would change

 

[reggieandTFE]

Not calling moving screens are what causes this. The Washington/Boston game the other night was insane. Gortat on one side and Smart/Crowder/Olynyk on the other side running through defenders, giving hip checks in passing. Terrible.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

Don't watch a lot of NBA, but watching Isiah Thomas in the playoffs this year reminds me why I don't watch anymore. Drawing a foul by jumping into a player and flopping like a fish after you created the contact is just bad television.

I get it you didn't watch Game 2 vs Washington.

Don't get me wrong Isaiah draws a lot of bad calls but he has been easily one the most entertaining players this post season.

 

[phanphare]

this is hardly just a Harden problem. I'm a hornets fan and batum would frequently draw fouls from 3. I've seen Westbrook catch people reaching, Curry does it, etc. And honestly if you're a defender going over a screen on a shooter you should know they're going to raise up if they feel contact.

 

[ColdPizza]

So he's the Bill Belichick of the NBA

 

[Sanjuro]

Banish Harden to the WNBA.

 

[Dangansona]

Exasperated by the fact that in the refs eyes Harden has obtained superstar status and thus gets preferential treatment. It's frustrating as hell watching Boogie and Jrue Holiday get hacked every night and neither get calls. The former because of a bad reputation, the latter because not enough of one.

It's just inconsistency that bothers me the most. In what OP is describing for better or worse they have been consistent. I think it will be addressed in the off-season.

What also needs to be addressed is the quality of the refs overall. I would love it if they pulled one up into a box in the stands for a overhead view of the action, but it will never happen.

 

[Malvolio]

I get it you didn't watch Game 2 vs Washington.

Don't get me wrong Isaiah draws a lot of bad calls but he has been easily one the most entertaining players this post season.

Correct, I did not. However, I just don't see how a player drawing a lot of bad calls can be one of the most entertaining. Tricking the ref should never be a valid strategy.

 

[Vanillalite]

Not calling moving screens are what causes this. The Washington/Boston game the other night was insane. Gortat on one side and Smart/Crowder/Olynyk on the other side running through defenders, giving hip checks in passing. Terrible.

Wizards literally did it almost every time down the court in the Hawks and it was always Gortat. USA today even has an article up about it.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/marcin-gortat-moving-screen-washington-wizards-atlanta-hawks-john-wall-game-5-nba

Wall is a GREAT shooter like Harden when getting an open look. It's easy to get open looks when your guy hip checks the defender for you.

 

[gcubed]

How is this not an offensive foul?
https://streamable.com/g7xaw

Because it's not an offensive foul?

It's also not a foul on the defender either. It was just a terrible job by the ref

Call moving screens and half this shit goes away

I get it you didn't watch Game 2 vs Washington.

Don't get me wrong Isaiah draws a lot of bad calls but he has been easily one the most entertaining players this post season.

Life is much easier when you can carry the basketball on every crossover.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

Technical exploits like this drive me crazy. I watch a lot of roller derby and the rules and penalties etc are still evolving and they have to update the rules every few years or so to keep up with all the shit the players figure out how to get away with.

Hardens trick reminds me of in derby when you know you're about to get hit, so you change your body position at the last second so the hit you received is a penalty. Super shady and doesn't make you any better of an athlete.

 

[LionPride]

NBA has a Harden problem. If you are purposely trying to draw a foul it shouldn't be called. Especially since the league said they want to cut back on game length. Watching basketball sucks now because of this garbage foul shit.

People have been selling contact for fouls for years. People have been seeking fouls for years. Ain't just a new development

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Solution is to put out a memo that this move is no longer allowed and all three point shot fouls will be reviewed post game. Anyone that pulls this move will be assessed a technical. The player will be hit with a fine and after a certain number will start having to sit out games.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

I saw a video on this a little bit back.

Here it is:

https://youtu.be/IEkTUVnhGZ0

Spoiler

The ex NBA ref said the calls are bullshit.

this is a disgrace

 

[Squalor]

Yikes, not a lot of people know what they're talking about or they're just Harden apologists.

He frequently just runs or jumps into defenders who are not fouling or in the act of fouling him at all.

And, no, the solution is not to leave him with a wide open, uncontested three.

this is a disgrace

That is Harden basketball. He's so talented, but I hate watching him play. This has nothing to do with my wishing for "old-school" basketball or anything. I love watching the Warriors and LeBron and any iteration of the Spurs, but Harden is just a slog to watch when he's just looking for foul calls.

 

[Vanillalite]

Solution is to put out a memo that this move is no longer allowed and all three point shot fouls will be reviewed post game. Anyone that pulls this move will be assessed a technical. The player will be hit with a fine and after a certain number will start having to sit out games.

Harden's shots most of the time are fine.

It's not the shot you need to fix. It's the screens. Fix the screens and a lot of this will just magically go away.

 

[datruth29]

this is a disgrace

For anybody confused by this, this was called a defensive foul on the other player, not Harden.

Also, people are getting shit mixed up in this thread about the kind of fouls that are causing problems. The two biggest ones are 1) the screener pushing the defender into the shooter, 2) the shooter hooking the defenders arm, followed by them shooting.

The last one has two variations. The first is where the defender has a hand on the player and the player draws the foul with the hook. There's not much of an issue with this, except that it gets called a shooting foul when it's not. The second variation is the one that's infuriating, which is when the shooter REACHES OUT to hook the defender, and then follows with a "shot". That's not a defensive foul. That's clearly an offensive foul.

This isn't a rules issue, this is a reffing issue. I don't understand why they let themselves get fooled into this. Every. Single. Time.

And Harden isn't the only player on his team who's mastered this. Lou Williams gets away with this shit as well.

 

[Swass]

Maybe they need to use instant replay on 3 point shot fouls or go back to the old 2 shot for fouls beyond the line.

 

[Vanillalite]

Maybe they need to use instant replay on 3 point shot fouls or go back to the old 2 shot for fouls beyond the line.

No need to change any of the rules.

Just enforce offensive fouls already on the books on screens.

It's not even a hard fix.

 

[Ripenen]

The thing I wonder is if this is so effective, why is Harden such an outlier when it comes to getting these calls? There are plenty of floppers sure, but nobody is doing it at Harden's level.

If CP3 could add 6-10 points a game by doing this same thing maybe the Clippers get to the WCF.

 

[gcubed]

I'm not even a huge harden fan but why are people blaming him for shit referees? Almost all clips posted here are terrible calls irrespective of Harden.

 

[megalowho]

It's a smart move. If there's contact initiated, it's a foul. Not a lot of players are crafty enough to pull into their shooting motion that quick when defenders try to fight through screens, it's a learned skill.

 

[Vanillalite]

The thing I wonder is if this is so effective, why is Harden such an outlier when it comes to getting these calls? There are plenty of floppers sure, but nobody is doing it at Harden's level.

If CP3 could add 6-10 points a game by doing this same thing maybe the Clippers get to the WCF.

His shooting motion is different.

That being said the actual move of shooting 3s isn't a Harden thing. It's just the new math all top teams are using.

They are all doing it. Hell Cavs move this trade deadline was specifically to get Korver for this very reason. Get another dude that can distort the math by shooting 3s vs 2s.

 

[datruth29]

The thing I wonder is if this is so effective, why is Harden such an outlier when it comes to getting these calls? There are plenty of floppers sure, but nobody is doing it at Harden's level.

If CP3 could add 6-10 points a game by doing this same thing maybe the Clippers get to the WCF.

Part of it I think is that Harden is left handed, and defenders aren't use to that.

 

[Bubble Metropolis]

The thing I wonder is if this is so effective, why is Harden such an outlier when it comes to getting these calls? There are plenty of floppers sure, but nobody is doing it at Harden's level.

If CP3 could add 6-10 points a game by doing this same thing maybe the Clippers get to the WCF.

Because Harden's natural ability already draws closer attention than almost anyone else in the league. You can get away with going under screens and not sticking as tightly to CP3. You can recover on someone like CP3. But if you go under that screen on Harden it's a bucket.

You can also consider that the entire Rockets offense is built around Harden, and they have set plays specifically designed to get him to the line. It's no accident that in multiple clips posted here you can see Nene bump a defender at the three point line and Harden immediately hooks an arm then flails. It's designed that way.

Someone who's a threat to pull up from anywhere, like KD or Curry, could also do this, but I guess they're not as ruthless as Harden when it comes to flopping, hooking, and straight up leaning on people like in that Lin foul (wtf?).

 

[n00bsauce87]

I say let's add a four point line.

4 point line

Be careful what you wish for

Harden is exploiting the rules. Why should he stop?

You probably need to switch on the PnR to not put the original defender in harm's way. Probably have the second defender just close in hard and maybe force Harden to back out or split the defense. If he still wants to take a three, it'll be a lot of congestion in his shooting area.