Did you even read the article? Ninty and MS especially are on cloud nine compared to Sony, actually how can you even argue MS is hurting ... they post profit in their game division nearly every Q.
The Ten Years Decline of Sony
- Thread starter Canis lupus
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Did you even read the article? Ninty and MS especially are on cloud nine compared to Sony, actually how can you even argue MS is hurting ... they post profit in their game division nearly every Q.
megashock5
Member
I do occasionally wonder how things would have turned out if the Atari-branded NES deal had gone through.
Probably much the same.
That potential Sony/Nintendo CD-ROM drive for the SNES however could be something else entirely.
Is Nintendo a division of Sony in some other 'timeline'?
Quite then puzzler.
megashock5
Member
But would Nintendo have become a big brand in NA if the NES had been known as an Atari here? Would Atari been competent enough to stick around and be the brand of the SNES, N64 and so on?
But yeah, the Nintendo Play Station (two words) would have been very interesting.
Also, I miss Sega as a hardware player.
I think they went about Vita completely the wrong way. I would have told them to make an ultra thin system, dual analog like the Vita, bio-sensor on the back, and that could be sold for $170 at break even. What do you guys think of this plan? How thin can you make a PSP type device?
Finally read that whole article. The thing about Sony's engineers having too much sway seems to be an issue at the heart of the company itself. They need to reconcile the conflict between hardware and content. Sony has been known for making quality hardware in the past, but almost all of it succeeded because of content. That's where they need to work, especially concerning the Vita right now. The Vita is a great piece of hardware with a good service attached, but barely any enticing software of its own. It essentially needs another Monster Hunter-level hit on a worldwide scale.
Father_Brain
Banned
Dunno about thickness, but assuming that exiting the dedicated handheld sector wasn't an option, I do think that Sony should have made Vita as directly competitive with 3DS as possible - similar spec range, similar price range (15000Y/$150-$170) to where 3DS is currently, Q4 2010/Q1 2011 launch - and focused primarily on the Japanese market.
RE: Power argument.
I find the folks talking about "gaming business" don't really have a business background.
So, to put it lightly "power" is generally an advantage because people will choose your console and presumably its games over the competition. This allows you to raise revenues, but of course you'll raise costs. Thing is there's clearly a ceiling on what people are willing to pay for a games box, so there's a point of diminishing returns where power no longer makes sense.
The issue is for Sony on the PS3 and arguably the PSP and PS Vita is the power angle didn't stomp the competition. Despite the bleating of 2005/2006 blu-ray, internal wifi, hardware backwards compatibility, HDMI didn't lead to Sony blasting past anyone.
Even if Sony fought MS to a draw on marketshare the actual operating profit they bring in could be negative, and certainly would be less than their competitor. Also unlike Microsoft Sony has decided to not monetize on-line nearly as aggressively, meaning even if it sells fewer consoles each one is probably more valuable.
If I expect to sell more units by being more powerful (a questionable assumption), I also need to ensure my contribution margin is meaningful enough that such additional revenues translate into operating profit. Hence why selling a lot of units may help the chart warriors but it doesn't mean the business is healthy. If Sony sold 200mm PS3s back in 2006 they'd be bankrupt, of course they wouldn't bother making that many, but the point is illustrative. Marketshare is only valuable if profitable.
I find the folks talking about "gaming business" don't really have a business background.
So, to put it lightly "power" is generally an advantage because people will choose your console and presumably its games over the competition. This allows you to raise revenues, but of course you'll raise costs. Thing is there's clearly a ceiling on what people are willing to pay for a games box, so there's a point of diminishing returns where power no longer makes sense.
The issue is for Sony on the PS3 and arguably the PSP and PS Vita is the power angle didn't stomp the competition. Despite the bleating of 2005/2006 blu-ray, internal wifi, hardware backwards compatibility, HDMI didn't lead to Sony blasting past anyone.
Even if Sony fought MS to a draw on marketshare the actual operating profit they bring in could be negative, and certainly would be less than their competitor. Also unlike Microsoft Sony has decided to not monetize on-line nearly as aggressively, meaning even if it sells fewer consoles each one is probably more valuable.
If I expect to sell more units by being more powerful (a questionable assumption), I also need to ensure my contribution margin is meaningful enough that such additional revenues translate into operating profit. Hence why selling a lot of units may help the chart warriors but it doesn't mean the business is healthy. If Sony sold 200mm PS3s back in 2006 they'd be bankrupt, of course they wouldn't bother making that many, but the point is illustrative. Marketshare is only valuable if profitable.
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RedSwirl said:
Its a very big assumption, and one that isnt neccessarily supportable, to say that engineers are the problem at Sony. Remember this is the company Steve Jobs so admired - an engineering culture is not inherently bad.
There was a Wired article several years ago that outlined Sony's inner schisms far better than that article did, as it gave a far more nuanced depiction than the banal and simplistic ego-driven angle this piece is pushing.
http://gizmodo.com/5475940/sonys-engineer-brothers
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/technology/how-sony-fell-behind-in-the-tech-parade.html?_r=1
http://gizmodo.com/5860874/the-slow-painful-decline-of-sony-a-tale-told-in-three-microcosms
"And the third issue is that Sony's legions of engineers haven't fully accepted the reality that software and content now matter as much asif not more thanthe hardware itself."
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/04/11/050411ta_talk_surowiecki
http://kotaku.com/241418/sonys-problems-start-at-the-top
"In developing the PlayStation 3 console, the device's latest iteration, Mr. Kutaragi went over budget on development costs without informing Mr. Stringer"
A war inside Sony happened, All of these articles I posted above are linked in the article from www.Notenoughshaders.com
Seems Sony's biggest problem is that as a company, they are (were?) at each other's throat:
"In September, Mr. Kutaragi announced Sony was halving shipments of the new PlayStation to the U.S. and Japan and was pushing back its European launch. At a news conference, Mr. Kutaragi blamed Sony's electronics group for failing to produce enough of a critical component, exposing his tense relationship with the division."
Ehrenberg is highly critical of Stringer, and thinks Kutaragi should have been removed much sooner:
"I don't care how legendary or historically successful a manager might be - if they are unable or unwilling to adapt to the culture, the vision you, as leader, have clearly communicated, they have to go. But not two years later, after the corrosive effect of doing things "their way" has already sunk in. Having a senior manager blame other groups for his group's woes? Raising concerns of investors, suppliers and customers alike? Unacceptable everywhere and at any time in any culture."
The article could not simply outline everything that is and was wrong with the current Sony, it would have been easy to fill an article 10 times longer than the one we did. This is a highlight of the current situation at Sony and some of what got them there.
Coppertracks
Member
It's interesting to think about. We can assume the CD Snes add-on would have been a failure/minor success like most add-ons at that time. The lacklustre reception could have convinced Sony it was not a good time to jump into the console business. Which would mean it would be another generation of Nintendo vs Sega. A high tech cart based console vs a comparatively low tech CD based console.
Could another timeline have seen Final Fantasy VII released on the Saturn instead? Would the Saturn have become a huge seller and Sega is still releasing hardware to this current day? Would the N64 have seen much higher sales convincing Nintendo to keep carts for another generation? If only we had a 'What if' viewer!
megashock5
Member
Really, that's at the heart of what I meant. I miss them as a software player, but I think they were much stronger when they had their own hardware platform. Genesis and Dreamcast are two of my favorite systems of all time. Sega had such exciting games on those systems in particular.
I've said it before, but the history of this industry is crazy. The amount of 'what ifs', mis-steps and perfect timing that led to certain successes and failures is astounding. The only thing that I'm sure of going into the next gen is that I have no clue who will come out on top.
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z0m3le said:
And like I said, its pretty thin and simplistic stuff. As I pointed out earlier Betamax led to Betacam which made far more money for Sony than VHS did for JVC, the "obvious" winner from the standpoint of consumer uptake. I use this example because it simply shows how misleading a surface reading of events can be.
Look, I'm not expecting Woodward & Bernstein but when you paint a picture in such broad strokes don't expect everyone just to agree blindly with each assertion. Some parts are fact, but others are simply opinion drawn from those facts. Its the latter I'm questioning, especially when the looming elephant in the room (the state of the Japanese economy versus that of their competitors in S. Korea etc) is so studiously avoided.
Content versus construct has never been as simple as is implied by the article, especially given the pressures imposed by general media content providers to provide adequate DRM technology to protect their assets. It was this conflict specifically that delayed the launch of a digital walkman.
PS. Citing a Kotaku piece doesn't add credibility to your "research". It just says to me you'll use any old source if it buttresses your opinion
grimshawish
Banned
"For consumers to think to themselves 'I will work more hours to buy one'. We want people to feel that they want it, irrespective of anything else."
Ego? What Ego?
While you do make good points about the article it doesn't change the fact that Sony (for whatever specific reason/series of events) is in dire financial trouble.
And they are going to need to do something radical to right their ship sooner rather than later.
..., and to be clear I'm not one of these alarmists who think that Sony are on the verge of going under.
Christ, what were they thinking?
Does anyone know exactly how much Sony invested into the PS3??
EDIT:
Trust me when I say, you don't want this. Lol.
RukusProvider
Banned
Nothing like that will be ever made public. However, the losses would be much greater as the ps2 would not be there to cover some of the losses.
As a Sony fan I can't even disagree or argue that. And hardware does matter, but sony's engineers need to work together as one, including different regions.
Apple is a hardware company. One thing that helped turn them around was iTunes. I know people say it was the iPhone but Apple was on the rise after Steve Jobs came back and released the iMac. The iMac alone wasn't enough to help Apple climb to the top, iTunes and OS X was a huge huge huge part of that rise to the top.
I still say Sony should have bought WebOS and dumped android/windows mobile. WebOS would be ideal for Sony phones/tablets and even playstation os.
Or somethings, like their software should maybe be outsourced until sony learns what to do in that space.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
I don't Know much about their other divisions but their Mobil Division is set to boom in the coming months, their Xperia line of phones are looking very solid and they are all priced below the competition for the same (sometimes better) hardware.
Canis lupus
Member
Agree, Sony phones seem to be doing a lot better in Europe. Xperia T to cost 499 while the others are +599.
Very good, well researched article. It's refreshing to read an article like that about the games industry. Even better read are the GAF responses to it. 
Sony has been in trouble for a while now. The iPod swooped in and took a strangle hold on the portable music market. The same goes for the mobile phone and tablet market; Apple leads there as well. The HDTV market may have seemed like it would be a boon for Sony, but their prices kept them out of the mass market. Gaming division was strong until this gen because Microsoft positioned the X360 incredibly well, leaving the PS3 to play catch up the entire gen, and that's not even accounting for the Wii's success.
And then there's the PSV. Even after the 3DS bombed at $250, there was still a large swathe of GAFers who believed the PSV would succeed. :lol I said a few times in the lead up to the PSV's launch that the handheld would struggle mightily, but SonyGAF just ignored the mobile gaming trends of the past 5 years, and thought there was a large enough market to support a device like the PSV. Like someone else said, the PSV is a "GAF Device", and it's no wonder why it's struggling.
That said, Sony won't leave the gaming industry anytime soon. The PS3 isn't my most-played console this gen, but I've had some great times with it. I'm excited to see what Sony does next gen.
Why? How long have you been on GAF? There's nothing surprising about this thread.
Sony has been in trouble for a while now. The iPod swooped in and took a strangle hold on the portable music market. The same goes for the mobile phone and tablet market; Apple leads there as well. The HDTV market may have seemed like it would be a boon for Sony, but their prices kept them out of the mass market. Gaming division was strong until this gen because Microsoft positioned the X360 incredibly well, leaving the PS3 to play catch up the entire gen, and that's not even accounting for the Wii's success.
And then there's the PSV. Even after the 3DS bombed at $250, there was still a large swathe of GAFers who believed the PSV would succeed. :lol I said a few times in the lead up to the PSV's launch that the handheld would struggle mightily, but SonyGAF just ignored the mobile gaming trends of the past 5 years, and thought there was a large enough market to support a device like the PSV. Like someone else said, the PSV is a "GAF Device", and it's no wonder why it's struggling.
That said, Sony won't leave the gaming industry anytime soon. The PS3 isn't my most-played console this gen, but I've had some great times with it. I'm excited to see what Sony does next gen.
Why? How long have you been on GAF? There's nothing surprising about this thread.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Oh, I do. More precisely, I want standardized console specs for gaming. They can differentiate themselves in other ways and keep competing, just like TVs, DVD/Blu-ray players, camcorders and all other electronic devices do.
See this is another thing representative of Sony right now: They just released a new model of their eReader.
Why the fuck is this functionality not in the PlayStation Vita?! I also didn't know until now that Sony has their own entire eBook store with an app available for everything except the Vita. What reason do they have not to include that software and content on the PlayStation Store?
I'm honestly confident that if Sony were to poll all their media content resources together into a cohesive whole, the Vita could actually be a fairly competitive tablet in its own right.
Why the fuck is this functionality not in the PlayStation Vita?! I also didn't know until now that Sony has their own entire eBook store with an app available for everything except the Vita. What reason do they have not to include that software and content on the PlayStation Store?
I'm honestly confident that if Sony were to poll all their media content resources together into a cohesive whole, the Vita could actually be a fairly competitive tablet in its own right.
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RedSwirl said:
This is actually symptomatic of Sony's problems, and to reiterate my point its not a hardware issue its always software/digital rights issues.
Sony's engineers were well ahead of the game when it came to designing e-readers, but where they've had issues is getting content on the device.
The odd thing is that it seems to me that Sony's assets within the larger media industries (Columbia pictures, BMG music) have actually turned out to be more of an impediment than a help as its exposed them to more direct pressure over DRM from groups like RIAA.
Lets not forget the "rootkit" scandal, which was a BMG initiative that ended up severely hurting Sony's image as a whole.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Yeah, it's not the fault of the engineers, it's management's fault. It's always management's fault (specifically senior management) as they're the only ones who can actually bring about change.
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