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[Zaph]

look at that % of young people 'thinking' of leaving! of course talk is cheap and it wont be anywhere near 43%

It's no so much the total number that could hurt us, but how many of the best and brightest think it's better to stake their career elsewhere - the inverse of what's worked to the UK's benefit for so long.

The uncomfortable truth is, when I'm in a meeting, the smartest heads around that table aren't British-born. That's not a knock on our education, but a simple numbers game due to talent wanting to be here. It's the best for them and their future.

It angers me that in 10 or 15 years from now, some nerd might be sitting in a conference room in Frankfurt or Paris thinking "isn't it nice we have all these smart British people here?".

 

[DiGiKerot]

look at that % of young people 'thinking' of leaving! of course talk is cheap and it wont be anywhere near 43%

Well, yeah - that they're going to have to apply for work visas to work in Europe by the time they've finished with Uni is going to naturally throttle down the numbers!

 

[jelly]

[BBC] Immigration: Points-based system not 'silver bullet' - May


Another Leave campaign 'suggestion' put out to pasture.

Who would have thought the immigration system for a small, borderline banana republic isn't really ideal for a much larger, more global, service-based economy. Sorry guys, we can't be more like our racist cousins in the middle of nowhere.

So, why are we leaving again?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I like how good at politics May is. Her defense of avoiding a points-based system is incredible - a points-based system apparently gives the right to immigrate to anyone who meets the points, whereas May thinks control should reside with the government. The trouble is, that's an incredibly meaningless statement. The government cannot possibly decide on every single application contextually - think about how many people want to come to the UK! These applications will always be handled semi-automatically according to how well or not they meet certain criteria. A points-system is just a formal recognition of that, which is why the UK actually already uses a points-system for non-European immigration.

What May actually means is "oh fuck, we can't actually get rid of freedom of movement, hmmm, how can I make it still seems like the government decides?" and came up with one of the smoothest pieces of bullshit going.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

look at that % of young people 'thinking' of leaving! of course talk is cheap and it wont be anywhere near 43%

Well you can add +1 here, if Scotland loses independence I'll be off too

The brain drain from this country is going to be huge

 

[*Splinter]

look at that % of young people 'thinking' of leaving! of course talk is cheap and it wont be anywhere near 43%

Well of course most won't actually leave, but how can it be anything but a bad thing that almost half of all young people are considering leaving the country?

Although to be fair I don't know how that number compares to previous years. It sounds high but it's meaningless on its own.

 

[Funky Papa]

I'm not sure a vote to remain would have changed this.

It would have.

Nissan, Toyota and Ford have huge investments and little incentive to move elsewhere as the chain of supply is already there and their European design and engineering HQs are located in the UK, increasing synergies.

Lose access to the common market and put a restriction on freedom of services and the UK goes back from car manufacturing leader to European Detroit.

 

[sohois]

look at that % of young people 'thinking' of leaving! of course talk is cheap and it wont be anywhere near 43%

I'm desperate to move away as soon I can to avoid visa issues, and actually have the means to do so since I've spent years working abroad and speak other languages.

still gonna be stuck here for another few years though, as my immigrant wife needs to get citizenship. Then she can claim benefits whilst stealing english jobs.

 

[BKK]

It's no so much the total number that could hurt us, but how many of the best and brightest think it's better to stake their career elsewhere - the inverse of what's worked to the UK's benefit for so long.

The uncomfortable truth is, when I'm in a meeting, the smartest heads around that table aren't British-born. That's not a knock on our education, but a simple numbers game due to talent wanting to be here. It's the best for them and their future.

It angers me that in 10 or 15 years from now, some nerd might be sitting in a conference room in Frankfurt or Paris thinking "isn't it nice we have all these smart British people here?".

But the argument is about having control over low-skilled immigration. High-skilled immigration should still be allowed (as it already is from outside of EU, although that is currently made more difficult by government targets). Still, I can certainly see the UK being less attractive to high-skilled immigrants (especially if GBP remains low), but it won't be completely stopped, and will be slightly offset by non-EU high-skilled immigrants.

 

[2MF]

I get the feeling they're setting up a "slightly restricted immigration, slightly restricted EU market access scenario" which saves face / compromises both with leave voters and the EU.

May's latest statements make me believe that even more.

 

[Rodelero]

Everyone knew what £350m meant, remainers couldn't stop mentioning it, and BBC loved to show how the leave campaign was misleading. Of course, that's what leave wanted, to the average man in the street £350m or £35m is the same they're huge amounts. Ridiculous own goal for remain to focus on that.

I'm not sure I can quite cope with a paragraph that contains the sentences:

"Everyone knew what £350m meant"

and

"to the average man in the street £350m or £35m is the same they're huge amounts"

I can't help but feel there is a fair bit of victim blaming going on when you're criticising people for highlighting how damned misleading the Leave campaign was.

 

[Frankfurter]

It would have.

Nissan, Toyota and Ford have huge investments and little incentive to move elsewhere as the chain of supply is already there and their European design and engineering HQs are located in the UK, increasing synergies.

Lose access to the common market and put a restriction on freedom of services and the UK goes back from car manufacturing leader to European Detroit.

?

 

[BKK]

I'm not sure I can quite cope with a paragraph that contains the sentences:

"Everyone knew what £350m meant"

and

"to the average man in the street £350m or £35m is the same they're huge amounts"

It's simple, leave EU's message was that a large amount of money is transferred from the UK to the EU. The actual number wasn't really relevant to get his message across. Vote remain's strategy to keep on banging on about the actual figure, rather than the principal backfired. It kept in the news a negative about being in the EU, rather than a positive.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I like how good at politics May is. Her defense of avoiding a points-based system is incredible - a points-based system apparently gives the right to immigrate to anyone who meets the points, whereas May thinks control should reside with the government. The trouble is, that's an incredibly meaningless statement. The government cannot possibly decide on every single application contextually - think about how many people want to come to the UK! These applications will always be handled semi-automatically according to how well or not they meet certain criteria. A points-system is just a formal recognition of that, which is why the UK actually already uses a points-system for non-European immigration.

What May actually means is "oh fuck, we can't actually get rid of freedom of movement, hmmm, how can I make it still seems like the government decides?" and came up with one of the smoothest pieces of bullshit going.

Well if we set out a list of requirements, those sneaky immigrants would just meet those requirements!

Funnily enough, this sort of logic does already seem to apply for marriage visas (i.e. visas for non-EU fiancees that want to come to the UK to marry their partners). A requirement is to prove that there is a "genuine and subsisting" relationship, but nowhere in the guidance does it state what would be satisfactory proof. I believe this is because if you just said "piece of paper X will do" then you open yourself up to appeals from people that get refused, yet have piece of paper X.

Edit:

Very nice figures for services PMI this morning!

 

[jufonuk]

Brexit can mean Brexit, it has no definition.

I honestly doubt and trust them to do what is in the will of the people.

they wont want to lose the banking passport nor freedom of movement, EU ties or current investments are incoming.


Brexit means we stay connect to the EU but also deal with other countries and can claim we make our own rules etc,.

Tories bring in austerity and fuck the NHS up a bit all in the name of brexit.

we wont get EU funding but that's ok we can be taxed more.

all in the name of taking back control, this is what will happen. oh wait one more thing. sorry NO BBC as it stands, it will taken over slowly by other companies, Murdoch included.

 

[oti]

Three Polish ministers are set to visit London in wake of the hate crime murder of a countryman.

 

[Funky Papa]

?

The UK is a major car manufacturer. Many Honda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles sold in Europe are produced in Britain, on top of engines for export and large design and R&D operations. The entire industry was rebuilt thanks to Japanese firms, which are now understandably antsy.

 

[2MF]

The UK is a major car manufacturer. Many Honda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles sold in Europe are produced in Britain, on top of engines for export and large design and R&D operations. The entire industry was rebuilt thanks to Japanese firms, which are now understandably antsy.

I can't help but see the irony- many leavers used German car makers as an argument, suddenly car makers from another country showed up and the message is not as good...

 

[Deleted member 231381]

PMI figures are okay. They're not great in and of themselves, but in the context they're better than expected. Would expect q/q growth of ~0.3% from that, or yearly 1.2%, so probably no immediate recession upcoming, and good that confidence has gone up, at least short-term. But again, same as last time: we're still in a period where most good and services had their costs met in strong pounds and then are being sold at weak pounds. Wait until October before getting too ahead of ourselves, so we're dealing with a period when most of the supply chain is all post-Brexit.

 

[tomtom94]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37271674

Lorry drivers and farmers are blockading the main motorway route into Calais in a protest calling for the closure of the town's migrant camp.
Local traders and trade unions also taking part and Cross-Channel travellers are facing disruption.
But the Port of Calais says a diversion has been put in place and ferries are operating as normal.
Two convoys of trucks left Dunkirk and Boulogne on the A16 motorway towards Calais on a "go slow".
Farmers in tractors were waiting on the side of the road to join the convoy.
Meanwhile, in Calais hundreds of protesters carrying banners gathered on the motorway, which is located close to the entrance to the Channel Tunnel and ferry terminals.

 

[jufonuk]

The UK is a major car manufacturer. Many Honda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles sold in Europe are produced in Britain, on top of engines for export and large design and R&D operations. The entire industry was rebuilt thanks to Japanese firms, which are now understandably antsy.

I think this coupled with the realisation many jobs will go if the UK goes full Brexit, will lead to a backpeddle.

the UK will act like someone who gets into a fight and tries to act like they would've won and it was lucky they were being held back.

 

[kmag]

I can't help but see the irony- many leavers used German car makers as an argument, suddenly car makers from another country showed up and the message is not as good...

About 19% of German cars go to the UK, about 57% of 'UK' Cars go to the EU. I know whose Car Manufacturers are going to be squawking louder. The Japanese companies want to stay, whereas I think Ford and GM were on their way out anyway.

 

[Halph n Halph]

It would have.

Nissan, Toyota and Ford have huge investments and little incentive to move elsewhere as the chain of supply is already there and their European design and engineering HQs are located in the UK, increasing synergies.

Lose access to the common market and put a restriction on freedom of services and the UK goes back from car manufacturing leader to European Detroit.

Brexit certainly won't help the UK car industry but being a member of the EU doesn't guarantee job security either. Recently Ford ceased production in Southampton and relocated it to a new factory in Turkey (how that is beneficial regarding tarrifs I'm not knowledgeable on). Moving to eastern Europe could still be an attractive proposition regardless of Britain or any other member state being in the trade bloc.
Detroit didn't vote to leave the USA but the car companies up n left Detroit.
Having said that,you will hear no argument from me that remain would have been the best outcome for the car industry in Britain.

 

[BKK]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37271674

Not really Brexit related, but the French are going to remove "the Jungle" by the end of the year.

Still, the French should have upheld the rule of law prior to this. They are either illegal immigrants or asylum seekers (where according to EU law they should apply in the first country that they arrive), just letting a camp grow up and hoping that they will gradually find their way to the UK is ludicrous to most people from the UK who trust the rule of law. Merkel did the same with her invite to migrants last year, completely side-stepping EU law to achieve a migration policy beneficial to Germany. It's a disadvantage to the UK where rule of law is supreme, and it's next to impossible for the government to side-step the law as is so often done in mainland European countries.

 

[kmag]

Brexit certainly won't help the UK car industry but being a member of the EU doesn't guarantee job security either. Recently Ford ceased production in Southampton and relocated it to a new factory in Turkey (how that is beneficial regarding tarrifs I'm not knowledgeable on). Moving to eastern Europe could still be an attractive proposition regardless of Britain or any other member state being in the trade bloc.
Detroit didn't vote to leave the USA but the car companies up n left Detroit.
Having said that,you will hear no argument from me that remain would have been the best outcome for the car industry in Britain.

Ah the Minford argument, it (manufacturing) was all going anyway may as well take a shovel to it's head straight way.

 

[BKK]

About 19% of German cars go to the UK, about 57% of 'UK' Cars go to the EU. I know whose Car Manufacturers are going to be squawking louder. The Japanese companies want to stay, whereas I think Ford and GM were on their way out anyway.

But what % of those "UK cars" are from German manufacturers? German car manufacturers are really going to be lobbying both governments to keep as close to the status quo as possible.

 

[Koren]

How fast can we boycott Sony and Nintendo? We need Sinclair to release a new Spectrum console as soon as possible, so we can play play British games on British consoles.

Well, you have a more modern console than that...

How about GX One?

 

[kirblar]

I like how good at politics May is. Her defense of avoiding a points-based system is incredible - a points-based system apparently gives the right to immigrate to anyone who meets the points, whereas May thinks control should reside with the government. The trouble is, that's an incredibly meaningless statement. The government cannot possibly decide on every single application contextually - think about how many people want to come to the UK! These applications will always be handled semi-automatically according to how well or not they meet certain criteria. A points-system is just a formal recognition of that, which is why the UK actually already uses a points-system for non-European immigration.

What May actually means is "oh fuck, we can't actually get rid of freedom of movement, hmmm, how can I make it still seems like the government decides?" and came up with one of the smoothest pieces of bullshit going.

This sounds like exactly the skillset you'd want right now if you're aiming to de-escalate this whole mess.

 

[BKK]

Well, you have a more modern console than that...

How about GX One?

Ironically this was more popular in France than the UK.

 

[Koren]

Ironically this was more popular in France than the UK.

Mine is still working, it's not that bad, it was mostly lacking games...

 

[BKK]

Mine is still working, it's not that bad, it was mostly lacking games...

Because you don't have Chase HQ II

 

[kmag]

But what % of those "UK cars" are from German manufacturers? German car manufacturers are really going to be lobbying both governments to keep as close to the status quo as possible.

Other than Mini? I suppose Rolls Royce is German owned, but other than that and the BMW engine factory in Hams Hall, the Germans aren't exactly major players in UK car manufacturing. Mini is just 12.4% of the cars manufactured in the UK.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Ah the Minford argument, it (manufacturing) was all going anyway may as well take a shovel to it's head straight way.

Unfortunately, I know Minford well and I can confirm that he is an absolute arsehole. He literally once argued that if we had a flat tax, the poor would be taxed more, which would disincentivize them not to be poor, and therefore would be a great economic policy.

 

[BKK]

There was also the C64-GS, basically a C64 console. Yes, Commodore was a US company, but this was an initiative from Commodore UK, They made 100,000 units, after only selling 17,000 they recalled the rest and used the motherboards to make standard C64s. They're massively expensive now, which is a missed opportunity for me as I remember when they were in the bargain bins.

The funny thing was, most launch games were conversions of standard C64 software. One game required "push x on keyboard to continue", as the C64-GS lacked a keyboard, the game was unplayable!

 

[kmag]

Lloyds of ...Amsterdam?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-lloyd-s-of-london-idUKKCN11B0ZZ

Lloyd's of London SOLYD.UL will transfer some business to the European Union if Britain doesn't get single market access after it leaves the bloc, the insurance market's chairman said on Monday.

"If we do not get access to the EU single market, what will happen is that business will be written by us and others onshore in the EU," John Nelson told the BBC Today programme.

"If we do not see a clear direction of travel, we will have to invoke our contingency plans," he added.

"That would mean moving business, or business leaving London, more quickly than say the renegotiation timetable. So therefore clarity is important, clarity fairly soon."

Lloyd's is the world's leading market for specialist insurance and reinsurance. Some UK-based insurers have already said they were looking to set up regulated subsidiaries in the EU following the referendum vote.

The interesting thing about the EU is that doorplating is pretty difficult when the parent company is outside the union. It's not just the case of creating a shell subsidiary and getting the relevant license, you have to demonstrate the activity that's why Lloyds are talking about moving EU facing operations before the end of the renegotiation.

 

[BKK]

Other than Mini? I suppose Rolls Royce is German owned, but other than that and the BMW engine factory in Hams Hall, the Germans aren't exactly major players in UK car manufacturing. Mini is just 12.4% of the cars manufactured in the UK.

Well, 12.4% isn't insignificant, but I guess that most are Japanese or Indian? Still, I think that the car industry is least likely to be affected due to the investment made by current EU companies. Financial services is where the real issue will lie.

 

[kmag]

Well, 12.4% isn't insignificant, but I guess that most are Japanese or Indian? Still, I think that the car industry is least likely to be affected due to the investment made by current EU companies. Financial services is where the real issue will lie.

Tata owned Land Rover is the biggest. Then Nissan, GM, Toyota then Mini.

Most of that investment is sunk now, and can largely be written off when the current production cycles end. Generally there's an internal bidding competition between factories for the next production model. The factories are essentially shut for a summer, retooled, staff retrained for the next production model (normally in place for 6-8 years) so if you're going to exit you exit at that point.

 

[BKK]

Lloyds of ...Amsterdam?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-lloyd-s-of-london-idUKKCN11B0ZZ



The interesting thing about the EU is that doorplating is pretty difficult when the parent company is outside the union. It's not just the case of creating a shell subsidiary and getting the relevant license, you have to demonstrate the activity that's why Lloyds are talking about moving EU facing operations before the end of the renegotiation.

Yeah, this is where the big issues lie ... a lot will depend on the outcome of negotiations. Still, whilst there may be some lost to EU, I think that overall London will remain the premier financial services market, but it will be diminished somewhat (even for FX trading UK lost a not insignificant to Asia in the last "3 year" report). In the mid-long term Asia will probably be a bigger competitor than EU.

 

[BKK]

Tata owned Land Rover is the biggest. Then Nissan, GM, Toyota then Mini.

Most of that investment is sunk now, and can largely be written off when the current production cycles end. Generally there's an internal bidding competition between factories for the next production model. The factories are essentially shut for a summer, retooled, staff retrained for the next production model (normally in place for 6-8 years) so if you're going to exit you exit at that point.

Yeah, at least UK has the benefit of low FX-rate and a high-skilled work-force at the moment to counter-balance, but I can certainly see the UK losing out to Eastern European plants in the future, but that was always an issue.

 

[kmag]

Yeah, this is where the big issues lie ... a lot will depend on the outcome of negotiations. Still, whilst there may be some lost to EU, I think that overall London will remain the premier financial services market, but it will be diminished somewhat (even for FX trading UK lost a not insignificant to Asia in the last "3 year" report). In the mid-long term Asia will probably be a bigger competitor than EU.

The problem isn't so much is whether all the car manufacturers will move or whether London will still be the pre-eminent financial services destination. It's how much of those sectors will be lost and what we'll replace them with. Our main USP for the last 40 years has essentially been the gateway to Europe for Asia and the US. I've yet to hear a convincing proposition from anyone to replace that, outside the notion of becoming some sort of super scale Singapore style tax haven.

 

[Halph n Halph]

Ah the Minford argument, it (manufacturing) was all going anyway may as well take a shovel to it's head straight way.

That's not really what I was trying to say.
Its just, remaining within the union offers no guarantee, but certainly offers manufacturing jobs a fighting chance.
There can be no denial that there are countries within the bloc that would be attractive to global corps looking to reduce cost and increase profit.

 

[BKK]

The problem isn't so much is whether all the car manufacturers will move or whether London will still be the pre-eminent financial services destination. It's how much of those sectors will be lost and what we'll replace them with. Our main USP for the last 40 years has essentially been the gateway to Europe for Asia and the US. I've yet to hear a convincing proposition from anyone to replace that, outside the notion of becoming some sort of super scale Singapore style tax haven.

Right, this is the sensible debate "how much". Personally I think "not so much", but it will differ depending on industry "winners and losers". we'll see in the coming years and decades, but can still comment on the data released in the mean time.

 

[BKK]

The problem isn't so much is whether all the car manufacturers will move or whether London will still be the pre-eminent financial services destination. It's how much of those sectors will be lost and what we'll replace them with. Our main USP for the last 40 years has essentially been the gateway to Europe for Asia and the US. I've yet to hear a convincing proposition from anyone to replace that, outside the notion of becoming some sort of super scale Singapore style tax haven.

Oh, and "Singapore tax haven" won't work for UK. UK has an advantage in terms of "rule of law". International companies know where they lie with regards to rule of law, they're well protected. You don't get unexpected stuff like the EU Apple ruling, or from individual governments making it up as they go along.

 

[cabot]

Meanwhile, in dreamland...

I've also seen Sturgeon seems to have softened her eagerness for an independence referendum, now saying that's a consideration if Scotland are brought out of the single market instead of the Brexit vote itself. She was always a realist (which was comforting when she was deputy to pie in the sky Salmond) and from her comments she must be well aware that general desire for another ref right now is not very high.

 

[BKK]

Meanwhile, in dreamland...

I've also seen Sturgeon seems to have softened her eagerness for an independence referendum, now saying that's a consideration if Scotland are brought out of the single market instead of the Brexit vote itself. She was always a realist (which was comforting when she was deputy to pie in the sky Salmond) and from her comments she must be well aware that general desire for another ref right now is not very high.

Right winger gets a column in right wing paper, what's your "dreamland" point.

As for Indy Ref 2, polls are putting it at the same as before "Brexit", which is why Sturgeon has kicked the can down the street, Oil prices are low, they can't win the economic argument. Their best option is post-brexit melt-down, but that doesn't look likely either.

 

[cabot]

Right winger gets a column in right wing paper, what's your "dreamland" point.

As for Indy Ref 2, polls are putting it at the same as before "Brexit", which is why Sturgeon has kicked the can down the street, Oil prices are low, they can't win the economic argument. Their best option is post-brexit melt-down, but that doesn't look likely either.

politicians getting too close to journalism and vice versa, its something that needs to stop.

Thankfully I don't see Sturgeon trying to play this as a stunt to force a referendum, which from your post you seem to hint at. I honestly believe she's trying to make the best of a situation instead. I don't feel the same way about the UK government yet (regarding working for the best interests of the country).

I thought I was supposed to be the cynical one as someone who voted remain.


Jezza is talking about renewable energy in the leadership campaign. Bless him.

 

[BKK]

politicians getting too close to journalism, its something that needs to stop.

Thankfully I don't see Sturgeon trying to play this as a stunt to force a referendum, which from your post you seem to hint at. I honestly believe she's trying to make the best of a situation instead. I don't feel the same way about the UK government yet (regarding working for the best interests of the country).

I thought I was supposed to be the cynical one as someone who voted remain.

Oh please, you don't have to be a cynic to see what Sturgeon has done. If you're not cynical of all politicians (regardless of which way you lean) then you're being taken for a ride.

 

[kmag]

Oh, and "Singapore tax haven" won't work for UK. UK has an advantage in terms of "rule of law". International companies know where they lie with regards to rule of law, they're well protected. You don't get unexpected stuff like the EU Apple ruling, or from individual governments making it up as they go along.

Personally I think they'll take the opportunity to sell to 400m over the UK's completely overstated "rule of law" given than the EU isn't exactly the wild west. The notion that you don't get cases analogous to the EU/Apple instance is pretty naive, tell that to any company operating an EBT.

I'm not asking you to provide an answer how we replace the 'not very much' (which I personally think will be a lot especially in the increasingly likely case of a hard brexit, and I'm backed by pretty much every mainstream economist) but there doesn't seem to be a viable model for easily replacing the loss of activity. A single country overdependent on services forging FTA's (after replacing 53 of them along with an additional 86 MRA's) in the face of an increasingly protectionist large bloc dominated trade environment just doesn't seem particularly sensible.

 

[BKK]

Personally I think they'll take the opportunity to sell to 400m over the UK's completely overstated "rule of law" give than the EU isn't exactly the wild west. The notion that you don't get cases analogous to the EU/Apple instance is pretty naive, tell that to any company operating an EBT.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I'm happy to debate, but here I'll have to admit that we have completely different opinions. I'm not sure that there is any metric where we can say who was right or wrong on this point, but if you have one, I'm happy to debate.

 

[jufonuk]

Personally I think they'll take the opportunity to sell to 400m over the UK's completely overstated "rule of law" given than the EU isn't exactly the wild west. The notion that you don't get cases analogous to the EU/Apple instance is pretty naive, tell that to any company operating an EBT.

I'm not asking you to provide an answer how we replace the 'not very much' (which I personally think will be a lot especially in the increasingly likely case of a hard brexit, and I'm backed by pretty much every mainstream economist) but there doesn't seem to be a viable model for the loss of activity. A single country overdependent on services forging FTA's (after replacing 53 of them along with an additional 86 MRA's) in the face of an increasingly protectionist large bloc dominated trade environment just doesn't seem particularly sensible.

yeah but we're great so it will work, because. bulldog spirit and all that!!! (I'm joking btw) I think the actual issue of the UK losing out so much will make the politicians not choose a hard brexit but a weird sort of "leave" where we have left in name only. but still work with and trade with the EU and the rest of the world.