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[Bananajama]

Yes, I'm sure a majority of leave voters cared about the finer points of EU policy and procedure.

I knew people would jump on me! Pro EU GAF I get it

The point I'm getting at though is if it takes 4 years to push such a simple process through.
What money gets wasted elsewhere as that's woefully inefficient?

 

[Zaph]

What money gets wasted elsewhere as that's woefully inefficient?

Read the last page - even before a lot of benefits, our contribution to the EU is less than £200m/week. I know that sounds like a lot to you an I, but it really isn't on a national scale.

Even if it was all spent on cigars and blow, the EU is still a net positive for the economy.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Don't worry, I'm doing my part by injecting hard currency into your economy.

That is fucking disgusting.

When it comes to food, I'm glad I'm British by nationality and not by culture.

The English don't know how to cook.

 

[Bananajama]

Read the last page - even before a lot of benefits, our contribution to the EU is less than £200m/week. I know that sounds like a lot to you an I, but it really isn't on a national scale.

Even if it was all spent on cigars and blow, the EU is still a net positive for the economy.

Its not the costs to the UK I particularly care about (costs as in contribution)
I'm fine with that

I also said this page I'm fine with a weekly contribution as we'll have to do for access to the Single Market.

My problem is with the set up itself and how it spends that money. It's in need of reform and I just don't see it happening.

 

[*Splinter]

I knew people would jump on me! Pro EU GAF I get it

The point I'm getting at though is if it takes 4 years to push such a simple process through.
What money gets wasted elsewhere as that's woefully inefficient?

If I posted something along the lines of

"A lot of people who voted remain aren't against kicking out the foreigners, but know that the EU is the only thing holding back the lizard people."

then I would be jumped on too. And rightly so.

 

[Bananajama]

If I posted something along the lines of

"A lot of people who voted remain aren't against kicking out the foreigners, but know that the EU is the only thing holding back the lizard people."

then I would be jumped on too. And rightly so.

You're stereotyping 17million voters as anti-immigration though

That's blatantly false

You can't lump 17million people into one category like that when I know from conversations with professionals (not lumberjacks or joe the plumber but highly educated people here - again another stereotype that those voted leave are uneducated did the rounds)

I was quite happy sitting on the fence listening to both sides of the argument.

And it was entertaining to say the least between some staff members.
And quite often when immigration got raised by the anti-eu.
The Pro EU staff member would say exactly that "Oh you just want to kick all the foreigners out"

Which sitting on the fence enjoying the argument - he wasn't saying at all!

*edit - added: The Pro EU are far too eager to wave the anti-immigration stick around when there was a number of voters trying to talk the point for controlled migration or just against the EU ideology and bureaucracy

But it's far easier to label them all as racist xenophobes - I get it

 

[Audioboxer]

What on earth is #ScottishSix and why is it trending on Twitter?

I would be much more interested in #ScottishSex

 

[kmag]

I knew people would jump on me! Pro EU GAF I get it

The point I'm getting at though is if it takes 4 years to push such a simple process through.
What money gets wasted elsewhere?

So you want the EU to be able to unilaterally set taxation rates for member states?

VAT doesn't have to be equalised across member nations for the common market to work but it needs to be kept within a relatively tight spectrum. Those spectrums are part of the VAT directives which ultimately goes through the council of ministers, the agreement all member states signed up for was that most vat would be within 5% to 25% but no country could 0% rate new items without it unanimously passing, existing zero rates would be grandfathered in but new ones couldn't be. Since we didn't have a pre 91 0% rate on this...

It might sound silly in this case but ultimately that's what everyone agreed to.

And in terms of reform, everyone realised it's a bit of a shit show on this issue so they've proposed two options

Under the current rules, Member States need to stick to a predefined
list of goods and services when it comes to applying zero
or reduced VAT rates. The Commission plans to modernise the
framework for rates and to give Member States more flexibility in
future. It proposes two options: one option would be to
maintain the minimum standard rate of 15% and to review
regularly the list of goods and services which can benefit from
reduced rates, based on Member States' input. The second option
would abolish the list of goods and services that can benefit from
reduced rates. This would, however, require safeguards to prevent
fraud, avoid unfair tax competition within the Single Market and it
could also increase compliance costs for businesses. Under both
options, the currently applicable zero and reduced rates would be
maintained.

 

[Bananajama]

So you want the EU to be able to unilaterally set taxation rates for member states?

VAT doesn't have to be equalised across member nations for the common market to work but it needs to be kept within a relatively tight spectrum. Those spectrums are part of the VAT directives which ultimately goes through the council of ministers, the agreement all member states signed up for was that most vat would be within 5% to 25% but no country could 0% rate new items without it unanimously passing, existing zero rates would be grandfathered in but new ones couldn't be. Since we didn't have a pre 91 0% rate on this...

It might sound silly in this case but ultimately that's what everyone agreed to.

100% agree on this

But for reference we're talking the Tampon Tax here which should be 0% across all member states

So changing it to 0% wouldn't induce critical failure across the EU system

 

[Maledict]

You're stereotyping 17million voters as anti-immigration though

That's blatantly false

You can't lump 17million people into one category like that when I know from conversations with professionals (not lumberjacks or joe the plumber but highly educated people here - again another stereotype that those voted leave are uneducated did the rounds)

I was quite happy sitting on the fence listening to both sides of the argument.

And it was entertaining to say the least between some staff members.
And quite often when immigration got raised by the anti-eu.
The Pro EU staff member would say exactly that "Oh you just want to kick all the foreigners out"

Which sitting on the fence enjoying the argument - he wasn't saying at all!

*edit - added: The Pro EU are far too eager to wave the anti-immigration stick around when there was a number of voters trying to talk the point for controlled migration or just against the EU ideology and bureaucracy

But it's far easier to label them all as racist xenophobes - I get it

We know that the largest single issue, by *far*, for Brexit voters was immigration.

We know that immigration was the issue that turned the referendum around in the polls.

We know that the leave campaign used racist language and imagery and scare stories in the final few weeks.

We know that areas that voted leave had the highest % change in immigration levels over the last few years.


So yes, whilst some leave voters didn't vote on immigration we know the vast majority did.
It's a complete misnomer to suggest that immigration wasn't at he heart of the leave campaign or its voters.

 

[*Splinter]

You're stereotyping 17million voters as anti-immigration though

That's blatantly false

You can't lump 17million people into one category like that when I know from conversations with professionals (not lumberjacks or joe the plumber but highly educated people here - again another stereotype that those voted leave are uneducated did the rounds)

I was quite happy sitting on the fence listening to both sides of the argument.

And it was entertaining to say the least between some staff members.
And quite often when immigration got raised by the anti-eu.
The Pro EU staff member would say exactly that "Oh you just want to kick all the foreigners out"

Which sitting on the fence enjoying the argument - he wasn't saying at all!

You made the statement that "a lot" of leave voters did so because they are worried about "bureaucracy" in the EU. I don't believe that a majority - or even a significant minority - have any knowledge of the inner workings of the EU. People voting against "bureaucracy" are voting on the basis of tabloid headlines.

I never said anything about leave voters being anti-immigration (I implied that remain voters are not anti-immigration).

 

[Bananajama]

Crossed wires then

Don't tar all with the same brush though!

 

[Audioboxer]

You made the statement that "a lot" of leave voters did so because they are worried about "bureaucracy" in the EU. I don't believe that a majority - or even a significant minority - have any knowledge of the inner workings of the EU. People voting against "bureaucracy" are voting on the basis of tabloid headlines.

I never said anything about leave voters being anti-immigration (I implied that remain voters are not anti-immigration).

Tons of voters probably didn't have a clue what article 50 is and simply thought waking up the following day meant the UK wasn't in the EU.

Yes. Droves of voters were that dumb for this vote. I mean some of them literally thought we could just eject random citizens the following days because they were "brown skinned and clearly immigrants". Smh.

Our newspapers are absolute garbage. Stop buying them UK peeps. Just stop it (literally one or two of them might be okay).

 

[kmag]

100% agree on this

But for reference we're talking the Tampon Tax here which should be 0% across all member states

So changing it to 0% would induce critical failure across the EU system

Should it? I'd probably agree but you'd be setting it for each member state without getting their approval. After all here's the rationale behind UK has legislated VAT on sanitary products over the years.

Prior to the March 2000 Budget, the Labour Government’s position on
cutting VAT on sanitary protection was that it would not be appropriate
to extend special treatment to just this one product, an argument which
the previous Conservative Government also made. When introduced
in 1973, VAT was designed to be as broadly based as possible, in the
interests of fairness, simplicity and legal certainty. It is arguable that
introducing one new reduced rate might well encourage lobbying for
other reduced rates on ‘essential’ items, eroding government revenues
from VAT and the base of the tax itself

I don't agree with that rationale in the case of sanitary products which seems to be a clear exception but the argument itself (the tax should broadly apply and special treatments should rarely be limited on one product) is pretty sound. I can only imagine the brexiteers going into full thundercunt mode because the EU were telling the UK what their taxes should be. TAKE BACK CONTROL!!!!

And it doesn't cause critical failure but it does cause an hitherto unagreed exception. If you're going to change the agreed model you have to go through the process of consultation, and it wouldn't be to change one vat rate on one type of product it would be to put in place a new more flexible framework. The proposals to do that have already been submitted.

 

[Bananajama]

Should it? I'd probably agree but you'd be setting it for each member state without getting their approval. After all here's the rationale behind UK has legislated VAT on sanitary products over the years.



I can only imagine the brexiteers going into full thundercunt mode because the EU were telling the UK what their taxes should be. TAKE BACK CONTROL!!!!

And it doesn't cause critical failure but it does cause an hitherto unagreed exception. If you're going to change the agreed model you have to go through the process of consultation, and it wouldn't be to change one vat rate on one type of product it would be to put in place a new more flexible framework. The proposals to do that have already been submitted.

I don't want to get into the debate of whether it should or shouldn't - that's a different topic really.

I was using it as an easy source to highlight the time it takes and the paper work involved to get such a change approved. (It's a small simple one really if you look at it)

*edit

If you want a complicated one UK currently charges 5% VAT on all renewable energy products
EU wants them (or rather wanted) to change to 20% VAT as it shouldn't be entitled to a reduced rate.

This would have a far larger economic impact on other EU countries who manufacture and sell these goods.

I think it's completely disingenuous to pretend that immigration wasn't *the* issue for the vast majority of Leavites.

Agree 100%

But I'm against tarring everyone who voted leave as anti-immigration

 

[Walshicus]

I think it's completely disingenuous to pretend that immigration wasn't *the* issue for the vast majority of Leavites.

 

[Uzzy]

This is the best a five star business hotel in London can provide.

I'm so sorry it has come to this.

That's the best London can provide? Bloody hell, we need to throw London out of the UK. #Lonexit

 

[mclem]

The EU. Its villainy trascends frontiers. Case example:

Suggesting that the EU is to blame for floods is completely without foundation

But honestly, tabloids will have to get a bit more creative.

Hang on, I don't believe that. Let me feed it through the tabloid-iser:

"BUILDINGS AT RISK AS EU REMOVES FOUNDATIONS"

Oh my.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Agree 100%

But I'm against tarring everyone who voted leave as anti-immigration

No, just most.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The EU. Its villainy trascends frontiers. Case example:

Suggesting that the EU is to blame for floods is completely without foundation

But honestly, tabloids will have to get a bit more creative.

So your proof that the EU isn't to blame for the floods is...a blog run by the European Commission.

Nice try, Juncker.

 

[Theonik]

No, just most.

Not racist but #1 with racists.

 

[EmiPrime]

If we leave Europe completely and are no longer under any EU legislation, who will be the new scapegoat for this kind of drivel?

I am backing a return to prominence of the ever popular Health and Safety Regulations and Political Correctness Gone Mad boogiemen but they will blame Westminster for them instead of Brussels.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I am backing a return to prominence of the ever popular Health and Safety Regulations and Political Correctness Gone Mad boogiemen but they will blame Westminster for them instead of Brussels.

We'll be lucky to have any effective HS&E protections after this shit is over >_>

 

[EmiPrime]

We'll be lucky to have any effective HS&E protections after this shit is over >_>

Shut up and eat your asbestos Lambda.

 

[Dougald]

Shut up and eat your asbestos Lambda.

The EU wants to regulate what you eat for lunch! It's health and safety gone mad!

 

[Log4Girlz]

Hang on, I don't believe that. Let me feed it through the tabloid-iser:

"BUILDINGS AT RISK AS EU REMOVES FOUNDATIONS"

Oh my.

EU? More like Eew amirite?

 

[Orniletter]

I knew people would jump on me! Pro EU GAF I get it

The point I'm getting at though is if it takes 4 years to push such a simple process through.
What money gets wasted elsewhere as that's woefully inefficient?

5.9% of the EU budget was spent to keep the entire bureacracy going. Thats really not a lot for a continent spanning...sort of...government.

 

[Bananajama]

5.9% of the EU budget was spent to keep the entire bureacracy going[/URL]. Thats really not a lot for a continent spanning...sort of...government.

Snip - Breakdown of everything else?

5,9% on admin.

Admin here as a cost typically comprises of all the back office wages.
Not wages of those who are assigned departments. (e.g. Specialists in Global Europe)

(Note: Don't go looking for me (unless you really want to) - I'm having a scan myself tonight when I get home and I'll post back)

 

[anonymous_abc]

5.9% of the EU budget was spent to keep the entire bureacracy going. Thats really not a lot for a continent spanning...sort of...government.

I think it's time all of Europe pulled together and put those 5.9% in to the NHS. It's clearly the right thing to do.

 

[Orniletter]

Snip - Breakdown of everything else?

5,9% on admin.

Admin here as a cost typically comprises of all the back office wages.
Not wages of those who are assigned departments. (e.g. Specialists in Global Europe)

(Note: Don't go looking for me (unless you really want to) - I'm having a scan myself tonight when I get home and I'll post back)

Over 94% of the EU budget goes to citizens, regions, cities, farmers and businesses. The EU's administrative expenses account for under 6% of the total EU budget, with salaries accounting for around half of that 6%.

Salaries are paid to staff managing useful EU policies that benefit citizens directly, e.g. air traffic liberalisation, passenger rights or cheaper roaming charges. Commission staff negotiate trade agreements that help bring down the price of consumer goods and offer a wider choice of affordable products. They are also helping the EU to draw the right lessons from the financial and economic crisis, by ensuring that financial markets are regulated and supervised better.

Administrative costs have been stable for a long time. Over the past 5 years every effort has been made to keep them low. The Commission has conducted a zero growth policy as regards staff numbers. It has coped with new responsibilities and priorities by redeploying existing staff and has asked for no extra staff beyond those needed in connection with the countries that have recently joined the EU. In 2012 it also decided to freeze its administrative expenditure.

6% and thats it.

Spoiler

As far as I understand

I think it's time all of Europe pulled together and put those 5.9% in to the NHS. It's clearly the right thing to do.

I don't think Farage and Johnsen would even take our filthy european money.

Spoiler

lol

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I don't think Farage and Johnsen would even take our filthy european money.

Spoiler

lol

Farage loves your filthy European money. You think he's not cashing those MEP pay cheques?

 

[Bananajama]

Farage & the UKIP were a stain on the British interest in Europe

Never turning up to vote on things that would be of interest & benefit to the British public.

I said in the referendum thread at the time I hope they disappear into oblivion regardless of the result.

6% and thats it.

+1 Ta

 

[Hazzuh]

Some polling from Yougov (via Britain elects):

On a UK-EU free trade deal without free movement, the EU should...
Agree: 42%
Not agree: 5%
Agree, but have free movement: 31%
(via YouGov)


EU referendum poll:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 44%
(via YouGov / 21 - 22 Jul)


EU referendum poll in (X):
(Remain / Leave)
DEU: 61 / 24
FRA: 47 / 32
DNK: 55 / 35
SWE: 54 / 31
FIN: 50 / 30
(via YouGov / 20 - 27 Jul)


An EU deal with Britain should be...
(Generous / Not generous):
DEU: 31 / 54
FRA: 26 / 54
DNK: 50 / 35
SWE: 43 / 40
FIN: 28 / 52
(YouGov)

 

[Zaph]

.

This made me laugh, reality meets delusion:

It's all going to be okay, ScummerAndProud told me the EU needs us more than we need them.

 

[Dougald]

It's all going to be okay, ScummerAndProud told me the EU needs us more than we need them.

Something something German carmakers

 

[AHA-Lambda]

An EU deal with Britain should be...
(Generous / Not generous):
DEU: 31 / 54
FRA: 26 / 54
DNK: 50 / 35
SWE: 43 / 40
FIN: 28 / 52
(YouGov)

Thing is we deserve it, can't argue with them.

Some polling from Yougov (via Britain elects):

On a UK-EU free trade deal without free movement, the EU should...
Agree: 42%
Not agree: 5%
Agree, but have free movement: 31%
(via YouGov)

And I can't believe we let people this delusional vote >_>

Scottish independence poll:
Yes: 40% (-1)
No: 45% (-3)
(via YouGov / 20 - 25 Jul)
Chgs. from May

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/759387051708059648

Scottish voters / On a choice between a Scotland...
In the EU and not part of the UK: 37%
Part of the UK and not in the EU: 46%
(via YouGov)

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/759387749317283840

Scottish voters / On a choice between a Scotland...
In Single Market, not part of UK: 34%
Part of UK, not in Single Market: 40%
(via YouGov)

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/759391336445440001

 

[Funky Papa]

omg

omg

I've never felt more wronged in my life.

I'm calling Junker.

 

[Dougald]

I hope that indignation is because they didn't give you enough marmite

 

[*Splinter]

The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Funky Papa's Breakfast Blog

 

[Mr. Sam]

The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| It's Not EU, It's EME

I feel like this one should have been done already - if it hasn't.

 

[SKINNER!]

Yeah the country is fucked but at least we got our blue passports back!! TAKE BACK CONTROL!

 

[Number45]

Farage finally found something he can promise and might actually be able to deliver at some point? Shocking.

 

[Hasney]

Yeah the country is fucked but at least we got our blue passports back!! TAKE BACK CONTROL!

It's uglier than the one I have too.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Oh great, price has gone up on my cineworld unlimited card too

I blame Brexit >_>

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Oh great, price has gone up on my cineworld unlimited card too

I blame Brexit >_>

If that's a problem for you it just means your margins are thin.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Yeah the country is fucked but at least we got our blue passports back!! TAKE BACK CONTROL!

... The brown passport I have now looks so much nicer...

 

[Log4Girlz]

The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| It's Not EU, It's EME

I feel like this one should have been done already - if it hasn't.

The UK votes to leave the European Onion |OUT2| Dark World

 

[*Splinter]

When I were a lad we had these red-brown passports. None of this blue shit.

 

[Xando]

Some polling from Yougov (via Britain elects):

On a UK-EU free trade deal without free movement, the EU should...
Agree: 42%
Not agree: 5%
Agree, but have free movement: 31%
(via YouGov)

Meanwhile in europe:

A new YouGov poll has found that 47% of Germans, 44% of French, 56% of Finns, 45% of Swedes and 46% of Danes think that the EU should only offer the UK a post-Brexit free trade deal in exchange for keeping in place the free movement of people. Only 9% of Germans, 11% of French and 9% of Finns, but 19% of Swedes and 25% of Danes, believe the UK should get an FTA without free movement while 25% and 26% of Germans and French respectively also said that there should be no UK-EU FTA at all. In contrast, 42% of UK respondents said there should be a FTA without free movement compared to 31% so said there should be a FTA with free movement, while 5% said there should be no deal at all.

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shak...vement-people-integral-post-brexit-uk-eu-fta/

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Meanwhile in europe:


http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shak...vement-people-integral-post-brexit-uk-eu-fta/