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The NBA has a 3-pt foul problem, and it's associated almost exclusively with Harden

C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
I've hated Harden his entire NBA career for how he tries to draw fouls. There's drawing fouls... and then there's what Harden does. Flail around whenever anyone comes within 3 inches of him.

But it sure is great whenever he flops and the contact/call isn't there. Happened a few times last night.
 
S

Space Avocat

Member
My favorite is when he hooks his right (non-shooting) arm around a defender to draw a foul like he's going to shoot with his off-hand. Trash basketball.

He accentuates (flops) any amount of contact--contact that is initiated by him most of the time--and gets rewarded for it with foul calls. You can see how hesitant people are to play defense on him now, because if you're within his wingspan, you're risking him starting his shooting motion from him is ankles (or his hip, or behind his head, or 120 feet from the basket) and hitting you and getting the foul call. It's absolutely awful to watch.

NBA is definitely going to address it in the off season.
 
Z

zelas

Member
VeeP said:
He's saying look at the tape after the game. For instance if Harden flops multiple times one night, don't give him foul calls the next time unless you know 100% it was a foul.
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I like the idea of reviewing the tape after the fact at the very least if in game reviews would be too frequent. But they should start handing out post game technicals instead of subjectively calling the next game differently. Post game techs aren't going to immediately help victims of these instances right away but if offending players start reaching the 16 or 7 techs uspension pentalty quicker it could pay off down the line or just deter players outright.

I'd rather they add more staff to review this stuff right after plays though.
 
N

n00bsauce87

Member
zelas said:
I like the idea of reviewing the tape after the fact at the very least if in game reviews would be too frequent. But they should start handing out post game technicals instead of subjectively calling the next game differently. Post game techs aren't going to immediately help victims of these instances right away but if offending players start reaching the 16 or 7 techs uspension pentalty quicker it could pay off down the line or just deter players outright.

I'd rather they add more staff to review this stuff right after plays though.
Click to expand...

That or give offensive fouls for flopping like they do in soccer for simulation (taking a dive)
 
T

ty_hot

Member
Congrats for him. Its funny when he doesnt get fouled though, he looks like a complete imbecile that lost the ball for nothing.
 
O

obijkenobi

Member
zelas said:
I like the idea of reviewing the tape after the fact at the very least if in game reviews would be too frequent. But they should start handing out post game technicals instead of subjectively calling the next game differently. Post game techs aren't going to immediately help victims of these instances right away but if offending players start reaching the 16 or 7 techs uspension pentalty quicker it could pay off down the line or just deter players outright.

I'd rather they add more staff to review this stuff right after plays though.
Click to expand...


Techs have like a 1k fine associated with them too right? Maybe even up the fines for that type of post game tech to $10k.
 
A

airjoca

Member
In Football, players get yellow cards for flopping and diving.

Start handing out technicals for this sort of thing.
 
E

Effnine

Member
I love watching the NBA. Have all my life, but Rockets games are damn near unwatchable because of this shit.

The Rockets/Thunder series was probably the worst of it since you had Westbrook and Harden just trying to draw fouls instead of actually playing.
 
R

Raysoul

Member
I like how he uses his beard to draw fouls

giphy.gif
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Malleymal said:
I usually see it on the screen... harden looks like he is going around a screen and if his man tries to fight his way through the screen he goes up for the shot right away so the defender bumps into him. Chris Paul did the same shit twice against the Jazz and made the 3. It is frustrating as shit to watch.
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Yeah I saw this shit in the Jazz series and it's arguably worse than the rip-through foul baiting. You can't reasonably call a foul on a guy for bumping a shooter when his own teammate is intentionally bumping him into the shooter.

It's some straight up WWE nonsense.

Worst is that this kind of play isn't really conducive to improving your game at other levels of basketball. The flailing that CP3 and Harden do only works if you get calls - for any "normal" player, it's a turnover if the ref isn't buying it.

airjoca said:
In Football, players get yellow cards for flopping and diving.

Start handing out technicals for this sort of thing.
Click to expand...

NBA tried to address this in 2013 after fan and player complaints, it's rarely used. The league mostly targeted scrubs like Reggie Evans, and even then only a handful of times per year.
 
G

Gotdatmoney

Member
Part of the issue is it is becoming damn impossible to break through some of these moving screens. The screen setter bumps the chaser into a shooter and its a 3 point shooting foul. Fuck off.
 
L

Line_HTX

Member
Look at all of you people targeting Harden as if that is The only thing he does and not pass to others for assists. ALL OF YOU! You can't tell me that you'll hate his game if he's on your team too.

giphy.gif
 
S

spyder_ur

Member
This is driving me absolutely crazy. I hate the practice, though I can't blame the players (it benefits Isaiah and the Celtics quite frequently. I do think it will be addressed in the offseason

cdyhybrid said:
You know if you put your hand up you're probably going to draw the foul.

He shoots 34.7% on 3s.

He shoots 84.7% on FTs, which means he has a 60.7% chance to make three FTs in a row.

You tell me what the better play is.
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You're essentially suggesting that you're not allowed to guard 3 pointers though. I bet James Harden would shoot better than 34.7% on 3s if they were never contested.

HarryKS said:
It's not really a problem though. It's smart play.
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I think it is a problem, it can be both a problem and a smart play by the individual player. It's not a basketball play. Everyone in the arena knows James Harden (or whomever) is not trying to actually shoot the basketball in most of these examples.

One suggestion is to just allow the referees more discretion to determine actual shooting motions.

The second is a bit more drastic: just don't award 3 free throws for a foul on a 3 point shot. This would have some late-game ramifications that you would probably have to account for, though.
 
R

Rival

Gold Member
Not sure what the solution is but the nba has become painful to watch with all of the foul calls. There's no rhythm to the games most of the time. It's just once or twice down the floor and then a whistle and then someone complaining about being called for a foul or not getting a foul call....I'm looking at you Pau Gasol!
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
FinKL said:
I was rooting for the Rockets this series, but watching Harden he's so dam dirty. On one possession Patty Mills CLEARLY signaled hands up "(I can't foul him)" WAY BEFORE Harden attemped the shot and Harden STILL drew the foul. I yelled bullshit out loud

https://streamable.com/g7xaw
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Fuck this shit right here. Is this a reputation call? A "Harden needs to get his numbers call"? A "I'm lazy and I need a minute to catch my breath" call? There's no way the ref saw contact on this play.
 
S

Stormhammer

Member
the other shit that bothers me is when dude with the ball drives to the lane and then just screams to act like he's been hit or yells AND 1 to try and get a call. draymond green seems to do this a lot
 
G

Gotdatmoney

Member
I want 3pt free throws only awarded on legit shooting motions. A lot of this toss the ball up as soon as I feel contact fucking sucks. If the player isn't trying to score then somide out of bounds.

The other this is jumping into the shooter should be a no call on the basis of that rule. You aren't trying to score so side out of bounds.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
It's pathetic and, frankly, bad for the sport. God forbid a potential fan tune into a Rockets game - that motherfucker would never watch basketball again. I know lifelong fans jaded by it. Hopefully it gets addressed in the off-season.

Raysoul said:
I like how he uses his beard to draw fouls

giphy.gif
Click to expand...

Notice how he exaggerates, realizes it wasn't quite enough for the ref to blow the whistle, then goes in for take 2 to really sell it? It's almost funny.

The ironic flipside of this is that Curry can't get a call to save his life and other players know this and get away with murder guarding him. Sometimes it's like he's the only player on the court playing with 80s rules.

Line_HTX said:
Harden can have bad games too. And do not tell me he is the only person drawing these fouls.
Click to expand...

LOL. Of course not. He's just the most egregious example and exhibit A for why the league needs to make a rule change of some kind.
 
H

HawksWinStanley

Member
The NBA is such a shit show now. Everything is a foul, the diving is just pathetic, and you have stuff like this happening as a result. It's borderline unwatchable for me. I just can't take it seriously.
 
S

Spasm

Member
One Jazz game late in the season, he Scored 35 points, 15 of which were free throws, with this bullshit move accounting for 12 of those. I raged. But HOU lost, so fuck him.
 
G

Gotdatmoney

Member
Line_HTX said:
Harden can have bad games too. And do not tell me he is the only person drawing these fouls.
Click to expand...

Harden is the worst for this. But others are bad for it too absolutely. That Patty Mills streamable is a prime example. Basically no contact, hands up, Harden flails, tosses up a shot with 0 chance of going in, 3 fts. What the fuck is that?
 
B

btrboyev

Member
The NBA has a foul problem period. The last 5 mins of every NBA game is a complete shit show.

Intentional fouls should be an automatic boot from the game
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
NBA has been garbage to watch for years. This is just one part of an enormous foul problem that makes the game extremely unpleasant to watch.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
btrboyev said:
The NBA has a foul problem period. The last 5 mins of every NBA game is a complete shit show.

Intentional fouls should be an automatic boot from the game
Click to expand...

I don't think they should be an auto boot. But maybe 2x or auto 1x shoot + ball
 
P

phanphare

Banned
CopperPuppy said:
The ironic flipside of this is that Curry can't get a call to save his life and other players know this and get away with murder guarding him. Sometimes it's like he's the only player on the court playing with 80s rules.
Click to expand...

curry gets something comparable to the shaq treatment, which is all kinds of hilarious. refs know that he can kill you pretty much at any spot on the floor in front of the half court line. also little guys get no respect when they get to the rim. I can almost guarantee you that every time a guy like curry, IT, kemba, etc. get to the rim they get fouled.
 
M

marcbret87

Member
Gotdatmoney said:
Harden is the worst for this. But others are bad for it too absolutely. That Patty Mills streamable is a prime example. Basically no contact, hands up, Harden flails, tosses up a shot with 0 chance of going in, 3 fts. What the fuck is that?
Click to expand...

That was just a terrible terrible call. But yeah, it's annoying sometimes watching him just trying to draw fouls by initiating contact himself and getting away with it.

I however don't agree with those who say he ain't fun to watch. He is an amazing passer, and his step-back jumpshot is a thing of beauty, so smooth in everything he does.
 
G

Gotdatmoney

Member
marcbret87 said:
That was just a terrible terrible call. But yeah, it's annoying sometimes watching him just trying to draw fouls by initiating contact himself and getting away with it.

I however don't agree with those who say he ain't fun to watch. He is an amazing passer, and his step-back jumpshot is a thing of beauty, so smooth in everything he does.
Click to expand...

The only thing I hate about Harden is how he gets rewarded for fishing and never gets called for the forearm pushes he uses on step backs to create space. Harden is fun to watch when he actually tries to score. He is also a great passer I agree.
 
S

spyder_ur

Member
Line_HTX said:
Harden can have bad games too. And do not tell me he is the only person drawing these fouls.
Click to expand...

Harden has drawn more 3-point shooting fouls than any other NBA team (through 3/23)

The Lakers were second largely because of Lou Williams, who is now on the Rockets, incidentally.

I don't think it's Harden's fault in really any way. I do also think he's a bit of a pioneer and you're seeing way more players mimic it, because this play rewards a team 3 FTs and punishes defenders through no fault of their own.

But it is bad basketball, and I say this as a fan of a team who has benefitted as IT has learned the trick.
 
T

twentytwo22

Member
Chris Paul got away with this three times in one of the Clippers-Jazz playoff games. The around-the-screen jump-into-the-guy call, which is BS.

However, I'm totally onboard with a foul being called if it impacts the guy landing. That's injury city.
 
S

SwipeLeftHoney

Banned
The NBA has more of an officiating problem than anything. Games are borderline scripted now with the way refs dictate the flow of the game now. It's been a problem forever in the league.
 
L

Lakershead22

Member
spyder_ur said:

Harden has drawn more 3-point shooting fouls than any other NBA team (through 3/23)

The Lakers were second largely because of Lou Williams, who is now on the Rockets, incidentally.

I don't think it's Harden's fault in really any way. I do also think he's a bit of a pioneer and you're seeing way more players mimic it, because this play rewards a team 3 FTs and punishes defenders through no fault of their own.

But it is bad basketball, and I say this as a fan of a team who has benefitted as IT has learned the trick.
Click to expand...

As a Lakers fan, I hated when Lou did that lol
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
I have no problem with this call as long as the shooter jumps straight up. They seem to call it even when the shooter jumps back into the defender though.
 
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