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The PlayStation 5 GPU Will Be Supported By Better Hardware Solutions, In Depth Analysis Suggests

We will know that PS5's design approach is spot on when we find out the make-up of AMD's RDNA2 dGPU's coming later this year.

If these GPUs focus more on frequency and fixed-function accelerators (like PS5) and less on CUs (Series X), it will be very telling. What I'm saying is, I am expecting more than 36 CUs as dGPUs have the chip space and power budget to allow that, but we are also expecting lots of space on the chip (a focus, if you like) on fixed-function accelerators.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Glad your so confident that PS5 will be weak and not push above its weight, I would not be so confident. My prediction, for games with last gen assets XSX will dominate, with larger games and assets > 10 GB both will be similarly memory bandwidth bound and difference will be neglible.



Your calcs are different to others...and below has serious expertise on this stuff.

AjKaTko.png
You see the little point of "per TF" in above quote? OP was not talking about that, but was averaging bandwidth after deducting 2.5GB from the faster RAM pool. I do not claim this is a meaningful metric, it is a metric an idiot would come up with, but that is what the in-depth analyst in the op came up with. He did it in a deceptive way by taking away the 2.5GB from the faster RAM pool, which obviously is not going to be what is happening, in his attempt to do console warring for PS5. I merely corrected the computation on his dumb metric. Please note that the "per TF" view does have some merit to it, but that of course means that you get worse speed values with the same RAM configuration just by increasing the TF of the GPU. That does not indicate a higher performance of the weaker system, it would merely indicate that the RAM in proportion to the computational speed of the GPU is slower.
 

N1tr0sOx1d3

Given another chance
Look it all comes down to the games....and well........MS hasn't really set the charts alight this Gen what with Crackdown 3, Halo 5, Master Chief Collection all of which should have been outstanding.

Sony hands down, destroyed this gen due to its killer game catalogue, the same will be true next gen and the gen after that.

I'm sorry but these are facts.

Enjoy your console of choice, but lets not pretend that Hardware makes the games.....just look at the killer titles on the Switch which is far behind on the technology front.
 
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Look it all comes down to the games....and well........MS hasn't really set the charts alight this Gen what with Crackdown 3, Halo 5, Master Chief Collection all of which should have been outstanding.

Sony hands down, destroyed this gen due to its killer game catalogue, the same will be true next gen and the gen after that.

I'm sorry but these are facts.

Enjoy your console of choice, but lets not pretend that Hardware makes the games.....just look at the killer titles on the Switch which is far behind on the technology front.
More time travelers, great.
 
Sony hands down, destroyed this gen due to its killer game catalogue, the same will be true next gen and the gen after that.

I'm sorry but these are facts.
For me, they were both shit this gen, while I loved Sonys output when we were still on the PS3.
"Facts" are a bit debatable when personal preferences in games are such a big thing.

MS is hungry & did the right moves though, and I am really interested in what they will bring to the table next gen.
If it's poo as well, I will just stay playing my old consoles.
 
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N1tr0sOx1d3

Given another chance
For me, they were both shit this gen, while I loved Sonys output when we were still on the PS3.
"Facts" are a bit debatable when personal preferences in games are such a big thing.

MS is hungry & did the right moves though, and I am really interested in what they will bring to the table next gen.
If it's poo as well, I will just stay playing my old consoles.

I wholeheartedly agree. This gen has been marred with DLC, MTX, bug ridden, disappointing games. I hope lessons have been learned going forwards. This gen has been weighted towards anti-consumer.

But there were some good games right?
Gears 5, Forza Horizon 4, Spiderman, Bloodborne? To name but a few....

I'm invested in both Xbox and PS and love technology progression, but hand on heart it does come down to the software and that is where Sony has the advantage thus far.
 
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Someone hasn't read the OP.

The general idea is both are powerful in terms of compute (teraflops) but Sony, instead of pushing even higher up to 12 tflops, have deemed this unnecessary use of their transistor budget and instead have focused on the paradigm shift of solving the memory communication bottleneck with their game-changing SSD implementation and focus on accelerators on their chip instead of CUs. Cerny/Sony is showing greater foresight imo.

Series X design is more standard = put loads of CUs in their GPU. PS5 is more forward looking, with less CUs but more accelerator cores and faster communication across components.
This reads like official PR, dial it back.

Microsoft's system is doing everything possible to eliminate bottlenecks as well, you're spinning hard.
 

Three

Gold Member
I’ve watched it three times.

It’s clear to me that they bumped the clocks and slappes together this variable frequency nonsense when they realized the power gap would have been 3tf, 12 vs 9 looks way worse on paper than 12.1 vs 10.28.
The 'variable frequency' is a technology from AMD called smartshift. There is actually a product with it already out. It isn't some last minute overclock nonsense people are trying to make it out to be.
 
This reads like official PR, dial it back.

Microsoft's system is doing everything possible to eliminate bottlenecks as well, you're spinning hard.

Don't be insecure about it, I know MS are trying to remove bottlenecks, as any console manufacturer should, they're not stupid.

It just seems they have been outmanouvered spending too much of their transistor budget on increasing CUs when a more effective use of silicon would be to include space of fixed-function accelerators, like PS5.
 
The 'variable frequency' is a technology from AMD called smartshift. There is actually a product with it already out. It isn't some last minute overclock nonsense people are trying to make it out to be.
So why don’t you explain how smartshift works, or doesn’t that fit your narrative ? So basically it works like this, pushing CPU clock speeds reduces GPU clock speeds and the opposite. So in essence it is either less than 10 TF or much less than 3.5 GHz for the CPU, great solution for developers developing on a console 😂😂😂
 

Three

Gold Member
So why don’t you explain how smartshift works, or doesn’t that fit your narrative ? So basically it works like this, pushing CPU clock speeds reduces GPU clock speeds and the opposite. So in essence it is either less than 10 TF or much less than 3.5 GHz for the CPU, great solution for developers developing on a console 😂😂😂
Because it was irrelevant. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative which is console warring bullshit. I merely made a point that this 'variable frequency' isn't some slappdashed last minute overclocking response, it's tech that is out and has existed for a while. How it works you can search on your own.
 
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K.N.W.

Member
Very possible but also they may not want to have the same $100 price gap. If Sony was able to take a $200 loss with the Ps3, I don't see ms not being able to do the same.
I'm not so sure, at that time, Sony was still selling lots of games on PS2, and had an high income. They were also pushing PS3 so they could sell more Blu-Ray discs, if the PS3 wouldn't had taken off they would had at least pushed their medium . Microsoft on the other hand, isn't selling that many games on X1, nor has an additional goal in selling the console. Plus they already have spent quite a lot of money in studio acquisitions. I think the one more likely to undercut their price is Sony, again.
 
Because it was irrelevant. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative which is console warring bullshit. I merely made a point that this 'variable frequency' isn't some slappdashed last minute overclocking response, it's tech that is out and has existed for a while. How it works you can search on your own.
Irrelevant eh ? Well I have seen people, in their attempt to defend the ps5 shitty specs, saying that the ps5 architecture actually doesn’t use smartshift. Yes the ps5 GPU basically had a last minute overclocking response when Sony learned what MS was preparing hence the variable clock speed bullshit.
Sony wanted a cheap console , just like they did with the mediocre ps4, they were just caught with their pants down when MS went all in and tried to close the gap of their 36 CU console by overclocking this thing to heights that makes every serious tech site smile, to put it politely. (Digital foundry, Tom’s hardware e.t.c).
 
I'm not so sure, at that time, Sony was still selling lots of games on PS2, and had an high income. They were also pushing PS3 so they could sell more Blu-Ray discs, if the PS3 wouldn't had taken off they would had at least pushed their medium . Microsoft on the other hand, isn't selling that many games on X1, nor has an additional goal in selling the console. Plus they already have spent quite a lot of money in studio acquisitions. I think the one more likely to undercut their price is Sony, again.
Sony lost 5 billion on the ps3 , erasing all the profits the PlayStation division had made since the release of the ps1.
 
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I do believe the xbox is a good console i just think the ps5 will be a better engineered device.
Cerny made it clear that he wanted less bottlenecks and more of a focus on optimisation and innovation.

Look what they are doing with all the bandwith ,ssd, triggers, audio etc,

SSD's were innovation about 10 years ago.
 
Irrelevant eh ? Well I have seen people, in their attempt to defend the ps5 shitty specs, saying that the ps5 architecture actually doesn’t use smartshift. Yes the ps5 GPU basically had a last minute overclocking response when Sony learned what MS was preparing hence the variable clock speed bullshit.
Sony wanted a cheap console , just like they did with the mediocre ps4, they were just caught with their pants down when MS went all in and tried to close the gap of their 36 CU console by overclocking this thing to heights that makes every serious tech site smile, to put it politely. (Digital foundry, Tom’s hardware e.t.c).

Nope. What MS did back in 2013 is "last minute". 2 months before launch.
 

Three

Gold Member
Sony wanted a cheap console , just like they did with the mediocre ps4, they were just caught with their pants down when MS went all in and tried to close the gap of their 36 CU console by overclocking this thing to heights that makes every serious tech site smile, to put it politely. (Digital foundry, Tom’s hardware e.t.c).
🙄 Whatever mate. Get out of here with that nonsense.
 
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SleepDoctor

Banned
I'm not so sure, at that time, Sony was still selling lots of games on PS2, and had an high income. They were also pushing PS3 so they could sell more Blu-Ray discs, if the PS3 wouldn't had taken off they would had at least pushed their medium . Microsoft on the other hand, isn't selling that many games on X1, nor has an additional goal in selling the console. Plus they already have spent quite a lot of money in studio acquisitions. I think the one more likely to undercut their price is Sony, again.


Microsoft is very invested in next gen already as is with the hardware specs, studio acquisitions, and with gamepass. Phil has said they wouldn't be out of position on power or price. So its hard to really guess where they will go.

If they're matched at price, it will be very interesting to see how xbox does. They've been fighting an uphill battle since the xbox one reveal.
 
Don't be insecure about it, I know MS are trying to remove bottlenecks, as any console manufacturer should, they're not stupid.

It just seems they have been outmanouvered spending too much of their transistor budget on increasing CUs when a more effective use of silicon would be to include space of fixed-function accelerators, like PS5.
No one is insecure, it's just a little crazy the kind of things coming out of you guys, it reads like it was written by robots.

It's clear that most of you don't understand basically anything you're talking about so you're mixing and matching lines, throwing out buzzwords from other things you've read on the internet, are ripping lines from Cerny's speech, and are trying to formulate discussion based upon that to appear more intellectual on the subject. Anyone who has even the least bit of hardware and systems knowledge can see right through it. What's more sad about most of the discussion here is so few can actually facilitate an argument based upon ingrained knowledge which they possess, there's a lot of running to other people.

For the Series X it doesn't at all appear like anything was wasted, on the contrary it appears as if every aspect of the system was intentionally chosen to fulfill a certain function. Higher CU count not only increases the rendering capabilities via higher levels of raster compute, it also increases the amount of RT hardware on the die.

Why is this important? Well the fact that the GPU has such an uplift in rasterization ability means it can not only render more than the PlayStation 5 in regular use cases, but when RT is in effect the surplus of compute can take the brunt of the impact and continue to operate efficiently. It will be able to handle render workloads and levels of Ray Tracing the PlayStation 5 simply cannot.

The memory subsystem is also more efficiently used here by parsing the pool into a hierarchy for priority usage. Not only is there more bandwidth in general spread across the RAMDAC's, there's a wider bus, and there's a higher uplift in bandwidth where it can be most effectively used and less where requirements are more limited. Things like this are done with explicit intention, they know exactly how this system operates, how it will be used, and to ensure the GPU gets ever ounce of bandwidth it needs. They could have put a uniformed pool of lesser memory in and called it a day but it would not only get them less bandwidth for the GPU, it would grant them more bandwidth for things that simply don't need it.

Sony's system isn't elegant, it's not more thought out, it doesn't have technological advantages which Microsoft isn't doing in their own ways not to mention several others which they've extensively outlined. It's merely taking much lesser hardware and pushing it to its operational limits while Microsoft's system is doing everything within safe operating parameters. Yes one is more expensive, but it's going to run cooler, it's going to run quieter, it's going to operate with less risk of instability or hardware failure, and it may even require less power. Sony using variable rates and shifting frequencies is extremely odd, because there's no practical need for it, it factually produces a less performative compute scenario. The only reason this would even be a factor is as I outline previously, they have exceeded the limitations of their bus so the machine must scale to not bottleneck.

You think that Microsoft has created this super expensive machine but completely fail to account for the cost of Sony's SSD. From what Microsoft has outlined the way they handle the storage relative to the rest of the system they have eliminated all the I/O bottlenecks themselves with a lesser SSD implementation, and with the velocity architecture there's 100GB's instantly accessible. Their drive is slower but it appears the way in which it is being used and the systems put in place for it have rendered intelligent workarounds which net them instant access regardless.

So Sony has this considerably more expensive SSD, and for what? It not only seems like a diminished return on so many levels, that SSD probably offsets the additional system cost MIcrosoft put into their memory interface and the GPU making them likely around the same cost.
 
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Three

Gold Member
The ps4 was an extremely conservative machine for its time of release that actually felt powerful because the Xbox one was shit.
I know you want to make everything about MS. Sony has smartshift, must be because they are responding to MS. Sony had the more powerful machine, must be because MS decided to release a weaker one. Like I said, whatever mate, I'm not interested in your console warring bullshit.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Irrelevant eh ? Well I have seen people, in their attempt to defend the ps5 shitty specs, saying that the ps5 architecture actually doesn’t use smartshift. Yes the ps5 GPU basically had a last minute overclocking response when Sony learned what MS was preparing hence the variable clock speed bullshit.
Sony wanted a cheap console , just like they did with the mediocre ps4, they were just caught with their pants down when MS went all in and tried to close the gap of their 36 CU console by overclocking this thing to heights that makes every serious tech site smile, to put it politely. (Digital foundry, Tom’s hardware e.t.c).

Yes, going for 36cus and very high clocks is such a backwards design, you are just making more problems, like heat and designing a sufficient cooling system.
It seems sony has come with smart and innovative solutions to a design not originally meant for such high clocks.
 

K.N.W.

Member
Microsoft is very invested in next gen already as is with the hardware specs, studio acquisitions, and with gamepass. Phil has said they wouldn't be out of position on power or price. So its hard to really guess where they will go.

If they're matched at price, it will be very interesting to see how xbox does. They've been fighting an uphill battle since the xbox one reveal.
I deeply believe that PS5's GPU has 2/3 the number of CUs just for pricing reasons, but yes, we have still to see how it will end up in reality.
 

Shmunter

Member
Common fans of one or the other. A solid TF count is always good, it cannot be disputed - more of a good thing is always better. But genuine fanfare and excitement must be given where it’s due.

Put aside your broadswords and pickaxes and take a moment to understand where dev pain comes from, and where limits are imposed. Breathe, take a moment to appreciate a system that takes massive strides to eliminates those boundaries as a priority. Only then will you have mastered the true ninjitsu of the next gen.
 
Common fans of one or the other. A solid TF count is always good, it cannot be disputed - more of a good thing is always better. But genuine fanfare and excitement must be given where it’s due.

Put aside your broadswords and pickaxes and take a moment to understand where dev pain comes from, and where limits are imposed. Breathe, take a moment to appreciate a system that takes massive strides to eliminates those boundaries as a priority. Only then will you have mastered the true ninjitsu of the next gen.
So both? Got it.
 

Shin

Banned
10% of 10.28TF = 9.25TF = GitHub leak = 38 min. of PS5's GDC video.
So yes it's a last minute thing of sort, add to that Bloomberg's article about heat/cost issues, the absurd GPU clock speed and you have the full picture.
It is what it is, no matter how much people sugar coat or try and spin.
 
10% of 10.28TF = 9.25TF = GitHub leak = 38 min. of PS5's GDC video.
So yes it's a last minute thing of sort, add to that Bloomberg's article about heat/cost issues, the absurd GPU clock speed and you have the full picture.
It is what it is, no matter how much people sugar coat or try and spin.
Not sure why people are so uppity about it either, it's pretty plain to see it WAS a 9.X teraflop system, and some post development changes were made so it could remain more competitive.

What's the problem?
 

K.N.W.

Member
or because it was a 2019 design at first
Or, much rather, Series X is a premium model.
Look here, the next Xbox is simply named "Xbox", "Series X" is one of the different models, and gives that "One X" vibe.


So, again, I think Sony really has price in mind.
 
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oldergamer

Member
The sony fans make the argument comparing amd to nvidia where nvidia can out perform amd with less CUs. However that argument falls apart when you consider that the above never happens when when its within a single companies gpu architecture.

All the gpu hardware on ps4 and xbox is from Amd. All of it is based on the navi architecture. Anyone that thinks two gpus built on the same architecture will have the lower spec gpu out perform the higher spec gpu is honestly a total fanboy dream. That simply doesn't happen without a massive revision to the architecture.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
The sony fans make the argument comparing amd to nvidia where nvidia can out perform amd with less CUs. However that argument falls apart when you consider that the above never happens when when its within a single companies gpu architecture.

All the gpu hardware on ps4 and xbox is from Amd. All of it is based on the navi architecture. Anyone that thinks two gpus built on the same architecture will have the lower spec gpu out perform the higher spec gpu is honestly a total fanboy dream. That simply doesn't happen without a massive revision to the architecture.

Does this mean Digital Foundry and Mark Cerny were liars for saying less CU's and higher clock brings better results than going "wide" with More CU's and lower clock speed?
 
10% of 10.28TF = 9.25TF = GitHub leak = 38 min. of PS5's GDC video.
So yes it's a last minute thing of sort, add to that Bloomberg's article about heat/cost issues, the absurd GPU clock speed and you have the full picture.
It is what it is, no matter how much people sugar coat or try and spin.

Nope!
Cerny said 10% drop in power consumption can be achieved by 2% drop in clock speed. That's not 10% drop in performance. Yet, articles about Sony's cooling solution was published during summer last year. But you need to do patent test and that can last months, years, actually. This is not a "last minute" move like MS did with Xbone 2 months before launch. Now you have the full picture. It's what it is, no matter how much people sugar coat or try and spin. Xbox fans are marvelous at spreading crap.
 
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The sony fans make the argument comparing amd to nvidia where nvidia can out perform amd with less CUs. However that argument falls apart when you consider that the above never happens when when its within a single companies gpu architecture.

All the gpu hardware on ps4 and xbox is from Amd. All of it is based on the navi architecture. Anyone that thinks two gpus built on the same architecture will have the lower spec gpu out perform the higher spec gpu is honestly a total fanboy dream. That simply doesn't happen without a massive revision to the architecture.

I'm shaking my head. WHAT?!?

Do you think the only measure of PERFORMANCE is a theoretical Tflop figure, despite Tflops being defined as only the computational capability of the vector ALU and is just one part of the GPU? Please answer that question and we know whether you are serious or not. How long have you been following processors?

Do you know about fixed function accelerators? Has it crossed your mind that PS5 may have more of these inside its GPU?
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Digital Foundry: Less CUs at a higher frequency brings better results than going wide with more CUs and lower frequencies. (Not an exact quote)
XboxGAF: There's no difference

Digital Foundry: "Solid state storage directly into the game may make a big difference to the experience we're going to be enjoying in the next generation."

XboxGAF: It's a pipe dream. It's nothing more than "secrete sauce". It will offer nothing more than 1-2 seconds of load times

I don't know why these guys go out of their way to say it's not true. It's crazy.
 

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Playstation-5-logo.jpg


The PlayStation 5 will feature a weaker GPU, compared to the Xbox Series X, but developers continue to praise the console.

Game devs being Sony fanboys confirmed?

The raw specs are definitely not painting the whole picture about the new consoles, and a recent in-depth analysis suggests that the Sony next-gen console's GPU will have a better system supporting it, resulting in better overall performance.

Gotta make that spin for the hype train.

0/10 thread. +1 though for the polish on that shining armor.
 
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SleepDoctor

Banned
I'm shaking my head. WHAT?!?

Do you think the only measure of PERFORMANCE is a theoretical Tflop figure, despite Tflops being defined as only the computational capability of the vector ALU and is just one part of the GPU? Please answer that question and we know whether you are serious or not. How long have you been following processors?

Do you know about fixed function accelerators? Has it crossed your mind that PS5 may have more of these inside its GPU?


When clueless people become armchair devs 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️


That doesn't make any sense. SSDs are orders of magnitude slower than GDDR6 VRAM. You can't substitute memory with the SSD.
You guys know that SSD speed is the most important spec right.....

:messenger_smiling_horns:


Before and after Cerny lol. Some people should just shut up if you're clueless instead of further embarrassing yourself.
 
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