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The Official Headphone Thread 2.5: We're Making WAVs and Catching FLAC

Z

zswordsman

Member
-tetsuo- said:
Magni 2 and Modi 2 hooked up. I been testing a bunch of sets because I have problems. Currently running the Fidelio X2s, which are fantastic. The very last set I have coming in to test are the AKG K712 Pros which I hear are very good for music. I might just keep the Fidelios for games and those for music if I notice a big enough difference. Overall, however, what an eye opening experience this has been. The difference in quality, the jump I have done, is just hilarious. I went from Tritton 5.1 headsets through on board soundcard to X2s through a standalone amp and dac. Not gonna go back.
Click to expand...
this is what Im looking for too. Good to know it was a noticeable jump in quality.

Currently have an e12 but Im thinking of getting the magni and maybe the modi if I can find whether or not a DAP benefits from it lol.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Your dap won't benefit from it, it literally just replaces the DAC section of your dap. It turns your dap into nothing more than something you control playback from to send the digital signals to the dac.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
That said, I don't know if the a25 is able to bypass its own amp section and just send the converted signals from its internal dac directly to the amp. Double amping is something you generally try to avoid. Most daps should be able to do it.
 
Z

zswordsman

Member
Antiwhippy said:
That said, I don't know if the a25 is able to bypass its own amp section and just send the converted signals from its internal dac directly to the amp. Double amping is something you generally try to avoid. Most daps should be able to do it.
Click to expand...
Yeah I read that somewhere too. Don't wanna double amp. I'll see if Google says anything about the a25. Hopefully I can just amp it. I've been doing that with the e12 but I have no clue if I've been double amping this whole time.

If it does double amp, then a DAC would be necessary?
 
T

Tenebrous

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Your dap won't benefit from it, it literally just replaces the DAC section of your dap. It turns your dap into nothing more than something you control playback from to send the digital signals to the dac.
Click to expand...

At that point, there's no difference between an A15 and an AK380, right?
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
zswordsman said:
Yeah I read that somewhere too. Don't wanna double amp. I'll see if Google says anything about the a25. Hopefully I can just amp it. I've been doing that with the e12 but I have no clue if I've been double amping this whole time.

If it does double amp, then a DAC would be necessary?
Click to expand...

I think this is all you need for line out on your Walkman.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003UCI2CI/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Tenebrous said:
At that point, there's no difference between an A15 and an AK380, right?
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. I shake my head when I see people on head fi use their ak380 as transports for the chord hugo.
 
Z

zswordsman

Member
Antiwhippy said:
I think this is all you need for line out on your Walkman.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003UCI2CI/?tag=neogaf0e-20



Yeah, pretty much. I shake my head when I see people on head fi use their ak380 as transports for the chord hugo.
Click to expand...
Whaaaaat. I was trying to find one the other day but only found iPod ones. Thanks man, gonna get this and the uber.
A RCA to 3.5mm cable is good enough for input for the magni right?
Edit : brainfart. That's the only input so it'll have to do lol.
 
T

Tommy DJ

Member
chaosblade said:
I don't understand.

OP says you use amps with high impedance headphones, and since an AV receiver functions like an amp in this situation I figured I'd want something with higher impedance.

So if I want something that will sound better from my receiver at lower volumes I want lower impedance (so for the DT990, the 32ohm one)?
Click to expand...

Impedance can be real confusing so I'll try and explain it.

When headphone impedance increases, the amount of current from the amplifier decreases. If you remember Ohm's Law, a general rule with headphones is that:
  • Headphones with low impedance will generally need more current than voltage to reach certain loudness levels
  • Headphones with high impedance will generally need more voltage than current to reach certain loudness levels
As the amplifier merely sees the headphone as a load, your headphone's impedance will directly impact the amount of power an amplifier is able to deliver. So if you look at the specifications for a full tube amplifier with relatively high output impedance (eg. Valhalla 2 or Bottlehead Crack), the amplifier will be able to produce significantly more power with higher impedance loads than lower impedance loads.

Impedance differences between headphone and amplifier output can have an impact on frequency response, impacting on how they sound in a very obvious way. If you look at the electrical impedance graph of a pair of Sennheiser HD800, you can see that increasing amplifier output impedance will result in an increase of bass centered around 100hz and treble past 10khz.

What does all of this actually mean to you? AV receivers generally have pretty shitty headphone outputs with high output impedance around the 60-300 ohms range. There are tonnes of additional reasons why they're sub-optimal for headphone usage. However, speaker amplifiers and receivers are actually pretty alright for headphones that need a lot of current as they're generally able to pump out a shitload of current...I've found them alright for planar magnetic headphones for the following reasons:
  • Most have flat impedance graphs, meaning increasing amplifier output impedance has zero impact on frequnecy response
  • Planar magnetics need current more than voltage and speaker amplifiers/receivers generally have no trouble with this. Hifiman actually produced an adapter that let you hook your Hifiman HE-6 to the rear speaker wire barrels of your power amplifier.
I don't have a good idea what cheap planar magnetics exist these days but I'm fairly sure the Hifiman HE-400 went for sale for a crazy low price recently. From an headphone enthusiast point of view, I really wouldn't be going for a dynamic driver headphone like the Beyerdynamic DT-990 if you're dead set on using the AV receiver as your main headphone output.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
My choices are the receiver (getting audio from the PC via digital output) or the PC's onboard 3.5mm jack. And the latter sounds atrocious.

That made sense of the impedance stuff though. Complicates searching for headphones a bit I guess, will just have to keep an eye out and see what goes on sale. Not desperate yet, the tape is keeping my 555s together for now and they sound good.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
This discussion about impedance reminds me about my AKG K712 / Yamaha RX-A1020 dilemma.

Now, I absolutely love using the AKGs for Halo 5. The sound stage is phenomenal, it's super easy to determine accurate directions. Also, I love the Silent Cinema virtual surround the Yamaha does. Many times I have been alerted to someone sneaking behind me.

The problem is that I need to play the Yamaha very loud to make most out of the AKGs. I haven't found the spec for the headphone output impedance for the Yamaha, but I have understood that the AKGs should be easy to drive. Yet still, it feels like they could use better amping.

So optimally I would have something like a Schiit Asgard between the Yamaha and the AKGs. But this would cause me too lose the Silent Cinema virtual surround, which seems bound to the headphone out jack. Which means, I guess, that I would need a virtual surround DAC in the mix too, and I could feed it with optical from the Yamaha.

Any suggestions?
 
Xander51

Xander51

Member
Chittagong said:
This discussion about impedance reminds me about my AKG K712 / Yamaha RX-A1020 dilemma.

Now, I absolutely love using the AKGs for Halo 5. The sound stage is phenomenal, it's super easy to determine accurate directions. Also, I love the Silent Cinema virtual surround the Yamaha does. Many times I have been alerted to someone sneaking behind me.

The problem is that I need to play the Yamaha very loud to make most out of the AKGs. I haven't found the spec for the headphone output impedance for the Yamaha, but I have understood that the AKGs should be easy to drive. Yet still, it feels like they could use better amping.

So optimally I would have something like a Schiit Asgard between the Yamaha and the AKGs. But this would cause me too lose the Silent Cinema virtual surround, which seems bound to the headphone out jack. Which means, I guess, that I would need a virtual surround DAC in the mix too, and I could feed it with optical from the Yamaha.

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

You could always try feeding the Asgard or another amp off the headphone-out of the Yamaha? I know that double-amping is not usually ideal, but it sounds like the amp in the Yamaha isn't amazing anyway, and I doubt it'd make a dramatic impact on sound quality. It certainly couldn't hurt to try it.

I don't really know of many virtual surround DACs. The Astro Mixamp is loved by some, and the new TR version uses digital components that are supposed to help with the channel imbalance issues the older models sometimes suffered from. Sorry I can't be of more help!
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
Xander51 said:
You could always try feeding the Asgard or another amp off the headphone-out of the Yamaha? I know that double-amping is not usually ideal, but it sounds like the amp in the Yamaha isn't amazing anyway, and I doubt it'd make a dramatic impact on sound quality. It certainly couldn't hurt to try it.

I don't really know of many virtual surround DACs. The Astro Mixamp is loved by some, and the new TR version uses digital components that are supposed to help with the channel imbalance issues the older models sometimes suffered from. Sorry I can't be of more help!
Click to expand...

Thanks, I agree that it's hard to think of a way that's not double amping, given that I very much doubt that Mixamp is amp enough for the K712s. Here are all the different virtual surround scenarios I managed to think of:

1. Xbone -- Yamaha A1020 -- Asgard -- AKG K712 <--- double amping

2. Xbone -- MixAmp Pro TR -- Asgard -- AKG K712 <--- double amping

3. Xbone -- MixAmp Pro TR -- AKG K712 <--- too weak?

4. Xbone -- Yamaha A1020 -- AKG K712 <--- too weak?

So, for the first scenario, I'll need a 6.25mm <--> RCA cable for the Yamaha/Schiit hookup.
 
-tetsuo-

-tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Ughhh. I got my pair of X2s for 150 on ebay and I love them, but the damn left earpad just keeps falling off. I don't think I should send them back though...
 
Z

zswordsman

Member
So it's been a day since I ordered a Magni, its already been shipped yet I'm still to be charged. I'm sure I'll see the charge tomorrow but if not.... Muahahaha
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
That's the thing, I just ordered the pinnacle, so I can't justify it.

I wish loudspeakers were more practical for my life.
 
Xander51

Xander51

Member
Chittagong said:
Thanks, I agree that it's hard to think of a way that's not double amping, given that I very much doubt that Mixamp is amp enough for the K712s. Here are all the different virtual surround scenarios I managed to think of:

1. Xbone -- Yamaha A1020 -- Asgard -- AKG K712 <--- double amping


So, for the first scenario, I'll need a 6.25mm <--> RCA cable for the Yamaha/Schiit hookup.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this seems like the best place to start, and if you don't like it, well you've still got other options and a killer headphone amp.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
so I ordered a 6.35mm <--> RCA cable and will try hooking up my work Magni 2U to my Yamaha A-1020 as a test of concept, before investing in an Asgard.

Since I'm double amping I wonder what volume I should feed the Magni with? With the K712s direct I usually sit between -10 and -20.


Antiwhippy said:
I know tyll mostly reviews stuff he likes, but when he tears a headphone down (in the most gentle way possible) it's still pretty awesomely informative.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...magnetic-headphone-page-2#X87EjeqPtlDhAdeO.97

Also explains why I often feel that the audeze cans that I've heard sound tizzy in the treble.
Click to expand...

Damn, sounds like the Audeze dream is over, for now.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
leng jai said:
Had a quick skim on Headfi and it seems that a lot of people claim the SINE sounds very similar to the PM3s.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have read the same thing. I was considering them, but given that I feel PM3s are my most unremarkable headphones I decided to pass on them. PM3s are fine for travel use as they are small and isolate well, but the sound stage is minimal, and their low frequencies performance is pretty underwhelming, and overall the sound isn't particularly rich.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Having heard both I'd say that the bass response of the sine is more to my liking.

And I am very particular about my bass.
 
L

leng jai

Member
Is the build quality anywhere near Oppo level though? From what I've seen the LCD series is terrible. The SINE is always significantly more expensive than the Oppos.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
Antiwhippy said:
Like if I'm looking for a high end closed portable I'd probably consider the sine over most things.
Click to expand...

If size is not a massive concern I'd always pick Fostex TH-600s, best closed back I have used, by a huge margin. Amazing sound stage, phenomenal richness, insane bass. They are a bit bulkier than the PM3s though.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
That cord makes the Fostex non-starters for portability as far as I'm concerned.

leng jai said:
Is the build quality anywhere near Oppo level though? From what I've seen the LCD series is terrible. The SINE is always significantly more expensive than the Oppos.
Click to expand...

Eh, for the extra AUD$150 I'd go for the sine over the PM-3. Nothing about the PM-3 moves me, and I don't think it's the neutrality because I really like the HD600.

But yeah, audeze quality control is always something you have to consider. External build though seems fine.
 
T

Tommy DJ

Member
I'm kind of glad Tyll is finding some fun with PEQ, its a really easy way to make very well behaved headphones sound better if you know what regions to target. The crazy low distortion and pretty sick transient response of the Audeze LCD-4 means it'll respond to EQ well but it's still goddamn $6,400 AUD at Addicted to Audio. Also that treble unevenness looks like a pain in the ass to deal with.

I mean $6,400 still blows my mind. That amount of money can net you a really competent Sennheiser HD800 setup PLUS really good active speakers PLUS acoustic treatment PLUS room correction software if you want to pay for something like Dirac Live. Its insane.
 
L

leng jai

Member
Tommy DJ said:
The crazy low distortion and pretty sick transient response of the Audeze LCD-4 means it'll respond to EQ well but it's still goddamn $6,400 AUD at Addicted to Audio. I'm kind of glad Tyll is finding some fun with PEQ, its a really easy way to make very well behaved headphones sound better if you know what regions to target.

I mean $6,400 still blows my mind. That amount of money can net you a really competent Sennheiser HD800 setup PLUS really good active speakers PLUS acoustic treatment PLUS room correction software if you want to pay for something like Dirac Live. Its insane.
Click to expand...

Don't get me started on Audeze pricing again, it's utter nonsense. HD800 $1250 vs LCD4 $6400, I mean f*** me sideways.
 
D

DeathByBacklog

Member
So I jumped in and ordered a FiiO E12 Mont Blanc last night. Portability, form factor, and simplicity were my criteria. Being an incredible noob to this, it seemed like the only way I could judge. So I'll be using them along side of my MX50, 598SE, and G4ME Zero. Hoping it was a decent choice. Feel free to offer your opinion.
 
Xander51

Xander51

Member
-tetsuo- said:
Yes I meant Fidelios sorry. I thought there were supposed to click in but there is a bunch if gunk on the mounts and the pad on the left ear falls off quite easily. It is very upsetting :(
Click to expand...

They used to click in, but they recently switched manufacturers and now they glue the pads in place. It is but one of many complaints people have had since the switch in manufacturing.

Zeos recently did a humorous video about the complaints, and even though he thinks it's fine...lots of folks have had problems. https://youtu.be/B5lJdUy-1Ck
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
It's all fine and good to have a $3,995 pair of headphones in the market, but you have to be sure they don't lose in comparison to a $1,138 pair of headphones

Inner Fidelity said:
When I switched form the Sennheiser HD 800 S to the LCD-4 it was like someone draped cloth over my ears...sort of.
Click to expand...

Having to EQ them to work right is just a bit embarrassing.
 
S

SolarMystic

Member
Tommy DJ said:
I'm kind of glad Tyll is finding some fun with PEQ, its a really easy way to make very well behaved headphones sound better if you know what regions to target. The crazy low distortion and pretty sick transient response of the Audeze LCD-4 means it'll respond to EQ well but it's still goddamn $6,400 AUD at Addicted to Audio. Also that treble unevenness looks like a pain in the ass to deal with.

I mean $6,400 still blows my mind. That amount of money can net you a really competent Sennheiser HD800 setup PLUS really good active speakers PLUS acoustic treatment PLUS room correction software if you want to pay for something like Dirac Live. Its insane.
Click to expand...

For that money the LCD-4 better be gods at everything in the frequency response and render every other headphone in existence completely obsolete and unnecessary. They should also feel like the softest pillow invented on your head.

None of these qualities are found in the LCD-4 according to Tyll. Totally ridiculous.
 
K

K.Jack

Knowledge is power, guard it well
Tenebrous said:
Tempted to grab an Oppo HA-2 personally.
Click to expand...

Thinking of doing the same. My GO 1000 overheats or something (cuts to nothing but static after less than an hour of use) and I'm getting irritated. It's still under warranty, but I'm supremely disappointed.

HA-2 pairs well with the PM-3, so I might just jump.
 
G

gutterboy44

Member
Well the Soundblaster Z built in headphone amp wasn't cutting it for my AKG Q701's. Ordered the Schiit Magni 2. Looked like a lot of Q701 owners said it worked great for powering them. Can't wait for it to arrive.
 
Z

zswordsman

Member
DeathByBacklog said:
So I jumped in and ordered a FiiO E12 Mont Blanc last night. Portability, form factor, and simplicity were my criteria. Being an incredible noob to this, it seemed like the only way I could judge. So I'll be using them along side of my MX50, 598SE, and G4ME Zero. Hoping it was a decent choice. Feel free to offer your opinion.
Click to expand...
I have one. I really dig it, I love the look of it and it's really powerful. I used it with 598s.
 
S

SolarMystic

Member
Just got the pair of he-400 in yesterday. Comfort is much better than the LCD lineup. I'm already getting addicted to the low end, so good.

I also purchased the Beyer DT 150 off of amazon UK. For some reason it is only half the price across the pond as it is here on amazon US. Didn't even have to think about it at the $135 price shipped. Also picked up a ZMF Pilot Pad to go with it.
 
mr stroke

mr stroke

Member
Chittagong said:
Thanks, I agree that it's hard to think of a way that's not double amping, given that I very much doubt that Mixamp is amp enough for the K712s. Here are all the different virtual surround scenarios I managed to think of:

1. Xbone -- Yamaha A1020 -- Asgard -- AKG K712 <--- double amping

2. Xbone -- MixAmp Pro TR -- Asgard -- AKG K712 <--- double amping

3. Xbone -- MixAmp Pro TR -- AKG K712 <--- too weak?

4. Xbone -- Yamaha A1020 -- AKG K712 <--- too weak?

So, for the first scenario, I'll need a 6.25mm <--> RCA cable for the Yamaha/Schiit hookup.
Click to expand...

Surprised you like the Yamaha Silent Cinema, I actually just returned the Yamaha I bought for a Denon receiver. I felt like the Yamaha SC was very hallow sounding and when playing an RTS or MOBA everything felt way off. Actually went back to a Mixamp+Shiit Magni combo again for the 5th time lol.
 
Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
mr stroke said:
Surprised you like the Yamaha Silent Cinema, I actually just returned the Yamaha I bought for a Denon receiver. I felt like the Yamaha SC was very hallow sounding and when playing an RTS or MOBA everything felt way off. Actually went back to a Mixamp+Shiit Magni combo again for the 5th time lol.
Click to expand...

Hmm, interesting... I might need to try that. How did you find the double amping working between Mixamp and Magni?
 
Z

zswordsman

Member
Wtf, how does a little cable improve music so much. I bought the Walkman LOD cable Antiwhippy showed me and I used it with my e12. I'm hearing stuff that wasn't there lol
 
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