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[avaya]

In the telegraph though, message will not get through to the right people.

Joining this conversation late but in despair as I watch my and my wife's future crash around us.

C'est la vie, at least we've got democracy right?! I guess this schadenfreude for what happened to the miners.......

It's not happening fam. City got your back.

 

[kmag]

Even Cameron just said that it would be difficult to have proper negotiations until they know more of their situation regarding the single market.


I honestly doubt it.

It's theoretically possible if the UK was federal I suppose. But even then practically it would be as problematic as Scottish independence would be in terms of an open border between the EU (Scotland) and the rUK.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Am i correct in saying that most EU country's who are not UK should be happy about Brexit?

I mean if the UK does not get acces to free marker or no passporting this could mean a lot of bussineses will move to other european country's?

Brexit has weakened the economic clout of the Eurozone, destabilized the markets and crashed one of Italy's banks. As well as emboldening the right to hate crime against people of non-white background in the UK. It's a step back for European society. There's a reason why Putin, Le Pen et al are celebrating it, while the leaders of the European countries are denouncing it.

What we can hope is that the UK fails, formerly UK business thrives on the continental mainland and Ireland, and the whole farce serves as a reminder of why we need the EU and what's great about it.

 

[ogbg]

Expected.

With this now confirmed and crystal clear, and the stripping of the entire London Financial hub on the card please GOD set the stage for a second ref

Most who voted leave are probably very happy to see the London financial hub stripped

 

[accel]

Are the public going to realise that there's no point going through with this if it won't affect immigration? Do they have the brains to understand what leaving the single market will do?

Sadly, I know the answer. They'll believe whatever farage and the press tell them.

It's not just immigration, it's also the super-government in general and the economy.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

AFP: #BREAKING EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

But tak3n said UK would get special treatment...

 

[nature boy]

Good article on the effect of bankers leaving

Potentially billions lost in tax revenue. Obviously this only considers tax effect, in reality loads of other industries are dependent on having high spenders around e.g restaurants, bars, and the arts (art galleries, theatre, opera, ballet etc).

From the article:

Xavier Rolet, the chief executive of the London Stock Exchange, has estimated that Brexit could cost the City 100,000 jobs. TheCityUK, a trade group, agrees. If that is even remotely accurate, pretty soon you're talking real money.

 

[danowat]

But tak3n said UK would get special treatment...

Because we are sooooo powerful.

 

[Scaramanger]

It's not happening fam. City got your back.

I hope you're right!

 

[Joni]

It's theoretically possible if the UK was federal I suppose. But even then practically it would be as problematic as Scottish independence would be in terms of an open border between the EU (Scotland) and the rUK.

There is already one, between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

 

[oti]

This seems... huge?

Read this again, he'll "hear" her. Don't get me wrong, it's a huge deal. But those aren't negotiations. It's a clear signal that the EU is friendly towards Scotland. Not more, for now.

 

[travisbickle]

Good article on the effect of bankers leaving

Potentially billions lost in tax revenue. Obviously this only considers tax effect, in reality loads of other industries are dependent on having high spenders around e.g restaurants, bars, and the arts (art galleries, theatre, opera, ballet etc).

The arts will be fine, rich people have bad taste. Have you ever heard Cameron trying to talk about culture?

 

[Vinland]

You can't be wise enough to do a comparison like that, while also being dumb enough to think the UK exists in a vacuum where all that's changed is EU membership in the last 50 years.

Wisdom rarely has anything to do with voting in a democracy. Also, your vague passive aggressive remark is childish.

 

[*Splinter]

Read this again, he'll "hear" her. Don't get me wrong, it's a huge deal. But those aren't negotiations. It's a clear signal that the EU is friendly towards Scotland. Not more, for now.

I'm surprised they are already going that far publicly though.

 

[oti]

I'm surprised they are already going that far publicly though.

Juncker said on the day the result of the referendum was announced that he could see Scotland and NI become EU members.

 

[HazySaiyan]

AFP: #BREAKING EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

And water is wet, yet some Leavers still hold onto this ridiculous notion.

 

[King_Moc]

It's not just immigration, it's also the super-government in general and the economy.

I disagree very strongly. The economy argument in particular. I mean, you'd need to be an idiot to vote out to improve the economy.

 

[DavidDesu]

Well, then that's not negotiating, that's just words of support (not that there's anything wrong with that). Scotland has to have a referendum to get out of UK, and they have to get Westminster's permission for that for one thing.

I don't think so, not anymore. The SNP have a huge mandate. They have 56/59 MP's in Westminster, they also got elected in to the Scottish Parliament, again, and now we have Scotland showing in the EU referendum that the entire nation strongly wanted Scotland to stay within the EU.

The Tory party that called the referendum has no mandate in Scotland, yet the referendum affects us anyway. Scotland voted to remain but gets taken out anyway against it's will, which represents a "significant and material change" to Scotland's place in the union.

Sorry to disappoint but the SNP have the clearest mandate they could have to begin eschewing the hostage status we have in the UK and go out to forge our own path and actually make decisions that the people of Scotland agree with.

Everything has changed. The UK is at absolute breaking point. The EU referendum changed it all, and the results from Scotland give it every right to want to look after it's own interests now, whether the rules say they can or not.


EDIT: I meant to say that "Significant and material change" was in the SNP manifesto as the trigger point for another independence referendum.

 

[cormack12]

Why do people keep saying this? I hate it too, but 52% is undeniably a majority.

It's semantics. The point is that 52% of a subset electorate is not 'most of the UK'. 16 million did not vote for him, another 10 million did not vote at all. Therefore most of the country is not 'behind him' nor voted for him.

 

[firehawk12]

People have mentioned the precedent of Denmark and Greenland but not sure how that happened or the details of how it's similar or different from this.

Yes, see Denmark which is in EU but has parts that aren't. It's very compex though so if anything like that was to happen, it's probably not the right time.

Huh yeah. Greenland is part of Denmark, but is also self-governing... so it'd still take some kind of change in relationship to probably allow that to happen with Scotland.

 

[nature boy]

Nick EardleyVerified account ‏@nickeardleybbc 4m4 minutes ago
Spanish PM Rajoy says if the UK leaves the EU, so does Scotland

And gets back in?

 

[jufonuk]

That sounds terrifying, especially the "French offer ". The idiot plebs will be delighted to hit the bankers if we can kick out the foreigners, not realising that they have irreversibly scuttled our economy. Say hello to endless austerity.

In this model we will be free to trade outside and inside

The banks will turn into tax havens working with and for Germany and France.

All British and EU nationals before the deal have free movement on Europe
Wait to sweeten deal , EU still the projects here they fund just take the banks limit passporting

 

[Crumpo]

Trying to keep up with the thread...has this been posted yet?

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/looking-behind-the-brexit-anger/

 

[kmag]

There is already one, between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

They don't care because unmonitored crossings to the mainland are limited to ferries. Scotland would be a different kettle of fish.

 

[accel]

I disagree very strongly. The economy argument in particular. I mean, you'd need to be an idiot to vote out to improve the economy.

I didn't mean to argue for leave, only that there are more issues that people perhaps voted on than just immigration.

(To be absolutely clear, I *am* in favor of leave, and the economy is part of that, but I agree that it is going to be worse economically before it gets better, and in general it is a complex and involved topic. Although it gets moot, because it gets mixed with what I called the super-government all the time.)

 

[HazySaiyan]

Because we are sooooo powerful.

The German car manufacturers are going to step in any day now and sort this whole mess out.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Because we are sooooo powerful.

I mean you have "Great" right there in the name That has to mean something. It's not "Great Germany" or "Great France"

Spoiler

I know Great Britain is just the island

The German car manufacturers are going to step in any day now and sort this whole mess out.

Hehehe

 

[liquidtmd]

The German car manufacturers are going to step in any day now and sort this whole mess out.

 

[Zaph]

Wisdom rarely has anything to do with voting in a democracy. Also, your vague passive aggressive remark is childish.

Nothing passive aggressive about it - it's the aggressive truth. Anyone who thinks that's the case is either wilfully ignorant or a fool.

Read this again, he'll "hear" her. Don't get me wrong, it's a huge deal. But those aren't negotiations. It's a clear signal that the EU is friendly towards Scotland. Not more, for now.

It's more pressure, which is good. The public need to steadily be introduced to the fact that everyone (especially the French and Scots) will eventually end up in a better position post-Brexit and only we will lose.

 

[ogbg]

Huh yeah. Greenland is part of Denmark, but is also self-governing... so it'd still take some kind of change in relationship to probably allow that to happen with Scotland.

What's the definition of self governing here? Scotland has a parliament with powers on education and health and it has its own legal system but it doesn't have control over income tax or defence. Is Greenland more or less independent than that?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

And gets back in?

Spain will do everything to veto this. They are too worried about the basques (?)

 

[NekoFever]

Spain will do everything to veto this. They are too worried about the basques (?)

And the Catalans.

 

[Camp Freddie]

That isn't true. Look at the text of it. The European Council can delay a countries withdrawal (indefinitely):

For what it's worth, in my job the common answer to an EU deadline is, "But what's the real deadline likely to be?"
The EU regulatory deadlines almost always dramatically underestimate the actual work and time required, leading to multiple extensions being rushed through COM/Parliament at the last minute.

This is perhaps a bit different, but if the EU27 and parliament unanimously agree to something, then it's definitely possible to reverse the decision without a treaty change (since the treaty does not explicitly state that triggering A.50 is irreversible).

Still, we'd need to make some major concessions to get the EU27 to unanimously agree to "extend indefinitely" the A.50 process.

 

[Funky Papa]

Spain will do everything to veto this. They are too worried about the basques (?)

Basques have been pretty chill for the last years. Nationalism remains, but separatism has imploded and nearly died out. It's Catalonia the one giving us a lot of headaches.

Rajoy won't go easy on Scotland. He's not an ally.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

And the Catalans.

Yeah. Sadly England/Wales will probably take Scotland/NI down with them.
Spain will never accept them in the EU (and to be fair, they have their reasons)

Basques have been pretty chill for the last years. It's Catalonia the one giving us a lot of headaches.

Rajoy won't go easy on Scotland. He's not an ally.

I don't know how that happened, but I totally mixed up Basques and Catalans. Embarassing.

 

[danowat]

I mean you have "Great" right there in the name That has to mean something. It's not "Great Germany" or "Great France"

Spoiler

I know Great Britain is just the island

Hehehe

We're making it Great again, it was, then it wasn't, but it will be (possibly) again.

 

[Joni]

Spain will probably be appeased by a rule that you can't join the EU when leaving a country that is in the EU. Which at the same time blocks them from leaving.

 

[gerg]

Spain will do everything to veto this. They are too worried about the basques (?)

There's a reason Sturgeon is exploring the possibility of having an EU Scotland be within a post-Brexit Britain, because navigating an independent Scottish EU membership would be incredibly arduous.

 

[theaface]

Maybe a stupid question, but is there a possibility wherein the SNP grows and expands its influence beyond Scotland? Obviously I get that the clue's in the name, but what's to say they stop there if they continue to ride a wave of gobbling up disenchanted former LAB/LIB/CON voters? Heck, right now, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.

 

[firehawk12]

What's the definition of self governing here? Scotland has a parliament with powers on education and health and it has its own legal system but it doesn't have control over income tax or defence. Is Greenland more or less independent than that?

I think it's specifically because Denmark recognizes Greenland's right to home rule. Maybe Scotland can push for more autonomy and self-governance in exchange for supporting England's plan to leave the EU? I don't know what would need to happen there.

 

[accel]

Regarding Scotland, please remember that Remain there was at 62%. Yes, that's higher than 50%, that means Scotland wanted to Remain, sure, but it leaves 38% of those who voted Leave, and 38% is a big number.

 

[backstep]

What we can hope is that the UK fails, formerly UK business thrives on the continental mainland and Ireland, and the whole farce serves as a reminder of why we need the EU and what's great about it.

Well your username is appropriate, that's for certain. We should hope the UK fails? Such a friendly statement. Let's actively wish ruin upon another nation to illustrate how necessary and great the EU is. That's disgusting.

Some of the other sentiments expressed in this thread are shameful, such as feeling that the elderly vote should hold less value than others, should be discounted, considered irrelevant. I thought neogaf is firmly on the side of equality. If similar statements were made about women or minorities you'd be rightly dogpiled and banned. Is it that some animals are more equal than others?

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Regarding Scotland, please remember that Remain there was at 62%. Yes, that's higher than 50%, that means Scotland wanted to Remain, sure, but it leaves 38% of those who voted Leave, and 38% is a big number.

38% is not a big number, 62% is a massive massive mandate, particularly when the vote is against the status quo.

Well your username is appropriate, that's for certain. We should hope the UK fails? Such a friendly statement. Let's actively wish ruin upon another nation to illustrate how necessary and great the EU is. That's disgusting.

Some of the other sentiments expressed in this thread are shameful, such as feeling that the elderly vote should hold less value than others, should be discounted, considered irrelevant. I thought neogaf is firmly on the side of equality. If similar statements were made about women or minorities you'd be rightly dogpiled and banned. Is it that some animals are more equal than others?

I said that the UK fails, not that the UK citizens suffer. I would recommend people interested participating in an inclusive Europe relocate, which thanks to the EU, they can!

 

[Fantastapotamus]

You know Scots, maybe you could join Austria? We are much alike, we both have a "bigger brother" country we kinda don't like that much and we both have the supperior dialect in our language. And we could use some people who are good a soccer. You would have to settle with a bunch of stupid politicians though.

Just sayin.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Regarding Scotland, please remember that Remain there was at 62%. Yes, that's higher than 50%, that means Scotland wanted to Remain, sure, but it leaves 38% of those who voted Leave, and 38% is a big number.

That 38 will be dwindling now with each passing day of what Brexit means.

 

[jelly]

AFP: #BREAKING EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

Well, yeah.

Good luck getting something better than what we have now Leave team. Pointless is putting it nicely.

 

[Bobnob]

There's a reason Sturgeon is exploring the possibility of having an EU Scotland be within a post-Brexit Britain, because navigating an independent Scottish EU membership would be incredibly arduous.

I don't think scotland would win a referendum on independence.

 

[Corto]

And gets back in?

Yeah. Catalonia and all that... Spain will veto any conversation with Scotland before a proper indyref result bringing them independence from UK.

 

[DavidDesu]

Those discussing borders between Scotland and England should Scotland become independent and remain in the EU while England doesn't...

I'm not sure if people realise just how unpalatable England will be to the average immigrant at that point. No jobs, the welfare state probably decimated by extreme austerity, possible right wing government in the shape of UKIP or UKIP pandering Tories making things awful socially for anyone who's not white/English, terrible value of the English pound.

I'm not sure anyone will be desperately trying to get to England by that point, in the way they believe they do currently. In that sense Farage will have won.... the people will have completely lost but who cares about them eh?

 

[Funky Papa]

Regarding Scotland, please remember that Remain there was at 62%. Yes, that's higher than 50%, that means Scotland wanted to Remain, sure, but it leaves 38% of those who voted Leave, and 38% is a big number.

Scotland would need its own referendum in the event of independence, so who knows how it'd vote then. The fallout from Brexit would probably shape a lot of minds.