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[ianp622]

A person who gets a ComSci degree at some University is not going to be ahead of the game over someone at a game-centric school.

How are you so sure? Employers don't say to themselves, "Oh, this guy went to this game design school, he must be more qualified." They say, "Oh, this guy took the initiative and made his own game along with his friends, even though his school doesn't have a game program."

So you pull people in without any kind of certification of their "talent"? If a guy went up to you and drew an awesome character, you'd just hire them on the spot after figuring they have a good personality through an interview?

That's a pretty bad way to go if the guy never learned about the depths of drawing.

I really doubt they would hire someone without training in art, modeling, sound effects, scripting, and writing over someone who does.

Do you know how a portfolio works?

Also, he's not saying that you can get in without experience, but that having a broader skill set is only a good thing.

...anyone can put their own unique thoughts into a game.

You don't really know how game development works do you? To be able to imprint a personal touch on a game, you usually need to be an indie developer or a designer with the weight of Miyamoto or Kojima. Which is one thing I'd like to see changed in the industry.

 

[sugaki]

Here's a question for those who work within the gaming industry:

The general consensus is that getting into games on the writing side is damn near impossible early on in one's career. That I understand, but how exactly does the marketing/PR/advertising side of the game industry operate in terms of offering entry-level positions?

Just wondering, because I well, I just graduate with two degrees one in Media Writing and another in Communication Studies and that's a side of the game industry I would like to explore if they are hiring. (You should be recieving my resume soon Epic!)

I think both PR and editorial sides are just as in demand for entry-level, since there is some overlap in job requirements.

If anything, there's usually a good chance at getting in editorial as an intern--and if you're in school you should keep an eye out for those opportunities, and not wait till you're out of school to be on the job prowl. At my work now I've seen two editorial intern positions open up. In my last gig we hired 3 editorial interns. Two of the editors I worked with at the time also climbed up from an intern, and have since moved on to work at PR, or for a game company. Also it helps to have some kind of website or blog, as it's an easy way to gauge your writing style and ability.

 

[Torquill]

Can we drag silly school sports rivalries into this while we're at it?

LSU was the true 2003 national champion, not USC
(I'm so NOT actually a sports nerd, I probably got the damn year wrong )

 

[Iaido Sword]

Hang on, I'm just trying to give you an opinion from someone who works as a designer in the industry - I'm not trying to offend you.

But yes, a lot of people would hire someone with a traditonal degree and a good mod portfolio over someone who has just a portfolio from their game school.

That's most likely because there aren't a lot of these game schools to begin with. That may be the traditional way of doing it since there isn't any other way. It may also depend on your area if it has one of these schools.

Vancouver is the second most game studio heavy city in North America behind California, so the standards of this city is going to be a lot different than anywhere else.

You're right I don't know how your school works, especially since the industry is at your school yet so many of us aren't over there. PARADOX!

I was at a portfolio workshop where the industry goes to interview students. I had a conversation with an instructor. He told me that EA called up the school and asked for grad students with a GPA of 3.8 or better in a certain program. EA immediately interviewed and hired these grads.

You may think that sounds absolutely bonkers, but EA, Relic, Radical are a part of the instructing team at the school and make the programs. Students that graduate have done what those developers want to see, and therefore have no qualms on hiring based on GPA.

How are you so sure? Employers don't say to themselves, "Oh, this guy went to this game design school, he must be more qualified." They say, "Oh, this guy took the initiative and made his own game along with his friends, even though his school doesn't have a game program."

Do you know how a portfolio works?

Also, he's not saying that you can get in without experience, but that having a broader skill set is only a good thing.

You don't really know how game development works do you? To be able to imprint a personal touch on a game, you usually need to be an indie developer or a designer with the weight of Miyamoto or Kojima. Which is one thing I'd like to see changed in the industry.

They will say "Oh this guy went to this game design school that we had a part in instructing him." They won't take the guy with the friends because they have no way of qualifying it. They are qualifying it through the school.

You do get a broad set of skills in the school.

The days of Miyamoto and Kojima are dead. Not to say you can't be a designer from a programming field, but those old days where Miyamoto, Kojima, David Jaffe, Chris Taylor, and Will Wright became designers was because there was no schools training people for the game industry.

 

[Vustadumas]

So you pull people in without any kind of certification of their "talent"? If a guy went up to you and drew an awesome character, you'd just hire them on the spot after figuring they have a good personality through an interview?

That's a pretty bad way to go if the guy never learned about the depths of drawing.

That's why every applicant is given a test. Nothing is ever "given" to anyone. People with years and years of experience, and an awesome reel, at times, return incredibly awful tests, but then you get the kid fresh out of school that just completely nails it. And yes, credentials are important, but talent and the desire to continually top yourself are more important.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

You may think that sounds absolutely bonkers, but EA, Relic, Radical are a part of the instructing team at the school and make the programs. Students that graduate have done what those developers want to see, and therefore have no qualms on hiring based on GPA.

I don't doubt these companies have something setup, my own company has an internship program as well. But there's a big difference between "EA, Relic, Radical" and "the industry." Several of us in the thread are in the industry. Most of us are not at those companies.

 

[Iaido Sword]

That's why every applicant is given a test. Nothing is ever "given" to anyone. People with years and years of experience, and an awesome reel, at times, return incredibly awful tests, but then you get the kid fresh out of school that just completely nails it. And yes, credentials are important, but talent and the desire to continually top yourself are more important.

Aside from "talent", which I believe to be hard work, these schools provide the credentials.

I doubt the EA in my city makes a new guy go through a week training just to see if he's a fit. They have the schools do that because they are deeply connected with them.

I don't doubt these companies have something setup, my own company has an internship program as well. But there's a big difference between "EA, Relic, Radical" and "the industry." Several of us in the thread are in the industry. Most of us are not at those companies.

Would you rather call them industry leaders?

EA, THQ, Take2, Activision-Blizzard are enough to be the standard of the industry. You may not believe that they are the entire industry, but they are big enough that finding work in the game industry would be sending your resumes to them first.

A small studio may hire people in a different way, but these guys have been doing so for a longer time. I would consider them the industry (for North America).

 

[Laeth]

*snip*

What do you think a designer role actually entails by the way? Just curious to what the perception is from someone currently enrolled in a game school .

 

[sugaki]

The days of Miyamoto and Kojima are dead. Not to say you can't be a designer from a programming field, but those old days where Miyamoto, Kojima, David Jaffe, Chris Taylor, and Will Wright became designers was because there was no schools training people for the game industry.

It's hardly "dead." The reality is people can have pretty and fluffy qualifications, but suck when actually putting the pedal to the metal. There's plenty of it--you'll see an Ivy-league grad who makes some giant dissertation on Final Fantasy, only to struggle to find a job. Meanwhile Mr. Community College shows himself to be professional, determined and hard-working, and gets ahead in the industry.

Also, many Japanese game companies are still very old-fashioned (Koei to name one), and so to think the new games industry as being non-hierarchical would be a bit too optimistic.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

..."talent", which I believe to be hard work...

That just isn't true in any discipline. I don't know why you aren't being called out on it more.

 

[Flavius]

...

Her: Mmmm...that feels good.
You: No, no, no. That won't do at all!
Her: Yeahhhhhh. Wait, huh? What are you--
You: No, you see! What you need to do is twist this way, then move this over...*uhn*...here!
Her: Ow! Hey, wait a sec...

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Fact: Professional game development will most likely kill your love for games.

It will not kill your love of games, but often you will find that A) You don't have as much time to play them B) You play for a short time and try to distill as much from that session C) Don't feel like playing games after a hard days work.

If your love of games is killed, then you should leave the industry, because you won't have the passion to drive a vision or product, IMO.

Fact: QA does not mean you'll be "playing games all day". While it technically may be so, it is one of the hardest jobs in the industry. There's a GOOD reason why most of the QA people want to get out of QA. In my 6 years in the industry, I've only met one QA guy who was actually passionate about QA.

I think QA is where you separate the wheat from the chaff. Those that stick through it, probably have the passion and the want to go further, others were probably not cut out for the pace of the industry.

Fact: Game design schools/degrees/whatnot are useless and are considered to be shit in the industry. Nowhere have I ever interviewed someone or heard of an interviewer saying "Wow, this guy did this or that school! He must be good!"

I don't agree on this at all. Effort put in shows determination and passion. The final portfolio shows accrued talent that can be molded, as well as some of the basic skills needed: ability to communicate clearly across all disciplines, ability to work with others, ability to compromise, time management, responsibility.

Where people should be weary of are the actual schools themselves and look deeply into the actual programs themselves. The Art Institutes has a "game design" program but if you get down to it is more of a "game ART" program than design. Sure you get one or two quick courses in design but it's all about ART.

Other schools actually separate the various disciplines and you have to look at their programs. Digipen is great for programming and they really do turn out some of the best and brightest, oddly enough Columbia College Chicago has a very good program that separates all disciplines and in order to graduate students must work together to present an industry quality game that can be used as portfolio. Same thing with DePaul. They separate the various disciplines, then to graduate everyone has to do their part on a final game project

That paper does mean something, along with a solid portfolio of work, will get you more interviews than even modding can. Because at the end of the day you can say "I worked on and finished a GAME on a deadline (your graduation date)." If you are looking at school, you really have to drill at how their courses are structured and what are their requirements to graduate.

Fact: Mod development, while being good training for an actual job, is INCREDIBLY different from actually working at a game developer. There are no execs, for one. And most execs are the worst type of people in the world.

I agree. But not 100% on the execs. The problem with modding, imo, is that it doesn't show your ability to manage time or even hit deadlines. It's a mod, you have all the time in the world to do it in. You don't have milestones and various other deadlines that need to be met. Let alone you can probably do feature creep all you want and not look at brass tacks and say, "look this is essential to gameplay, this isn't so cut that feature." But you do gain knowledge in how to use a toolset, which is a big step.

Fact: Well, more personal than anything, but every game design job I've been at (usually smaller devs, not sure about bigger houses) basically has designers as glorified secretaries for an exec. I pretty much only need big boobs and a skirt and I'd be a secretary.

But that is what working at a small dev is about. You have to multi-task. You have to be the jack-of-all-trades. They can't afford a QA team, so guess who is QA, YOU. They can't afford a writer, guess who is going to end up with that duty? YOU. At a small dev, everyone has to do more than what their job title is and you LEARN other skillsets that can come in handy in the future. If you work for EA, yeah, you can be just a specific cog in a machine doing one thing. They can afford the burn rate.

If you just want to be a writer/creative guy, there are far a few companies that just have idea people. You will have to bring other skills to the table to justify your burn rate.

 

[Iaido Sword]

What do you think a designer role actually entails by the way? Just curious to what the perception is from someone currently enrolled in a game school .

I wrote up a bit on that.

Lead a team and know what each department does; critically analyze the game, find mistakes, and learn how to fix them; know what makes a good game and realistically achieve them in terms of resources; be damn professional about it.

I'm being trained in the fields of art animation, modeling, sound effects, scripting, and writing. It's good to know how every part of a game works in order to make a game or to critically assess someone's work.

That's why I think a regular joe with Bs in ComSci won't cut in as well because they don't know how to assess the artists, modelers, or sound designers.

 

[Zanboo]

I have no influence whatsoever... but hire this person. Frontline Force was one of the most underrated HL mods ever. Freaking DoD and CS...

Can we just skip to the important part? this.

 

[Furio53]

I wrote up a bit on that.

Lead a team and know what each department does; critically analyze the game, find mistakes, and learn how to fix them; know what makes a good game and realistically achieve them in terms of resources; be damn professional about it.

I'm being trained in the fields of art animation, modeling, sound effects, scripting, and writing. It's good to know how every part of a game works in order to make a game or to critically assess someone's work.

That's why I think a regular joe with Bs in ComSci won't cut in as well because they don't know how to assess the artists, modelers, or sound designers.

all that is secondary to one thing.

Find the fun.

people seem to lose sight of that and get caught up in everything else. Gameplay is #1.

 

[Torquill]

Can we just skip to the important part? this.

You're Hired! Here's mop and the cleaning products. Get to work!

 

[ianp622]

I wrote up a bit on that.

Lead a team and know what each department does; critically analyze the game, find mistakes, and learn how to fix them; know what makes a good game and realistically achieve them in terms of resources; be damn professional about it.

You forgot spreadsheets, paperwork, and more paperwork.

I'm being trained in the fields of art animation, modeling, sound effects, scripting, and writing. It's good to know how every part of a game works in order to make a game or to critically assess someone's work.

I don't know how you can say that when you said you don't need to know how to program. At least a basic knowledge would help you "know how every part of a game works".

That's why I think a regular joe with Bs in ComSci won't cut in as well because they don't know how to assess the artists, modelers, or sound designers.

How do you think they did it before they had game schools? I know an old guy that got a programming job with a Physics degree because they didn't have Computer Science courses back then. Also, companies usually have an art designer and sound designer to do what you think you need to do as a game designer.

 

[Vustadumas]

Aside from "talent", which I believe to be hard work, these schools provide the credentials.

I doubt the EA in my city makes a new guy go through a week training just to see if he's a fit. They have the schools do that because they are deeply connected with them.

Would you rather call them industry leaders?

EA, THQ, Take2, Activision-Blizzard are enough to be the standard of the industry. You may not believe that they are the entire industry, but they are big enough that finding work in the game industry would be sending your resumes to them first.

A small studio may hire people in a different way, but these guys have been doing so for a longer time. I would consider them the industry (for North America).

Hard work does not equal talent :lol And I wouldn't count on your school giving you any cred, at all. It's all what you put into it, not what school you went to. You can work hard at something, and still completely suck at it. I speak from the artistic side of dev, so talent is a very tangible thing. I see it all around me. And these guys work their asses off, as do I. I love what I do though, so all the "hard work" isn't much like work to me anyway.

Well, working for a major publisher and an independent dev, are very different. Atmosphere, culture and management styles are wildly different. And, you should send your resume to everyone.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Lead a team and know what each department does; critically analyze the game, find mistakes, and learn how to fix them; know what makes a good game and realistically achieve them in terms of resources; be damn professional about it.

Can you provide any more substance to what a systems designer should be expected to do? Or a level designer? And I can't see how one would be expected to take on a lead role right away (lead as in taking the lead on developing a particular feature? Or actual management and all the stuff that goes along with it such as personnel reviews and career development mentoring? or actual lead designer and all the extra responsibilities that go with that?), and most of the rest of what you describe can be applied to a number of job positions.

I'm being trained in the fields of art animation, modeling, sound effects, scripting, and writing. It's good to know how every part of a game works in order to make a game or to critically asses someone's work.

...WOW. I can understand doing that with any design-related stuff like scripting and writing, but trying to critically analyze another discipline's work? Sure you're being trained, but I don't think it's on the same level as the people doing it for a living. Outside of giving your opinion (which I hope is what you're referring to, again you're not being very clear), I wouldn't be trying to do the job of the art director or the audio lead. Knowledge of how each group contributes to the project is good and all, but I wouldn't overstep my jurisdiction.

That's why I think a regular joe with Bs in ComSci won't cut in as well because they don't know how to assess the artists, modelers, or sound designers.

Even just a month's worth of experience in the industry is enough time to get a handle on how the different disciplines contribute to a project and interact with each other. But regardless, that's a TERRIBLE example. Entry-level engineers just need to know how to program in their desired field well and while having some knowledge in related areas is a plus they'll pick up on it soon enough if they're smart and given the proper work culture.

But critically assessing another discipline's work if it's not related to their field is not something they should be expected to do. We're not talking about mid-level positions or higher here.

 

[Torquill]

I do think talent can be "learned" to a large degree. Perhaps talent is just a skill we haven't learned how to teach?

 

[bigmakstudios]

Are there any free or inexpensive tools available for independent development? If I'm determined, do you think it's possible for me to teach myself how to develop a simple game without any prior experience, aside from reading tutorials and the like? Also, does creating an acclaimed independent game ever draw interest from companies looking for prospective developers?

 

[flarkminator]

You don't really know how game development works do you? To be able to imprint a personal touch on a game, you usually need to be an indie developer or a designer with the weight of Miyamoto or Kojima. Which is one thing I'd like to see changed in the industry.

Every single person at my office gives their input every day...If they didn't give their input I'd think they were lazy and didn't care about the project.

A designer doesn't come up with the ideas (though at times they do). A designer should be taking the ideas of everybody (including their own) and fitting them into a single context so it all makes sense.

At the end of the day I have no idea who came up with WHAT anymore, and it doesn't even fucking matter. As long as the game is fun.

 

[blackadde]

So you pull people in without any kind of certification of their "talent"? If a guy went up to you and drew an awesome character, you'd just hire them on the spot after figuring they have a good personality through an interview?

if i was impressed with his/her portfolio, sure would. most of the creative directors i've worked under were self-taught. they had a good eye and a mountain of determination, not a piece of paper telling them who they are.

 

[Torquill]

Every single person at my office gives their input every day...If they didn't give their input I'd think they were lazy and didn't care about the project.

A designer doesn't come up with the ideas (though at times they do). A designer should be taking the ideas of everybody (including their own) and fitting them into a single context so it all makes sense.

At the end of the day I have no idea who came up with WHAT anymore, and it doesn't even fucking matter. As long as the game is fun.

Quoted for motherfucking truth.

 

[Torquill]

Are there any free or inexpensive tools available for independent development? If I'm determined, do you think it's possible for me to teach myself how to develop a simple game without any prior experience, aside from reading tutorials and the like? Also, does creating an acclaimed independent game ever draw interest from companies looking for prospective developers?

Game Maker
Torque Game Builder
XNA (maybe? no actual experience)

Just off the top of my head.


You can use Wintermute if you want to be the King of Limbo. (just a bad joke, not an actual recomendation )

 

[Woffls]

I've programmed in C# and C++, and done lots of work in Maya this year, but I just want to be able to peice it together and make something of it I was thinking of giving XNA a shot but it looks like you have to pay to develop on it. Hopefully I can find a job in development somewhere eventually if I build up a decent enough portfolio, but as long as i'm in the industry in the next 5 years I don't care what i'm doing.

I didn't want to go to Uni, I wanted to get a job doing anything and just spend my own time on improving at 3D design/animation. But there's only so far up you can go (hierarchically) without a degree. I'd really like to do an MSc in Games Design to make something of what i've already learned, only an extra year, but I'm struggling to be able to afford my 3rd year >_<

 

[dark steve]

I must admit, I have a fair amount of admiration for anyone who actively pursues a career in gaming. Personally having no measurable talents that are in demand, and realizing that by the time I'm in a position of influence neither the industry or gamers will benefit from my ideas....well, wanting to make video games seems like a rather depressing desire.

 

[ianp622]

Every single person at my office gives their input every day...If they didn't give their input I'd think they were lazy and didn't care about the project.

A designer doesn't come up with the ideas (though at times they do). A designer should be taking the ideas of everybody (including their own) and fitting them into a single context so it all makes sense.

At the end of the day I have no idea who came up with WHAT anymore, and it doesn't even fucking matter. As long as the game is fun.

Sorry, I was talking about designers and higher level ideas. I know that development teams often take suggestions from everyone on their team (I've heard Insomniac does this especially).

However, designers are not the equivalent of directors of a movie. They don't have a single vision where the role of the other employees is to fulfill it. From what I've heard, it's a combination of smaller ideas that contribute to the final product. When I say I'd like designers to have more of a personal touch, I want games to represent the character of the designer, much like a book reveals things about the author or a painting about the artist.

 

[Iaido Sword]

all that is secondary to one thing.

Find the fun.

people seem to lose sight of that and get caught up in everything else. Gameplay is #1.

It's also subjective. You can create something you think is fun, but making it work and selling it is the designers job.

You forgot spreadsheets, paperwork, and more paperwork.

Ah, yes, the documentation. The next level beyond QA that is the better landing spot as an entry job (because it pays better).

Hard work does not equal talent :lol

A guy who has no idea how to draw art will learn how to draw art and be "talented". If you disagree, tell me what is talent.

Can you provide any more substance to what an entry-level systems designer should be expected to do? Or a level designer? And I can't see how one would be expected to take on a lead role right away, and most of the rest of what you describe can be applied to a number of job positions.

What else do you want? A designer must know quite a bit of everything.

...WOW. I can understand doing that with any design-related stuff like scripting and writing, but trying to critically analyze another discipline's work? Sure you're being trained, but I don't think it's on the same level as the people doing it for a living. Outside of giving your opinion (which I hope is what you're referring to, again you're not being very clear), I wouldn't be trying to do the job of the art director or the audio lead. Knowledge of how each group contributes to the project is good and all, but I wouldn't overstep my jurisdiction.

Even just a month's worth of experience in the industry is enough time to get a handle on how the different disciplines contribute to a project and interact with each other. But regardless, that's a TERRIBLE example. Entry-level engineers just need to know how to program in their desired field well and while having some knowledge in related areas is a plus they'll pick up on it soon enough if they're smart and given the proper work culture.

But critically assessing another discipline's work if it's not related to their field is not something they should be expected to do. We're not talking about mid-level positions or higher here.

Kojima does that. He's able to tell the people in his company that something needs to look better or should work better. It works like that. That's what designers do.

If something is wrong, designers have to pick it up and find a fix, and if they didn't pick it up and the problem goes on retail, it's ultimately the designers fault for not picking it up. Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

If an artist screws up and puts in the wrong colour, the designer with proper training will be able to pick it up. If there's a bad sound effect at a certain stage, then the designer has to be able to hear the problem and fix it with the sound effect designers.

 

[beat]

One thing for Canadians to consider: a real degree from an accredited institution will probably make it easier to get a work visa if you ever want to work outside of Canada. (also might be an issue for Americans looking to work in Canada, I don't know for sure though.)

 

[Laeth]

*snip*

Most of that is so completely wrong, but I've honestly lost the will to post anymore. This thread has knackered me out. I'm sure someone else will step in .

 

[Cromulent_Word]

various things

again, i feel compelled to post even though i don't see the point.

i still fail to understand why you are so combative about opinions from people who have gone through more, shipped games, hired and fired, and succeed in the industry you feel you are guaranteed to enter.

learn from these people. disagree with them if you see fit, but there is no need to be argumentative about things that, as a student, you have not experienced first hand.

take what these people are saying to heart - they may very well be interviewing you.

 

[element]

I can tell you right now that schools such as Devry, AIS (game design), Full Sail, Guild Hall, and others, really don't do much for ya. It is 100% based on your portfolio and talent. The school doesn't make you a good artist if you aren't a good artist to begin with. In the design aspects, I'd say maybe 5% of graduates get 'design' jobs, and most because they probably could have gotten the job even without going to school.

Like someone said before, I have NEVER read a resume and said 'Hot damn, this guy graduated from Devry! I have to talk to him!'

A guy who has no idea how to draw art will learn how to draw art and be "talented". If you disagree, tell me what is talent.

I can tell you right now that what you learn in those schools is much more along the technical side. You can 'teach' anyone how to use Max or Maya, but the 'talented' people (the people who get hired) are the people who have a natural talent and comprehension of art. Things like how to conceptualize lighting, shadow, scale, shape, motion, and such. Every art director I have worked with would hire someone who is a good technical artist (can draw, paint, understands lighting/shadow) over someone who can model but can't draw at all.

Ah, yes, the documentation. The next level beyond QA that is the better landing spot as an entry job (because it pays better).

Production Assistant or Associate/Assistant Producer is not an entry level job.

 

[Laeth]

One thing for Canadians to consider: a real degree from an accredited institution will probably make it easier to get a work visa if you ever want to work outside of Canada. (also might be an issue for Americans looking to work in Canada, I don't know for sure though.)

That's true for most countries I think; one thing I must do - finish a degree of some kind .

 

[noonche]

A guy who has no idea how to draw art will learn how to draw art and be "talented". If you disagree, tell me what is talent.

Talent is the fact that even after spending more time on my work in a beginning modeling class than most of the other people I still had some of the worst looking stuff. They had it, I didn't. Natural aptitude exists. To insist otherwise is either naivete or willful ignorance.

 

[Iaido Sword]

again, i feel compelled to post even though i don't see the point.

i still fail to understand why you are so combative about opinions from people who have gone through more, shipped games, hired and fired, and succeed in the industry you feel you are guaranteed to enter.

learn from these people. disagree with them if you see fit, but there is no need to be argumentative about things that, as a student, you have not experienced first hand.

take what these people are saying to heart - they may very well be interviewing you.

Since, I hear this from the people who hire and fire in person.

I told you, my instructors are employees of the industry leaders. Not only that, they are the leads of their department for the games they make. Not only that, quite a few of them graduated through the same school.

Am I going to listen to anonymous posters, which I'm not saying some of you aren't the real deal, I rather listen to my instructors that I personally know and can talk to in person with the credentials of many games under their wing.

I can tell you right now that schools such as Devry, AIS (game design), Full Sail, Guild Hall, and others, really don't do much for ya. It is 100% based on your portfolio and talent. The school doesn't make you a good artist if you aren't a good artist to begin with. In the design aspects, I'd say maybe 5% of graduates get 'design' jobs, and most because they probably could have gotten the job even without going to school.

Like someone said before, I have NEVER read a resume and said 'Hot damn, this guy graduated from Devry! I have to talk to him!'

Please tell me how will you conjure up your miracle portfolio and talent without the training at those schools?

Oh, it's definitely higher than that from my school. They track their students' successes and have a 90% entry level rate from grad to work.

 

[Torquill]

Talent is the fact that even after spending more time on my work in a beginning modeling class than most of the other people I still had some of the worst looking stuff. They had it, I didn't. Natural aptitude exists. To insist otherwise is either naivete or willful ignorance.

I still like my skill that we dont know how to teach idea...
Or that a brain can just get hard-wired the wrong way to prevent a certain type of creative task.

I mean their brains weren't magic, they got that way somehow and I highly doubt it was 100% genetics.

I'm not trying to downplay natural talent, I just like musing .

 

[Wonderdog]

It's sad to admit, but a lot of "getting into the industry" is about knowing the right people.

 

[Torquill]

It's sad to admit, but a lot of "getting into the industry" is about knowing the right people.

Or getting lucky. Don't forget getting lucky.

 

[element]

Please tell me how will you conjure up your miracle portfolio and talent without the training at those schools?

I have been in the industry for 10 years now, and there wasn't schools that were geared to 'Game Design' or Game Art. Some of the most talented people I work with are home taught modelers, level designers, and animators.

Say I am looking at two animators, one who went to DeVry or some school and another that just understands motion and is home taught. I'd say most people would lean to the home taught guy due to his natural ability, even without school.

Oh, it's definitely higher than that from my school. They track their students' successes and have a 90% entry level rate from grad to work.

Is that 90% get a job in the industry or 90% get a job doing what they went to school for?
There is a huge difference between being hired as a Game Designer and a tester.

 

[Iaido Sword]

I've got work to do, so this will be my summary post of what I wanted to say.

Don't believe that if you don't have the talent, you won't make it into this industry.
Work hard, be disciplined, and be professional.

You will get there.

 

[noonche]

It's sad to admit, but a lot of "getting into the industry" is about knowing the right people.

Nah. I knew no one when I started. You can do it with talent and hard work.

 

[Cmagus]

......

 

[element]

Also people tend to have an idea in their heads what a 'designer' does, and typically most people are WAY off base. Especially since there are tons of different roles that fall under 'designer'. Typically kids that go off to school want to be Kojima, Miyamoto, or Jaffe. But really those types of 'design' roles are one in a million, not to mention take years to get to that point.
You have technical design, level design, level scripter, story designer, design director, and countless other positions. All have different roles, different technical requirements, and different meaning at different companies.

Also one of the problems with some of the students I have worked with is their 'set ways'. I was 'taught' it this way in school, but majority of time there will probably be a different way to do it when/if you get hired. This is where is where you will find the big difference between 'graduated' and 'hired'.

Nah. I knew no one when I started. You can do it with talent and hard work.

Really depends on the job position you are trying to get. The industry is very incestuous, as it is REALLY small.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Nah. I knew no one when I started. You can do it with talent and hard work.

I don't think you can counter that point with a single instance, though. He's right. If you know somebody working at a studio, you have an "in". You can get your resume referred and make sure HR knows about it. You can find out about jobs that likely aren't even posted.

Sure, people can get hired without knowing people already inside. That's how it happened for me. But I can tell you right now, you'll have a much better shot overall when you can talk directly with an employee - even if it's HR - compared to just submitting through an online form or catch-all address.

 

[element]

I don't think you can counter that point with a single instance, though. He's right. If you know somebody working at a studio, you have an "in". You can get your resume referred and make sure HR knows about it. You can find out about jobs that likely aren't even posted.

Sure, people can get hired without knowing people already inside. That's how it happened for me. But I can tell you right now, you'll have a much better shot overall when you can talk directly with an employee - even if it's HR - compared to just submitting through an online form or catch-all address.

My first job in the industry, I walked right into the company and handed them my resume and demo material and asked to speak to the recruiting rep if possible.

 

[Calen]

What I have gathered from this thread is that modding is a great way to test the waters. Is that true for programming? I am currently doing hardware programming and getting ready to take a few classes to brush up on C and C++ (I should have majored in CS but ended up doing programming anyway).

Any other advice for a would be programmer?

Make a complete game, even a simple one, from scratch in your spare time. Submit the source code for said game with any resumes you send for a coding position. This will make it 100x more likely you will be hired for an entry level position.

 

[sugaki]

I didn't play console games for ages, had a pretty old laptop that I played games on, had no connections. Saw a job posting that I didn't seem at all qualified for, knew nobody... now I'm in the industry, go figure. I didn't even expect to get a call back, and (!) missed the interview, lol.

Knowing somebody gets your foot in the door for sure, but after that if you don't deliver you'll be hard-pressed to get good work. A fair amount of people stumbled into the industry, at least in my circle of acquaintances.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

What else do you want? A designer must know quite a bit of everything.

There's a difference between stating vague overarching terms and specifics. What's your fundamental approach to creating game systems? What do you think is the best way to prototype a game feature? How do you establish player metrics for locomotion?

All I'm saying is that you're making it sound like you'll be learning everything you possibly will need to know about the job.

Kojima does that. He's able to tell the people in his company that something needs to look better or should work better. It works like that. That's what designers do.

No, that's what project leads or creative directors do. Designers work together with the artists and engineers to meet the vision set by that person.

If something is wrong, designers have to pick it up and find a fix, and if they didn't pick it up and the problem goes on retail, it's ultimately the designers fault for not picking it up. Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

You're severely underestimating other disciplines if you don't think people will not pick up on that sort of stuff, and it almost sounds like you're trying to put designers on a higher level to the rest of a game team. Designers have set jobs as well, and they aren't the ones dictating to the artists and engineers what to do. And no their job is NOT to find and solve all of the team's mistakes, that's production's job.

If an artist screws up and puts in the wrong colour, the designer with proper training will be able to pick it up. If there's a bad sound effect at a certain stage, then the designer has to be able to hear the problem and fix it with the sound effect designers.

ANYONE can do all that. In fact, there's a position for that - it's called QA.

I don't know how you got this sort of skewed vision of how development operates, but it sure doesn't work that way here or the other places I've worked at.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

I've programmed in C# and C++, and done lots of work in Maya this year, but I just want to be able to peice it together and make something of it I was thinking of giving XNA a shot but it looks like you have to pay to develop on it.

You don't have to pay to develop with XNA, that's just if you want to develop on 360 or Zune, I've used it exclusively on PC and strongly recommend it. If you have any programming experience (it's C#) then it's definitely the way to go above the much less flexible game maker tools.

There's a thread on GAF for just this sort of thing.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246011