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The Official Left 4 Dead Thread
- Thread starter saelz8
- Start date
Caesar III
Member
:lol That's great 
Blizzard I demand you stop deleting comments from your SteamID page.
If you do not meet my demands, I shall post your very sick secret in this thread for everyone to see. And be disgusted at!
Don't make me do this Blizzard. All you have to do is stop deleting comments from your SteamID page. This is your last warning!
If you do not meet my demands, I shall post your very sick secret in this thread for everyone to see. And be disgusted at!
Don't make me do this Blizzard. All you have to do is stop deleting comments from your SteamID page. This is your last warning!
Picked this up last week. Add me and I'll play with ya!
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197983234405
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197983234405
Blizzard you leave me no choice. You failed to meet my demands and now you must repent.
Open your eyes and ears fellow GAFfers as I reveal to you...Blizzard's dirty little secret!
Note my latest comment on that page. Now a few hours later...
Notice how my comment is gone therefore proving that he is sexually attracted to his parents!
And now you all know his dirty little secret :lol
Open your eyes and ears fellow GAFfers as I reveal to you...Blizzard's dirty little secret!
Note my latest comment on that page. Now a few hours later...
Notice how my comment is gone therefore proving that he is sexually attracted to his parents!
And now you all know his dirty little secret :lol
Damn it Blizzard, stop deleting comments >:|
TheKingsCrown
Banned
Hi guys,
So I've recently started playing this awesome game and I have a question.
Does Steam allow for a group of people to be placed onto a server together? My friends and I haven't figured the stuff out yet, but I wanted to check in advance.
Thanks...
So I've recently started playing this awesome game and I have a question.
Does Steam allow for a group of people to be placed onto a server together? My friends and I haven't figured the stuff out yet, but I wanted to check in advance.
Thanks...
TheKingsCrown
Banned
That's too bad. I guess if we set up our own server it would work out at some level?DaFish said:
TheKingsCrown
Banned
Ah okay, so we just would have a wait time of some kind, waiting for people to auto join the game.DaFish said:
Thanks for info.
TheKingsCrown said:
If all your trying to do is have all your buddies on one team and play against randoms, do this:
1. Make a lobby that is "Friends Only"
2. After all of your buds are in the game pick a side (Infected or Humans)
3. Open the game to the public (rather then Friends Only)
Does anyone know a way to get the tank to stay alive without switching to AI on dead air?
Pillow and vert claimed they did it for 5-10 minutes without any humans getting hit, until everyone finally went over to it and died.
*edit*
Apparently, it's due to being able to see survivors. If the tank climbs up on the plane-loading arm and can see the survivors in the distance through the slits in the wall, the meter never expires. Or, it may be the case that if you can see survivors but they don't attack you your meter doesn't go down.
Pillow and vert claimed they did it for 5-10 minutes without any humans getting hit, until everyone finally went over to it and died.
*edit*
Apparently, it's due to being able to see survivors. If the tank climbs up on the plane-loading arm and can see the survivors in the distance through the slits in the wall, the meter never expires. Or, it may be the case that if you can see survivors but they don't attack you your meter doesn't go down.
Yea, the slits in the loading arm afforded the Tank the visibility to be to just sit there and never have his rage meter budge. Vert and Pillow were touting this Tank Stasis phenomenon as some sort of solution to camping and as a good thing, but I don't see it as anything other than an ugly loophole. It harms more than it helps. My reasons follow.
It Defies Design
It goes against what the Tank was designed to play as (Refer to the Valve commentary supplied with the game, they want players to be aggressive, something in the vein of AI Tanks). A Tank is supposed to run around, throw rocks, punch things and charge in with arms swinging. He's supposed to be active in causing chaos! Sitting in one place and twiddling his thumbs is blatantly not Tank-like.
The Smoker and Boomer limit movement out of necessity, Tanks should be moving out of necessity. This stalling of the rage system just toys with the design and renders Tanks into closet monsters. Which design is more attractive? Hulking Menaces or Dust Collectors? The answer should be obvious.
It Defies Balance
It actively works against a player's previously confirmed knowledge of the rage-meter and is a clunky solution to camping. It would simply be better to fix the levels or fix the meter, having spots where the Tank can camp and wait for the humans is a poor solution. Fixing camping by introducing camping doesn't work, it just switches which side gets frustrated.
The reason it defies balance is because it's unstable. Levels vary from each other a great deal, and this problem is small on some and large on others (Dead Air 5). If this was balanced, it wouldn't gravitate to these extremes, but it clearly does. This or the more blatant spots in levels need to be tweaked, certain points such as in Dead Air 5 don't work very well with the system.
It Defies Communication
The loophole is not communicated to the human players at all. In tonight's Gaf game, my team was as confused as hell, we didn't know what exactly was required to solve this issue of the rage meter never trickling down. This isn't an aspect of the game that is logically communicated like Hunter pouncing, Tank throwing, Boomer barfing, or even the basic elements of the Rage meter itself.
One could argue that there are elements of a game that aren't communicated. Fair enough, but this little loophole can and does have a big effect on the outcomes of games. This isn't the same as the non-communicated key for voice chat or the non-communicated number of collision detection arcs in a stream of Boomer vomit. I doubt even ten percent of the population know how this loophole works, let alone what they have to do to counter it. They'll go and try to find the Tank after a little while, but they still don't know why he hasn't shown his face or just how they've been had.
There's no feedback, the Tank just goes away and hides while his teammates get an infinite amount of spawns to work with. Blaming the victim in this case is stupid, survivors shouldn't have to actively work against the other team to prevent them from using a quirk of the game rules against them. Their only responsibility is to survive and not to police the other team. The game rules are tasked with policing, right now they may be insufficient to dissuade Tank Stasis.
It Defies Purpose
It defeats the purpose of the rage meter. The Tank wants battle, and the longer he stays out of the fight, the more frustrated he gets. Having a Tank sit still in a loading arm for five minutes and be absolutely peachy doesn't make sense. If he can see the survivors and isn't fighting them, he should be angry, even more than if they were hidden. It renders an angry beast inexplicably docile and a good feature ineffectual.
If the rage meter can't get players to get into the fray, then its purpose isn't being fulfilled. If its purpose isn't being fulfilled, the game becomes boring and frustrating. If the game becomes boring and frustrating, your players aren't going to be too eager to play Versus.
Conclusion
What the game would benefit from is a real solution to camping, not this loophole in the Rage Meter system that encourages human movement at the expense of design, balance, communication, and purpose. It simply breaks more than it fixes.
One solution might be to tweak just how effective this "rage sight" is. If a Tank parks himself somewhere and the humans are still in sight (like on the boarding arm in DA5 that has a view of pretty much everywhere), let the meter deplete, with it depleting down faster the further he is away while he's doing it.
Once you know about it you can of course counter it, but that doesn't make it any less ugly. Give it a while for word of this issue to spread, the Tank Stasis is probably going to make Dead Air 5 a lot less enjoyable for human players.
It Defies Design
It goes against what the Tank was designed to play as (Refer to the Valve commentary supplied with the game, they want players to be aggressive, something in the vein of AI Tanks). A Tank is supposed to run around, throw rocks, punch things and charge in with arms swinging. He's supposed to be active in causing chaos! Sitting in one place and twiddling his thumbs is blatantly not Tank-like.
The Smoker and Boomer limit movement out of necessity, Tanks should be moving out of necessity. This stalling of the rage system just toys with the design and renders Tanks into closet monsters. Which design is more attractive? Hulking Menaces or Dust Collectors? The answer should be obvious.
It Defies Balance
It actively works against a player's previously confirmed knowledge of the rage-meter and is a clunky solution to camping. It would simply be better to fix the levels or fix the meter, having spots where the Tank can camp and wait for the humans is a poor solution. Fixing camping by introducing camping doesn't work, it just switches which side gets frustrated.
The reason it defies balance is because it's unstable. Levels vary from each other a great deal, and this problem is small on some and large on others (Dead Air 5). If this was balanced, it wouldn't gravitate to these extremes, but it clearly does. This or the more blatant spots in levels need to be tweaked, certain points such as in Dead Air 5 don't work very well with the system.
It Defies Communication
The loophole is not communicated to the human players at all. In tonight's Gaf game, my team was as confused as hell, we didn't know what exactly was required to solve this issue of the rage meter never trickling down. This isn't an aspect of the game that is logically communicated like Hunter pouncing, Tank throwing, Boomer barfing, or even the basic elements of the Rage meter itself.
One could argue that there are elements of a game that aren't communicated. Fair enough, but this little loophole can and does have a big effect on the outcomes of games. This isn't the same as the non-communicated key for voice chat or the non-communicated number of collision detection arcs in a stream of Boomer vomit. I doubt even ten percent of the population know how this loophole works, let alone what they have to do to counter it. They'll go and try to find the Tank after a little while, but they still don't know why he hasn't shown his face or just how they've been had.
There's no feedback, the Tank just goes away and hides while his teammates get an infinite amount of spawns to work with. Blaming the victim in this case is stupid, survivors shouldn't have to actively work against the other team to prevent them from using a quirk of the game rules against them. Their only responsibility is to survive and not to police the other team. The game rules are tasked with policing, right now they may be insufficient to dissuade Tank Stasis.
It Defies Purpose
It defeats the purpose of the rage meter. The Tank wants battle, and the longer he stays out of the fight, the more frustrated he gets. Having a Tank sit still in a loading arm for five minutes and be absolutely peachy doesn't make sense. If he can see the survivors and isn't fighting them, he should be angry, even more than if they were hidden. It renders an angry beast inexplicably docile and a good feature ineffectual.
If the rage meter can't get players to get into the fray, then its purpose isn't being fulfilled. If its purpose isn't being fulfilled, the game becomes boring and frustrating. If the game becomes boring and frustrating, your players aren't going to be too eager to play Versus.
Conclusion
What the game would benefit from is a real solution to camping, not this loophole in the Rage Meter system that encourages human movement at the expense of design, balance, communication, and purpose. It simply breaks more than it fixes.
One solution might be to tweak just how effective this "rage sight" is. If a Tank parks himself somewhere and the humans are still in sight (like on the boarding arm in DA5 that has a view of pretty much everywhere), let the meter deplete, with it depleting down faster the further he is away while he's doing it.
Once you know about it you can of course counter it, but that doesn't make it any less ugly. Give it a while for word of this issue to spread, the Tank Stasis is probably going to make Dead Air 5 a lot less enjoyable for human players.
Red Scarlet
Member
I always thought the meter went down unless a survivor or punchable object was hit, then it was changed to a survivor being hit? But I guess not. They should change it to a survivor being PUNCHED, so we don't have 8-minute Tanks on the Death Toll finale due to people just throwing rocks all day..I imagine the Dead Air thing is just as frustrating.
Red Scarlet said:
I think I've only played that finale once or twice, but isn't the bigger side of the problem the survivors just camp in the frickin water and the infected have no decent method of attack? Maybe they should just wall the water off and that'll solve both issues.
I'm going to enjoy ripping your argument to shreds Botolf :lol
If what you are saying is true, then Valve wouldn't have designed the rage meter the way they did. However they did, and thus your whole defying design argument is rendered moot. Yes the tank can smash shit, but that is just ONE option for the tank.
First off, it ISN'T confirmed knowledge if it is wrong. Which your assumption of how the rage meter works was. And it doesn't defy balance AT ALL. It's absolutely stupid for a tank to rush in while the survivors all have green health and tier 2 weapons because the tank WILL get slaughtered. Also, there is nothing wrong with levels varying from each other. I don't see how anyone can say its unstable. It's just another technique that can be used on some levels like how tank can punch survivors off of buildings in some levels.
Also, gameplay wise, the balance is not ruined at all. Camping like is actually FAR MORE dangerous for the Tank than if he were to go in and try to swipe the survivors. Why? Because all the survivors have to do is either A) rush in with tier 2 weapons and blast the shit outta the tank, B) shoot thru the wall to hit the tank while he is capable of doing nothing or C) Sit there like retards and do nothing while the normal special infected keep launching attacks on you. Obviously C is a stupidchoice, but in both A and B the survivors gain a massive advantage. Not to mention the survivors can also use the slow movement stuff to sneak up on tank.
Blaming the victim is not stupid at all. One requirement for competitive games is to have knowledge of the game. Which is what this is. Valve has known about this since day 1 and they have done nothing at all to fix it. Obviously it's intended and therefore not an exploit, bug or glitch. Therefore this is legit knowledge to know and USE. Also, you obviously don't understand the purpose of versus. Yes, the survivors can survive, but the main goal of the survivors is to gain more points. Not to survive. If you want to survive, go play campaign. The entire point of versus is to gain more points and surviving is just one way to achieve that. Also, in most competitive games, most of the population has no idea about half the stuff that goes on behind the backgrounds in games. Finding out how things works is part of playing a game.
Your team was confused, but how is that a problem? It is your teams fault for not knowing about it.
Once again, Valve designed the meter this way. So you can't be the one to say what the purpose of the rage meter is. Fixing this so called problem is pathetically easy, yet Valve has not done so. Obviously, you don't get Valve's purpose for the meter. If you can see the survivors, the survivors can see you and/or shoot at you. The meter is simply there to prevent the tank from running far away.
Also to say the game becomes boring and frustrating just because tank can camp is absolutely stupid and over exaggerated.
Once again, the rage meter was designed this way by Valve, so I really doubt they are going to fix it. Also more people knowing about this is not going to make the finale any less enjoyable. If players get frustrated just because things don't work the way they expect it to, they were never good players to begin with.
I honestly don't see how this is a problem at all. If you want to run in with tank while the survivors have tier 2 weapons and green health, be my guest. I'll do the smart thing and act cautious.
Hopefully my grammar and shit is correct
If what you are saying is true, then Valve wouldn't have designed the rage meter the way they did. However they did, and thus your whole defying design argument is rendered moot. Yes the tank can smash shit, but that is just ONE option for the tank.
First off, it ISN'T confirmed knowledge if it is wrong. Which your assumption of how the rage meter works was. And it doesn't defy balance AT ALL. It's absolutely stupid for a tank to rush in while the survivors all have green health and tier 2 weapons because the tank WILL get slaughtered. Also, there is nothing wrong with levels varying from each other. I don't see how anyone can say its unstable. It's just another technique that can be used on some levels like how tank can punch survivors off of buildings in some levels.
Also, gameplay wise, the balance is not ruined at all. Camping like is actually FAR MORE dangerous for the Tank than if he were to go in and try to swipe the survivors. Why? Because all the survivors have to do is either A) rush in with tier 2 weapons and blast the shit outta the tank, B) shoot thru the wall to hit the tank while he is capable of doing nothing or C) Sit there like retards and do nothing while the normal special infected keep launching attacks on you. Obviously C is a stupidchoice, but in both A and B the survivors gain a massive advantage. Not to mention the survivors can also use the slow movement stuff to sneak up on tank.
Blaming the victim is not stupid at all. One requirement for competitive games is to have knowledge of the game. Which is what this is. Valve has known about this since day 1 and they have done nothing at all to fix it. Obviously it's intended and therefore not an exploit, bug or glitch. Therefore this is legit knowledge to know and USE. Also, you obviously don't understand the purpose of versus. Yes, the survivors can survive, but the main goal of the survivors is to gain more points. Not to survive. If you want to survive, go play campaign. The entire point of versus is to gain more points and surviving is just one way to achieve that. Also, in most competitive games, most of the population has no idea about half the stuff that goes on behind the backgrounds in games. Finding out how things works is part of playing a game.
Your team was confused, but how is that a problem? It is your teams fault for not knowing about it.
Once again, Valve designed the meter this way. So you can't be the one to say what the purpose of the rage meter is. Fixing this so called problem is pathetically easy, yet Valve has not done so. Obviously, you don't get Valve's purpose for the meter. If you can see the survivors, the survivors can see you and/or shoot at you. The meter is simply there to prevent the tank from running far away.
Also to say the game becomes boring and frustrating just because tank can camp is absolutely stupid and over exaggerated.
Once again, the rage meter was designed this way by Valve, so I really doubt they are going to fix it. Also more people knowing about this is not going to make the finale any less enjoyable. If players get frustrated just because things don't work the way they expect it to, they were never good players to begin with.
I honestly don't see how this is a problem at all. If you want to run in with tank while the survivors have tier 2 weapons and green health, be my guest. I'll do the smart thing and act cautious.
Hopefully my grammar and shit is correct
RocketDarkness
Member
Your grammar is more than adequate. I see both sides of the issue, but I feel as long as Valve leaves it in, it's a perfectly valid tactic. God knows how often everyone took advantage of tank parking while it was an option. This is just another tactic that will be exploited until a counter is developed.
RocketDarkness
Member
Ventrue said:
If the tank is a certain distance away, but can see the survivors, the control meter never depletes.
Red Scarlet said:
That would be a TERRIBLE idea. Running away and camping with rocks are pretty much the only decent strategies with tanks in my opinion, unless there is something very situational where there happens to be lots of carts, cars, or dumpsters around and the survivors are in a narrow spot or a corner.
If they changed it to only reset when a survivor was punched, then the tank would pretty much be forced to run into the middle of the survivors, which is EXACTLY what tanks do most of the time, resulting in them dying in 5-10 seconds to assault rifles (plus being even easier to set on fire). It would make tanks even worse, unless you could nerf damage to the tank some more. Plus picking up a rock to shield yourself from damage would mean your meter would keep running out, and hitting a dumpster through three survivors would mean your meter would keep running out (though at that point it wouldn't matter as much).
Ooh, time for some srs bzns argumentation! :lol
Except case B was unfeasible due to the fact that no one could see the tank, and the infected team told us it was an AI tank and stuck. I think I even picked up a sniper rifle and tried shooting at the slits, but from the distance away survivors are (if you pick the safer spots in that level) you cannot see that the tank is behind the slits. That was the issue -- not that you were camping, but that you were looking through tiny holes to produce an effect that I've never heard anyone discuss on the forum or ingame, while lying to the other team by claiming a glitch was occurring (lying about plans is one thing, but lying about glitches is another, since people who are decent sports will sometimes wait or respond according to what you say if you claim you're afk, or a glitch is happening).
Case A can also be extremely dangerous for the survivors depending on where the tank is. Dead air 5 is one of those cases due to the location of the luggage carts. When my team finally went over to find the tank, the three of them who stayed in front promptly got owned by a luggage cart (after Volc got smokered towards the tank, also). Shocking. I only survived a little longer, and then a smoker got me.
[citation needed]. I have never seen this discussed on this thread or ingame, and none of my team members seemed to know about it either. Link to the official Valve forums discussing it from "day 1" or something, and I'll admit that I don't read those forums typically.
srsly? Seriously? :lol :lol :lol If you don't survive you get a maximum of 200 points. Feel free to try to win doing that over a team that survives. The very reason that so many teams lose the game after winning most of it on Dead Air is that the other team survives the finale. Just ask Scarlet, me, or any number of other people who've had it happen.
Overall, the post has decent emotional impact behind it, but falls short at certain key points. I rate the poster a B-, and suggest that he has difficulty operating a hunting rifle.
vertopci said:
Except case B was unfeasible due to the fact that no one could see the tank, and the infected team told us it was an AI tank and stuck. I think I even picked up a sniper rifle and tried shooting at the slits, but from the distance away survivors are (if you pick the safer spots in that level) you cannot see that the tank is behind the slits. That was the issue -- not that you were camping, but that you were looking through tiny holes to produce an effect that I've never heard anyone discuss on the forum or ingame, while lying to the other team by claiming a glitch was occurring (lying about plans is one thing, but lying about glitches is another, since people who are decent sports will sometimes wait or respond according to what you say if you claim you're afk, or a glitch is happening).
Case A can also be extremely dangerous for the survivors depending on where the tank is. Dead air 5 is one of those cases due to the location of the luggage carts. When my team finally went over to find the tank, the three of them who stayed in front promptly got owned by a luggage cart (after Volc got smokered towards the tank, also). Shocking. I only survived a little longer, and then a smoker got me.
vertopci said:
[citation needed]. I have never seen this discussed on this thread or ingame, and none of my team members seemed to know about it either. Link to the official Valve forums discussing it from "day 1" or something, and I'll admit that I don't read those forums typically.
vertopci said:
srsly? Seriously? :lol :lol :lol If you don't survive you get a maximum of 200 points. Feel free to try to win doing that over a team that survives. The very reason that so many teams lose the game after winning most of it on Dead Air is that the other team survives the finale. Just ask Scarlet, me, or any number of other people who've had it happen.
Overall, the post has decent emotional impact behind it, but falls short at certain key points. I rate the poster a B-, and suggest that he has difficulty operating a hunting rifle.
Visualante
Member
Yeah I throw rocks.. if people are going to camp the water then they can eat rock. Map is flawed, might as well not have a tank at all until the boat arrives.1-D_FTW said:
Blizzard said:Case A can also be extremely dangerous for the survivors depending on where the tank is. Dead air 5 is one of those cases due to the location of the luggage carts. When my team finally went over to find the tank, the three of them who stayed in front promptly got owned by a luggage cart (after Volc got smokered towards the tank, also). Shocking. I only survived a little longer, and then a smoker got me.
Wrong. I didn't get smokered. I went behind the crashed plane in the pit and shot the tank in the back, then you bitched about me going over there saying I was gonna get hit by a cart, then amusingly enough the other two teammates got hit by a cart, and I only got hit by a cart when going back to help them. I never got smokered. If you mean before the tank even left the tower, that didn't even matter, it had no bearing on the final outcome, the tank wasn't even down on our level.
PillowKnight
Member
You must mean survivors being wimps. I've never had a tank last more than two minutes against my teams.Red Scarlet said:
Blizzard said:
Once again, NOT MY PROBLEM. Knowing the game is part of competitive play and if your team doesn't know something my team does, it's your teams fault, not mine.
Blizzard said:
Whether you like it or not, Versus is about getting points, not necessarily surviving. The entire point of infected is to reduce the health bonus or in the best case scenario, incap all the survivors. The entire point of survivors is to get the most points, the best case being everyone survives. Yes survival is important, no doubt, but not the crux of versus.
BTW, whoever came to blast me (I think Volc?) is the only one who can complain about anything seeing as how he was the only one who did anything. The rest of you just stood and expected everything to happen like it always does. The same old thing didn't happen, and now you are all bitching about a legit tactic.
RocketDarkness said:
There is a counter already. A very simple one. Shoot the tank at least once every now and then and his rage will decrease.
The tactic is honestly a double edged sword so I'm not seeing why people continue to complain about it.
vertopci said:
No, you claimed it was A) known by Valve "since day 1" and possibly B) "common knowledge". As stated, I've never seen it discussed anywhere here, and lying to the opposite team by claiming your team is experiencing a glitch is not good sportsmanship.
So, you missed the point and still haven't proven that Valve knew about it or its effect on that finale.
(and editing, as I stated before we couldn't see the tank. I don't think I was able to see it with a sniper rifle, so we weren't ignoring a known tank location by choice)
vertopci said:
I'm not even sure what you're saying. Yes, you win with more points. But you get A TON MORE POINTS BY SURVIVING. How is that not obvious? :lol If you don't survive and the other team does, they typically get far more points. So what's your point, and what does this have to do with the tank?
Blizzard said:
First off, if you do a little googling, you'll find a decent amount on stuff about the tank camping. I think there is even a post on the steam forums. Search for whatever tank guides are on there or something. Also teh fact that I knew about it before Dead Air was released show it has been there from the start. In fact, I've used this technique a couple times before on BH, although I was a bit confused on how exactly it worked back then. I actually assumed it was a glitch.
Secondly, do you really think Valve would somehow accidentally program the rage meter to NOT decrease in this case? The way most of you thought it worked before would just require a constant decrease to the meter, fairly simple to do. However it's a bit more complicated in its current form and for Valve to somehow accidentally program it this way is just plain stupid of them since it requires much more work for them.
Also, I never said it was common knowledge. However it is still knowledge and still your teams fault for not knowing.
And the lying was just a bait to get your team to stop being such wussies and actually charge the tank. Otherwise the normal special infected would have killed you guys instead of the tank. Sorry for trying to help your team.
Bot mentioned that the entire point of survivors was to survive. I said that was wrong and that the entire point of survivors is to get as many points as possible. Both the points made by Bot and I are different. Maybe not much different, but still different.
You can't tear an argument to shreds when you misrepresent the position and prop up strawmen, vert.
Things to remember
- Not all aspects of an enemy's design are intended or even expected. That could easily be the case here, and I'm inclined to believe this result was not desirable. Will it be fixed? Depends on if it becomes as big of a nuisance on other maps as DA5, I guess.
- I never said the Tank should rush in at every opportunity. What I said was that he shouldn't be and isn't supposed to be a camping class. Running around and punching and throwing stuff is sufficient, because he's moving! If you believe that this camping is a part of how the Tank is supposed to be, go dig into the commentary and any relevant interviews. This loophole sounds nothing like a desirable part of how the Tank was designed.
- Blaming the victim is idiotic because this is more or less secret knowledge, only a few even know this loophole exists. Why would people assume it exists? It defies their previous assumptions of how the game works and isn't apparent in the slightest. But then again, I can't really expect somebody who's reaping the benefits to be sympathetic -_-.
- It's boring and frustrating, period, that last finale wasn't exactly fun for us on the receiving end. Keep that in mind.
Valve's take on the design:
http://botolf.googlepages.com/com-keeptankchar.wav
Notice the distinct lack of "oh, and we want them to sit still in raised parts of levels to stall the rage timer indefinitely". It was designed around sight, but in the case of spots like the boarding arm on DA5, it doesn't behave well, the Tank stays hidden and the meter becomes a non-factor. The Tank becomes a closet monster.
You're bickering over pointless semantics.
Things to remember
- Not all aspects of an enemy's design are intended or even expected. That could easily be the case here, and I'm inclined to believe this result was not desirable. Will it be fixed? Depends on if it becomes as big of a nuisance on other maps as DA5, I guess.
- I never said the Tank should rush in at every opportunity. What I said was that he shouldn't be and isn't supposed to be a camping class. Running around and punching and throwing stuff is sufficient, because he's moving! If you believe that this camping is a part of how the Tank is supposed to be, go dig into the commentary and any relevant interviews. This loophole sounds nothing like a desirable part of how the Tank was designed.
- Blaming the victim is idiotic because this is more or less secret knowledge, only a few even know this loophole exists. Why would people assume it exists? It defies their previous assumptions of how the game works and isn't apparent in the slightest. But then again, I can't really expect somebody who's reaping the benefits to be sympathetic -_-.
- It's boring and frustrating, period, that last finale wasn't exactly fun for us on the receiving end. Keep that in mind.
Valve's take on the design:
http://botolf.googlepages.com/com-keeptankchar.wav
Notice the distinct lack of "oh, and we want them to sit still in raised parts of levels to stall the rage timer indefinitely". It was designed around sight, but in the case of spots like the boarding arm on DA5, it doesn't behave well, the Tank stays hidden and the meter becomes a non-factor. The Tank becomes a closet monster.
And where were you guys as humans? Oh, right, backs up against a wall in the pit. Pot, kettle.vertopci said:
Survival = more points
You're bickering over pointless semantics.
The smart thing to do next time would be to forgo the strawmen and address what I'm actually saying. In several instances you're arguing with the wind, with statements I never said and positions I never took!
vertopci said:
It took Valve nearly 3 months (or more) to even get Dead Air up and running in versus. I don't think it's unreasonable that the effect in that level might have been unforeseen. See all the other things that were in from the start but were eventually changed in some form. It would have been relatively easy to command the tank to attack when it changes to AI control, I'm guessing. But, the developers initially left it sitting still, until everyone started using the "tank parking" strategy. I actually liked that, since it let a good infected team gain a better strategic fighting position if they received a bad tank spawn.
I'm a big fan of being annoying to other teams, especially if I'm using a tank. I love throwing rocks and hiding, and as I said before I think camping and hiding is often by far the best strategy for a tank, since if you get in sight of the survivors you tend to die in 5-10 seconds, and/or get set on fire. If anything, I might not object to the tank being made more powerful. But on the dead air finale, I don't know if I could bring myself to abuse that spot, even to bring it to wider attention...I'd get bored and try to use carts or something.
If Valve wishes to fix it, I couldn't care. There are still several other spots where this could still be used.
Camping isn't necessarily how a tank is supposed to act, but it should definitely be an option for him. If the survivors are in the water in DT5, would you not just camp and throw rocks?
I don't see how its a loophole. Even in that audio clip you posted below, he specifically says that that rage meter doesn't decrease as long as the survivors are in sight.
So you KNEW this already and I'm pretty sure you knew slits were on those boarding arms. All you had to do was put two and two together.
Not my fault you guys were expecting the same exact thing as always to happen. Did you really expect someone to charge towards the survivors while they all had green health? Sure there are things you can hit, but it's fairly easy for green health survivors to evade them. Especially around the plane.
If they really wanted to force the whole rush in and fuck shit up thing, why not give the Tank more health and spawn him already on FIRE? The guy in the commentary says something along the lines of "We wanted players to act more tank-like" not completely like an AI tank. They never intended the design of the player tanks to be exactly like the AI tank. They simply needed players to act a slight bit more tank-like in order to balance the game. The meter does that as well as letting players do their own thing as tank.
?? Not sure what the point of this sentence was
Botolf said:
Only because the rest of the team was following the first dude who left the group to find me. Not only that, but you all ran away after you found me instead of EASILY killing the tank in that spot. Not only that, but even after running away, you guys did absolutely nothing to me even though you knew exactly where I was.
edit: I refuse to waste any more time on this stupid argument.
I wouldn't mind a fix, or at least some prop obstructions on the slits so the field of view isn't so expansive.vertopci said:
My solution would be to try to fix the water first instead of giving the Tank incentive to hide. More cover in the water wouldn't hurt for starters. Wrecked fishing boats would make sense.
It's not as simple as "putting two and two together". I'm not a programmer or designer, I don't know the constraints of the rage vision system like the back of my hand. A group of players happened upon it one day, word spread and here we are. I always had assumed that the visual range was shorter, but that's not an entirely unreasonable assumption to make.
We're not idiots, we weren't honestly expecting to see you charging in mindlessly, what we were expecting was to see you be evasive, not hiding. That's the thing about secret knowledge, it remains secret for a good while.
Yea, but I don't think avoiding all combat altogether is a positive choice to make as a Tank. It's boring and frustrating, and completely un-Tanklike. It's an extreme the game would be better off without.
We were running because you were tossing rocks (one of which hit me in mid-stride). We could have pressed, but we didn't. Doesn't mean Volc was flying alone and the only member of the team doing anything.
I concur that it is stupid. Having said that, you're walking out on me?! We made beautiful vitriol together
Red Scarlet
Member
Blizzard said:
I find 5+ minute Tanks to be pretty boring. I haven't encountered the Dead Air Tank thing you guys are talking about though, so I'm going to stay out of that whole thing.
PillowKnight said:
Yes you have.