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[Tak3n]

Essentially. We're leaving EU membership, that much is clear, barring a huge change in public opinion which is not gonna happen. I may dislike that, but that's whats happening. However, to claim that the referendum gives the cabinet carte blanche to do whatever they like without involving our elected representatives is crazy.

We're leaving the EU, fine. But let Parliament work out how we can do that in a way thats best for the country, rather than allow the cabinet do whatever they like and hide behind some "will of the people" smoke and mirrors.




The decision to leave the single market should be made by Parliament though. Membership of the single market wasn't on the ballot paper, and plenty of pro-leave leaflets (at least the ones I received) touted Norway as a great example of where we could be

I can see both sides, so as I said it looks likely it will come down to the supreme court ruling.... what I do know is they should not even really start until this is sorted as I see no point in triggering article 50, spending 2+ years negotiating and then parliament rejecting the deal... it would be hugely damaging for all including the EU

 

[tuxfool]

Another victim of Brexit and the exchange rate.

A friend was telling me that touchscreens they use are from from Italy. They use a UK distributor to sell them around Europe and to my friends business. They received a call saying the price is going up in the New Year. They rejected this idea because why should they be charged more for the privilege of coming in through the UK. They are dropping this distributor for one in France.

How does that work. The whole reason that prices are going up is because of the exchange rate. Getting them from France doesn't change anything, unless I'm missing something?

 

[Bony Manifesto]

The decision to leave the single market should be made by Parliament though. Membership of the single market wasn't on the ballot paper, and plenty of pro-leave leaflets (at least the ones I received) touted Norway as a great example of where we could be

I think you've got that the wrong way round. Once we leave the EU, the default state (if we didn't come to any agreement during the Article 50 period) would be to lose access to the single market.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I think you've got that the wrong way round. Once we leave the EU, the default state (if we didn't come to any agreement during the Article 50 period) would be to lose access to the single market.

He's saying that one of the arguments used by the Leave camp was the possibility of a Norway-esque relationship with the EU, which means there wasn't some clear, singular end result on access to the single market assumed in voting to Leave - thus that must be subject to scrutiny.

 

[Tak3n]

here is the amendment

The government has tabled an amendment, which would accept the words of Labour's motion calling for Parliament to be consulted before the Brexit process begins, but adds the following words to the end:

...and believes that the process should be undertaken in such a way that respects the decision of the people of the UK when they voted to leave the EU on 23 June and does not undermine the negotiating position of the government as negotiations are entered into which will take place after Article 50 has been triggered."

 

[Dougald]

I can see both sides, so as I said it looks likely it will come down to the supreme court ruling.... what I do know is they should not even really start until this is sorted as I see no point in triggering article 50, spending 2+ years negotiating and then parliament rejecting the deal... it would be hugely damaging for all including the EU

Parliament really ought to hash out what they actually want before Article 50, agreed. Too much pressure to "get on with it" from the press isn't helping

What I really don't want to see is a government running on a very different manifesto than the one which was elected bypass our own elected representatives to do whatever it likes with a decision which will probably define this country for the next century.

I think you've got that the wrong way round. Once we leave the EU, the default state (if we didn't come to any agreement during the Article 50 period) would be to lose access to the single market.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

 

[nekkid]

Essentially. We're leaving EU membership, that much is clear, barring a huge change in public opinion which is not gonna happen. I may dislike that, but that's whats happening. However, to claim that the referendum gives the cabinet carte blanche to do whatever they like without involving our elected representatives is crazy.

This is what's infuriating. I actually feel like opinions have only solidified since the vote, in stubborn defiance of "naysayers" and "experts", rather than logic.

In retrospect I can forgive a lot of Leavers for voting the way they did, simply because of manipulation and confusion from both sides. But to convert to staunch supporters having seen what even a hint of leaving the EU can do, it's just fucking moronic.

That said, I wonder if public opinion is swaying, and that's why certain rags feel the need to force the subject so aggressively recently.

 

[Tak3n]

just in

Theresa May's decision to allow Tory MPs to back a Labour call for Parliament to be able to "properly scrutinise" her Brexit strategy does not go far enough, say lawyers about to challenge the prime minister in the courts.

The country's top judges will be asked to rule that the government cannot lawfully trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to leave the European Union without Parliament having "the ultimate say".

Mrs May has tabled an amendment which will allow Tories to back the text of Labour's motion in a Commons debate calling for MPs to be given proper scrutiny before Article 50 is triggered.

But scrutiny is not enough and the amendment is "meaningless window dressing", says a solicitor in one of the legal teams in the Brexit case to be heard by London's High Court on Thursday.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Ken Clarke taking his own party apart.

 

[nekkid]

just in

The PM won't lose that case. She's got £350m a week to spend on lawyers.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The PM won't lose that case. She's got £350m a week to spend on lawyers.

That actually does make me wonder; how long is a case like that expected to last?

 

[Dougald]

Ken Clarke taking his own party apart.

Dude is taking the words right out of my mouth (and putting it very much better than I would)

 

[nekkid]

That actually does make me wonder; how long is a case like that expected to last?

Years, hopefully.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

That once Article 50 has been invoked, the default state is the hardest of hard Brexits. Having Parliament vote on leaving the single market will be irrelevant because whether they vote for or against it, the result will be the same: we'll leave the single market.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

The PM won't lose that case. She's got £350m a week to spend on lawyers.

The head government lawyer, Jeremy Wright QC, who May has put on the case as lead barrister is only a QC because he was made Attorney General, rather than due to talent.

He's actually an incredibly average lawyer whose experience is mostly in the Birmingham criminal circuit.

He's up against the best constitutional barristers in the country, possibly even the world.

The Parliamentarians – if we may so describe them – are led in the courts by Baron David Pannick QC, Fellow of All Souls and Hertford Colleges Oxford, Master of the Inner Temple, a veteran of hundreds of cases in the House of Lords, the UK Supreme Court and the Privy Council (where he has often represented the Crown), to say nothing of dozens in the European Court of Human Rights, the European Court of Justice, and foreign courts from Brunei to the Virgin Islands. In short he is a Titan amongst advocates, a living legend of the Bar, one of the cleverest men in England, and also - rather ominously for the Royalists – one of the most persuasive. Had he not already been instructed by the Parliamentarians he would have been an obvious choice to represent the Crown in this very litigation.

And though Lord Pannick represents the leading litigant, a huge, shimmering supporting cast of silks, all highly regarded, act for others. Indeed at July's preliminary hearing, so great was what Lord Leveson described, unimaginatively but accurately, as the “bewildering array of legal talent” that he had to move the case into the largest court-room in the Royal Courts of Justice.

Read this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/in-its-battle-for-brexit-the-government-is-bringing-a-knife-to-t/

If I didn't know better the government seems like they're trying to actively lose this case.

 

[Dougald]

That once Article 50 has been invoked, the default state is the hardest of hard Brexits. Having Parliament vote on leaving the single market will be irrelevant because whether they vote for or against it, the result will be the same: we'll leave the single market.

So your contention is that I'm wrong about the government having no mandate to negotiate any deal they like without involving our democratically elected representatives, because if they twiddle their thumbs for two years we'll leave the single market?

 

[Auctopus]

"not a hard or a soft Brexit, but a smart Brexit".
That spin is making me so dizzy I find it on par with the Democratic People's Republic of Korea as description of that country (North Korea).

"smart Brexit" is an oxymoron.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Conservatives are fighting amongst themselves. Beautiful.

 

[Lagamorph]

Conservatives are fighting amongst themselves. Beautiful.

And yet they're still more unified than the Labour party.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

And yet they're still more unified than the Labour party.

The right usually are. Something about principles vs winning.

 

[Audioboxer]

Conservatives are fighting amongst themselves. Beautiful.

And yet they're still more unified than the Labour party.

This is what is sad. It almost doesn't matter what mess the Tories could become, they'll still be deemed better than current Labour and win any general election for the foreseeable future.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

So your contention is that I'm wrong about the government having no mandate to negotiate any deal they like without involving our democratically elected representatives, because if they twiddle their thumbs for two years we'll leave the single market?

Pretty much. Once Article 50 is invoked, hard Brexiteers get exactly what they want if they do nothing. They'll make a show of 'trying to get the best' deal and all that, but ultimately their aim will be to fail.

Honestly, I think it would take a miracle for us to have anything other than a hard Brexit. A soft Brexit is reliant on talks with the EU going inconceivably smoothly (which, even if that did appear to be happening, there would be a lot of parties out there who would look to sabotage them).

 

[travisbickle]

The right usually are. Something about principles vs winning.

They have no principles. The Tories are a political party without any political thought. Theres a Peter Hitchens story of him lasting 5 minutes as a member because the whole party have nothing to talk about regarding political theory.

 

[KingSnake]

Good news for exporters:

Pound slumps to 168-year low

According to a trade-weighted index measuring sterling against a basket of its trading peers, the pound has now slumped to its lowest on record, stretching beyond the introduction of free-floating exchange rates in the 1970s and all the way back to the mid-1800s, according to data compiled by the Bank of England.

The pound’s effective exchange rate, which is weighted to reflect the UK’s trade flows, hit a low of 73.38 on Tuesday – weaker than the depths hit during the financial crisis, Britain’s ejection from the European Rate Mechanism in 1992, and its decision to leave the Gold Standard in the 1930s.

Someone please clap the Financial Time "specialists" in the Tower of London.

 

[sohois]

The head government lawyer, Jeremy Wright QC, who May has put on the case as lead barrister is only a QC because he was made Attorney General, rather than due to talent.

He's actually an incredibly average lawyer whose experience is mostly in the Birmingham criminal circuit.

He's up against the best constitutional barristers in the country, possibly even the world.

Read this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/in-its-battle-for-brexit-the-government-is-bringing-a-knife-to-t/

If I didn't know better the government seems like they're trying to actively lose this case.

Master of the Inner Temple.

That's some RPG shit right there. May and her party better grind to hell and back

 

[Izuna]

but if the pound gets so bad, they can't buy the parts they need to make their exports

 

[OverBlood 3]

The Tories really are running on their b team. Even Nicky Morgan is taking the party to task.

To be fair to her she's absolutely correct and doing a good job to scrutinise the government

 

[Audioboxer]

Good news for exporters:

Pound slumps to 168-year low



Someone please clap the Financial Time "specialists" in the Tower of London.

Its such a 1st world problem but this exchange rate is killing me on importing vinyls from the states. Pretty much stopped buying them.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

but if the pound gets so bad, they can't buy the parts they need to make their exports

We're going to build the biggest, most bigly and best factories in the world. We're going to take on China.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Its such a 1st world problem but this exchange rate is killing me on importing vinyls from the states. Pretty much stopped buying them.

Weirdly I used to import all my vinyl from the US too. It was pretty much half the cost. I stopped buying it because I wasn't even listening to it in the end.

 

[Maledict]

We're going to build the biggest, most bigly and best factories in the world. We're going to take on China.

I think you'll find it's pronounced Gina.

 

[Izuna]

When I buy digital games, I buy them from the UK marketplace, not the US one anymore.

Up until the prices increase, of course

 

[Audioboxer]

Weirdly I used to import all my vinyl from the US too. It was pretty much half the cost. I stopped buying it because I wasn't even listening to it in the end.

Yeah cost reasons, but availability too. Some stuff just doesn't make it to the UK. I listen to most, but I do just collect as well for artwork and designs I like.

 

[OverBlood 3]

After Ken Clarke, Nicky Morgan and now Anna Soubry have told their own party to eff off in this debate they look far more divided than ever. Important though.

 

[Tak3n]

The Tories really are running on their b team. Even Nicky Morgan is taking the party to task.

To be fair to her she's absolutely correct and doing a good job to scrutinise the government

And if she had not lost her job, she would be saying the complete opposite, don't fool yourself

 

[OverBlood 3]

And if she had not lost her job, she would be saying the complete opposite, don't fool yourself

It's the first time I ever saw her speak passionately and honestly. It's irrelevant they don't agree with the governments own stance.

 

[Dougald]

Pretty much. Once Article 50 is invoked, hard Brexiteers get exactly what they want if they do nothing. They'll make a show of 'trying to get the best' deal and all that, but ultimately their aim will be to fail.

Honestly, I think it would take a miracle for us to have anything other than a hard Brexit. A soft Brexit is reliant on talks with the EU going inconceivably smoothly (which, even if that did appear to be happening, there would be a lot of parties out there who would look to sabotage them).

I still don't know what this has to do my original post regarding the right of parliament to be involved in the future of this country as you seem to be talking about the chances of what's most likely to happen, but I think we'll just go round in circles if I make any more posts

 

[DiGiKerot]

Its such a 1st world problem but this exchange rate is killing me on importing vinyls from the states. Pretty much stopped buying them.

It's killing me on anime goods as well, as the pound looks to be fairing even worse against the yen as it is against the dollar.

Guess it's going to be good for my savings account, but I'm really having to reassess my ongoing cartoon idol CD purchases.

 

[Sparse]

It's fine everyone, the pound's been overvalued for 168 years! Isn't that right, Daily Mail?

 

[ss1]

Here we go:

Exhibit A: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-expect-price-rises-after-steep-fall-in-pound

Exhibit B: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-price-row-supplier-supermarket-falling-pound

Looks like price rise are inbound now as a wonderful Christmas gift for all of us on this Brexit merry-go-round.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Wonder if the poor who overwhelmingly voted for brexit will change their minds now that their pockets have been hit.

 

[DiGiKerot]

Here we go:

Exhibit A: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-expect-price-rises-after-steep-fall-in-pound

Exhibit B: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-price-row-supplier-supermarket-falling-pound

Looks like price rise are inbound now as a wonderful Christmas gift for all of us on this Brexit merry-go-round.

What, they want to put the price of Pot Noodles up? Will the public stand for such a thing?!!?

 

[Pankratous]

Wonder if the poor who overwhelmingly voted for brexit will change their minds now that their pockets have been hit.

A lot of them won't realise it was because of their vote. They didn't think it through before and they won't now.

"Damn supermarkets putting prices up suddenly for absolutely no reason whatsoever!"

 

[Izuna]

Huh...

I thought Maintenance Grants were discontinued for higher Loans (Student Finance)

Seems that switching Uni doesn't mean the new rules apply to me.

 

[Jex]

Here we go:

Exhibit A: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-expect-price-rises-after-steep-fall-in-pound

Exhibit B: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-price-row-supplier-supermarket-falling-pound

Looks like price rise are inbound now as a wonderful Christmas gift for all of us on this Brexit merry-go-round.

Yeah, I can't see the retailers winning this particular war with the suppliers. No way will they be able to absorb all the costs of the falling pound either, it will have to go to consumers.

 

[Plum]

Here we go:

Exhibit A: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-expect-price-rises-after-steep-fall-in-pound

Exhibit B: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-price-row-supplier-supermarket-falling-pound

Looks like price rise are inbound now as a wonderful Christmas gift for all of us on this Brexit merry-go-round.

Lets hope people see Brexit as a bad idea because of this...

Who am I fucking kidding. Of course they won't.

The most we have now is the schadenfreude from pissed off leave voters, shame we can't enjoy it as much as Americans can with Trump.

 

[FantasticMrSnake]

Lets hope people see Brexit as a bad idea because of this...

Who am I fucking kidding. Of course they won't.

The most we have now is the schadenfreude from pissed off leave voters, shame we can't enjoy it as much as Americans can with Trump.

Wait for Trump to win, and we can laugh about that

Spoiler

with a pound weaker than the dollar at that point

 

[Acorn]

Ken Clarke continues to be the only tory I'd consider voting for.

 

[norinrad]

Ken Clarke continues to be the only tory I'd consider voting for.

Weird, he's been there forever. All his pals have retired. wonder if he failed to secure a sweet deal for his retirement and continues to work. Nigel Lawson has a huge ass house in France living it up.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Lets hope people see Brexit as a bad idea because of this...

Who am I fucking kidding. Of course they won't.

The most we have now is the schadenfreude from pissed off leave voters, shame we can't enjoy it as much as Americans can with Trump.

The UK has a current account deficit taking up a nice chunk of GDP and the currency is correspondingly overvalued i.e. a trade balance problem. Why should the masses pay attention to meaningless information that wastes their time? I'm sure they have better things to do than assess success or failure erroneously based off the value of their country's currency.