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[Bony Manifesto]

but nothing of what you listed has anything to do with the EU. Uk is not in the EZ so austerity has nothing to do with it. Wages and destruction of industry had nothing to do with the EU

I think the problem was that the pro-Remain Conservatives couldn't very well come out and say that almost all the problems the poor working class are facing are due to decisions they made, so they had to go with this disingenuous narrative of 'everything's great right now, if we want things to keep on being great, we need to stay in the EU'. Which obviously, if you're someone whose life isn't great and hasn't been for years, that's the absolute last thing you want to hear!

I don't want to bag on Corbyn's Labour too much, but as the opposition, it's their role to hold the government's feet to the flames and explain why the EU is not the problem - Conservative policies are. Instead we got vague, wishy-washy statements about how the EU is pretty shit, but on balance it's probably better we stay in for now; 7/10; would not bang.

So there was nobody aiming a pro-EU campaign towards the poor working class, while the anti-EU brigade had multiple well-oiled campaigns targeting them almost exclusively. With hindsight, the result was inevitable.

 

[mrklaw]

The two issues that sum up almost all Brexit voters are immigration and sovereignty*. Which is more significant is hard to say but they were both massive vote winners. If we end up with a Brexit that fails to curb freedom of movement, it will inevitably be looked on as a failure to implement the much talked up "will of the people". The pathetic reality is that the most likely possibilities are:

1) A very light Brexit which fails to placate Brexiters (keep freedom of trade and movement)
2) A hard Brexit which devastates the economy (curbs to freedom of movement and trade)

The main reason that I still feel (3) No Brexit may occur is because I don't think many people on either side of the argument actually want (1), and because (2) is absolutely insane. Of course, a lot of Brexiters seem to think (4) Fantasy Brexit (keep freedom of trade, curb freedom of movement) is feasible. The sooner they realise it isn't, the sooner the political discourse can return to sanity.

*What these voters mean by sovereignty seems to be extraordinarily variable and most often vacuous

The referendum didn't ask any questions about *why* people voted to leave. Just whether they wanted to. So any of this political posturing around freedom of movement or any other issue is based purely on general sentiment and polling, rather than any specific voting evidence. The government could ignore all of it and technically wouldn't be ignoring the result of the vote.

Of course they want to restrict movement of people themselves so that plays into their hands.

 

[Zaph]

Huge independence march in Glasgow, estimated at 6000 so far.

I wasn't paying much attention, but during BBC breakfast news today they were taking about an indyref2 poll which apparently showed no real change in voting intention post-Brexit? Still in favour of remaining in the UK by around 10%.

Found it surprising - and imagine it'll change if/when the Brexit negotiations begin in earnest and a50 invoked.

 

[Rodelero]

thats not how i see it, thats far too simplistic.

Well I did say generally.

it was a vote against the decades of neoliberal policies (destruction of industry and their communities in favour of services, privatisation, stagnant wages, deregulation of the financial sector, centralisation of capital in london, lack of investment in public services and infrastructure) that have wrecked working class communities/everywhere outside of london and the past 5 years of cruel austerity measure that have hit the most vunerable hardest.

unfortunately the media have helped put the blame on the migrants, a very useful, visible scapegoat that obscure the actual reasons people feel shafted: the failure of 40 years of neoliberalism and government policy.

large swathes of the country wanting things to get better were sold empty promises. xenophobia was pushed by the media and the government because its a much easier narrative to explain and 'solve'. nothings going to change (except maybe for the worse). a remain vote was for the status quo though and clearly people aren't happy with it cuz its shit. neither labour (except maybe a corbyn led labour) or the tories want actual change.

i see trump as a similar protest vote against the establishment and the status quo, a working class revolt. however ugly(racism and xenophobia) it might be.

If people decided to vote to Leave the EU because they were upset with the policies of the Labour and Conservative governments, fuelled by tabloids (and UKIP) drumming up xenophobic and straight up racist sentiments... doesn't that exactly prove my point?

What could be more short sighted than voting to Leave as a reaction to Tory policy, which in turn leads to a significant rightward shift in government and the potential breaking up of the United Kingdom which will forever shift politics in this country to the right?

 

[Zafir]

I think the problem was that the pro-Remain Conservatives couldn't very well come out and say that almost all the problems the poor working class are facing are due to decisions they made, so they had to go with this disingenuous narrative of 'everything's great right now, if we want things to keep on being great, we need to stay in the EU'. Which obviously, if you're someone whose life isn't great and hasn't been for years, that's the absolute last thing you want to hear!

I don't want to bag on Corbyn's Labour too much, but as the opposition, it's their role to hold the government's feet to the flames and explain why the EU is not the problem - Conservative policies are. Instead we got vague, wishy-washy statements about how the EU is pretty shit, but on balance it's probably better we stay in for now; 7/10; would not bang.

So there was nobody aiming a pro-EU campaign towards the poor working class, while the anti-EU brigade had multiple well-oiled campaigns targeting them almost exclusively. With hindsight, the result was inevitable.

Yeah. It was just a really flawed strategy for the referendum. They never really went to the trouble of trying to explain the positives to the EU in some of the more sceptical areas. Part of the blame does indeed go to Labour since quite a good amount were Labour constituencies.

I think it says it all, that constituencies that voted leave then came out asking for a replacement to the EU funding they'll lose. People just didn't fully understand what they were voting for.

They thought they were voting against this big EU boogeyman which has been sending all these immigrants to take our jobs, who has been placing all these restrictions which we don't want and forcing us to abide by them.

The best part was it was partly the conservatives fault since they're some of the people who were blaming the EU for all of the problems, trying to deflect that blame from themselves. Between them, and the press who again is absolutely terrible(the fact that Murdoch can push his agenda through such a large portion of it is insane to me) it's no wonder people thought about the EU that way.

 

[system11]

Huge independence march in Glasgow, estimated at 6000 so far.



Doesn't make it not shortsighted or ill advised.
I make no apologies, I still believe anyone who voted Leave is a total twat. You can imagine the arguments I've been in with my family even now still.

Do you realise that approach is one of the core drivers behind the strong leave vote? It's a very typical left response to disagreement.

Remain supporters shooting for 'anyone who doesn't agree with us must be a racist or an idiot' was like taking a shotgun to your own foot. I can't even think of a better way to strengthen the resolve of people having that aimed at them.

As for Scotland, I don't really care if they want independance. It's up to them, their country - worth bearing in mind that 38% of them actually wanted to leave the EU too, it's not like Scotland is completely united on the EU itself. They'll have a lot of work to do if they want to join up with the EU - including adopting the Euro currency and building up expected regulatory/governmental bodies required by prospective members.

 

[Rodelero]

Do you realise that approach is one of the core drivers behind the strong leave vote? It's a very typical left response to disagreement.

Remain supporters shooting for 'anyone who doesn't agree with us must be a racist or an idiot' was like taking a shotgun to your own foot. I can't even think of a better way to strengthen the resolve of people having that aimed at them.

As for Scotland, I don't really care if they want independance. It's up to them, their country - worth bearing in mind that 38% of them actually wanted to leave the EU too, it's not like Scotland is completely united on the EU itself. They'll have a lot of work to do if they want to join up with the EU - including adopting the Euro currency and building up expected regulatory/governmental bodies required by prospective members.

Only with Brexit discussions can a 4% margin be enough to Leave the EU and break up the United Kingdom but a 24% margin not be decisive enough to be considered united over an issue.

 

[Jackpot]

Do you realise that approach is one of the core drivers behind the strong leave vote? It's a very typical left response to disagreement.

Voting to leave the EU because some lefties hurt your feelings is the epitome of stupidity and short-sightedness.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

52% is not the 'people's will' however you swing it. If you live with 5 people in a house and 3 people decide to completely burn down the house just because they're dissatisfied with aspects of the construction and they want to change things, because of democracy, the other 2 people have every right to call them stupid.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

52% is not the 'people's will' however you swing it. If you live with 5 people and 3 people decide to burn down the house, because of democracy, the other 2 people have every right to call them stupid.

I will forever keep this clip on repeat to any twat that tells me that my side lost and to get over it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyyOyoeqKfM

i don't give af if it was a democratic decision, it was wrong. Just like Trump becoming president would be democratic but utterly fucking wrong.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

I will forever keep this clip on repeat to any twat that tells me that my side lost and to get over it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyyOyoeqKfM

i don't give af if it was a democratic decision, it was wrong. Just like Trump becoming president would be democratic but utterly fucking wrong.

Hardcore Brexiteers are a bit like Erdogan supporters- stubborn, fanatical and unable to see sense. They do whatever their dear leader Nigel Farage tells them to do. They believe everything he says too, everyone else be damned.

 

[system11]

Only with Brexit discussions can a 4% margin be enough to Leave the EU and break up the United Kingdom but a 24% margin not be decisive enough to be considered united over an issue.

Read whatever you like into it. Point stands - it's not like England was 80% leave and Scotland was 80% stay, so it's somewhat disingenious of Sturgeon to paint Scotland as standing as a fully united victim on the issue to push her own long standing separationist/nationalistic agenda, which is what she's been attempting to do.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Read whatever you like into it. Point stands - it's not like England was 80% leave and Scotland was 80% stay, so it's somewhat disingenious of Sturgeon to paint Scotland as standing as a fully united victim on the issue to push her own long standing separationist/nationalistic agenda, which is what she's been attempting to do.

HOW is it disingenuous?? it's nearly a full 25% extra!

She has to stand for the will of the people of scotland, which was to stay, and that's far clearer than the pathetic 4% margin of the country.

Every single constituency voted to stay, and I think it was only Gibraltar that had a higher percentage share for remain. Scotland is a victim.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

I am not optimistic about Brexit. What I see is that the political situation will shift more and more right as time goes on. And if UKIP gets their way, there's no escape for most liberal minded people. There's no longer the possibility of working in Europe to leave the country. Likely UK citizens have to apply for EU Blue Cards now. And if you look at the US Green Card scheme it won't be easy to get a Blue Card either.

 

[SteveWD40]

A50 is never going to happen now it's been kicked into the tall grass.

May would never ruin her career by further destroying the economy, that's all she would be remembered for, she is far too egotistical for that.

Lip service, "when it makes economic sense", "when we all agree" (Scotland never will).

Wait until the right moment and then quietly shift the message towards more reforms from within, with a GE called and a message of "we will use the results of the referendum when legislating".

I do agree with the post above however about the EU leaders being spiteful little shits, wanting to "punish the UK" to keep other nations in-line? fucking twats.

 

[Rodelero]

Read whatever you like into it. Point stands - it's not like England was 80% leave and Scotland was 80% stay, so it's somewhat disingenious of Sturgeon to paint Scotland as standing as a fully united victim on the issue to push her own long standing separationist/nationalistic agenda, which is what she's been attempting to do.

It's far less disingenuous than the stance of those in England talking up the will of the people when the will of the people is almost exactly split down the middle. It is completely ridiculous to think it reasonable that we must leave the EU on the basis of a tiny difference but that it's somehow unacceptable for Nicola Sturgeon to push for a further referendum on independence when there has been a MASSIVE change in circumstances due to the vote to leave which the vast majority of Scots rejected. Even more so when you consider that "You can stay part of the EU" was used as an argument for why Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom.

I don't want Scotland to leave the United Kingdom, but I can absolutely see why a Scot would prefer to be part of the EU than part of the UK. Of course Scotland isn't "fully united", but they're infinitely more united than the English are or the United Kingdom is in general. EVERY region of Scotland voted to Remain. The argument she is making is pretty much the most valid argument being made by anyone right now. Brexit means Brexit is, relatively, total bollocks.

 

[system11]

Voting to leave the EU because some lefties hurt your feelings is the epitome of stupidity and short-sightedness.

The point was that when people drive their argument through insults and belittling, other people are very unlikely to be receptive to the message.

 

[2MF]

The point was that when people drive their argument through insults and belittling, other people are very unlikely to be receptive to the message.

I would go farther and say it further marginalizes them and makes them more likely to have a hard stand.

Similar to how it doesn't work in Sweden to call everyone who votes SD racists. Or calling all Trump voters racist horrible people despite any other motivations they may have. It hasn't worked and will continue not to work.

 

[system11]

It's far less disingenuous than the stance of those in England talking up the will of the people when the will of the people is almost exactly split down the middle. It is completely ridiculous to think it reasonable that we must leave the EU on the basis of a tiny difference but that it's somehow unacceptable for Nicola Sturgeon to push for a further referendum on independence when there has been a MASSIVE change in circumstances due to the vote to leave which the vast majority of Scots rejected. Even more so when you consider that "You can stay part of the EU" was used as an argument for why Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom.

You must have missed the part where I said I don't mind and it's up to Scotland to decide. If they want another referendum, go for it. I backed that second EU referendum for the UK petition myself because 4% isn't a large number for a significant change.

I do think Nicola Sturgeon is farly hypocritical in her politics though, she's made her name campaigning for what Remain people would class as an isolationist and nationalistic ideal of Scotland leaving the UK and standing on its own two feet. Now shes complaining about something which is conceptually little different.

The whole mess (and it is certainly that) is probably easiest to digest for people like me who are 50/50 on the whole thing and wanted to stay EU purely on a 'better the devil you know' basis rather than actually being in favour of the EU political agenda.

 

[Rodelero]

The point was that when people drive their argument through insults and belittling, other people are very unlikely to be receptive to the message.

This is undoubtedly true, and yet I don't think it's fair to imply this is the way Remainers acted throughout the campaign. It is largely reactive to the belligerence of Leave voters and the continual, obvious signs that, for many, it is best a protest vote and at worse a vote for arguments like these:

On the whole the Brexiters I talked to, admittedly not very many, were either blatantly xenophobic, if in a relatively harmless way, or totally unconcerned about the economic effects of the vote (or totally deluded, believing the rhetoric that it was 'Project Fear'). Obviously it would be great if every Remainer had the patience of a saint, but we're just as human as the Leavers. Trying to persuade people on this issue is typically like talking to a brick wall (and I'm sure Leavers feel that about Remainers too).

 

[tuxfool]

I would go farther and say it further marginalizes them and makes them more likely to have a hard stand.

Similar to how it doesn't work in Sweden to call everyone who votes SD racists. Or calling all Trump voters racist horrible people despite any other motivations they may have. It hasn't worked and will continue not to work.

Logic and rational argument doesn't seem to work either.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Theonik]

Voting to leave the EU because some lefties hurt your feelings is the epitome of stupidity and short-sightedness.

I heard this argument from people in my circle way too much.

Only with Brexit discussions can a 4% margin be enough to Leave the EU and break up the United Kingdom but a 24% margin not be decisive enough to be considered united over an issue.

That's another thing I've noticed when talking about potential Scottish independence. THE POOR 36% OF SCOTS WHO WANTED TO LEAVE. My favourite one was with the previous sentence being Brexit means brexit Keep Calm and Carry On.

 

[system11]

I would go farther and say it further marginalizes them and makes them more likely to have a hard stand.

Similar to how it doesn't work in Sweden to call everyone who votes SD racists. Or calling all Trump voters racist horrible people despite any other motivations they may have. It hasn't worked and will continue not to work.

Agreed - it's why Trump will probably win. If you have a huge and unhappy group of voters on your side, you can get away with gutter politics and just attacking your opposition which is exactly what he's doing. If you're trying to get some of those unhappy people to see a different point of view, you need to explain why you think your way is better and how it will address their problems.

Remain chose a lot of option 1 and it didn't work, it could never have worked. On top of that though, Corbyn let the side down spectacularly:

"Asked if there could be an upper limit for immigration, Mr Corbyn said: "I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement of labour.

"I think the free movement of labour means you have to balance the economy so you have to improve living standards and conditions and so that means the European Union's appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central Bank as well as the European Union, that is a problem."

We can give him a free pass on the 'yeah not really much we can do about immigration other than spend money on it' part because there was no honest way to answer the question with any other response. The part about Greece is true too of course, and one of the prime reasons I was feeling divided on the subject myself, but if you're trying to convince people to vote Remain, why on earth would you voluntarily bring that up in the same sentence? That's telling people the EU project is evil and broken and shows he was probably the wrong person to be tasked with trying to convince their supporters why staying in Europe was a good idea.

 

[Audioboxer]

Read whatever you like into it. Point stands - it's not like England was 80% leave and Scotland was 80% stay, so it's somewhat disingenious of Sturgeon to paint Scotland as standing as a fully united victim on the issue to push her own long standing separationist/nationalistic agenda, which is what she's been attempting to do.

lol.

So tell me how you feel about Better Together telling Scottish people a vote to remain was also a vote to stay in the EU.

 

[system11]

On the whole the Brexiters I talked to, admittedly not very many, were either blatantly xenophobic, if in a relatively harmless way, or totally unconcerned about the economic effects of the vote (or totally deluded, believing the rhetoric that it was 'Project Fear'). Obviously it would be great if every Remainer had the patience of a saint, but we're just as human as the Leavers. Trying to persuade people on this issue is typically like talking to a brick wall (and I'm sure Leavers feel that about Remainers too).

Where I live is somewhat interesting - Cambridge is a rich and world famous student city and you'd expect Remain to win in local terms by a landslide - which is exactly what happened. However if you looked at surrounding areas the story was very different. This is where all the people who can't afford to live here anymore have to move, and every time I see a new building go up, it's more luxury apartments. Many of the jobs in the city itself are academic which is a traditionally low wage area, and this in turn drags down non-academic wages a certain amount too. The end result is you can see within a small geographical area of less than 100 miles, a small version of the country as a whole. The rich and idealistic vs everyone affected or left behind by their success. Just replace the bogeyman of 'immigrants' with the bogeyman of 'rich Londoners and foreign students' and you have the exact same thing, with surrounding Leave percentages of 60 or even 70%.

 

[Rodelero]

Where I live is somewhat interesting - Cambridge is a rich and world famous student city and you'd expect Remain to win in local terms by a landslide - which is exactly what happened. However if you looked at surrounding areas the story was very different. This is where all the people who can't afford to live here anymore have to move, and every time I see a new building go up, it's more luxury apartments. Many of the jobs in the city itself are academic which is a traditionally low wage area, and this in turn drags down non-academic wages a certain amount too. The end result is you can see within a small geographical area of less than 100 miles, a small version of the country as a whole. The rich and idealistic vs everyone affected or left behind by their success. Just replace the bogeyman of 'immigrants' with the bogeyman of 'rich Londoners and foreign students' and you have the exact same thing, with surrounding Leave percentages of 60 or even 70%.

But again... what does this have to do with the EU? I entirely understand that 'protest vote' is the main thing behind all this, but your argument that loads of people were upset that they were being left behind by the London bubble (plus the few other bubbles around the country, particularly near London), and therefore voted to leave the EU isn't particularly persuasive if you're trying to tell me that Leave voters are sensible people.

What kind of country feels generally resentful of these wealthy bubbles, votes in the Conservatives one year, and leaves the European Union the next? It's absolutely moronic.

 

[inoperativ]

Read whatever you like into it. Point stands - it's not like England was 80% leave and Scotland was 80% stay, so it's somewhat disingenious of Sturgeon to paint Scotland as standing as a fully united victim on the issue to push her own long standing separationist/nationalistic agenda, which is what she's been attempting to do.

I would suggest you put some time into modelling voting outcomes in the real world if you don't think 62-38 is a very strong result in a popular referendum.

 

[system11]

But again... what does this have to do with the EU? I entirely understand that 'protest vote' is the main thing behind all this, but your argument that loads of people were upset that they were being left behind by the London bubble (plus the few other bubbles around the country, particularly near London), and therefore voted to leave the EU isn't particularly persuasive if you're trying to tell me that Leave voters are sensible people.

What kind of country feels generally resentful of these wealthy bubbles, votes in the Conservatives one year, and leaves the European Union the next? It's absolutely moronic.

You just have to look at the housing and jobs situation here really - there's high immigration which is what you'd expect in a university city, leading to increased competition for both skilled and unskilled jobs, and an acceleration of the rental market problem. I'd say at least a third of the people where I work are from the EU.

This is only a year ago - the areas mentioned are the traditionally low cost parts of the city but that is rapidly changing.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/imm...ge-says-tory/story-26426407-detail/story.html

 

[Orniletter]

Wait until the right moment and then quietly shift the message towards more reforms from within, with a GE called and a message of "we will use the results of the referendum when legislating".

I do agree with the post above however about the EU leaders being spiteful little shits, wanting to "punish the UK" to keep other nations in-line? fucking twats.

"Spiteful little shits" Haha.

They are protecting the interests of our union that the UK has been...dare I say it...somewhat exploiting (the unfair Brit rebate that saved your country over 100 Billion € in contribution fees since the 80s ...at the expense of the other paying nations), all those concessions, opt outs etc.

If "punishing the UK" means not giving them one heck of a deal it doesn't deserve in the first place and treating them like any other country, then punish away Hollande and Merkel !

 

[SteveWD40]

"Spiteful little shits" Haha.

They are protecting the interests of our union that the UK has been...dare I say it...somewhat exploiting (the unfair Brit rebate that saved your country over 100 Billion € in contribution fees since the 80s ...at the expense of the other paying nations), all those concessions, opt outs etc.

If "punishing the UK" means not giving them one heck of a deal it doesn't deserve in the first place and treating them like any other country, then punish away Hollande and Merkel !

It's not trade deals I am referring to, more the "gtfo then" rhetoric. Merkel isn't taking part either, it's mostly the French, who are not protecting a union but rather gunning for the banking industry.

 

[tuxfool]

It's not trade deals I am referring to, more the "gtfo then" rhetoric. Merkel isn't taking part either, it's mostly the French, who are not protecting a union but rather gunning for the banking industry.

Frankfurt is salivating at the prospect of having the industry move over there.

 

[Rodelero]

You just have to look at the housing and jobs situation here really - there's high immigration which is what you'd expect in a university city, leading to increased competition for both skilled and unskilled jobs, and an acceleration of the rental market problem. I'd say at least a third of the people where I work are from the EU.

This is only a year ago - the areas mentioned are the traditionally low cost parts of the city but that is rapidly changing.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/imm...ge-says-tory/story-26426407-detail/story.html

I live and work in Oxford, which is probably about as similar a city as you'll find in this country. I currently rent, and my eyes water at what it will cost me (and how long it will take me) to buy somewhere of my own having started working last year. There is a great deal of immigration here too, from all over the world and at every skill level.

I simply don't believe that lowering immigration will actually solve the problem. I think our country is better off for having immigrants here, and for having the children of immigrants here. I hear foreign accents and see foreign people and am proud that they have come here, be it to visit, study, to work, or to live. I think they make this country a more interesting place to live, and I think they make this country stronger. In some ways, immigration is putting the country under strain but in many other ways it is also taking up the strain caused by our aging population, our continued failure to train enough homegrown doctors, etc, etc.

Our country has allowed mass immigration to occur but failed to react to it by building enough homes (as one example). The thing is, we need the immigrants and we need the homes. The Brexit solution, of getting rid of the immigrants and continuing to build far too few homes is not a solution at all.

 

[Audioboxer]

Exhibit A

What seems to be a Scottish brexiter

https://twitter.com/James47238383/

Warning, football mixed with religion mixed with violent outbursts and disgusting remarks.

Now upset at the idea of Scottish independence due to it being racist towards the English.

So yeah, for anyone who babbles on about a 22% lead not being a majority remember every country has shit like this person to deal with. Disgusting people who have the power to vote.

 

[SteveWD40]

Frankfurt is salivating at the prospect of having the industry move over there.

Aye, but Merkel seems to be more set on Mays plan to keep us in.

 

[mrklaw]

Our country has allowed mass immigration to occur but failed to react to it by building enough homes (as one example). The thing is, we need the immigrants and we need the homes. The Brexit solution, of getting rid of the immigrants and continuing to build far too few homes is not a solution at all.

The tories allowing council tenants to buy their own homes, and then not build replacements has fucked up our housing situation for the last 30 years. I don't know how much immigration has to do with it.

 

[Rodelero]

The tories allowing council tenants to buy their own homes, and then not build replacements has fucked up our housing situation for the last 30 years. I don't know how much immigration has to do with it.

It has a reasonable amount to do with it, but it's not the primary cause. Last year we had net migration of 330k, which is quite a bit higher than the net birthrate. It's a lot of people and they do have to be housed, so it does have an effect. If we had no immigration we would probably be building just about enough homes. That's hardly relevant though, imo.

 

[Evil Supremacy]

It has a reasonable amount to do with it, but it's not the primary cause. Last year we had net migration of 330k, which is quite a bit higher than the net birthrate. It's a lot of people and they do have to be housed, so it does have an effect.

Yes, it does have an effect, but it is not something that cannot be accommodated, the tories long term goal has been to do away with social housing altogether, further evidenced by the latest Housing and planning act, with them at the helm what you see now will not change, they do not want social housing, they also do not want the demand to be met.

Private companies build for profit, without immigration they would just slow down, not suddenly start building to meet what we actually need or even more, natural growth and immigration are a driving force, it creates demand, it creates jobs and it creates growth in areas, we have the capacity and capability to build to meet the needs of this and future generations, but it will not happen, not when for a prime example, you have land in this country, which already has planning permission, which is then held onto by the owner, waiting for the demand for it to push the price ever higher for maximum profit.

 

[CTLance]

Aye, but Merkel seems to be more set on Mays plan to keep us in.

Nah, that's just Merkel being Merkel. She's making her usual noncommittal noises while her staff are busy preparing scape goats and sacrifices for every contingency. Her commitment will come at the latest possible moment so she can claim or divert the fallout accordingly.

We Germans are absolutely filleting London's financial sector in our minds (and back rooms). Don't you ever think we don't.

 

[Theonik]

Nah, that's just Merkel being Merkel. She's making her usual noncommittal noises while her staff are busy preparing scape goats and sacrifices for every contingency. Her commitment will come at the latest possible moment so she can claim or divert the fallout accordingly.

We Germans are absolutely filleting London's financial sector in our minds (and back rooms). Don't you ever think we don't.

Why wouldn't you. The UK was kind enough to offer their country to the slaughterhouse lol

 

[Koren]

It's not trade deals I am referring to, more the "gtfo then" rhetoric. Merkel isn't taking part either, it's mostly the French, who are not protecting a union but rather gunning for the banking industry.

I'd be curious to know which french people, but I doubt that's the reason. In fact, I actually doubt there's chances to get more than crubs if the banking industry in France.

On the other hand, should UK manage to go away on nice terms, there's a strong chance we have a push at frexit. There's people as much keen on lying in France about a pink paradise outside EU, at our conditions, as there have been in UK.

 

[tuxfool]

Aye, but Merkel seems to be more set on Mays plan to keep us in.

As others have noted, you should be happy some people are talking plainly (who?). Just because somebody is acting diplomatic or conciliatory it doesn't mean that they're working on their own goals. Not to mention that it doesn't just depend on Germany, it requires the consensus of all parties, each with their own agendas.

 

[KingSnake]

Merkel loves to play the good cop role.

 

[Theonik]

Merkel loves to play the good cop role.

They pretty much pulled a good cop bad cop routine with Schauble in the Greek crisis.

 

[Xando]

Merkel loves to play the good cop role.

Pretty much. As soon as she has the opportunity she will (rightly so) turn on May and get best deal possible for germany.

 

[KingSnake]

They pretty much pulled a good cop bad cop routine with Schauble in the Greek crisis.

Exactly the first thing that came in my mind when I wrote that.

 

[accel]

Regarding Scotland:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-scottish-independence-since-brexit-vote-poll

The opinion that after Brexit Scots would surely vote to leave the UK for the EU, given a slightest chance, seems to have been a bit premature.

 

[norinrad]

Regarding Scotland:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-scottish-independence-since-brexit-vote-poll

The opinion that after Brexit Scots would surely vote to leave the UK for the EU, given a slightest chance, seems to have been a bit premature.

In the long run, they are stronger together .

 

[accel]

In the long run, they are stronger together .

(Yes, of course, I agree.)

 

[Phantast2k]

Regarding Scotland:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-scottish-independence-since-brexit-vote-poll

The opinion that after Brexit Scots would surely vote to leave the UK for the EU, given a slightest chance, seems to have been a bit premature.

There is no "after Brexit" yet and there won't be for a long time. At this rate it may never happen.
So at this point such a poll is meaninglessness.

 

[PJV3]

Regarding Scotland:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-scottish-independence-since-brexit-vote-poll

The opinion that after Brexit Scots would surely vote to leave the UK for the EU, given a slightest chance, seems to have been a bit premature.

May has done a good job of turning the temperature down, if she's bullshitting and gets a terrible deal then it will change.

The country really is in a strange limbo, even the City seems to think she will pull off a miracle.