Lostconfused
Member
Not watching bad shows is an even better idea.
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The Official Gundam Thread of Gunpla, Origins, and 35 Years of GUNDAMUUUU!
- Thread starter Snaku
- Start date
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Not watching bad shows is an even better idea.
I really shouldn't watch any more of Victory Gundam. I will watch more of Victory Gundam.
SousedLouse
Member
This is the UNDERSTANDING we share.
Speaking of Standing Up To The Victory...
GundamGAF Victory Gundam rewatch
Episode 21
I'd lump all these episodes into one recap, but episode 22 is the tipping point for at least one plot thread, so I think it deserves its own segment.
Anyway, onto episode 21.
The League Militaire gets one major win, and Jin starts frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog. Still, I suppose it's impressive that the LM managed to get a decisive victory for once, even if it's mostly because Tassilo bundled things pretty badly.
If Uso didn't have a good enough reason to hesitate when going in for the kill before the offensive against the Keilas Guilie, he does now. The more time he spends in space, the more that pesky snapping guitar string sound keeps popping up - and he's getting psycho-resonant feedback from the other pilots when they die on top of that.
Meanwhile, Marbet is finally starting to get pissed off at how she keeps getting the short end of the stick - but for now, she's going to have to learn how to deal with playing Worf for the sake of the group.
Katejina seems more than content to just chill out with Chronicle most of the time, and yet she actually puts her life on the line when she follows up on passing along information when she gets the chance. But who's side is she on?</heenan> If I had more faith in the show, I'd say she was playing both sides.
And can an S.O.S. signal from a dull, florescent light bulb really work in space?
GundamGAF Victory Gundam rewatch
Episode 22
So, Uso and co. decide to go looking through the wreckage after the battle against the Kelias Guilie, and who should he happen to stumble across? Godwald! Y'know, that gung-ho Lt. that nearly killed Uso the last time he went looking for survivors ? Yeah! That guy! Uso should really, really consider arguing against rescue duty for stuff like this, it just doesn't work out for him. He captures Uso, and once he realizes that Uso was actually an enemy pilot he is livid.
Apparently our irritable old acquaintance got waylaid on his way to the Keilas Guilie fleet; I guess the Abigor was on the fritz again. It was no pushover when Godwald actually got serious about fighting, though. After stressing that self-preservation is essential on the battlefield, and that you have to shoot to kill if you want to live, he... lets Uso go. Gee, you'd think that everyone on the bad guys' side would be depraved enough to blow a kid's brains out while they're got them bound in their arms. All these pesky taboos getting in the way. Uso takes a beating from the Abigor and two soldiers that decided to back up Godwald, and is bailed out by Junko and Oliver.
They meet again later on while escorting the Hiland kids, and Godwald manages to separate Uso from the rest of the group. He picks Uso apart, but Uso uses that newfound pressure and his piloting knowledge to gain the advantage, luring one of Godwald's teammates into his sights and letting Godwald take him out... but he can't take Godwald out himself. Quick draws a surprise attack against some guy he barely knows, even, but he STILL can't bring himself to kill someone he's familiar with. At this point, Godwald's even more pissed than before, so he presses forward and overwhelms Uso. Uso gets some assistance from the Hiland and Kasarelia kids, using it as a distraction that throws Godwald off balance and leaves him open for a kill shot which Uso FINALLY takes. Uso takes out his first mobile armor.
But wait! There's an escape pod! Uso thinks that Godwald's trying to escape, but no dice - he's still fixated on killing Uso, going as far as to make a beeline towards Uso's cockpit and opening it manually so he can plant a bullet between Uso's eyes. It's a crazy, desperate plan, and it would have worked if Uso didn't insist on carrying tools to a battleground. As it stands, Uso knocks him off-balance with a rope launcher and sends him drifting off into the debris...which ends up exploding and engulfing him in flames. And Uso gets to hear all of his thoughts, including a begrudging respect and a death scream.
If nothing else, Uso learned that the whole 'reluctant to kill' thing isn't doing anyone any favors.
Not even gonna touch all that stuff with Marbet and Junko.
Of all the time to beat the audience over the head with them being his female role models - they decide to do it now.
GundamGAF Victory Gundam rewatch
Episode 23
So Martina's fallen sick and the queen's bebopping around in the streets. I'm scared; did we end up crossing Seasickness with A Connecticut Yankee? And that Sandhoge...
I...
I just can't deal with this episode right now. Next time. I'll talk about it next time.
Victory Gundam 15
So for starters, I congratulate this episode for not killing the captain of the Space Shuttle the moment he bothered to open his mouth. That doesn't mean no one died this episode, though. Seriously, it's like the last four Harry Potter books, except, like, 50 episodes long. The death in this episode was kinda horrifying, or would be, if the whole thing wasn't hilariously stupid. Like the entire series. I mean really, so much in this episode was stupid beyond my capacity to understand. WHY WAS ODELO RIDING OUTSIDE THE GUNDAM'S COCKPIT? What did that kid need to go along for at all? How many goddamn times is Shakti gonna bitch about wanting to go home? She's already been home like, twice since this show started.
Oh, and Cronicle got promoted. Which may just be the worst decision the Zanscare ever made. Why would you promote a guy who hates your military operations and tries to sabotage them while they're under way and has done nothing but fail for the last fifteen episodes? It's like if someone decided to promote Lt. Poe and tried to pass it off as a good thing.
Seriously, I think Cronicle has already unhorsed Zeheart and Mr. Bushido for the title of worst Char ever. At least Bushido looked cool, and Zeheart, well there's no defending Zeheart at all, but Cronicle is just so bad.
Turn A Gundam 30
Dangum Space Hippies need to get off of my Earth lawn. Can't believe that woman accused the Earth of setting off the Nuke when the Nuke would've never blown if those stupid Red Team yutzes had never gotten involved. Also, poor Sochie, who seems to be doing the best she can to cope with her new state of affairs. It's admirable that she doesn't seem to have broken down yet. Especially because if her name was Uso Ebbing she'd be crying every time she cut herself on a piece of paper. Or if she was Shakti she'd just have gone nuts by now and started poking holes in the ground with a stick and bitching about Kaserelia. Not Sochie, though. Girl's made of tougher stuff than that, it seems. Anyway, everyone is going to Machupichu now to get the Tower of Babil to open the Way to the Moon so Golbez can summon the Giant of Babil and fight Cecil or something like that. Pretty excited to see what the Moon is like, since we've so far not seen what life on the moon is like at all, outside one very brief, vague flashback of Lt. Poe's.
So for starters, I congratulate this episode for not killing the captain of the Space Shuttle the moment he bothered to open his mouth. That doesn't mean no one died this episode, though. Seriously, it's like the last four Harry Potter books, except, like, 50 episodes long. The death in this episode was kinda horrifying, or would be, if the whole thing wasn't hilariously stupid. Like the entire series. I mean really, so much in this episode was stupid beyond my capacity to understand. WHY WAS ODELO RIDING OUTSIDE THE GUNDAM'S COCKPIT? What did that kid need to go along for at all? How many goddamn times is Shakti gonna bitch about wanting to go home? She's already been home like, twice since this show started.
Oh, and Cronicle got promoted. Which may just be the worst decision the Zanscare ever made. Why would you promote a guy who hates your military operations and tries to sabotage them while they're under way and has done nothing but fail for the last fifteen episodes? It's like if someone decided to promote Lt. Poe and tried to pass it off as a good thing.
Seriously, I think Cronicle has already unhorsed Zeheart and Mr. Bushido for the title of worst Char ever. At least Bushido looked cool, and Zeheart, well there's no defending Zeheart at all, but Cronicle is just so bad.
Turn A Gundam 30
Dangum Space Hippies need to get off of my Earth lawn. Can't believe that woman accused the Earth of setting off the Nuke when the Nuke would've never blown if those stupid Red Team yutzes had never gotten involved. Also, poor Sochie, who seems to be doing the best she can to cope with her new state of affairs. It's admirable that she doesn't seem to have broken down yet. Especially because if her name was Uso Ebbing she'd be crying every time she cut herself on a piece of paper. Or if she was Shakti she'd just have gone nuts by now and started poking holes in the ground with a stick and bitching about Kaserelia. Not Sochie, though. Girl's made of tougher stuff than that, it seems. Anyway, everyone is going to Machupichu now to get the Tower of Babil to open the Way to the Moon so Golbez can summon the Giant of Babil and fight Cecil or something like that. Pretty excited to see what the Moon is like, since we've so far not seen what life on the moon is like at all, outside one very brief, vague flashback of Lt. Poe's.
Megalosaro
Banned
Found this on the GameFAQS Gundam board and thought everyone here would enjoy it.
It's a Q&A with Tohru Furuya from a recent anime convention in Canada. Alot of non-Gundam stuff in there, but some Gundam here and there and is worth checking out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU4uU5U8P2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGn0joi4ztM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bNJHPETTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl-NkXVyCQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDMbd3QxwwI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPFNNx1yGnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjSXbW7BJqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCfYuIvoCmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqoweFDV_uk
It's a Q&A with Tohru Furuya from a recent anime convention in Canada. Alot of non-Gundam stuff in there, but some Gundam here and there and is worth checking out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU4uU5U8P2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGn0joi4ztM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bNJHPETTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl-NkXVyCQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDMbd3QxwwI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPFNNx1yGnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjSXbW7BJqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCfYuIvoCmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqoweFDV_uk
Thinking about V Gundam after reading these rewatch impressions, I have to say that I have always felt kinda sorry for Chronicle.
Like, he's a little bit of a dick sometimes, but he's fairly down to Earth at times too. What he did to Katejina slightly sucks, but Katejina was a little bit unhinged even before she started piloting. He gets kind of a bad rap for some stuff, like one mid-season incident where
It's like, he had enough decency to be a competent human being, but not enough common sense to think to himself "my military is fucking crazy and I see no good of really being a part of it."
Like, he's a little bit of a dick sometimes, but he's fairly down to Earth at times too. What he did to Katejina slightly sucks, but Katejina was a little bit unhinged even before she started piloting. He gets kind of a bad rap for some stuff, like one mid-season incident where
one of the Shrike team members tries to kill Queen Maria or blow herself up or some shit with a heavily damaged mobile suit, with a shitload of people around in combination with the fact that they were in a colony, and some of the main cast gets pissed because he had to go straight for the cockpit lest having people get killed. My memory is still a bit fuzzy on this episode.
It's like, he had enough decency to be a competent human being, but not enough common sense to think to himself "my military is fucking crazy and I see no good of really being a part of it."
I got to the 8th MS level in SRW OE recently. Really reminded me of what I did like about that series.
Turn A Gundam 32
Dianna Soriel mentions "Gyn Gingham" in this episode, and at first, that meant nothing to me. Then I remembered that very vaguely, the name "Jin Gehenam" has come up once or twice in Victory Gundam. No idea if there's a connection there or not, but Gundam Historia will explain it all to me! Anyway, most of this episode was dedicated to how hilariously stupid Lt. Poe is. At first it doesn't seem so, what with Lt. Harry making out with her to instantly heal her of the cold (I saw this in a video game recently, too!), but then the shit hits the fan and the Turn A is ripping her goddamn ship into a million pieces and only after she's sunk does Poe remark "Hey! I forgot I had an MS I could use to fight back with! Too late! Glubglub."
Aizo
Banned
Seed isn't horrible... yet.
Passive Assassin
Member
Turn A Gundam 1-25
:sdburton apparently. And I'm now a believer that this is one of the greatest Gundam shows ever.
Ep 26
Oh my days. Shit just got realer than real.
:sdburton apparently. And I'm now a believer that this is one of the greatest Gundam shows ever.
Ep 26
Oh my days. Shit just got realer than real.
amishpriest99
Member
That's rabbit hole I don't think anyone should go down. We'd end up debating how an N-Jammer Canceler³ Genesis Hyper Canceler would work. Or something.
Gold plating reflects lasers is what Gundam SEED Destiny taught me. If I build a Gundam out of gold, it will be immune to lasers. Why would I need an I-Field?
Victory Gundam 16
What is Shakti even doing with her life right now? Wasn't she with the LM? Why did she need to sneak onto this ship? Why is she dragging a baby and a dog along with her on this ship? How did Karlman magically manage not to fuck up her stealth mission? What is this girl's objective, anyway? To be the most amazingly pointless woman in the show? Cuz she's gonna have to fight Katejina for that something fierce. I just don't get like, why we're focusing on Shakti at all here. Nor do I get why Marbet risked capture when she or Uso could've gone out in the Gundam and fought. And why, oh God of Mecha, are we like, tripling the number of fucking kids in the cast? You know they're all gonna die anyway. And how long has it been since MSG that THE Gundam is considered a legend? Like I get that his exploits were legendary and all, but it cannot have been that long since 0079, right? Famous is a word people use to describe old war characters in the real world, but legendary usually belongs for things from a hell of a lot longer back. PLUS, it can't have been that long since the Jupiter Empire was defeated, during which conflict the Federation had mass produced F91 Gundams.
Megalosaro
Banned
UC 0153 is when Victory takes place. So about 70 years since First
Lostconfused
Member
Hold on a damn minute. Tohru Furuya was in Canada and no one told me about it?! What the hell!
Yeah, I dunno, I just feel like sometimes the way characters talk about the OYW its a thing from myth and legend already, and not something that happened in comparatively recent military history. Like no one ever goes "Once upon a time the Red Baron and the Sopwith Camel fought!" I mean, we romanticize the world wars and all, but straight up late UC acts like the Gundam and White Base were from the age of King Arthur, not WWI.
Megalosaro
Banned
I don't disagree, it is a little weird that they talk about it like it's so remote, but at the same time Victory Gundam seems much more anarchic than the situation was in previous Gundams. There Federation seems to barely exists, and a lot of the extra materials suggest the situation in the colonies was "every colony for itself", so maybe that degredation in global order is what caused stuff like the early UC wars to be referred to as legendary already?
Lostconfused
Member
Did the Red Baron have super powers? I am sure people would be talking about him a bit more if he literally performed super human feats and not just ones of skill and bravery. Literal super powers, stopped a giant rock from falling on earth with the power of emotion.
There's definitely a kind of yearning for the past in Victory - the motorbike guy is a prime example, but the entire Zanscare Empire's desire to live on Earth in a kind of neo-agrarian (?) society, the revival of the guillotine, and the obsession with wheels and rotors in their mechs are all manifestations of it. Following from that, the lionization of the first Gundam/OYW can be seen as its own version of mythologizing of the past.
Really though, I think the idea of "Gundam" as myth had its roots in 0079... it's literally called the devil by Zeon and it's important to remember that the devastation of the OYW is unmatched, even by the time of Victory. Also while it's kinda been dicked up by the spinoffs, I think every time a Gundam is built, it's very much consciously trying to recall the Gundam myth - even by 0087 (a mere 7 years after the end of the war!), when the Mk. II is built.
Really though, I think the idea of "Gundam" as myth had its roots in 0079... it's literally called the devil by Zeon and it's important to remember that the devastation of the OYW is unmatched, even by the time of Victory. Also while it's kinda been dicked up by the spinoffs, I think every time a Gundam is built, it's very much consciously trying to recall the Gundam myth - even by 0087 (a mere 7 years after the end of the war!), when the Mk. II is built.
Passive Assassin
Member
Right, but the problem isn't that people are talking about the Gundam. In fact, I'd argue the problem I'm having here is that they're not talking about it enough, or that they're talking about it, I dunno, wrong?
It's the context of treating a Gundam as something legendary that bugs me. Technically, people have been doing this since Gundam Unicorn, and it doesn't really stand up, you know? It's been less than 100 years since the first Gundams were used during the OYW, and given the technology of the era, you'd think their powers would be as chronicled and documented as everything. Amuro Ray and Char Aznable were real people for whom there is considerable, substantial evidence, not people from ages long ago, like King Arthur, Gilgamesh or Adam and Eve. These are two guys who lived not even 100 years ago. Reasonably speaking, their biographies should be bestsellers, their names well-taught in history classes. They should be at least as well known to soldiers of the Zanscare Empire as the Red Baron or Gen. Patton are to soldiers today. They shouldn't carry any myth about them when they lived so recently.
As to Gundams, it confuses the hell out of me that people are flipping out in Unicorn, Crossbone, and now Victory when they encounter Gundams. Gundam Class Mobile suits were employed in every key military conflict from 0079-0089. Nobody in Unicorn should be surprised that the Federation would have developed another Gundam. The Federation had mass-produced F91 units, and yet their own soldiers were spooked when they saw that the Crossbone Vanguard had their own Gundams. Frankly I'm surprised there weren't MORE Gundams. Something as popular as the Gundam, and as notably involved in EVERY major military conflict of the last CENTURY shouldn't be a matter of legend. Nobody goes "Oh gosh! How crazy was it that there were TANKS in WWI? And fighter planes!" when Tanks and fighter planes are still in frequent use today. So when the League Militaire deploys the Victory-Type Gundams and the Zanscare empire soldiers treat it as a thing of myth, rather than a frequent threat the Federation has used repeatedly to quell Spacenoid empires, I'm just kinda confused. Has it been all that long since the Federation MP'd the F91?
Well, I don't deny that when the Federation is building a Gundam, or when anyone else in UC is, they're looking to recreate Amuro's success with THE Gundam during the OYW. It's just that I don't think that it fits as something legendary. As in, during the OYW, after Amuro's initial successes, the Federation rolls out the 08th MS team and orders the construction of the Alex, because they saw that the Gundam was an effective weapon. After that, though, I dunno. I mean, the ones in Stardust Memory show the Federation was still invested in making Gundams (and its like, the one time that Zeon ever uses a Gundam), and the Titans roll out the Mk. II and Psycho Gundams, with the AEUG producing the Hyaku Shiki, Zeta and ZZ Gundams. Unicorn I dunno, because I don't know if the Unicorn was old or new, but the F91 should've just been a sign that Gundams were a Federation standard model, like Zakus or Doms.
I think I just don't like that the Gundam's rep as a super weapon is treated as a thing of myth at the same time.
I'm willing to accept that I'm not gonna like Shakti. Since I don't foresee her pulling Karlman off her spine anytime soon, I never really counted on liking her. I'm just concerned with whether my opinion of Uso and, to a lesser extent, Cronicle will improve.
I mean, I guess so, but its still only been 20 years since the Federation was around to fight with the Jupiter Empire. Strikes me as odd that a government that had won every major military conflict it had ever entered into would unravel in 20 years, but then again, stranger things have happened in real life.
GOUF is the best mook suit in the whole series.
Megalosaro
Banned
That's the thing though, I'd strongly argue that the Federation never recovered from the One Year War, and with each successive conflict, the Federation had become weaker and weaker until sometime around UC 150, when it is basically non-existent.
I dunno that I can agree with that assessment, though, since by the Gryps Conflict the Federation had total control of the whole Earth Sphere region, and it certainly seemed more powerful. After the end of the Gryps Conflict, during the events of ZZ it was obviously much weaker, since Haman had almost total control of the Earth. But then Neo Zeon is defeated twice by Judau and Amuro respectively, so that by the time of Unicorn, it definitely seems that the Federation has a high level of control over the world and its surroundings, since the conflict in Unicorn is freeing the Colonies from Federation rule.
Post Unicorn, though, I could see why that might be the case, since the Federation seems much more lax than it did prior, getting caught off-guard by Cosmo Babylonia, the Jovian Empire and the Zanscare Empire one after another.
The problem, though, is that seems typical of the Federation. It conquered Earth, got caught off-guard by Zeon, beats them with its Gundams, takes a break, gets caught off-guard during Stardust Memory, goes into over-load with the Titans, when they go down, it gets caught defenseless by Haman and Neo-Zeon. The Federation (well, technically the AEUG) defeats her, and the Federation takes a break until Char pops up. A Gundam bails them out again, they take a break until Unicorn, where the latest Neo-Zeon-Remnants catch them off-guard, and where presumably a Gundam ends the issue and the Federation remains, taking a break until Cosmo Babylonia.
I suppose that almost a full-century of nigh-constant warfare could economically break an empire the size of the Earth Federation, but its hard to say, because every time the Federation goes into panic mode, a Gundam pops up, crushes the Spacer Empire, and there's the Federation, sitting pretty with defeated foes for it to tax the fuck out of to keep it going till the next time that a Gundam reminds Spacers that they cannot fight the Federation.
I mean, in almost a full century, Gundam-Class MSes have served, in one way or another, to uphold Federation Rule no less than eight times before Victory starts up. The Earth Federation has to govern an empire spanning Earth, the Moon, the Colonies, Mars, the Belt, and Jupiter at the very least. That's an insane task to govern. On the other hand, it also has economic control over three planets, their moons, and the Asteroid Belt. Mobile Suit production has to be a simultaneously costly and lucrative business, and since Unicorn paints Anaheim as being in the Federation's pocket on that one, I dunno. I could see the Federation as being very powerful and just really lazy.
Megalosaro
Banned
I think the Earth Federation only has to govern Earth + Colonies + Moon (though the moon is mostly self governed). Also keep in mind that Side 6 is mostly independent as well.
Disagree with your assessment Amuro and the Gundam really had that big of an impact on the war. Yeah, he chalked a decent number of kills and managed to kill two Zabis (not to mention stop a nuclear attack during Odessa), but White Base and Gundam barely saw action in Odessa, which was intended to basically be the Stalingrad of the OYW, and in the counter-offensive at the end of the war, the White Base's role was as a distraction since Zeon (over-estimated) its value to the war effort. The OYW was won by conventional military vehicles such as tanks and airplanes, as well as GMs.
Regarding the Gryps conflict, the existence of the Titans in the first place is evidence of the Federation's decline. The Titans are a relatively small faction (as is Neo-Zeon for that matter), and the fact that Jamitov and Bask were able to strong arm their way to prominence speaks volumes of the Federation's abilities to maintain control.
The same thing with the Neo Zeon Wars. The Federation didn't do shit during either of them. In ZZ Gundam, they LET NEO ZEON DROP A GOD DAMN COLONY because they are so apathetic at that point. A terrorist group has to be the one to stand up to Neo Zeon. Same with Char's rebellion. Londo Bell again isn't a particularly big task force. Just a handful of battle ships and a few dozen mobile suits. It was the only federation unit to see action during Char's counterattack. The Earth Federation government seemed somewhat concerned, but they pretty much just moved their families out of the damage zones of Char's attacks. The civillian government of course negotiated a surrender, but they weren't that concerned with his attacks since they didn't mobilize any units besides Londo Bell (and even then they acted like Londo Bell was a nuisance more than an asset during the conflict). When another unit DOES mobilize towards the end of the movie, it is handled like "Do you think we should go help Londo Bell? Yeah, I guess so..." sort of deal.
Unicorn is a little weird because admittedly, it does break the trend of portraying the Earth Federation as being negligent and incompetent to a certain degree, but their complacency is still there. Think about who the main faction who has been working to prevent Full Frontal from obtaining the Box is. It's the Vist Foundation, because they don't want to give up their control over the Federation. There are Federation politicians shown, but they're all under her thumb. Once again, Londo Bell is acting on it's own
F91 is a classic example of the Federation weakened. There is a scene in the movie after Cosmos Babylonia where they're watching a news broadcast and the reporter is interviewing a Federation representative. He says something along the lines of "We're not going to do anything because we're on vacation. We'll let the colony itself sort things out." Does that seem like something a government that was in full control would say?
And of course Victory, the Federation doesn't do shit the whole series.
tl;dr version. After the OYW, the Federation gets more and more gradually weaker and more unwilling to deal with more and more conflicts, until it just doesn't do anything at all.
Disagree with your assessment Amuro and the Gundam really had that big of an impact on the war. Yeah, he chalked a decent number of kills and managed to kill two Zabis (not to mention stop a nuclear attack during Odessa), but White Base and Gundam barely saw action in Odessa, which was intended to basically be the Stalingrad of the OYW, and in the counter-offensive at the end of the war, the White Base's role was as a distraction since Zeon (over-estimated) its value to the war effort. The OYW was won by conventional military vehicles such as tanks and airplanes, as well as GMs.
Regarding the Gryps conflict, the existence of the Titans in the first place is evidence of the Federation's decline. The Titans are a relatively small faction (as is Neo-Zeon for that matter), and the fact that Jamitov and Bask were able to strong arm their way to prominence speaks volumes of the Federation's abilities to maintain control.
The same thing with the Neo Zeon Wars. The Federation didn't do shit during either of them. In ZZ Gundam, they LET NEO ZEON DROP A GOD DAMN COLONY because they are so apathetic at that point. A terrorist group has to be the one to stand up to Neo Zeon. Same with Char's rebellion. Londo Bell again isn't a particularly big task force. Just a handful of battle ships and a few dozen mobile suits. It was the only federation unit to see action during Char's counterattack. The Earth Federation government seemed somewhat concerned, but they pretty much just moved their families out of the damage zones of Char's attacks. The civillian government of course negotiated a surrender, but they weren't that concerned with his attacks since they didn't mobilize any units besides Londo Bell (and even then they acted like Londo Bell was a nuisance more than an asset during the conflict). When another unit DOES mobilize towards the end of the movie, it is handled like "Do you think we should go help Londo Bell? Yeah, I guess so..." sort of deal.
Unicorn is a little weird because admittedly, it does break the trend of portraying the Earth Federation as being negligent and incompetent to a certain degree, but their complacency is still there. Think about who the main faction who has been working to prevent Full Frontal from obtaining the Box is. It's the Vist Foundation, because they don't want to give up their control over the Federation. There are Federation politicians shown, but they're all under her thumb. Once again, Londo Bell is acting on it's own
F91 is a classic example of the Federation weakened. There is a scene in the movie after Cosmos Babylonia where they're watching a news broadcast and the reporter is interviewing a Federation representative. He says something along the lines of "We're not going to do anything because we're on vacation. We'll let the colony itself sort things out." Does that seem like something a government that was in full control would say?
And of course Victory, the Federation doesn't do shit the whole series.
tl;dr version. After the OYW, the Federation gets more and more gradually weaker and more unwilling to deal with more and more conflicts, until it just doesn't do anything at all.
I don't know that just Amuro was a huge influence. I'd say Amuro and his Gundam didn't become a huge deal till Char's Counterattack. It's more that the Gundam had proven itself an incredibly wise investment to the Federation, which is why they deployed them in the 08th MS Team and commissioned the construction of the Alex. The Gundam was a useful mech, and they wanted to see if they could get more for it.
I'd say that it would actually have been Stardust Memory that cemented the importance of Gundams, though, since two Gundam units became so key during those events.
I still think that Gryps doesn't demonstrate a weak Federation, though, if you view the Titans as a part of the Federation. It's true that there were odds between regular Federation soldiers and Titans soldiers, but to anyone on the outside of that, the Federation would be one large body, under the Titans' aegis. Their power was such that it took Char's successful anti-Titan's PR campaign to get people to see they weren't good guys. I mean, Char had to give that big speech just to get people to realize they had to leave the Earth and that Titans were bad.
I think people might not consider Mars-to-Jupiter as Earth property because there isn't much out that way, and because Jupiter was frequently allied with the Zeon or against the Earth. That said, supposing that the Federation was powerful, then their various Gundam-lead campaigns would mean that they held more or less absolute control over the inhabited Solar System. They'd defeated the Zeon, the Cosmo Babylonia, the Jovians, the Neo Zeon and more or less placated the AEUG.
I'm not saying they were Almighty, the Federation was obviously very complacent, and corrupt, but I think those were their primary problems, and not a lack of funding or power. In both the ZZ and CCA Neo-Zeon conflicts, the Earth Federation is never portrayed as being incapable of preventing these drops, just unwilling to. Although it IS worth pointing out that their weakness in ZZ is because the Titans, their primary military force, were defeated just last year. The Federation is normally just corrupt, complacent, or incompetent in my view. It's rarely incapable.
I'd say that it would actually have been Stardust Memory that cemented the importance of Gundams, though, since two Gundam units became so key during those events.
I still think that Gryps doesn't demonstrate a weak Federation, though, if you view the Titans as a part of the Federation. It's true that there were odds between regular Federation soldiers and Titans soldiers, but to anyone on the outside of that, the Federation would be one large body, under the Titans' aegis. Their power was such that it took Char's successful anti-Titan's PR campaign to get people to see they weren't good guys. I mean, Char had to give that big speech just to get people to realize they had to leave the Earth and that Titans were bad.
I think people might not consider Mars-to-Jupiter as Earth property because there isn't much out that way, and because Jupiter was frequently allied with the Zeon or against the Earth. That said, supposing that the Federation was powerful, then their various Gundam-lead campaigns would mean that they held more or less absolute control over the inhabited Solar System. They'd defeated the Zeon, the Cosmo Babylonia, the Jovians, the Neo Zeon and more or less placated the AEUG.
I'm not saying they were Almighty, the Federation was obviously very complacent, and corrupt, but I think those were their primary problems, and not a lack of funding or power. In both the ZZ and CCA Neo-Zeon conflicts, the Earth Federation is never portrayed as being incapable of preventing these drops, just unwilling to. Although it IS worth pointing out that their weakness in ZZ is because the Titans, their primary military force, were defeated just last year. The Federation is normally just corrupt, complacent, or incompetent in my view. It's rarely incapable.
Megalosaro
Banned
You're right, the Federation does view the Gundam as useful, but it's a prototype. It's ungodly expensive to mass produce as is, so they strip them down, and what you get is the GM line. No one really knows what GM stands for, but it's widely speculated to mean "Gundam Massproduced". Again, no one really knows.
You see this happen with other Gundams too. The Zeta got two mass productions. The ReGZ, and the ReZEL.
The Ground Gundams weren't "true" Gundams. Canon-wise, they are basically GMs made from spare parts from the V Project. Out of canon wise, they probably just didn't want to make a Gundam show without an actual Gundam, which is why they didn't just have it be about a team of GM pilots like it should have been.
The Alex and the GP suits are again all prototypes. Not sure why they didn't implement some of the Newtype systems from the Alex, or GM-ify it. Maybe because the war was over and the Federation contracted Anaheim Electronics to develop their mobile suits instead of building them in house. Who knows. As for the GP projects, you probably would have seen mass production models of those suits had it not been for the fact they were black listed after the series ended.
Curiously the ZZ as far as I know was never "GM"ified and they explain that the reason they didn't "GM"ify the Nu was because after CCA, Anaheim presumeably abandoned psychoframe technology.
Things change a little bit after CCA/Unicorn. SNRI comes onto the scene and they do end up massproducing some of their Gundam models. The F91 got a mass production. I can't remember who made the Crossbones, I THINK it was AE, but I'm not sure. They treated it like Gundams were in the past. As overly expensive prototypes. It got a stripped down "GM" version too, the Flint.
I think the League Militaire built the V and V2 in house, and from the get go they were designed for mass production. Of course their factory was blown up early on so it wasn't mass produced as much as it could have been though. But it was meant to be relatively inexpensive to construct.
While we are the on topic of this time period, it is worth noting that the Side 2 branch of SNRI was seized by the Zanscare government and renamed BESPA, so if you're ever confused by what the heck a BESPA is, it's the company that makes their MSes. They just call a lot of their suits BESPAs similar to how we call every model of a particular company's cars "Toyotas" or "Hondas" or something. Just something I thought was interesting.
Back to the matter on hand
1- I don't really know if Gundams cemented their importance during Operation Stardust. If anything, they were more concerned about the nuke the GP02 had, as well as it's capabilities to launch said nuke then the fact it was a Gundam. Again, Gundam is generally just a term various people use for a supped up prototype. It's half propaganda at a certain point and half continuation of a production line. I think it could have been a Zaku with a nuclear bazooka and they would have been just as concerned about it.
2 - You're right, technically the Titans are a part of the Federation. But they're a minority group that has managed to dominate control from the majority group. The fact that they were able to do this is because the federation was inept. The ones who do care, such as the Bright Noas, joined groups like the AEUG and Karaba. Just because to most people they would appear one in the same doesn't mean they were one in the same. On the note of the AEUG, that is one of those terms like UN Spacey that should have been changed with the localization. The Japanese phrase for AEUG is Han Chikyuu Renpou Soshiki. Sure, Chikyuu Renpou can be translated as "Earth Union", just as it can be translated as United Nations. They changed UN Spacey to EFSF in 1999, why not change AEUG to something like AEFO (Ay Ef Oh), Anti-Earth Federation Organization? It kind of lost the the connotation it was supposed to have. I digress. If you want to be literal, yeah the AEUG is an anti-federation terrorist group. Yeah, their name says so itself. But if you look at their objectives, they solely target the Titans. Several members are actually very much pro-Federation.
2 - The Titans were not the Federation's main military power. They were just an anti-Zeon task force, which also dealt with dissidence in general. There are plenty of non-Titans Federation soldiers portrayed throughout Zeta and every time, the Titans were quick to exert their dominance. Most of those non-Titans soldiers were relatively un-effected by the larger conflict and would have been perfectly able to deal with Neo-Zeon had they been ordered to. Why do you think it was such a big deal when the Federation turned on the Titans? Because the Titan's power only lasted as long as the Federation willingly gave it to them. If the whole of the Federation's forces had turned on the Titans, they would have been squashed faster than they already were.
3 - Jupiter doesn't just ally with Zeon. They ally with whoever they think will cause destabilization within the Earth sphere. In UC 0079, that happened to be the Principality of Zeon. In UC 0087, it was the Titans. Their goal of course was to weaken the Federation enough so they could come in and finish the job.
Seriously though, don't you think it's odd that fought tooth and nail in a war that wiped out half of humanity due to just one side declaring independence suddenly just doesn't give a shit right afterwards and pretty much doesn't get involved in any other conflicts after the OYW, other than maintaining its control over the Earth itself? Sure it sends out token gestures here and there, but for the most part, the Earth Federation pretty much just turtles up on Earth while maintaining a very tenuous control of the colonies. Governments don't suddenly become apathetic on that scale. There HAS to be more going on for them to basically maintain a relatively small space force for the amount of people they govern in space while focusing only on the Earth.
If what happened in F91 happened in UC 0079, it would have triggered a war on the proportions of the OYW. A colony declaring independence caused the Federation to shit themselves just 40 years ago and suddenly they're okay with saying "not a big deal, we're on vacation"?
And again, in 0153, nearly every Side has declared independence. The only reason Victory focuses on Side 2 is because a) Zanscare is actively occupying territory on Earth and b) Zanscare is a brutal theocracy.
Consider Zeon itself:
During the One Year War, Zeon was at it's fullest strength. They were an entire Side. After the War, it was divided into two groups: Axis Zeon and the Delaz fleet. Both were Zabi-ist factions. Axis was the bigger of the two groups, since it is an entire asteroid colony with a much bigger fleet. Both are defeated.
Both Axis and Delaz were already pretty much the hardest of the hardcore from the old Principality. Char's Neo Zeon is even more so. It's a fleet of about 50 or so ships according to CCA. After CCA, you're essentially down to the end of the line. One main ship, the Rewloola, and maybe a handful of small camouflaged freighters.
There is one more Neo Zeon movement after the Laplace Incident, the Oldsmobile Army, but it's taken as seriously as a group of old men who got drunk one night and started prattling on about the Good Ol' Days in the Confederacy while waving guns around. Dangerous, but quickly taken care of without breaking too much of a sweat.
The same thing that happened to Zeon after the One Year War happened to the Federation. The only difference is since the Earth Federation is 32x bigger than Zeon to fall apart.
You see this happen with other Gundams too. The Zeta got two mass productions. The ReGZ, and the ReZEL.
The Ground Gundams weren't "true" Gundams. Canon-wise, they are basically GMs made from spare parts from the V Project. Out of canon wise, they probably just didn't want to make a Gundam show without an actual Gundam, which is why they didn't just have it be about a team of GM pilots like it should have been.
The Alex and the GP suits are again all prototypes. Not sure why they didn't implement some of the Newtype systems from the Alex, or GM-ify it. Maybe because the war was over and the Federation contracted Anaheim Electronics to develop their mobile suits instead of building them in house. Who knows. As for the GP projects, you probably would have seen mass production models of those suits had it not been for the fact they were black listed after the series ended.
Curiously the ZZ as far as I know was never "GM"ified and they explain that the reason they didn't "GM"ify the Nu was because after CCA, Anaheim presumeably abandoned psychoframe technology.
Things change a little bit after CCA/Unicorn. SNRI comes onto the scene and they do end up massproducing some of their Gundam models. The F91 got a mass production. I can't remember who made the Crossbones, I THINK it was AE, but I'm not sure. They treated it like Gundams were in the past. As overly expensive prototypes. It got a stripped down "GM" version too, the Flint.
I think the League Militaire built the V and V2 in house, and from the get go they were designed for mass production. Of course their factory was blown up early on so it wasn't mass produced as much as it could have been though. But it was meant to be relatively inexpensive to construct.
While we are the on topic of this time period, it is worth noting that the Side 2 branch of SNRI was seized by the Zanscare government and renamed BESPA, so if you're ever confused by what the heck a BESPA is, it's the company that makes their MSes. They just call a lot of their suits BESPAs similar to how we call every model of a particular company's cars "Toyotas" or "Hondas" or something. Just something I thought was interesting.
Back to the matter on hand
1- I don't really know if Gundams cemented their importance during Operation Stardust. If anything, they were more concerned about the nuke the GP02 had, as well as it's capabilities to launch said nuke then the fact it was a Gundam. Again, Gundam is generally just a term various people use for a supped up prototype. It's half propaganda at a certain point and half continuation of a production line. I think it could have been a Zaku with a nuclear bazooka and they would have been just as concerned about it.
2 - You're right, technically the Titans are a part of the Federation. But they're a minority group that has managed to dominate control from the majority group. The fact that they were able to do this is because the federation was inept. The ones who do care, such as the Bright Noas, joined groups like the AEUG and Karaba. Just because to most people they would appear one in the same doesn't mean they were one in the same. On the note of the AEUG, that is one of those terms like UN Spacey that should have been changed with the localization. The Japanese phrase for AEUG is Han Chikyuu Renpou Soshiki. Sure, Chikyuu Renpou can be translated as "Earth Union", just as it can be translated as United Nations. They changed UN Spacey to EFSF in 1999, why not change AEUG to something like AEFO (Ay Ef Oh), Anti-Earth Federation Organization? It kind of lost the the connotation it was supposed to have. I digress. If you want to be literal, yeah the AEUG is an anti-federation terrorist group. Yeah, their name says so itself. But if you look at their objectives, they solely target the Titans. Several members are actually very much pro-Federation.
2 - The Titans were not the Federation's main military power. They were just an anti-Zeon task force, which also dealt with dissidence in general. There are plenty of non-Titans Federation soldiers portrayed throughout Zeta and every time, the Titans were quick to exert their dominance. Most of those non-Titans soldiers were relatively un-effected by the larger conflict and would have been perfectly able to deal with Neo-Zeon had they been ordered to. Why do you think it was such a big deal when the Federation turned on the Titans? Because the Titan's power only lasted as long as the Federation willingly gave it to them. If the whole of the Federation's forces had turned on the Titans, they would have been squashed faster than they already were.
3 - Jupiter doesn't just ally with Zeon. They ally with whoever they think will cause destabilization within the Earth sphere. In UC 0079, that happened to be the Principality of Zeon. In UC 0087, it was the Titans. Their goal of course was to weaken the Federation enough so they could come in and finish the job.
Seriously though, don't you think it's odd that fought tooth and nail in a war that wiped out half of humanity due to just one side declaring independence suddenly just doesn't give a shit right afterwards and pretty much doesn't get involved in any other conflicts after the OYW, other than maintaining its control over the Earth itself? Sure it sends out token gestures here and there, but for the most part, the Earth Federation pretty much just turtles up on Earth while maintaining a very tenuous control of the colonies. Governments don't suddenly become apathetic on that scale. There HAS to be more going on for them to basically maintain a relatively small space force for the amount of people they govern in space while focusing only on the Earth.
If what happened in F91 happened in UC 0079, it would have triggered a war on the proportions of the OYW. A colony declaring independence caused the Federation to shit themselves just 40 years ago and suddenly they're okay with saying "not a big deal, we're on vacation"?
And again, in 0153, nearly every Side has declared independence. The only reason Victory focuses on Side 2 is because a) Zanscare is actively occupying territory on Earth and b) Zanscare is a brutal theocracy.
Consider Zeon itself:
During the One Year War, Zeon was at it's fullest strength. They were an entire Side. After the War, it was divided into two groups: Axis Zeon and the Delaz fleet. Both were Zabi-ist factions. Axis was the bigger of the two groups, since it is an entire asteroid colony with a much bigger fleet. Both are defeated.
Both Axis and Delaz were already pretty much the hardest of the hardcore from the old Principality. Char's Neo Zeon is even more so. It's a fleet of about 50 or so ships according to CCA. After CCA, you're essentially down to the end of the line. One main ship, the Rewloola, and maybe a handful of small camouflaged freighters.
There is one more Neo Zeon movement after the Laplace Incident, the Oldsmobile Army, but it's taken as seriously as a group of old men who got drunk one night and started prattling on about the Good Ol' Days in the Confederacy while waving guns around. Dangerous, but quickly taken care of without breaking too much of a sweat.
The same thing that happened to Zeon after the One Year War happened to the Federation. The only difference is since the Earth Federation is 32x bigger than Zeon to fall apart.
EvilKatarn
Member
Corvo, are you gonna catch up with our Victory rewatch thingy or are you just gonna blast through this series?
Passive Assassin
Member
Turn a Gundam 36
The best mutiny ever.
Turn a Gundam 38
Damn Harry. Cold blooded. The thirst is real.
The best mutiny ever.
Turn a Gundam 38
Damn Harry. Cold blooded. The thirst is real.
Dedication Through Light
Member
Gundam Build Fighters PV 2 (with English subtitles).
Though Reiji would be a bit more experienced, but I guess not. Looks great and they are two I can get behind. Tatsuya Yuki and those sparkles...nice!
Whoever is doing the music is making it sound so good, definitely hyped for this gundam.
Though Reiji would be a bit more experienced, but I guess not. Looks great and they are two I can get behind. Tatsuya Yuki and those sparkles...nice!
Whoever is doing the music is making it sound so good, definitely hyped for this gundam.
Passive Assassin
Member
Turn A Gundam 38-41
Best series ever.
Turn A Gundam 43
So far the story has been pretty well done. The world building is great.
Ep 44
Holy shit. Did Harry just do that? That was cold blooded.
Best series ever.
Turn A Gundam 43
Nanomachines!
Ep 44
Holy shit. Did Harry just do that? That was cold blooded.
This PV looks way better than when they first announced it. It's nice to see "classic" designs used to the action scenes. Good animation too. The character designs still look garbage to me, and it seems like the story will be more "serious" than Gunpla Builders, making it dumber and less fun, but at least it looks waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Gundam AGE. Lol.
Will watch a few episodes and see if I want to drop it.
Lostconfused
Member
Man that PV was weird. It looks like super generic shonen stuff with random cuts of giant robot fightan thrown in for no apparent reason.
Megalosaro
Banned
I don't know why, but I can't help but get super excited every time I see new Gundam Build Fighters stuff.
I dunno, I think the show will just be a lot of fun.
I dunno, I think the show will just be a lot of fun.
Dedication Through Light
Member
Thats weird? That sounds like the perfect combination and formula for success. Im excited.
There's honestly nothing wrong with a light-hearted Gundam show if that is the honest premise from the beginning (like the SD series). Gunpla isn't advertising itself as a mainline series (at least, I don't think so) so I think it's harmless.
That actually looks quite good, i'm looking forward to it.
How far is everyone on Victory? I'm just trying to get it done before I go back to school in two weeks. When I start school I kinda wanted to have all Gundam done besides X.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
The giant robot fights are a representation of the Gunpla battles.
What's a "mainline series" for Gundam anyway? Every Gundam series has its own continuity these days and there's along one major Gundam series broadcasting on TV at any given time. For the next year or so, Gundam Build Fighters is it. It has many core staff members and animators who worked on Gundam AGE, and before that Gundam 00.
Gundam Build Fighters PV 2 (with English subtitles).
Though Reiji would be a bit more experienced, but I guess not. Looks great and they are two I can get behind. Tatsuya Yuki and those sparkles...nice!
Whoever is doing the music is making it sound so good, definitely hyped for this gundam.
The plot of this show sounds like the greatest blatant commercial for gunpla of all time.
I'll be damned if the fights don't look like they're gonna be hot, though.
EvilKatarn
Member
I think we were at 23 or something. You'll find out when sunday kicks in I guess!
I'm saving Stardust, ZZ, 0080 and X for when I'm done with V. Not sure I'll ever watch Wing and AGE.
Wing isn't so bad. I mean, the dub is terrible, but in a good way, and the characters are whatever, but Wing has some of the best designs in the series. Like, Epyon is amazing.
AGE you should skip. Just, skip it. No good mechs, no good characters, and it isn't worth waiting through fifty episodes to see Hino's perfect angel become Gundam Hitler. Stardust is so bad. Not in the same sense as other things, just like, "Why was this made?" bad. It's like it wants to be Metal Gear Gundam, but instead its more like, I dunno. It's just dumb and bad.
ZZ and 0080 are great, though.
If Gundam GAF is only watching Victory at a rate of 1 ep a week then yeah, I'm eventually going to pass you all. I cannot prolong this experience any longer than 2 weeks.
Megalosaro
Banned
I think they're watching 3 a week.
Are you at least enjoying Victory's soundtrack, Corvo? It'd be a shame if you didn't. It is probably one of the things I most liked about the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfakB5f9APs
http://youtu.be/PNP4xha7Q0s
http://youtu.be/VC1G2Z9Q4NI
http://youtu.be/K-SbDcSX7Hk
Regarding the Wing designs, they're not bad, but was the series that really started the trend of making the suits too flashy for my tastes. The main Gundams are the worst offenders in this regard, the biggest offender being Deathscythe Hell and Wing Zero Custom. Leos and Virgos are kind of cool though
Are you at least enjoying Victory's soundtrack, Corvo? It'd be a shame if you didn't. It is probably one of the things I most liked about the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfakB5f9APs
http://youtu.be/PNP4xha7Q0s
http://youtu.be/VC1G2Z9Q4NI
http://youtu.be/K-SbDcSX7Hk
Regarding the Wing designs, they're not bad, but was the series that really started the trend of making the suits too flashy for my tastes. The main Gundams are the worst offenders in this regard, the biggest offender being Deathscythe Hell and Wing Zero Custom. Leos and Virgos are kind of cool though
Top Gun Gundam, more accuretely.
EvilKatarn
Member
I've heard the animation in Stardust is amazing. If the story is terrible then I guess I'll just put on some music and cry over the fact that I'm nearing the end of Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
I hope that at least Stardust isn't another retread of the same old gundam-ass gundam story which I'm getting quite sick of. It's like, that's basically F91 in a nutshell but at least that had the decency to look gorgeous and it had cool characters and suits.
About the rewatch - we're doing three a week. Monday, Wednesday, Sunday.
I hope that at least Stardust isn't another retread of the same old gundam-ass gundam story which I'm getting quite sick of. It's like, that's basically F91 in a nutshell but at least that had the decency to look gorgeous and it had cool characters and suits.
About the rewatch - we're doing three a week. Monday, Wednesday, Sunday.
Passive Assassin
Member
Turn a Gundam 46
I didn't know Barney Gumble joined the Moonrace military.
I didn't know Barney Gumble joined the Moonrace military.
Megalosaro
Banned
It's Feds vs Zekes shortly after the OYW, so if you're sick of that then you may hate it. It is a bit different though but it's hard to say how without really going into spoiler territories.
Ah, in terms of things I am liking about Victory (because I realize I tend to leave the impression that I don't like anything about a show), I am enjoying the soundtrack and also the battles themselves. Stupid and melodramatic as I feel they play up the constant deaths in the show to be, the fights are still quite nice, I think. The show has the look and feel of a good ol' 90s anime, and I'm quite enjoying that. The atmosphere, so to speak. The background areas in particular are really nice.
And the song that played when
Fuala Griffon was "exiled" into Space was nice.
As to Wing, I think I've already said I'm a big fan of the Wing Zero Custom, but I confess I'm biased since Wing was the first Gundam I ever saw and probably one of the first mecha anime I ever watched. All of Endless Waltz' designs are gold in my book. Stepping away from the Gundams themselves, though, I really appreciate the other mobile suits in the series. The Leo and Virgo are great mook suits, and the Mercurius, Vayate, and Tallgeese (III is my favorite) are all stellar designs, I think.
I don't know that I've ever seen Top Gun, but my passing familiarity with it allows me to agree with this all the same.
I'll probably still just push through it. I need to get it done because I want to finish off UC Gundam before I start watching through Getter, Mazinger, and Macross all in one go.
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