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[affleck1981]

I'm English but my family heritage is deeply Scottish. I will be very sad if Scotland leaves the union as it is a part of me that I will lose a bit of touch with, but I will understand. Brexit is a disaster and is similarly taking away part of who I am. And I can't blame Scotland for wanting to bail from that mess.

I'm Scottish, living in England with my wife and kids. I said to old school friends when the first referendum happened that if it had gone for independence, I would feel that I had lost some part of my identity that I couldn't really explain. I don't want Scotland to leave the UK, but I completely get why they want out of this mess.

Hopefully, if it all comes to pass and they go out of the UK and into the EU, I'll be able to get myself and the kids EU passports.

 

[SteveWD40]

And don't forget Cardiff, Wales' capital voted majority remain too so we'd want in on that. The last question is do we use tunnels or sky-bridges to join them together? A nice rainbow road to connect Cardiff, London and Scotland. Tidy.

Manchester voted remain and you need our cultural swag, take us with.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Yeah guys, it's all Unilever's fault! >_>

I think it will be very damaging to the reputation of Unilever if they seek to use the fall in the pound to exploit the consumer. Clearly products which are not dependent upon imports into the United Kingdom will not be affected by the fall in the value of the pound. Consumers will switch to other products where companies aren't seeking to fleece the consumer.

http://stv.tv/news/uk/1369760-unilever-exploiting-customers-amid-tesco-price-row/

Yeah let's just ignore the part where the pound is bloody worth less, eh?

 

[Dougald]

The main problem with Scotland leaving the union is they would take the only effective opposition party with them

Yeah guys, it's all Unilever's fault! >_>

http://stv.tv/news/uk/1369760-unilever-exploiting-customers-amid-tesco-price-row/

How dare a business not want to sell goods at a loss

 

[Audioboxer]

Manchester voted remain and you need our cultural swag, take us with.

I can get behind that. I supported my man Fergie at United, and while I know United are rather well hated, they're my saviour from Scottish football which is absolutely dire. I'm ashamed of football up here and our national team lol. I know Man Utd are a bit a joke right now but I welcome Manchester to our EU family.

The main problem with Scotland leaving the union is they would take the only effective opposition party with them




How dare a business not want to sell goods at a loss

Reality is they are such a small number at 56. Labour really really really needs to sort itself out. The dream team would be a Labour and SNP coalition to attack the Tories. Heck I'd even wish the Lib Dems came back.

It's a sad state of affair to look at Labour and Lib Dems right now.

 

[D4Danger]

I'm sure the prices would fall if the pound improved, right? c'mon you can see it's opportunistic price gouging. Obviously Tesco aren't buying it either.

 

[Beefy]

I'm sure the prices would fall if the pound improved, right? c'mon you can see it's opportunistic price gouging. Obviously Tesco aren't buying it either.

Will probably improve the price but decrease the size again.

 

[Chinner]

We're gonna build a wall around London and make Scotland pay for it

Don't be silly, this hyperbole of yours is making light of a serious situation. People will be losing jobs, losing loved ones and our young will lose opportunities. Our country will shrink and will suffer due to the small minded xenophobes. This is not something you joke about.

Anyway, we'd make foreigners pay for it.

 

[Audioboxer]

Don't be silly, this hyperbole of yours is making light of a serious situation. People will be losing jobs, losing loved ones and our young will lose opportunities. Our country will shrink and will suffer due to the small minded xenophobes. This is not something you joke about.

Anyway, we'd make foreigners pay for it.

Some Brits probably class the Scottish as foreigners bro

But anyway, we'd all be too drunk to build the wall straight and end up making a hash of it.

 

[Dougald]

I'm sure the prices would fall if the pound improved, right? c'mon you can see it's opportunistic price gouging. Obviously Tesco aren't buying it either.

If you make widgets and the price of the parts you buy to make them goes up 18% in 6 months, is it really gouging for you to have to increase the price you charge your customers?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Don't be silly, this hyperbole of yours is making light of a serious situation. People will be losing jobs, losing loved ones and our young will lose opportunities. Our country will shrink and will suffer due to the small minded xenophobes. This is not something you joke about.

Anyway, we'd make foreigners pay for it.

Let's contact the Roman Empire. They built the previous wall, they have experience.

 

[Morat]

Let's contact the Roman Empire. They built the previous wall, they have experience.

Or ancient China. Or the Soviet Union.

 

[Zyae]

So is this court ruling going to save the UK?

 

[RetroDLC]

So is this court ruling going to save the UK?

It depends if politicians can swallow their bitter pride and consider the union with Scotland more important than leaving the EU.

 

[spuckthew]

I'm actually more surprised it is ONLY 6%

Still tips the scales the other way by a bigger margin than the actual winning margin.

This whole thing is a disaster. If TM and co want to go through with it, then I hope the country burns.

I couldn't care less since I'm sodding off elsewhere with my US/EU girlfriend sooner than later anyway (which isn't a knee-jerk reaction for the record - it was always our plan before DC even came up with the idea).

 

[CTLance]

Or ancient China. Or the Soviet Union.

We Germans had the best wall. Automated guns, mines, barbed wire, all the good stuff. Kept traitors in and criminal scum out. Good old German quality stuff.

However, if you REALLY want the best bang for your buck, wall-wise, then nothing gets past North Korea.

 

[sammex]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/10/daily-chart-6

6% of leavers regret their vote according to the Economist. Will never understand why you would vote leave for the lolz if this is correct

This is the worst part. How do you even fix something like that?

 

[FlammableD]

The referendum stuff is kind of moot anyway:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/786519188227534848?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Downing Street on Nicola Sturgeon's #indyref2 call: "This issue was addressed in 2014. We should be focusing on working together as the UK."

As always, Westminster will just ignore the jocks.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

"This issue was addressed in 2014. We should be focusing on working together as the UK."

 

[Audioboxer]

The referendum stuff is kind of moot anyway:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/786519188227534848?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Downing Street on Nicola Sturgeon's #indyref2 call: "This issue was addressed in 2014. We should be focusing on working together as the UK."

As always, Westminster will just ignore the jocks.

I hope they do realize such dismissive attitudes are one of the main reasons the political divide between North and South is becoming a crater. I mean they couldn't even toss a bone of empathy towards saying they understand 62% voted remain, but they'd LIKE to focus on working together now.

Ironically the 2014 ref was largely based around the EU...

 

[Wrestlemania]

The referendum stuff is kind of moot anyway:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/786519188227534848?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Downing Street on Nicola Sturgeon's #indyref2 call: "This issue was addressed in 2014. We should be focusing on working together as the UK."

As always, Westminster will just ignore the jocks.

Imagine if someone in 2001 said "Why are we having another general election? This was settled in 1997 when Labour won by a landslide".

 

[D4Danger]

The referendum stuff is kind of moot anyway:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/786519188227534848?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Downing Street on Nicola Sturgeon's #indyref2 call: "This issue was addressed in 2014. We should be focusing on working together as the UK."

As always, Westminster will just ignore the jocks.

even if they disagree just flippantly brushing the SNP aside like this is a bad move.

They smarter comeback would've been to ask them what they plan to do about all the unanswered questions from the first indyref. If the SNP have those answers now then great but I don't think they do yet.

 

[Shantom]

This is the worst part. How do you even fix something like that?

By not asking a leading question ('wisdom' vs 'opinion'), for a start.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Well I gathered you weren't Scottish or at the very least must be a leave voter. I don't know how this hurts Scotland given that most of our country wants to stay in the EU and most certainly does not want a hard Brexit.

Amazingly, you're wrong again. I voted Remain.

I feel like you don't pay attention in the slightest, though, so it isn't surprising me. I've had the conversation with you at least once before where I point out that the harder the Brexit, the more difficult indyScot EU accession is. The rUK is two-thirds of Scottish imports and exports. If the rUK stays in the single market and indyScotland joins the EU, they can trade freely, no problems. If rUK leaves the single market and indyScotland joins the EU, indyScotland's economy is fucked. No exaggeration; just plain fucked, for exactly the same reason as Brexit is a bad idea - you end up with tariffs on your largest foreign market.

That means it is hugely in Scotland's interests, independent or not, to make Brexit as soft as possible. That means building bridges with English, Welsh and Irish Remain allies; not immediately jumping to independence discussions, which need to happen *after* we know what the political result of Brexit is.

But, as usual, anything you don't understand must come from a Leave voter or an evil Englishman. It's really tedious; the exact sort of small-mindedness that would have made you a Brexit voter had you been born elsewhere.

 

[StayDead]

Trouble with building a new wall in the UK is they'll have to leave people sized gaps so Dale Winton can get some work screaming BRING ON THE WALL! as people try and hop through.

 

[Audioboxer]

Amazingly, you're wrong again. I voted Remain.

I feel like you don't pay attention in the slightest, though, so it isn't surprising me. I've had the conversation with you at least once before where I point out that the harder the Brexit, the more difficult indyScot EU accession is. The rUK is two-thirds of Scottish imports and exports. If the rUK stays in the single market and indyScotland joins the EU, they can trade freely, no problems. If rUK leaves the single market and indyScotland joins the EU, indyScotland's economy is fucked. No exaggeration; just plain fucked, for exactly the same reason as Brexit is a bad idea - you end up with tariffs on your largest foreign market.

That means it is hugely in Scotland's interests, independent or not, to make Brexit as soft as possible. That means building bridges with English, Welsh and Irish Remain allies; not immediately jumping to independence discussions, which need to happen *after* we know what the political result of Brexit is.

But, as usual, anything you don't understand must come from a Leave voter or an evil Englishman. It's really tedious; the exact sort of small-mindedness that would have made you a Brexit voter had you been born elsewhere.

Notice the "or". I didn't say you were a leave voter, just my feelings you weren't Scottish OR were a leave voter.

I do agree Scotland and our MPs have a duty to make Brexit as soft as possible, but the reality is even at that we still need to leave the EU. That is what the problem is. We have an elected government who don't want to leave the EU and a majority vote from the people to back it up.

 

[Des0lar]

By not asking a leading question ('wisdom' vs 'opinion'), for a start.

If they would have used "wisdom" both times, would you really expect a difference?

We've had enough of experts!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

 

[nekkid]

To be fair, while it feels like the right time for Scotland to discuss independence again, it feels like he wrong time to impose a second independence referendum - as we have seen, it's not the sort of decision you want to make during a period of heavily reactionary opinions.

 

[JonathanEx]

Trouble with building a new wall in the UK is they'll have to leave people sized gaps so Dale Winton can get some work screaming BRING ON THE WALL! as people try and hop through.

Well maybe this is how we finance it. Like the Crystal Maze experience, we just monetize the Hole In The Wall border controls as a fun day out experience.

 

[Audioboxer]

To be fair, while it feels like the right time for Scotland to discuss independence again, it feels like he wrong time to impose a second independence referendum - as we have seen, it's not the sort of decision you want to make during a period of heavily reactionary opinions.

Impose?

How is producing a draft bill for consultation imposing anything? It's not even going for vote in front of Holyrood. It is literally a draft.

 

[D4Danger]

To be fair, while it feels like the right time for Scotland to discuss independence again, it feels like he wrong time to impose a second independence referendum - as we have seen, it's not the sort of decision you want to make during a period of heavily reactionary opinions.

that's what they're banking on.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Notice the "or". I didn't say you were a leave voter, just my feelings you weren't Scottish OR were a leave voter.

I do agree Scotland and our MPs have a duty to make Brexit as soft as possible, but the reality is even at that we still need to leave the EU. That is what the problem is. We have an elected government who don't want to leave the EU and a majority vote from the people to back it up.

If you agree that all politicians whose interests are Scotland-focused have a duty to make Brexit as soft as possible, I can't understand why you think talking about this now is a good idea. The SNP only has so much political capital to negotiate with. Wasting it on another referendum makes forging allies with pro-Remain but also pro-Union rUK MPs so much harder. Was it really so difficult to delay this announcement the measily two years that Article 50 negotiations last? It's cack-handed timing, pure and simple, and it surprises me of Sturgeon. I always had her down as a much more shrewd operator.

 

[Hazzuh]

Amazingly, you're wrong again. I voted Remain.

I feel like you don't pay attention in the slightest, though, so it isn't surprising me. I've had the conversation with you at least once before where I point out that the harder the Brexit, the more difficult indyScot EU accession is. The rUK is two-thirds of Scottish imports and exports. If the rUK stays in the single market and indyScotland joins the EU, they can trade freely, no problems. If rUK leaves the single market and indyScotland joins the EU, indyScotland's economy is fucked. No exaggeration; just plain fucked, for exactly the same reason as Brexit is a bad idea - you end up with tariffs on your largest foreign market.

That means it is hugely in Scotland's interests, independent or not, to make Brexit as soft as possible. That means building bridges with English, Welsh and Irish Remain allies; not immediately jumping to independence discussions, which need to happen *after* we know what the political result of Brexit is.

But, as usual, anything you don't understand must come from a Leave voter or an evil Englishman. It's really tedious; the exact sort of small-mindedness that would have made you a Brexit voter had you been born elsewhere.

The EU referendum and the Scottish indy referendum seem to me to be so similar that it is surprising how often the same people come down on different sides of the two questions. "Sovereignty" vs risk of leaving a political and economic union, honestly don't see much difference between them outside of the obvious difference of the tone of each campaign (which doesn't strike me as a legitimate reason for changing position tbh).

 

[Audioboxer]

If you agree that all politicians whose interests are Scotland-focused have a duty to make Brexit as soft as possible, I can't understand why you think talking about this now is a good idea. The SNP only has so much political capital to negotiate with. Wasting it on another referendum makes forging allies with pro-Remain but also pro-Union rUK MPs so much harder. Was it really so difficult to delay this announcement the measily two years that Article 50 negotiations last? It's cack-handed timing, pure and simple, and it surprises me of Sturgeon. I always had her down as a much more shrewd operator.

The only people it seems to be largely annoying are those not part of the country that voted in favour of remain?

It's their annual party conference and this announcement got the largest cheer and standing ovation. Why? Because like it or not it's fucking obvious our EU chances are going to come down to this. Plus as you said we only have 56 MPs in London, even when the SNP vote in unison it largely "doesn't count". The Brexit Bill no matter how harsh it is is probably going to pass with flying colours, just like Trident did, and pretty much anything the Tories put forward.

I would rather we start Scotland's provisional planning as soon as possible. In an arrogant way I don't really care about people's feelings outside of Scotland to demand we start planning later. Brexit has proven waiting to plan is a fucking trainwreck.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I mean, to be blunt, I think anyone who'd want indyScot to join the EU in the hard Brexit timeline is pretty mad. Why would you invite that much economic damage on yourself? Like, I understand the argument for indyScot - we'll be poorer but we'll rule ourselves. It's the basic idea of nationalism and the nation state vs. cosmopolitanism; if you hold that value, go for it.

I don't understand the argument for indyScot joining the EU. rUK would almost certainly offer a single market to indyScot. So Scotland spurning that to join the EU is making yourself poorer for... what, exactly? What reason? It's not even nationalism anymore because the whole point of the EU is that right is a supranational institution.

 

[nekkid]

Impose?

How is producing a draft bill for consultation imposing anything? It's not even going for vote in front of Holyrood. It is literally a draft.

Ok, could have used better wording. Chill.

 

[Audioboxer]

I mean, to be blunt, I think anyone who'd want indyScot to join the EU in the hard Brexit timeline is pretty mad. Why would you invite that much economic damage on yourself? Like, I understand the argument for indyScot - we'll be poorer but we'll rule ourselves. It's the basic idea of nationalism and the nation state vs. cosmopolitanism; if you hold that value, go for it.

I don't understand the argument for indyScot joining the EU. rUK would almost certainly offer a single market to indyScot. So Scotland spurning that to join the EU is making yourself poorer for... what, exactly? What reason? It's not even nationalism anymore because the whole point of the EU is that right is a supranational institution.

I know this isn't going to convince you but I'll just say the party campaigning to stay in the EU doesn't necessarily believe Scotland will be "poorer". That trickles through to voters. It's just not seen as some stay in the UK be rich, go independent be poor argument. I mean, have you seen the UK economy and the things the Tories spend money on? People are sick of that, and therefore feel full fiscal autonomy will actually create a better Scotland.

Ok, could have used better wording. Chill.

No problem. It is important though as no one is imposing anything and quite a few people are misunderstanding what a draft is today by cocking the gun to fire off that indyref2 seems to be starting "tomorrow". Things are just being planned and open communication about those plans is better than staying silent like May does around Brexit plans.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I know this isn't going to convince you but I'll just say the party campaigning to stay in the EU doesn't necessarily believe Scotland will be "poorer". That trickles through to voters. It's just not seen as some stay in the UK be rich, go independent be poor argument. I mean, have you seen the UK economy and the things the Tories spend money on? People are sick of that, and therefore feel full fiscal autonomy will actually create a better Scotland.

No, you're not listening. Ignore the Tories for a moment. Suppose the year is 2019, we had hardBrexit, and Scotland has just voted for independence. You are President of the new Scotland. You have two options: sign a single market agreement with rUK, or join the EU. You can't have both. Which do you pick?

Hint: it's not the EU.

Again, let me stress: I am *not* arguing against indyScot. I am arguing specifically that indyScot joining the EU would be a terrible idea, and therefore that anyone voting for indyScot *specifically* to stay in the EU is making a mistake.

 

[Audioboxer]

No, you're not listening. Ignore the Tories for a moment. Suppose the year is 2019, we had hardBrexit, and Scotland has just voted for independence. You are President of the new Scotland. You have two options: sign a single market agreement with rUK, or join the EU. You can't have both. Which do you pick?

Hint: it's not the EU.

Again, let me stress: I am *not* arguing against indyScot. I am arguing specifically that indyScot joining the EU would be a terrible idea, and therefore that anyone voting for indyScot *specifically* to stay in the EU is making a mistake.

I don't honestly think that will become a reality though. Even if you want me to play ball with your hypothetical I honestly wouldn't accept feeling bullied by the rest of the UK to play hard ball by its supposed trade agreement. I guess I'd have to say take the hit and put the onus on whatever Government Scotland elects as an independent nation to make up the finances by finding new trade partners in the EU, and around the globe.

I reject any proposal by the UK to try and fuck Scotland by being petty and bitter over us going independent. That isn't good business by the UK to do that either.

So yeah, I'd say no, fuck the UK they can wallow in their own superiority complex and we, the Scots, will have to go and work our hardest to forge new trade relationships.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I don't honestly think that will become a reality though. Even if you want me to play ball with your hypothetical I honestly wouldn't accept feeling bullied by the rest of the UK to play hard ball by it's supposed trade agreement. I guess I'd have to say take the hit and put the onus on whatever Government Scotland elects as an independent nation to make up the finances by finding new trade partners in the EU, and around the globe.

What don't you think will become a reality? Hard Brexit? Or independent Scotland? Because those are the only assumptions I have given you.

And as for your second part... you really are a Little Scotlander. You're using the word bullied and playing hard ball to excuse the fact you're taking the economically terrible option because of some woefully misplaced sentiment of how much other countries will want to deal with you. Like, look at yourself in the mirror. That sentence came right out the mouth of the Daily Mail, if you change "UK" to "EU".

The reason you can't have both isn't because the rUK will only give you the trade agreement if you don't join the EU, as you seem to have assumed. It's because, as we should all know by now, EU members can't have unilateral trade deals with non-EU members.

There's only one person with a superiority complex here.

 

[Audioboxer]

What don't you think will become a reality? Hard Brexit? Or independent Scotland? Because those are the only assumptions I have given you.

And as for your second part... you really are a Little Scotlander. You're using the word bullied and playing hard ball to excuse the fact you're taking the economically terrible option because of some woefully misplaced sentiment of how much other countries will want to deal with you.

The reason you can't have both isn't because the rUK will only give you the trade agreement if you don't join the EU, as you seem to have assumed. It's because, as we should all know by now, EU members can't have unilateral trade deals with non-EU members.

There's only one person with a superiority complex here.

An insane hard right Brexit where the UK acts like a petulant child and refuses to do trade with an independent Scotland without obtuse restrictions. I understand trade with the UK wouldn't be as is, but my impression was you were trying to get me to pick between an independent Scotland in the EU, and a trade deal you view as superior with the rest of the UK.

I still stand by if you want me to answer that I pick Scottish independence with membership in the EU and whatever we can forge with the rest of the UK. If it (rUK) becomes a petty and spiteful attempt at carrying on trade, then yes, we largely look elsewhere. That is a hypothetical chip I as an individual refuse to be held against our country as some bargaining effort to veer people away from independence. The EU was used as a bargaining chip and we are where we are.

As someone outside of Scotland you can continue to campaign in favour of the economic argument for us, but one thing I do hope this referendum (if it happens) is the Scottish people are a bit more insular to hash it out between ourselves rather than being so bothered with what people living in the rest of the UK tell us is best for us.

 

[Irminsul]

I still stand by if you want me to answer that I pick Scottish independence with membership in the EU and whatever we can forge with the rest of the UK. If it (rUK) becomes a petty and spiteful attempt at carrying on trade, then yes, we largely look elsewhere.

The thing is, with Scotland in the EU and rUK outside it, a single market between the two doesn't fail because of the UK, but because of the EU.

 

[Audioboxer]

The thing is, with Scotland in the EU and rUK outside it, a single market between the two doesn't fail because of the UK, but because of the EU.

I understand this, but depending on what Brexit deal the UK gets it will still be possible to do trade with the UK outside of the EU. Just not as is.

It's hypothetical right now and I still feel Crab was trying to put me in that corner to get a specific answer. I've been as straight as I can be with the information we currently have. It again ties back to why this indyref2 bill is merely a draft of a proposal. A lot has still to ride on more incoming details of just what the fuck Brexit is going to be. Something May is doing her best to seemingly cause to be a crapshoot of confusion.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

An insane hard right Brexit where the UK acts like a petulant child and refuses to do trade with an independent Scotland without obtuse restrictions. I understand trade with the UK wouldn't be as is, but my impression was you were trying to get me to pick between an independent Scotland in the EU, and a trade deal you view as superior with the rest of the UK.

I still stand by if you want me to answer that I pick Scottish independence with membership in the EU and whatever we can forge with the rest of the UK. If it (rUK) becomes a petty and spiteful attempt at carrying on trade, then yes, we largely look elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with being petty and spiteful.

Please, actually read my damn posts. If you're actually here to listen and talk with other posters, then do so, if you're not going to, stop wasting everyone's time.

Let's start all over again from the start.

1. As per the EU rules, no EU member state may have a trade deal with any non-EU member state. All trade deals must be between the EU as a whole and the other party.

2. Therefore, if indyScot joined the EU, indyScot *could not have* a trade deal with the rUK, other than what the rUK and the EU are willing to agree between them, which is almost nothing if hardBrexit happened. Let me stress again: this is not because the UK is playing hard ball. This is because of the rules of being an EU member state.

3. The rUK is a much more important market than the EU for Scotland. It accounts for over three times as much of Scotland's goods, for example. This will almost certainly always be the case, simply because of geography and language. For example, even Ireland is about evenly split between being UK-oriented and being EU-oriented and their links to the UK are much weaker than Scotland's links to the rUK would be.

4. Therefore, indyScot will be better off seeking a trade agreement with rUK and not joining the EU than it would joining the EU and not seeking a trade agreement with the UK.

5. Therefore, if you want what is best off for Scotland, and Scotland is independent, you would not chose for Scotland to join the EU.

6. Therefore, if you are planning to vote Yes to independence in an independence referendum because you think it represents a chance for Scotland to stay in the EU, you are mistaken.

As someone outside of Scotland you can continue to campaign in favour of the economic argument for us, but one thing I do hope this referendum (if it happens) is the Scottish people are a bit more insular to hash it out between ourselves rather than being so bothered with what people living in the rest of the UK tell us is best for us.

Mate, the above argument is true regardless of whether I'm Scottish or not. It doesn't suddenly leap up five levels in truthfulness because I was born in Dundee instead of Sydney or because I grew up in Aberdeen instead of Newport.

But fine, don't listen to someone who studied this and currently works in a related field just because they're not of your nationality. I'm just very surprised to see you agree with a Conservative policy!

 

[Theonik]

Why would anybody buy PG Tips when we have Yorkshire Tea?

Had a mate that sourced exclusively pg tips. To some people only cost matters

 

[Audioboxer]

It has nothing to do with being petty and spiteful.

Please, actually read my damn posts. If you're actually here to listen and talk with other posters, then do so, if you're not going to, stop wasting everyone's time.

Let's start all over again from the start.

1. As per the EU rules, no EU member state may have a trade deal with any non-EU member state. All trade deals must be between the EU as a whole and the other party.

2. Therefore, if indyScot joined the EU, indyScot *could not have* a trade deal with the rUK, other than what the rUK and the EU are willing to agree between them. Let me stress again: this is not because the UK is playing hard ball. This is because of the rules of being an EU member state.

3. The rUK is a much more important market than the EU for Scotland. It accounts for over three times as much of Scotland's goods, for example. This will almost certainly always be the case, simply because of geography and language. For example, even Ireland is about evenly split between being UK-oriented and being EU-oriented and their links to the UK are much weaker than Scotland's links to the rUK would be.

4. Therefore, indyScot will be better off seeking a trade agreement with rUK and not joining the EU than it would joining the EU and not seeking a trade agreement with the UK.

5. Therefore, if you want what is best off for Scotland, and Scotland is independent, you would not chose for Scotland to join the EU.

6. Therefore, if you are planning to vote Yes to independence in an independence referendum because you think it represents a chance for Scotland to stay in the EU, you are mistaken.



Mate, the above argument is true regardless of whether I'm Scottish or not. It doesn't suddenly leap up five levels in truthfulness because I was born in Dundee instead of Sydney or because I grew up in Aberdeen instead of Newport.

But fine, doesn't listen to someone who studied this and currently works in a related field just because they're not of your nationality. I'm just very surprised to see you agree with a Conservative policy!

I do understand all of that. My additions were a hypothetical of the UK doing or saying anything it doesn't need to in order to try and make Scotland's potential trade with it seem in more jeopardy than it really is. Why would they do this? Why does the Government do or say anything it does to dismiss Scotland at times? Politics are petty and the end game is protecting the Union. I know things will change, but remember it's the UK's choice to leave the EU, the EU isn't kicking the UK out and wanting to jeopardise current trade agreements.

5. Therefore, if you want what is best off for Scotland, and Scotland is independent, you would not chose for Scotland to join the EU.

6. Therefore, if you are planning to vote Yes to independence in an independence referendum because you think it represents a chance for Scotland to stay in the EU, you are mistaken.

If you say so, but the SNP are doing this precisely to try and honour the 62% of those who wanted to stay in the EU. So yeah your opinions, however educated aside, the vote will be happening primarily to protect EU interests.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The 62% wanted to stay in the EU given that at the point of the vote they were in the UK. It tells you absolutely nothing about what Scotland should do about the EU at the point they they are no longer in the UK.

You had EU interests when the United Kingdom was an EU member. If the United Kingdom is no longer an EU member, Scotland does not have EU interests. This is the entire point of what I am having to explain to you.

EDIT: And in response to your edit, in my scenario, the rUK is not threatening indyScotland. At all. They're literally offering a single market agreement with Scotland. How on *earth* is that bullying Scotland?

 

[Audioboxer]

The 62% wanted to stay in the EU given that at the point of the vote they were in the UK. It tells you absolutely nothing about what Scotland should do about the EU at the point they they are no longer in the UK.

You had EU interests when the United Kingdom was an EU member. If the United Kingdom is no longer an EU member, Scotland does not have EU interests. This is the entire point of what I am having to explain to you.

I really don't know what you are arguing now. Scotland has no EU interests? Says who, you?

EDIT: And in response to your edit, in my scenario, the rUK is not threatening indyScotland. At all. They're literally offering a single market agreement with Scotland. How on *earth* is that bullying Scotland?

Wait until a potential ref is on the table and see how BetterTogether 2.0 behaves. That is my speculation but, be prepared. That downing street tweet should give you an indication of how the UK will fight indyref2.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I really don't know what you are arguing now. Scotland has no EU interests? Says who, you?

Says literally any mildly competent economist. IF hardBrexit happens AND Scotland becomes independent THEN Scotland does not have interests in becoming an EU member. That was the conclusion of my 6 point argument above, which you said you didn't disagree with.

Now, IF softBrexit (UK still inside single market) happens AND Scotland becomes independent THEN Scotland joining the EU is a no-brainer decision; Scotland should obviously join. But that's entirely dependent on ensuring that softBrexit happens. Which is why I'm pointing out that even bringing up the referendum now is enormously hamfisted. It reduces the ability of the SNP to push for softBrexit by alienating English, Welsh and Irish potential political allies, which means that the scenario where Scotland will not join the EU is much more likely to happen. This makes the referendum case much more difficult for the SNP, because they can't promise EU membership without either having to admit it would be economically damaging or just straight up lying about it.

Hence why I said I'm surprised Sturgeon is doing this. I had her down as more canny than that.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I really don't know what you are arguing now. Scotland has no EU interests? Says who, you?

I think he's arguing that since the trade between the UK and Scotland are much more important then the trade between the EU and Scotland, if Scotland become independent their best economical move would be to seek a trade deal with the UK because that would be the option which cause the least amount of financial impact.

But since as an EU member you can't have an independent trade deal with a non EU member and the Hard Brexit stance will lead to the UK being outside the Free market, Scotland could not be in the EU and not significantly impact their trades relation with the UK for the worse.