anonymous_abc
Member
I think people are fed up with facts.
The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
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I think people are fed up with facts.
What prior work? Article 50 (or 46) differs greatly from anything other exit clause. It's like saying GRRM can't claim authorship to a song of ice and fire because Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings first.
Both Amato and Kerr pretty much say the same thing about the use of Article 50. . Outside the Praesarium and the secretariat it controlled knows who actually put the words down on a sheet of paper. The final words almost certainly were confirmed by committee.
As an amusing aside here's what Farage had to say about it when it was it proposed
One would think he was a blowhard idiot who knows nothing, but instinctually lashes out at anything EU related. I know one shouldn't judge a movement by it's leaders, but dearie me it's awfully tempting.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
make a referendum and let the people decide
Linkstrikesback
Member
Fucking hell no.
UcchedavÄda
Member
Stop being so undemocratic!
The people have spoken, war means war and we're going to make a success of it." Theresa May, 2018.
UcchedavÄda
Member
"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." -- Nigel Farage, 2018.
chromatic9
Member
Near me Lloyds and Natwest have just closed the branches on July 27th. These have been here for 35+ years. Nothing to do with Brexit but running costs and online banking. Also mobile is beating out desktop banking just recently announced so Brexit or not this was on the cards. I'm sure it's been sped up today with the vote but some companies have to change with the times, new opportunities will emerge, some will go bust. Claiming interest rates a reason is a bit dodgy, I've been hearing the rates are rising for 5 years but each time they don't and no one is expecting it pre brexit this or next. It's become a joke for savers.
We've seen nearly all the huge high street electrical shops close to online, all the music shops close except here in the likes of Manchester a music hub.
UK unemployment is under 5% after all that change and job losses and car manufacturing gone over the last five years despite being in the EU. France Spain etc are in double digits.
We've seen nearly all the huge high street electrical shops close to online, all the music shops close except here in the likes of Manchester a music hub.
UK unemployment is under 5% after all that change and job losses and car manufacturing gone over the last five years despite being in the EU. France Spain etc are in double digits.
UcchedavÄda
Member
Wow, that's pretty good.
Lovely stuff - just noticed yer man Andriukaitis in the bottom corner
Audioboxer
Member
Still almost feels like this is all one bad dream....
I was hoping someone would do this.
Halph n Halph
Member
What, Why?
Clay Davis
Member
Hi UK gaf, I have been lurking this thread for a while and thought it was time I shared something. I came across this article earlier and it doesn't surprise me that people are turning against the Polish minority so quickly.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...um-boston-least-integrated-town-a7150541.html
Being of brown skin (third generation Asian), this does worry me a lot and I have noticed an increased feeling of animosity from people on the streets. I live in London so it's not as severe, but there is a sense that people are on edge and even the smallest incident could trigger them.
Does anyone else feel the same?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...um-boston-least-integrated-town-a7150541.html
Being of brown skin (third generation Asian), this does worry me a lot and I have noticed an increased feeling of animosity from people on the streets. I live in London so it's not as severe, but there is a sense that people are on edge and even the smallest incident could trigger them.
Does anyone else feel the same?
definitely... I'll probably be leaving at the beginning of the year.
Just arranging everything to make the transfer as smooth as possible.
At the beginning of the month me and my bf took a uber to go back home from the train station. We were talking in the back seats in italian for the whole time while the guy was listening to some political commentary on the radio about brexit.
When we got close to our house the guy asked us, out of nowhere if we were polish.
We replied saying that we were italian and he said "oh, so you are tourists."
We lied and said yes. Don't want to test my odds at 23:00 in a dark street on someone else's car.
We have been living in London for over 3 years, always paid our taxes, always pay all our bills. We have a great bank account balance, never asked for money neither to the bank or the government. We never even used any public service, including NHS.
But now for some reason we are "part of the problem".
Honestly this is not my country and I'm not going to ruin my life to stay in a place where people are treating people like me like criminals for no reason whatsoever.
I'm also not going to test my luck and stay in a country that will probably will now go through a financial crisis.
Just as I came here and got a job here I can do the same in any other country in Europe.
I wish you guys the best, especially to those of you who tried to stop all of this from happening.
CyclopsRock
Member
It's shitty that you feel unwelcome, especially in London, but is there more to this than the cab ride? You don't actually know what he was going to say if you'd said that you were Polish, do you? I mean he might have said "Oh, I went to Poland for the Euros, loved it!" or "My next door neighbour's Polish and makes me tasty Kielbasa" or whatever. It's quite a leap from him asking if you're Polish to you thinking you're being told that you're "part of the problem"
the tone he used when he asked plus the way his tone changed when we told him we were not polish plus the level of xenophobia of what he was listening at the radio at the moment doesn't make me feel that confident about it.
Am I now being targeted like people who get shit thrown at their windows right now?
no
but why exactly should I stay and see how it goes?
why should I stay here hoping that the economy will stay up and the rampaging episodes of racism will go away?
I don't own property in UK, I'm not financially nor emotionally invested in the country at the moment, and I don't see why I should just stay here and hope for the best.
It's not my country and I cannot in any way make a difference: I will just be a passive recipient of whatever British people will decide to do in the next two years.
And even if I do end up becoming a citizen I might still receive the fantastic attention that people who lived here all their lives are now receiving:
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/28/tearf...-was-thrown-at-her-door-after-brexit-5971979/
You can read everywhere, including in the article recently linked today how people who have been living here for 30 years don't even feel at home anymore.
I didn't build a future in this country yet, but I'm definitely not going to do it knowing that I could end up like those people.
End even if London proves to be the beacon of hope you are assuming what exactly should I be doing? Live under siege inside the city?
http://mashable.com/2016/06/27/facebook-brexit-incidents-hate-crime-london-britain/#PmLz8yN_aOqN
In a city where to rent a meagre 45 sqm 1 bedroom apartment in zone 4 costs me 1500 per month?
Apartments that are old with plumbing issues and that have not been properly renovated for years?
It's just easier to find another job somewhere else. Thankfully I'm a full stack senior devops with over 10 years of experience: it won't be hard to find alternatives.
I'm not going to gamble my life and my happiness especially when the odds of everything going fine look to be really really slim.
Camp Freddie
Member
It's sad to hear stories like yours, and I've heard a few from foreign work colleagues. Those without deep ties (i.e. mortgage, kids) to Britain are leaving, or seriously considering it. And they are all high skilled people, usually with skills that aren't available in the British workforce (e.g. experience with the Scandinavian regulatory system and fluency in their languages?)
Those jobs and and people will be lost forever unless there's a massive backlash against this xenophobic insanity.
Clay Davis
Member
It is hard to describe. Some people aren't as overt with their feelings, but there's a noticeable change in their tone, their behaviour, the way they look and interact with you that gives off a very strong vibe of hatred and disgust. I am noticing it a lot recently and it has me on edge. I don't know if it was always there and I am more attuned to it or if people feel they can be be more open with those feelings, but if you're a minority/person of colour, you do immediately notice a change in how people interact with you now.
The Rain King
Member
This is hilarious.
So May was in Poland yesterday, giving it big licks about the British people don't want freedom of movement, but would like a custom deal with the EU.
The Polish Prime Ministers statement was pretty unequivocal
Note this was said by Szydło as she stood next to May, and after May had given her the British people have spoken spiel.
Now it's hardly surprising that the freedom of movement is important to the Poles, but that would seem to be one country firmly in the no deal for you on freedom of movement camp.
The eastern europeans don't really trade with the UK much, but do value the freedom of movement, the UK is going to have to offer something really bloody attractive to get around that (the Eastern Europeans are also largely protected from EU budgetary issues due to the way the Norwegian money is allocated)
The Polish Prime Ministers statement was pretty unequivocal
.
Note this was said by Szydło as she stood next to May, and after May had given her the British people have spoken spiel.
Now it's hardly surprising that the freedom of movement is important to the Poles, but that would seem to be one country firmly in the no deal for you on freedom of movement camp.
The eastern europeans don't really trade with the UK much, but do value the freedom of movement, the UK is going to have to offer something really bloody attractive to get around that (the Eastern Europeans are also largely protected from EU budgetary issues due to the way the Norwegian money is allocated)
Wait, wasnt a lot of the Brexit immigrant hatred against poles?
Hard to imagine why anyone thought that there was even a sliver of hope for Poland to help Britain out as a result of that.
British Army of the Vistula might just be attractive enough. The Poles already want more NATO troops in the country, and we're sending 1,000 military personnel there permanently from next year anyway.
It'd probably piss the Russians off though, so we'll get the WW3 that Cameron promised.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Not all of the Brexit voters apparently cared about free movement according to a poll posted on this thread earlier? So to claim that there's a mandate for 'no freedom of movement' is bullshit if I remembered that correctly.
Tell that to May, it's the one thing she's continually repeated in her European travels, of course she's been largely met with "yes dear, but..."
It makes me laugh how utterly uninformed people are on immigration in this country. We're a fucking island, we barely let anyone in as it is!
Then I remember that the only party who haven't given up and told people their concerns are valid and not at all racist is the Liberal Democrats and I cry.
Then I remember that the only party who haven't given up and told people their concerns are valid and not at all racist is the Liberal Democrats and I cry.
The two issues that sum up almost all Brexit voters are immigration and sovereignty*. Which is more significant is hard to say but they were both massive vote winners. If we end up with a Brexit that fails to curb freedom of movement, it will inevitably be looked on as a failure to implement the much talked up "will of the people". The pathetic reality is that the most likely possibilities are:
1) A very light Brexit which fails to placate Brexiters (keep freedom of trade and movement)
2) A hard Brexit which devastates the economy (curbs to freedom of movement and trade)
The main reason that I still feel (3) No Brexit may occur is because I don't think many people on either side of the argument actually want (1), and because (2) is absolutely insane. Of course, a lot of Brexiters seem to think (4) Fantasy Brexit (keep freedom of trade, curb freedom of movement) is feasible. The sooner they realise it isn't, the sooner the political discourse can return to sanity.
*What these voters mean by sovereignty seems to be extraordinarily variable and most often vacuous
Audioboxer
Member
Something something taking the country back... whilst ironically almost putting the foot full throttle on the gas to a potential UK breakup via Scotland bailing. I mean I know we're the ugly insignificant red headed brother, but those that love their UK pride tend to enjoy the flag and country as is.
I mean I'm sure most English are confident of never losing Scotland but it was clear before hand the SNP on a political front and even the people via polling were going to vote remain. The gamble of forever having us locked down could now genuinely backfire. So Brexiters could end up with regret at the vote post vote, and also regret that the UK then breaks up and Scotland gets to stay in the EU... lol.
If it plays out like that we better order plenty of ointment for said burns on brexiters hearts. Lose the country and lose financial security based on a whim, lies and misinformation.
The Brexit movement can be generally summed up as nationalistic, xenophobic, short sighted, close minded and arrogant. Most of them think Scotland won't leave and many of them simply don't care. I'm pretty sure I saw a poll that showed Leave voters were much more likely to regard themselves as "English" than "British" or "European".
I myself consider myself European first, British second, and English third... but then I voted to Remain.
Audioboxer
Member
I wouldn't have a problem with someone referring to themselves as English first, or just English. I mean, its true. I refer to myself as Scottish first and British second. I'll also be honest and say I never really refer to myself as European, but that is more so to do with it really just being a given in my mind and if someone were to ask me where I'm from I'm going to say the actual county. Nothing to do with me thinking I'm not European lol.
Now I also won't hide I've been pro Scottish independence for a while and voted Yes in 2014. Primarily because of a distaste for Tories and being ran by them when we weren't voting for them. Absolutely nothing to do with English people. Nor is it any unfounded nationalism BS. I guess you could say its similar unrest to those in England who thought they were sticking it to Westminster voting leave.... Except I wouldn't torpedo my vote just to say hah at a bunch of millionaires who quite honestly aren't going to suffer anything like I might from an EU exit.
In 2014 I also didn't believe the better together scaremongering about Scotland and the EU. I can only say are you now surprised brexiters? Welcome to how it feels to be lied to by Government. At least two years ago us being lied to just shattered our dreams of escaping the Tories and left us with business as usual. You guys being lied to has left us with anything but business as usual, and sadly so far is dragging us along. Hopefully not for too much longer. At this point I'll take any way of Scotland being able to stay in the EU. However the only option is looking to be we'll need independence. If we get that hopefully Trident can get tae fuck as well to go Scots for a second. Then that will be yet another thing England will be left to put somewhere and maintain alone.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
soooooooo, I guess that 'lack of impact' stuff on the first day of this clusterfuck is just not happening then?
Just checking in after being away from this for a while. I am Dutch, but it's still a fascinating dumbster fire. I am still confident we won't see an actual invoking of article 50 though. It's not legally binding, and clearly the results are already a disaster. No reason to make it into a full blaze.
I was quite concerned and upset when the vote result came in for economy reasons, but the more I think about it - I'm actually feeling cautiously positive about the future. I don't think I've felt that for at least a decade. The big problem with Europe is not that it can't be fixed or reformed, and it's not the people who live and work here, it's that there's no appetite to fix anything within the people who have the power to make it happen. It's turned from what was a highly beneficial trading block into a nightmarish social experiment lock-in. I feel kinship with people in Europe, but the EU "Project" doesn't speak to me at all, I find it sinister and self serving - a very basic example being the anger towards Cameron for *giving people a democratic vote on membership*. Dwell on that for a moment, anger that someone should actually give a population a say in its future. Consider the initial remarks from some EU officials suggesting they wanted to punish the country for leaving - because they want to use fear to deny other populations similar votes. Does that say democracy to you? It shouldn't because it's profoundly undemocratic and authoritarian.
So having accepted and come to terms with the fact that we will in some form or other 'leave', my prime concern today is that there's a complete lack of a viable opposition party here at the moment, and whether you support those in power or the opposition, one curtails the excesses of the other - it's why I think we need proportional representation urgently and am pro-coalition governments.
The whole storm has also demonstrated the fantastical bias in what's supposed to be our state funded neutral BBC. Anything that can be linked negatively to Brexit is, on the front page, even in the face of clarifying evidence, while (for example) the story about the independant IMF review finding they've been ... somewhat generous to the EU and Euro currency in all their forecasts - that's buried as a footnote story in a specific business section. Even good news will have comments such as 'despite uncertainty caused by Brexit' tagged on the story, as if we can't be allowed to think that some things aren't being negatively affected. Some manifestly are, but others are not. I'm wondering how long this tantrum will continue - not everything can be measured purely in shades of Brexit.
It's interesting seeing the massive divide between the "liberal elite" and everyone who isn't part of their club being exposed in such a graphic way by what was on reflection a fairly predictable outcome. Politics hasn't been so interesting for a very long time indeed. As for Brexit, there are far bigger problems elsewhere which are going to hit much sooner. Some leading economists have been expecting a crunch in Europe as a whole regardless of any referendums, and you've got America spinning off into very uncharted territory.
So having accepted and come to terms with the fact that we will in some form or other 'leave', my prime concern today is that there's a complete lack of a viable opposition party here at the moment, and whether you support those in power or the opposition, one curtails the excesses of the other - it's why I think we need proportional representation urgently and am pro-coalition governments.
The whole storm has also demonstrated the fantastical bias in what's supposed to be our state funded neutral BBC. Anything that can be linked negatively to Brexit is, on the front page, even in the face of clarifying evidence, while (for example) the story about the independant IMF review finding they've been ... somewhat generous to the EU and Euro currency in all their forecasts - that's buried as a footnote story in a specific business section. Even good news will have comments such as 'despite uncertainty caused by Brexit' tagged on the story, as if we can't be allowed to think that some things aren't being negatively affected. Some manifestly are, but others are not. I'm wondering how long this tantrum will continue - not everything can be measured purely in shades of Brexit.
It's interesting seeing the massive divide between the "liberal elite" and everyone who isn't part of their club being exposed in such a graphic way by what was on reflection a fairly predictable outcome. Politics hasn't been so interesting for a very long time indeed. As for Brexit, there are far bigger problems elsewhere which are going to hit much sooner. Some leading economists have been expecting a crunch in Europe as a whole regardless of any referendums, and you've got America spinning off into very uncharted territory.
Most English (the man in the street, excepting the Tory elites) don't care if Scotland leaves the Union. At least not the ones on the right of centre (which is most of UK outside of Scotland). Actually, if there was a referendum in England and Wales about kicking Scotland out of the Union, we might well be looking at a "Scexit" right now.
I was being facetious, but I honestly don't think that most "Brits" outside of the "elites" are too bothered about whether Scotland wants to be a part of the UK or not. I really don't think that ever factored in to voting decisions, and I don't think it would have ever been a major issue if someone had. Basically, no-one cares. It's just another example of the disconnect between politicians and the electorate.
thats not how i see it, thats far too simplistic.
it was a vote against the decades of neoliberal policies (destruction of industry and their communities in favour of services, privatisation, stagnant wages, deregulation of the financial sector, centralisation of capital in london, lack of investment in public services and infrastructure) that have wrecked working class communities/everywhere outside of london and the past 5 years of cruel austerity measure that have hit the most vunerable hardest.
unfortunately the media have helped put the blame on the migrants, a very useful, visible scapegoat that obscure the actual reasons people feel shafted: the failure of 40 years of neoliberalism and government policy.
large swathes of the country wanting things to get better were sold empty promises. xenophobia was pushed by the media and the government because its a much easier narrative to explain and 'solve'. nothings going to change (except maybe for the worse). a remain vote was for the status quo though and clearly people aren't happy with it cuz its shit. neither labour (except maybe a corbyn led labour) or the tories want actual change.
i see trump as a similar protest vote against the establishment and the status quo, a working class revolt. however ugly(racism and xenophobia) it might be.
but nothing of what you listed has anything to do with the EU. Uk is not in the EZ so austerity has nothing to do with it. Wages and destruction of industry had nothing to do with the EU
Audioboxer
Member
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Doesn't mean he's wrong though. The EU are emblematic of and closely tied tp the issues he brought up (mostly wrongly)
AHA-Lambda
Member
Exactly, most of what you blame there is largely the fault of the tories rather than the EU.
The tories are like Trump at this point, they could commit murder in front of people, blame it on someone else (probably immigrants) and they'd still win a general election hands down.
They caused the mess and now you've given unregulated control (gives a different spin on TAKE BACK CONTROL doesn't it?) over to them.
Same.
You don't want us? Fine, I don't want you either, just let us walk.
CyclopsRock
Member
Clearly the EU has *some* impact on wages, unless you don't think there a link between supply and demand.
jimbobsmells
Member
Giving people who have been pissed on for the last three decades and are generally powerless to change that, the power to suddenly change something, anything about their current situation, and they're likely to grasp it with both hands regardless of the costs.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Huge independence march in Glasgow, estimated at 6000 so far.
Doesn't make it not shortsighted or ill advised.
I make no apologies, I still believe anyone who voted Leave is a total twat. You can imagine the arguments I've been in with my family even now still.
Doesn't make it not shortsighted or ill advised.
I make no apologies, I still believe anyone who voted Leave is a total twat. You can imagine the arguments I've been in with my family even now still.
yeah, tell yourself that. The best thing out of brexit is, that now the leavers will see that the EU was just an easy scapegoat for tabloids and politicians.
Maybe your next export star is a Grubengrabegerät.
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