Yeah just the MG (Gold psycho frame for now) and Gundam Girl Banshee for online exclusives.
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The Official Gundam Thread of Gunpla, Origins, and 35 Years of GUNDAMUUUU!
- Thread starter Snaku
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TastyOreoFriend
Member
Oh no man she did PLENTY of crying in SEED, such as when
she first found out about the Gundams in Heliopolis, or the time she was alone naked in that cave with Athrun, or when she was talking to Athrun because she thought he killed Kira, or when Orb burned up the first time, or when Athrun was going to blow himself up at the end, or when they find Kira drifting in space at the end
Cagalli is crying no matter which SEED your talking about lol
RSLAEV
Member
OK so I'm watching the UC Gundam in chronological order. I started with the original 0079 series, which was pretty epic (although it ended with some real left-field shit). After that I (re)watched War in the pocket, which was just as brutal as I remembered, and now...now I'm watching the 08th MS team for the first time....
....Hooooly fucking shit I hate this show. Every character is a goddamn nob-end and if they aren't yelling dumb bullshit at each other they're disregarding protocol for no-goddamn good reason and landing in the shit because of it. It isn't funny enough to be comedy, it isn't compelling enough to be drama, and it isn't dynamic enough to be action. It's just dumb and it's annoying and whenever I think I'm just able to sit back and watch it without being too annoyed THIS character shows up:
Fuck YOUUUUUUUU!
....Hooooly fucking shit I hate this show. Every character is a goddamn nob-end and if they aren't yelling dumb bullshit at each other they're disregarding protocol for no-goddamn good reason and landing in the shit because of it. It isn't funny enough to be comedy, it isn't compelling enough to be drama, and it isn't dynamic enough to be action. It's just dumb and it's annoying and whenever I think I'm just able to sit back and watch it without being too annoyed THIS character shows up:
Fuck YOUUUUUUUU!
08th MS Team is best Gundam.
:lol, well fuck.
I think SEED would have been a much better -- or at least more interesting -- show if Kira
:lol, well fuck.
I think SEED would have been a much better -- or at least more interesting -- show if Kira
had died during his battle with Athrun halfway through the series, when he self-destructs his Gundam. Shifting focus to Athrun as the lead afterward, and using Kira's death to pivot him away from ZAFT, would have been for an least ballsy plot development.
Instead, Kira survives being point-blank vaporized.
Instead, Kira survives being point-blank vaporized.
I hate everything about this post. 08th is god, kiki 4 lyfe
Yes, but "Cagalli is Crying" refers specifically to Kira and Athrun's argument in Destiny where Athrun is successfully pointing out to Kira that showing up to fights and beating up both sides isn't doing anyone any good and instead of Kira being a goddamn human being and saying "Look man. Some guys showed up at MY house and tried to kill MY girlfriend, and I'm gonna smack heads till I find out who did it." he says "Cagalli is Crying." and magically wins the conversation.
Which is triple dumb because Athrun and Cagali like, break up at this point.
OK so I'm watching the UC Gundam in chronological order. I started with the original 0079 series, which was pretty epic (although it ended with some real left-field shit). After that I (re)watched War in the pocket, which was just as brutal as I remembered, and now...now I'm watching the 08th MS team for the first time....
....Hooooly fucking shit I hate this show. Every character is a goddamn nob-end and if they aren't yelling dumb bullshit at each other they're disregarding protocol for no-goddamn good reason and landing in the shit because of it. It isn't funny enough to be comedy, it isn't compelling enough to be drama, and it isn't dynamic enough to be action. It's just dumb and it's annoying and whenever I think I'm just able to sit back and watch it without being too annoyed THIS character shows up:
Fuck YOUUUUUUUU!
Man if you're not enjoying it now you're gonna hate it by the end. I had mixed feelings but I enjoy the early parts of 08th MS when it's mecha Vietnam.
If Athrun had been the MC it would've been awesome, but Kira could've been salvaged by doing 2 things, I think:
1) cut everything about being an ultimate coordinator and his backstory relating him to Cagali. All that did was give him super powers and make him Luke Skywalker. 2) Make him either stop dating other guys' girlfriends or make him fucking apologize for taking Sai's girlfriend and then beating him up. That shit was wrong.
The penultimate episode has the best fight in the franchise, bar none.
I know a lot of people hate the Shiro/Aina subplot, but it doesn't really bother me. There are plenty of contrived, starcrossed lover stories in Gundam and I think 08th ends up with one of the better ones because of how self-aware it is.
yes, I agree that Kira would have been a much better protagonist if they had ditched everything about his character and wrote someone completely different.
The penultimate episode has the best fight in the franchise, bar none.
yes, I agree that Kira would have been a much better protagonist if they had ditched everything about his character and wrote someone completely different.
Well, not everything. When he was a nerdy computer kid who happened to be good at piloting and terrible with relationships he wasn't that bad. He was a fairly standard protagonist. And while I'm sure no one but me feels this way, when he first shows up in Destiny as a suffering some major PTSD from wholesale slaughtering armies he was fairly acceptable, too.
Really it was just the whole "we need to give him MORE super powers and make him Luke Skywalker." that blew.
Zeta Gundam 18
So, on the one hand, this is actually another great episode. There's something about Hong Kong where, when Mecha anime goes there, it gets great. Like the finale of FMP TSR takes place in Hong Kong. The Hong Kong arc of G Gundam is splendid and this is actually a fairly strong arc here, too. Kamille does some growing up, Amuro doesn't behave like a lazy coward, and it has Mirai and Four going on. And Four actually behaves a good deal like a teenage girl most of the time.
Two complaints, though: 1) I'm kinda pissed that they refer to Mirai as the wife of White Base Captain Bright Noa. Like, are we forgetting that Mirai was the HELMSWOMAN OF THE WHITE BASE? Like, girl is hardly JUST Bright's wife. She was a key player aboard the White Base and when Bright couldn't do his job Mirai's the one who stepped up to the plate. She and Sayla were the women who kept that boat floating alongside Bright and Ryu.
2) Beltorchika is the BIGGEST BITCH EVER. Like, what kind of moron does she have to be? "These people are neither AEUG nor Karaba, why are you going to such lengths to help them?" HELLO? Maybe because Mirai is a dear friend of Amuro's who went through the One Year War with him and forged familial bonds that some dippy newcomer like you who has wormed her way into this show despite all good reasons could not ever possibly understand? Then she picks a fight with Kamille for following them when Kamille was ORDERED TO DO SO and he points out "If Amuro leaves without telling anyone, it causes huge problems. Especially if he's with YOU."
Man I hate you Beltorchika.
Dedication Through Light
Member
Gundam Seed HD Remaster Episode 47(BD)
Visually they still made a few baffling choices to remaster some scenes on the BD, like a few scenes when they were just showing the cabin area and nothing happened was redone which was pointless.
. But I loved the above moment with one of the Gundams.
Sadly this episode was just too brutal and too emotional. I had to pause quite a few times
.
Gundam Seed HD is still a strong entry in the gundams for me, and is going to have a pretty glorious finale. I love their ideology moments this episode, it makes everything feel more grande and intellectually stimulating, and complements all the fancy flashing fighting.
Visually they still made a few baffling choices to remaster some scenes on the BD, like a few scenes when they were just showing the cabin area and nothing happened was redone which was pointless.
though fortunately they did do a good job with the one when Azrael and Natarle was left there
Sadly this episode was just too brutal and too emotional. I had to pause quite a few times
for Shani was defeated so unfairly and died by Yzak I think. I thought he would stick around with Clotho and co into the next Seed Destiny. Clotho is still around fortunately but hes like the last remaining fighter from that ship. Perhaps he can escape defeat by calming down and going with Athrun or so. Athrun couldnt kill him I hope.
Most saddening was the Natarle moments because she really did a good job becoming a captain this whole way and then having to deal with Azrael the whole time. To be called names, slapped, and then shot is a horrific way to die but at least through the end she still thought of the safety of her crew and even the right ideals. Most memorable femChar death award is due to her.
Most saddening was the Natarle moments because she really did a good job becoming a captain this whole way and then having to deal with Azrael the whole time. To be called names, slapped, and then shot is a horrific way to die but at least through the end she still thought of the safety of her crew and even the right ideals. Most memorable femChar death award is due to her.
Gundam Seed HD is still a strong entry in the gundams for me, and is going to have a pretty glorious finale. I love their ideology moments this episode, it makes everything feel more grande and intellectually stimulating, and complements all the fancy flashing fighting.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
At least we agree on this about Zeta.
Megalosaro
Banned
eh...what?
First Gundam: Amazing ending, especially considering the show was cut 10 episodes short. Judging by the outline, the show seems better for ending when it did and how it did. I'm not the biggest evangelist of the movie trilogy, but the movie version is even better. YES MY SWEET YES MY SWEETEST. I WANNA GET BACK WHERE YOU ARE. OMG so much feels.
Zeta Gundam: Didn't really have an ending since it led immediately into ZZ Gundam
ZZ Gundam: Pretty decent ending. All of its loose threads wrapped and Judau got a happy ending
CCA: Emotionally awesome ending
F91: Pretty bad ending in terms of the fact that Cosmos Babylonia was still perfectly fine at the end. If they had continued the story, it would have been a pretty good ending for a part 1 film.
Victory Gundam: Katejina got what she deserved. Otherwise, yeah it was a bit weak.
G Gundam: Great ending
Wing/Endless Waltz. TV wing had a mediocre ending. Endless Waltz was dumb and so was its ending
X: Unsatisfying ending but understandable considering it was effectively cancelled and they had to pull and ending out of their ass with the time they had left.
Turn A: Events are a bit rushed, but satisfying. Ending sequence is amazing
Seed: "okay" ending
Seed Destiny: Dumb ending
OO+movie: really dumb ending
AGE: pretty dumb ending
0080: I don't even want to talk about this ending. It fucks with me too much and I want to start balling holy shit it's too late i'm already balling. I hate you people for making me feel things
0083: This show was essentially designed FOR it's ending, or rather the events that happen at the very end. There is some dumb shit at the end, particularly involving Nina, but Gato's last stand is fairly cool and the ending montage is memorable.
08th MS team: pretty fucking dumb.
Igloo: Dumb. They all should have died
Igloo 2: Even dumber.
Gunpla Builders: A charming end. I'm not really sure what the metaphor they were going for was supposed to mean, but hey, I guess it wasn't bad. The whole OVA is only 45 minutes long, so the fact I was as emotionally invested in this commercial as I was is pretty impressive. But seriously, both Gunpla Builders and Gundam Build Fighters are both pretty legit.
We'll find out tomorrow if GBF will have a good ending. I don't think it will be too bad. There are some loose threads hanging for sure that I don't think we'll ever see a resolution on.
As for Unicorn, well, we'll see about that.
HG Banshee Norn was just released on the 22nd of this month!
In other news I was at another used shop in town and came across something I hadn't seen before. Was cheap so I picked it up:
Same size as a reular HG gunpla box but just plain white with only this sticker on the side.
'Contest limited, HGUC RGM-79 clear version'
No idea what contest this was from. i'm guessing it was a reward of some sort or given away to attendees.
Pretty hard not to agree to this point, haha. This time through, though, I'm better able to separate my feelings for the show from my feelings for her, at least. First time through all I could think about was how she was horrible. Knowing Gundam women get WORSE than Beltorchika helps. But man, everything about her character is terrible.
At the end of the episode she's freaking out, blaming Mirai for everything that just happened, and when Amuro is like "CALM THE FUCK DOWN" she's all "I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAAAAAAND."
Part of me wants to believe Tomino was actually making fun of Amuro fangirls with Beltorchika but this has to have been decades before that kind of thing went on in anime.
CCA's ending was bullshit trash, like more or less the entire film's plot. It concluded nothing, axed characters and left the film's central problem literally hanging above the Earth. Zeta Gundam's lead in to ZZ was more conclusive than that shit.
Megalosaro
Banned
How was CCA's central problem not resolved. Char's Neo Zeon was held together entirely by his cult of personality. He's dead. His fleet took some heavy damage. it wasn't unimaginable that the whole thing fell apart after the failure to drop Axis on Earth.
As for Axis itself. The thing was blasted into two parts. One part was in orbit, the other pushed back by the psychoframe glow. The Rewloola wasn't in any condition to regroup and drive the pieces back (which might not have even been possible at that point, since the asteroid was no longer intact anyway). besides, by that point the rest of the federation had gotten involved in the clean up operation and were coming in to whoop some zeke ass.
The threat was resolved. All the remnants of Char's forces could do is retreat (at best)
As for Axis itself. The thing was blasted into two parts. One part was in orbit, the other pushed back by the psychoframe glow. The Rewloola wasn't in any condition to regroup and drive the pieces back (which might not have even been possible at that point, since the asteroid was no longer intact anyway). besides, by that point the rest of the federation had gotten involved in the clean up operation and were coming in to whoop some zeke ass.
The threat was resolved. All the remnants of Char's forces could do is retreat (at best)
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
It did though...
Everyone went into the final fight with their own goals and self interests and in the end no one gets anything out of it. Most of the characters die bitter, pointless deaths and in the end even though the Titans are wiped out, Haman is able to revive Zeon so really nothing has changed.
It's a great ending, that is not only thematically consistent with the rest of the show but also completely flips audience expectations of what a Gundam finale should be.(based on the ending of the original series where good guys win bad guys lose war over everyone goes home.)
I don't think Zeta's ending is any less of one just because ZZ happens to begin a new story right on its tail
Nothing is resolved. Neo Zeon is still there. It comes up again in that little ditty called Unicorn. Axis is still right above the Earth and all Char's people need to do is drop it. Amuro and Char disappear because fuck who needs reasons when you can newtype newtype newtype. The film doesn't even SHOW them die. It just shows magical rainbow times above Earth. And ends abruptly. Right there.
Nevermind that none of what happened in CCA should have ever happened to begin with. Dropping meteors on Earth is COMPLETELY at odds with the ideology he and the AEUG endorse in Zeta, and there's NOTHING in between to indicate ANY reasoning for his sudden turn around. There's no need for him and Amuro to have any kind of resolution because they have NO BEEF in Zeta. They meet, Char's like "I came here to laugh at you. Oh wait, no I didn't. MOVE THE FUCK ON WITH YOUR LIFE." Heck, at numerous points Char's like "Hey Amuro why don't you come with me and help fix this shit?" There's absolutely nothing to resolve there.
Then the movie's like "HELLO AND FUCK YOU, WELCOME TO HALFWAY THROUGH THE STORY. PLEASE ENJOY QUESS BEING A BITCH FOR TWO HOURS."
And the movie ends and what are we left with? Neo Zeon still exists. Axis is fucking ten inches from destroying life on Earth. Amuro and Char aren't even shown dying. In fact their fates are left are entirely open because the movie HAS NO ENDING. It just STOPS after rainbow magic time begins.
If CCA had had an ending that had resolved ANYTHING Unicorn wouldn't even exist because ALL Unicorn does is chase Laplace's box and clean up the shitstorm of a mess that was CCA's so-called ending.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I sometimes imagine a world where CCA wasn't greenlighted and ZZ was a better show because of it
A world without Glemy Toto
A Utopian society
A world without Glemy Toto
A Utopian society
Megalosaro
Banned
For 20 years people were perfectly fine with the Neo Zeon stuff being concluded with CCA. The assumption was that the rebellion was put down with the Axis stuff ending in failure. Unicorn disrupted that thought process by saying "actually a very small handful of Neo Zeon forces still exist." If Unicorn didn't exist, would you assume that Neo Zeon still existed. Probably not.
Frontal's Neo Zeon is like the very VERY last splinter of the Zeon holdouts. Yeah there is some oldsmobile crap, but they barely count.
Even taking Unicorn's information on Frontal's/Neo Zeon's forces into account, it's pretty doubtful they'd have the resources to try again. And also you ignored my point: Both pieces of Axis are essentially immobile now. Londo Bell blew Axis into two parts. Both were pushed away. In order to move Axis, they relied on Axis's massive engines. The only reason the back end kept falling was because it was already in the Earth's gravity well.
And like I said, by the end of the movie, the rest of the Earth Federation's forces were coming to help Londo Bell. The only reason Char stood a chance in the movie as it was was because Londo Bell, which is a VERY small task force, was the only unit fighting Char's troops. There is a scene towards the end when troops from Side 1 or 2 start to arrive, implying the the rest of the Federation was now going to intervene.
And in any case, you make two wrong assumptions
1 - You take Quattro's words and actions in Zeta at face value
2- You act like CCA takes place RIGHT after ZZ Gundam
With regards to 1. Never trust a Char. Quattro is unique in Char's development and characterization. I would argue that he is a broken man in Zeta. Both the original Tomino novelization and Gundam the Origin both portray Char as basically brainwashed by Jimba Ral into planning the assassination of the Zabis.
His entire life goal from the time he's about 9 until he is 20, his entire focus is on killing specific people. Yeah, he's briefly distracted by Lalah and Amuro, but by the end of the One Year War, they're all dead and his ONE GOAL in life is complete. By the end of the war, he has no purpose, and Lalah, his one hope for the future, is dead.
Zeta Char is this kind of directionless Char. He's basically in the midst of a quarter-life crisis and doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. You can't trust philosophical musings from a person who doesn't even know himself.
If there is one thing that is universally consistent with Char though, it is his hatred for the Earth Federation. Every single faction he has been a part of is a spacenoid liberation movement. You say the AEUG doesn't jive with his goals? Well it's still a spacenoid liberation movement. It's full name name in Japanese is Han Chikyuu Renpou Soshiki, which literally translates to Anti-Earth Federation Organization. To be honest, they should have changed the AEUG's name in the dub to reflect western consistency for names. Something like AEFO. But fans would flip their shit over a change like that. Still, they've changed group names before, like the Spacey to the EFSF.
Any my point is this. Char has ALWAYS been a part of anti-earth factions. Sure the AEUG doesn't drop shit on people, but that doesn't mean Char was never against it.
Point 2 is this: You act like CCA happens right after ZZ Gundam. Six or seven years pass between when Char disappears in Zeta Gundam, and when he reappears in CCA. That is a long time for someone to brood one something. Who knows what the fuck he told himself after he disappeared from the AEUG. Don't you think he would have returned to the AEUG if he wasn't up to something though? Instead he slinks off somewhere. Some sources have him kidnapped Mineva Zabi from Neo Zeon after the end of the Gryps War (thus explaining her disappearance and the use of the double). Either way, with his Dakar speech, he has outted himself as Zeon Deikun's son. No doubt his father's supporters would seek him out and put pressure on him to lead humanity. various sources have portrayed Zeon Deikun's followers as pretty pushy.
Also: Don't forget Sayla at the end of ZZ. She has a connection to Char of course. Both are newtypes, and furthermore no one knows Char like she does. Right away, she warns Bright that Char is probably up to something and he needs to be on his guard. For whatever reason, he doesn't, but of course Char is able to form his group.
So yeah, I agree that CCA should have given some explanation as to why Char acts the way he does in CCA beyond the lalah stuff, but to be honest there are pieces there that make it so it's not so much of a jump.
Frontal's Neo Zeon is like the very VERY last splinter of the Zeon holdouts. Yeah there is some oldsmobile crap, but they barely count.
Even taking Unicorn's information on Frontal's/Neo Zeon's forces into account, it's pretty doubtful they'd have the resources to try again. And also you ignored my point: Both pieces of Axis are essentially immobile now. Londo Bell blew Axis into two parts. Both were pushed away. In order to move Axis, they relied on Axis's massive engines. The only reason the back end kept falling was because it was already in the Earth's gravity well.
And like I said, by the end of the movie, the rest of the Earth Federation's forces were coming to help Londo Bell. The only reason Char stood a chance in the movie as it was was because Londo Bell, which is a VERY small task force, was the only unit fighting Char's troops. There is a scene towards the end when troops from Side 1 or 2 start to arrive, implying the the rest of the Federation was now going to intervene.
And in any case, you make two wrong assumptions
1 - You take Quattro's words and actions in Zeta at face value
2- You act like CCA takes place RIGHT after ZZ Gundam
With regards to 1. Never trust a Char. Quattro is unique in Char's development and characterization. I would argue that he is a broken man in Zeta. Both the original Tomino novelization and Gundam the Origin both portray Char as basically brainwashed by Jimba Ral into planning the assassination of the Zabis.
His entire life goal from the time he's about 9 until he is 20, his entire focus is on killing specific people. Yeah, he's briefly distracted by Lalah and Amuro, but by the end of the One Year War, they're all dead and his ONE GOAL in life is complete. By the end of the war, he has no purpose, and Lalah, his one hope for the future, is dead.
Zeta Char is this kind of directionless Char. He's basically in the midst of a quarter-life crisis and doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. You can't trust philosophical musings from a person who doesn't even know himself.
If there is one thing that is universally consistent with Char though, it is his hatred for the Earth Federation. Every single faction he has been a part of is a spacenoid liberation movement. You say the AEUG doesn't jive with his goals? Well it's still a spacenoid liberation movement. It's full name name in Japanese is Han Chikyuu Renpou Soshiki, which literally translates to Anti-Earth Federation Organization. To be honest, they should have changed the AEUG's name in the dub to reflect western consistency for names. Something like AEFO. But fans would flip their shit over a change like that. Still, they've changed group names before, like the Spacey to the EFSF.
Any my point is this. Char has ALWAYS been a part of anti-earth factions. Sure the AEUG doesn't drop shit on people, but that doesn't mean Char was never against it.
Point 2 is this: You act like CCA happens right after ZZ Gundam. Six or seven years pass between when Char disappears in Zeta Gundam, and when he reappears in CCA. That is a long time for someone to brood one something. Who knows what the fuck he told himself after he disappeared from the AEUG. Don't you think he would have returned to the AEUG if he wasn't up to something though? Instead he slinks off somewhere. Some sources have him kidnapped Mineva Zabi from Neo Zeon after the end of the Gryps War (thus explaining her disappearance and the use of the double). Either way, with his Dakar speech, he has outted himself as Zeon Deikun's son. No doubt his father's supporters would seek him out and put pressure on him to lead humanity. various sources have portrayed Zeon Deikun's followers as pretty pushy.
Also: Don't forget Sayla at the end of ZZ. She has a connection to Char of course. Both are newtypes, and furthermore no one knows Char like she does. Right away, she warns Bright that Char is probably up to something and he needs to be on his guard. For whatever reason, he doesn't, but of course Char is able to form his group.
So yeah, I agree that CCA should have given some explanation as to why Char acts the way he does in CCA beyond the lalah stuff, but to be honest there are pieces there that make it so it's not so much of a jump.
No but see, those are specifically the problems I'm talking about. If CCA's ending had been at all conclusive, nobody would've had to assume anything. You don't have to assume anything when MSG ends. CCA ends and we're told nothing about Neo-Zeon and what comes next. You can argue till you're blue in the face that they must have shattered because of this or that but the plain fact remains that that didn't happen because it did not happen.
And I'm not assuming CCA takes place right after ZZ, I'm faulting it for that. Viewers come straight from ZZ to CCA and there's a huge disconnect. I know time passes between them, but it dumps you into the middle of a conflict for which there is NO explanation. It's like "Char suddenly wants to drop meteors on Earth!" And that makes NO sense.
Because it isn't the AEUG alone that espouses the very deep, very complicated philosophy of "do not drop shit on the Earth" it's CHAR AZNABLE who does that. He tells Kamille that early on in Zeta. When he gives his speech later in the series he's like "Hey humanity is polluting the Earth we should all get off its back." CCA Char is bullshit and inconsistent with Zeta Char's philosophies. Broken or not, it isn't like Char spent Zeta unconscious. He DID spend ZZ out of comission though, which makes his positions in CCA that much more incomprehensible.
The angle where he's supposed to be fighting Amuro still makes no sense. What are they fighting over? Lalah? Who has been dead for decades? After Char tells Amuro to get over it numerous times? Come OOOOOOON.
How is taking WHAT THE CHARACTER SAID a wrong assumption? That right there is some crazy ass mental gymnastics to justify Char's absurd disconnect in CCA and nothing else. Char says x, he means x, not y. Am I just supposed to throw away 50 episodes of characterization in favor of the most poorly written 2-hours in the entire timeline to that point?
And that's CCA's problem. It's completely at odds with Zeta Gundam, wholly unnecessary, and entirely inconclusive of the mess it creates. It introduces a conflict between Char and Amuro, Earth and Neo-Zeon, that does not need to exist at all and has no basis whatsoever, handles it in a terrible, rushed fashion to make time for Quess to fuck around on-screen, and then doesn't bother to resolve shit. It's like Tomino sat down that day, said, "Shoot, it'd be boring to actually bother concluding this whole thing. Fuck it, kill 'em off. That's always worked in the past." Got up, and never looked back.
CCA is a terrible story from start to finish. It could have been worth while, and I bet there's a Super Robot Wars game that makes it worth while, but not the haphazard, slapped together piece of shit that story is in that film.
And I'm not assuming CCA takes place right after ZZ, I'm faulting it for that. Viewers come straight from ZZ to CCA and there's a huge disconnect. I know time passes between them, but it dumps you into the middle of a conflict for which there is NO explanation. It's like "Char suddenly wants to drop meteors on Earth!" And that makes NO sense.
Because it isn't the AEUG alone that espouses the very deep, very complicated philosophy of "do not drop shit on the Earth" it's CHAR AZNABLE who does that. He tells Kamille that early on in Zeta. When he gives his speech later in the series he's like "Hey humanity is polluting the Earth we should all get off its back." CCA Char is bullshit and inconsistent with Zeta Char's philosophies. Broken or not, it isn't like Char spent Zeta unconscious. He DID spend ZZ out of comission though, which makes his positions in CCA that much more incomprehensible.
The angle where he's supposed to be fighting Amuro still makes no sense. What are they fighting over? Lalah? Who has been dead for decades? After Char tells Amuro to get over it numerous times? Come OOOOOOON.
How is taking WHAT THE CHARACTER SAID a wrong assumption? That right there is some crazy ass mental gymnastics to justify Char's absurd disconnect in CCA and nothing else. Char says x, he means x, not y. Am I just supposed to throw away 50 episodes of characterization in favor of the most poorly written 2-hours in the entire timeline to that point?
And that's CCA's problem. It's completely at odds with Zeta Gundam, wholly unnecessary, and entirely inconclusive of the mess it creates. It introduces a conflict between Char and Amuro, Earth and Neo-Zeon, that does not need to exist at all and has no basis whatsoever, handles it in a terrible, rushed fashion to make time for Quess to fuck around on-screen, and then doesn't bother to resolve shit. It's like Tomino sat down that day, said, "Shoot, it'd be boring to actually bother concluding this whole thing. Fuck it, kill 'em off. That's always worked in the past." Got up, and never looked back.
CCA is a terrible story from start to finish. It could have been worth while, and I bet there's a Super Robot Wars game that makes it worth while, but not the haphazard, slapped together piece of shit that story is in that film.
Megalosaro
Banned
Tgat is the EXACT SAME rhetoric that he uses in cca as well. That earth is sacred and humanity has to leave it. The only difference is that he changed his mind on waiting for humanity to make that decision on its own and decided to give it a nudge.
And you dont seem to release that the neo zeon in cca is entirely dependent on char being there. Without char at its helm, it is just as directionless as the principality of zeon was once all the zabis died. There is no neo zeon without char. Why the hell do you think full frontal goes around pretending to be char in unicorn?
Char's death = the end of the faction. I guess you didnt really pay attention to the stuff in sweetwater where they pretty much reveal the fact it is a cult of personality organization that is built upon his past reputation as well as his relationship to zeon deikun, the most beloved philosopher politician of their era.
Son of Cervantes
Member
Tomino has never been good at writing consistent characterizations. If I cared enough, I could write a lengthy post regarding how Bright suddenly becomes retarded in ZZ. Stuff he would've beaten Amuro or Kamille up for doing is suddenly A-okay when Judeau shows up, GETS THE ARGAMA'S NAVIGATOR KILLED, and repeatedly tries to steal the AEUG's sole remaining high-tech mobile suit.
Not to mention that Bright's reasoning for doing this (Judeau is a possible Newtype) makes no sense given what an awful pilot Judeau is at the start of the show.
Compared to Bright, Char is a model of consistency.
Not to mention that Bright's reasoning for doing this (Judeau is a possible Newtype) makes no sense given what an awful pilot Judeau is at the start of the show.
Compared to Bright, Char is a model of consistency.
Crimsonlink
Member
IMO the only good thing about CCA was Nu gundam and the suits in general. Screw the characters and plot.
Amuro why did you have to die? ;_;
Son of Cervantes
Member
The translation in the R1 DVD Is so lifeless...sucks a lit if the drama out of the movie.
You can play that angle for all its worth, but it reaaaaaaaally doesn't mean shit considering how often Spacenoids rebel against the Earth Federation without Aznable or the Zabis.
And dropping a fucking meteor on the Earth the size of Axis is NOT a little nudge. It's ludicrous bullshit that destroys the Earth. How is that even the same rhetoric? It's not. It's fucking insane is what it is.
You're shitting me, right?
Because Bright Noa let Katz steal HOW MANY FUCKING MECHA without punishing him? Letting Judau get away with shit is hardly surprising after the sheer amount of bullshit that gets pulled on the Argama during Zeta. Being terrible at policing the behavior of people on his boat is practically Bright's forte.
And even if it WAS inconsistent, it's nowhere near Char "pretty much 3 different characters" Aznable. Not even gonna argue this. I'm out for the night. We've hit a place even I'm not interested in going.
Son of Cervantes
Member
And look at how Katz ended up cuzBright got soft.
Judeau should have been executed for his vile actions.
What? Bright is great in ZZ. He has changed sure, but it actually feels like it makes some sense. In first Gundam, he was the guy who was thrown into a situation way over his head, who had to be tough to keep everything together, and gradually grew to fit his role. In Zeta Gundam, he was an established veteran commander, and was ultimately the de-facto fleet commander of the AEUG (he also didn't get nearly as many episodes devoted to his character development in Zeta, which was much more heavily focused on other characters).
By the time ZZ rolls around, he has survived two massive wars, but a heck of a lot of people he knows haven't. At the start of ZZ, the AEUG has been pretty much reduced down to Bright's tattered ship and a handful of crew he has served with through a tough war. He's comfortable as a military commander now, yet tired of fighting and watching people be destroyed by the war. I can't help but feel that his changed attitude comes from not wanting to see Judau and the others share the fate of Kamille or those who died in Zeta's ending. I mean, well before the end of Zeta, the war had changed Kamille dramatically, and not really for the better.
And to be honest, trusting Judau might have been one of the best decisions Bright ever made. If the last fourth of the series keeps on the same track as the first part, Judau and his merry band will be solely responsible for stopping Neo Zeon's takeover of the Earth Sphere.
Lostconfused
Member
Because thats the important part. Char and Amuro aren't important, what's important is that humanity working together to achieve a better future. The psycho frame literally presents the human will and spirit, the light of the heart and what it can accomplish, which is saving earth from absolute disaster. The issue with Zeon isn't going to be resolved because its a symptom and not a cause, which Gundam UC also mentions. The disenfranchised spacenoids and the earth centric political outlook will forever cause tensions and conflicts until humanity learns to move on.
You all are forgetting that
Their cockpits vaporize. Shit gets really hot, their front consoles explode in a bunch of lights right in their faces, then Bright and Nani mourn. There's not a whole lot more to show there. Personally, I think it's the completely anti-climactic last words that can throw you off.
The disconnect is explained in the movie, albeit probably too off-handedly (in Tomino fashion). In Zeta, Char's goal with the AEUG is to get humanity to gradually move to space and leave the Earth alone, but he admits that it should be a long process and is willing to wait for that to happen. Then ZZ happens, and the Federation actually allows Haman to drop a colony onto Dublin just to further their own ends. This motivates him into reversing course and taking a faster, more direct approach to get things done. He explains in a speech in CCA that the Federation and Haman's actions forced his hand, and that if he just waited around for people to change, the planet would be completely destroyed before it happened because of how corrosive and corrupt the status quo is.
It's a flip in characterization for sure, but it's not one that's completely unexplained or disregards the events of Zeta/ZZ.
The funny thing about CCA's ending is that Char both wins and loses in the end. By the time Victory rolls around, the Earth actually has become mostly uninhabitable thanks to the various colony/asteroid drops (and other general environmental damage) and most people are forced to live in space. But the whole "people will evolve into Newtypes" half of that philosophy doesn't happen, and Newtypes become rarer than more common; instead of being the next step in evolution, they're just remembered as legends that have all but disappeared.
MikeBreezy92
Member
wait how was 08th MS Team's ending stupid?
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
It doesn't happen in the movie either. Part of the reason Char wants everyone to turn into newtypes is so that humanity will finally understand each other and conflicts will end out of that new mutual understanding
All while he and Amuro, probably the two most powerful and capable newtypes alive, are wholly incapable of understanding each other on any level. Even as they both die they can't even begin to understand how the other felt about Lalah or Quess, let alone the motives that lead them to take opposing sides in this conflict.
yep, good point.
The thing is -- they do understand each other. It's just that "understanding" in and of itself, as this holistic ideal where once people understand one another, once they see the conflict from the other side, they will stop fighting and their disagreements will become automatically resolved.
Char is uniquely aware of where Amuro is coming from. After all, the perspective that Amuro adopts by CCA re: Spacenoids/Earth is essentially his own position in Zeta. Likewise, Amuro is aware that Char feels that by the time complete immigration into space happens on its own, Earth will be utterly ruined. But even if they understand, there's just no way of reconciling two fundamentally opposing views like the ones Amuro and Char have, because one necessarily precludes the other.
Since when are Amuro and Char the most powerful newtypes? I thought that even Tomino talked about how Judau's raw NT power are pretty much unmatched.
Crimsonlink
Member
Pretty sure Kamille was the one that was said to be unmatched. But its Tomino, the guy forgets a lot of important stuff.
For all we know, Banagher could end up being super powerful and the best newtype ever lol.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
They don't though. In the climax the disagree with or misunderstand everything the other does. Amuro doesn't understand why Char is doing such an evil thing while Char doesn't understand why Amuro can't see his side. Char leaks the psycommu tech to Londo Bell as a sign of respect to Amuro and a sportsmanship mentality towards the man he considers his rival and Amuro interprets that as sheer arrogance. Both found Quess annoying and treated her like shit but they both think the other was in the wrong. and right as they die it's demonstrated that deep down they still blamed each other for Lalah's death while never stopping to consider that the other one was as fucked up over it as they were.
I understand your point, but in the finale Amuro and Char were at each others throats for alot of personal reasons beyond their views on the current conflict. Despite being newtypes and both sharing such a strong mutual bond in Lalah, they weren't able to meet halfway on anything
Judeau and Kamille might have more raw power, but Amuro and Char honed their abilities better.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
That's why I tried to throw the word capable in there.
Judau and Kamille pull shit like making barriers of pure psychic energy and summoning dead girlfriends when pushed to the brink. but they can't control that shit and both don't really stay in active combat after their series end, unlike both Char and Amuro
At the end of the day no one in UC is fucking with CCA Amuro. No one.
Judau and Kamille pull shit like making barriers of pure psychic energy and summoning dead girlfriends when pushed to the brink. but they can't control that shit and both don't really stay in active combat after their series end, unlike both Char and Amuro
At the end of the day no one in UC is fucking with CCA Amuro. No one.
I'm not sure I agree with this.
If you're going to just use CCA Amuro as a base for Amuro at all times then I think it's only fair to think of Grey for Jadau. By the time he reaches that point in his life he is leader of an entire colony and has been piloting the ZZ for nearly 60 years, he likely has both raw power and as much control over it as Amuro ever did.
http://i.imgur.com/ae6OjLv.jpg - RX-124 Gundam TR-6 [Kehar II] Re-Zeon Use
http://i.imgur.com/YJckdOT.jpg - ARX-124R "ReHazel"
Goddamn, these are beautiful.
http://i.imgur.com/YJckdOT.jpg - ARX-124R "ReHazel"
Goddamn, these are beautiful.
SousedLouse
Member
Bright couldn't discipline a jello mold. Bright was only able to straighten Amuro because Amuro was just neurotic and insecure enough to do a complete 180 and get back in the pilot's seat in order to prove everyone else wrong. Frau's lecturing and his budding rivalry with Char was as instrumental in that flip as Bright's little speech, too. Hell, Sayla, Ryu and Mirai did way more for the general morale and discipline of the White Base's crew than Bright.
That's the only Brightslap post-0079 that did anything close to its intended purpose, and even that ended up backfiring (because Hathaway is such a thick-headed dunce). When he hit Kamille, it was after a long string of physical abuse from the rest of the crew that only wound Kamille up tighter; Katz dodged his whippin' entirely, and Bright didn't put any real effort to follow up on that. I'm convinced that Bright didn't stop Katz, Fa or anyone else from jacking suits because he eventually figured out that throwing his weight around only made things worse.
After all that, him turning Judau into his own little commando makes a cynical type of sense. He's dealing with a street urchin who's savvy enough to pilot a sophisticated prototype with little to no training, decent (or dumb) enough to bring it back time after time, and decent (or dumb) enough to announce that he's going to steal it, instead of just taking it outright like every teen he's had to deal with in his life. From Bright's position, it'd be dumb not to try and turn Judau over to his side instead of handing him over to a bunch of crooked Fed soldiers. Only thing he had to sacrifice was his pride, and he left that on Om's office floor after the Titans gave him a jump-in.
Lostconfused
Member
At this point in time this is an argument about Tomino's philosophy and what he was trying to say with Gundam. The main two points are: empathy is the key to understanding and resolving conflicts, and some people need to die because they are the root of conflict.
Either way Tomino already showed in Zeta that even if there is understanding or some kind of empathy between individuals it doesn't mean the two individuals will agree on anything. Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34fw1nHeLR0
I just think that the notion of understanding as meeting halfway is flawed in the first place. You can understand where someone is coming from without sympathizing with their views, right? Amuro gets why Char is "doing such an evil thing", but he sees it as impatience. Char gets why Amuro is part of the Londo Bell, but he sees the entire project as the maintenance of the status quo. So on and so forth.
Yeah, there definitely is this idea that Amuro and Char's personal conflicts really get in the way of being able to resolve the bigger issues at hand, but empathy doesn't stop war on its own and understanding the basis for someone's ideological position doesn't mean you have to like them as a person.
Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam 19
So I diss Zeta a lot and especially the first time through I felt super underwhelmed by what was supposed to be the greatest Gundam ever, but now that I don't have that false illusion going on, I'm actually enjoying Zeta a lot. I'm able to distance myself from the parts I hate and realize that I only hate parts and recognize the good. This Hong Kong arc has been a great example of that. Kamille's time with Four is pretty great, Amuro's time with the White Base crew, especially Mirai at the moment, has really helped me to appreciate him and his whole "can't get over Lalah" noise a lot more. I feel more engaged in what's going on with the Titans and the AEUG, too.
Really, the only complaint I can make about this Arc is that I can't stand Beltorchika like, at all. Her every action is horrible, grating, and borderline insane. That said, I can't help but feel that that was what Tomino was going for with her character. Why he went there I'll never really know, and she'll forever remain an awful character, but the fact remains I kind of wonder whether or not she isn't awful by intent. No wonder Amuro isn't with her by the time CCA rolls around, though.
That said, I really am enjoying Zeta a lot more this time around, and if this pans out I may consider rewatching other shows I hated to see if I cannot change my opinion of them and take back some of the horrid stuff I said about them in the future.
So I diss Zeta a lot and especially the first time through I felt super underwhelmed by what was supposed to be the greatest Gundam ever, but now that I don't have that false illusion going on, I'm actually enjoying Zeta a lot. I'm able to distance myself from the parts I hate and realize that I only hate parts and recognize the good. This Hong Kong arc has been a great example of that. Kamille's time with Four is pretty great, Amuro's time with the White Base crew, especially Mirai at the moment, has really helped me to appreciate him and his whole "can't get over Lalah" noise a lot more. I feel more engaged in what's going on with the Titans and the AEUG, too.
Really, the only complaint I can make about this Arc is that I can't stand Beltorchika like, at all. Her every action is horrible, grating, and borderline insane. That said, I can't help but feel that that was what Tomino was going for with her character. Why he went there I'll never really know, and she'll forever remain an awful character, but the fact remains I kind of wonder whether or not she isn't awful by intent. No wonder Amuro isn't with her by the time CCA rolls around, though.
That said, I really am enjoying Zeta a lot more this time around, and if this pans out I may consider rewatching other shows I hated to see if I cannot change my opinion of them and take back some of the horrid stuff I said about them in the future.
Lostconfused
Member
Well that depends entirely on which version you follow.
Wait what? I wasn't particularly attached to Chan but there's a version of CCA with Beltorchika? Why?
The first pitch for CCA involved Beltorchika being pregnant with Amuro's kid but the suits up top had problems with ~unwed pregnancy~ for a protagonist so Chan was created as a replacement. Tomino later did a novelization of CCA with the sub-subtitle Beltorchika's Children with the original concept and it's mostly known for featuring the Hi-nu Gundam and Nightingale (which you might've encountered in SRW) as Amuro and Char's main suits respectively.
Crimsonlink
Member
Still surprised that no Amuro illegitimate child has been revealed.
I mean the guy sleeps with Sayla. What a better way to say F U to Char than to knock up his sister? lol
I mean if we play off the Uso angle, Uso's dad/grandfather must be alive during Unicorn so Char has some descendants going and a few clones running around.
I mean the guy sleeps with Sayla. What a better way to say F U to Char than to knock up his sister? lol
Poor Chan had to die to stupid Hathaway so no road there. >.>
I mean if we play off the Uso angle, Uso's dad/grandfather must be alive during Unicorn so Char has some descendants going and a few clones running around.
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