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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM

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Maztorre

Member
The treasury report was based on a predicted immediate shock to the economy in the event of a leave vote, not in the event of leaving the EU the very next day. The idea that we can dismiss all good data because 'brexit hasn't actually happened yet' is a slight retelling of the referendum campaign. Hell, we were told that even the uncertainty of a referendum was dragging the economy down and yet we had 0.6 growth in Q2 which has actually been revised up today to 0.7.

The Nissan news is also welcome of course and hopefully counters some who have called Sunderland stupid for voting leave. Sounds like more jobs will be added as well with the production of the X-Trail moving over, excellent news.

Obviously the future is uncertain. There will be lots of ups and downs as the negotiations start but those saying the UK is going to be left a smoking pile of rubble are just not right. There is a lot to be optimistic about.

That's because David Cameron (remember him?) said article 50 would be triggered immediately after the referendum.

The UK's tax income being redirected to keep a previously productive and profitable Sunderland industry intact, after the population of that region voted to leave despite warnings about this exact consequence, and after the Tory party spent decades telling everyone how unproductive industry should be left to die, is nothing to be optimistic about. The Tories were free marketeers when it came to the miners, they were free marketeers when they vetoed the EU's attempt to protect British steel from China, but now they're all about corporate welfare if it will keep them in power.

Cameron inferred he would trigger article 50 the day after a leave vote but no one really believed him, there was no planning for that whatsoever and vote leave said throughout the whole campaign there would be a period of preparation first.

Ah yes, the "I didn't personally believe it therefore inadmissable" defence. We are 4 months in and the Leave crowd have prepared nothing, instead they took a holiday, came back and attempted a right wing victory lap at their party conference before reality set back in.
 

Dougald

Member
We can't infer anything from today's data about the long term effects of brexit, what we can infer though it that the treasury report, and the vast majority of the short term predictions made before the referendum where complete and utter bollocks.

Politicians don't know what the hell they're on about on either side of this whole mess, I think that's something we can probably all agree on
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Politicians don't know what the hell they're on about on either side of this whole mess, I think that's something we can probably all agree on

Indeed.

I said at the time that the treasury report was nonsense, hell even Osbourne said at the time of setting up the OBR he was doing so as the treasury was overtly political and their reports could not be trusted.
 

Dougald

Member
Indeed.

I said at the time that the treasury report was nonsense, hell even Osbourne said at the time of setting up the OBR he was doing so as the treasury was overtly political and their reports could not be trusted.

Everything was amped up to 11 during the referendum. Concerns about cheaper eastern-european labour became "MILLIONS OF TURKS ARE GOING TO JOIN THE EU", and economic concerns became "PUNISHMENT BUDGET"
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Andrew Neil has been arguing with people on twitter over this for a while now, the report doesn't mention anything about in the event of triggering article 50, just in the event of a leave vote.

Cameron inferred he would trigger article 50 the day after a leave vote but no one really believed him, there was no planning for that whatsoever and vote leave said throughout the whole campaign there would be a period of preparation first.

We can't infer anything from today's data about the long term effects of brexit, what we can infer though it that the treasury report, and the vast majority of the short term predictions made before the referendum where complete and utter bollocks.

Honestly, you're talking such rubbish it's infuriating. I work in a company that was responsible for some of the Brexit forecasts that government quoted (I mean, I wasn't involved, I'm a recent hire, but you get the picture). If we get these things wrong, or are scaremongering, then we don't get hired again.

What actually happened after the Brexit vote was: nothing. No laws were changed. No economic regulations were changed. No hiring regulations were changed. No tariffs were introduced. No single markets were left. No new monetary restrictions or expansions occurred. Nothing changed.

What's more, until two years after Article 50, none of those things will change. For, at a minimum, if May triggered Article 50 tomorrow, we would still be, for the next two years: a member of the single market, not face tariffs on our goods abroad, not see any changes in hiring regulation to replace EU laws, no changes in economic regulation to replace EU directives. Nothing. No change. Why? Because for at least the next two years, we are still members of the European Union. So why would the economy be any different now to what it was before the vote? It's the same economy.

Until we actually do leave, all that has changed is expectations. Forecasts. The only influence that the vote could *possibly* have had on economic performance *now* is people changing their investment decisions or whatever because the payoff period extends more than two years into the future.

So you're saying "leaving clearly hasn't been bad and everyone who said so was wrong"? Well, no shit Sherlock. We've not actually left. What the Treasury report comments on is the impact of leaving the European Union. We've not left yet.

And Andrew Neil is wrong. Let me quote from the report, here:

This paper focuses on the immediate economi
c impact of a vote to leave and the two
years that follow.

It is implicit from this sentence that the paper thinks Article 50 would be triggered after the vote - otherwise, it wouldn't say "the two years that follow", it'd say "the following years". In our real timeline right now, it'll be almost three years between the vote and Britain leaving if May triggers Article 50 in March.

That was just the introduction. Here it is again:

he size of the transition
effect is linked to the estimate of leavin
g the Single Market and defaulting to WTO
membership.
In the severe shock scenario, the
analysis shows that after two years

the level of GDP would be 6% lower,
the number of people unemployed would
rise by around 800,000, sterling would depr
eciate by 15% and CPI inflation would
increase by 2.7 percentage points after a year.

and again:

The long-term document did not consi
der the immediate economic shock of a
vote to leave the EU. This document looks
at the immediate effect from the point of a
decision to two years later, as this is the period in which to negotiate a withdrawal
agreement to leave the EU as
set out in the Treaties.


Frankly, I'm really struggling not to lose patience. You are wrong. There is no way around it. You are simply wrong, you do not understand what you are talking about, and you persist in the face of your ignorance.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Frankly, I'm really struggling not to lose patience. You are wrong. There is no way around it. You are simply wrong, you do not understand what you are talking about, and you persist in the face of your ignorance.

In another thread Nicktendo86 said he didn't like spending time in this thread due to the overwhelming negativity. I didn't say anything at the time but I suspect he doesn't like this thread because it challenges his worldview and slight fantasies.

Forgive him, he just trying to hang off a cliff of his positive outcomes.
 

chadskin

Member
To add to what Crab said above, Cameron's promise to trigger Article 50 right away is also directly mentioned in the paper as one source of instability following a vote to leave in the referendum:
The transition effect described in Part 1 for businesses and households to adjust to the new, lower long-term level of GDP would be exacerbated by the uncertainty of the process of leaving the EU. No member state has ever left the EU, so the process would be unprecedented. (p. 24)
The Prime Minister has said that if the UK votes to leave the EU, the British people would expect the Article 50 process to start straight away. Article 50 provides for a two-year negotiation to agree a withdrawal agreement that would require enhanced qualified majority approval from the remaining 27 member states and the support of the European Parliament. An extension to the two-year deadline would require the unanimous agreement of all 27 remaining member states. Without such an extension, if after two years no deal were reached, exit from the EU would take place automatically. (p. 25)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Frankly, I'm really struggling not to lose patience. You are wrong. There is no way around it. You are simply wrong, you do not understand what you are talking about, and you persist in the face of your ignorance.

Ouch.

Obviously you're right that nothing material has changed, we are still very much members with the same regulatory framework etc etc, things have changed though in the sense that we now know we are leaving the EU and there definitely will be a period of uncertainty but the economy seems to be resilient to the face of that so far.

I keep saying as well that there are a lot of uncertainties on the horizon and there will be massive challenges, but it's not all doom and gloom.

tuxfoolIn said:
another thread Nicktendo86 said he didn't like spending time in this thread due to the overwhelming negativity. I didn't say anything at the time but I suspect he doesn't like this thread because it challenges his worldview and slight fantasies.

Forgive him, he just trying to hang off a cliff of his positive outcomes. ]

Yeah I remember that vaguely.
 
In another thread Nicktendo86 said he didn't like spending time in this thread due to the overwhelming negativity. I didn't say anything at the time but I suspect he doesn't like this thread because it challenges his worldview and slight fantasies.

Forgive him, he just trying to hang off a cliff of his positive outcomes.

Well, it's true, this thread is very negative. I don't think that's an unreasonable comment tbh.

I can't see how Nissan keeping all these jobs in Sunderland is anything but good news, but somehow the conversation turns that way again...
 

jelly

Member
The fact the government is basically subsidising business to stop it from leaving is quite funny.

Yeah, it doesn't look good and other companies will want the same help too or sod them which is more likely to happen for most of the other conpanies.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Something to lighten the mood slightly, John McDonnell apparently said breakfast instead of brexit three times in a speech today. Must be a record surely.
 

Biggzy

Member
The fact the government is basically subsidising business to stop it from leaving is quite funny.

We don't know the exact details of what the UK government has agreed with Nissan in this case.

What is clear is that Nissan would not guarantee the jobs in Sunderland if they were going to have to pay a penny more to produce cars there as 80% of the cars are exported.

Either the UK has assured them that the car industry will be kept in the single market somehow, or if tariffs are introduced the UK government will compensate Nissan. If the UK is in the business of compensating firms for Brexit, then that it will quite the expensive game to play.
 

ittoryu

Member
Well, it's true, this thread is very negative. I don't think that's an unreasonable comment tbh.

I can't see how Nissan keeping all these jobs in Sunderland is anything but good news, but somehow the conversation turns that way again...
You should read few post back, it was well explained.
There is no "good news", this was expected.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
We don't know the exact details of what the UK government has agreed with Nissan in this case.

What is clear is that Nissan would not guarantee the jobs in Sunderland if they were going to have to pay a penny more to produce cars there as 80% of the cars are exported.

Either the UK has assured them that the car industry will be kept in the single market somehow, or if tariffs are introduced the UK government will compensate Nissan. If the UK is in the business of compensating firms for Brexit, then that it will quite the expensive game to play.

James Forsythe, who broke the news on Saturday that Nissan was deciding to give the contract to Sunderland, said the government did make assurances but are confident that they won't need to stump up as tariffs won't go up.

Whether that's because they are confident in getting the EU to agree a deal, whether they plan to stay in the single market or, most likely I think, hope to get some sort of deal on an industry basis, is anyone's guess really.

ittoryu said:
You should read few post back, it was well explained.
There is no "good news", this was expected.
The Qashqai news was expected but I don't think the news of moving the x-trail to Sunderland was, I could be wrong of course.
 
You should read few post back, it was well explained.
There is no "good news", this was expected.

Ehh, not really. I don't feel like going back a hundred pages or whatever but I remember plenty of discussion back in July about how these jobs would be going to the continent, Sunderland is full of idiots, it'll be a ghost town, we'll need to send them food packages, etc.

When a big car manufacturer says it's keeping jobs in Sunderland you can't even say you're happy in this thread without being barked down with "NOTHING HAPPENED YET!", as if that earlier discussion never took place.
 

ittoryu

Member
Ehh, not really. I don't feel like going back a hundred pages or whatever but I remember plenty of discussion back in July about how these jobs would be going to the continent, Sunderland is full of idiots, it'll be a ghost town, we'll need to send them food packages, etc.

When a big car manufacturer says it's keeping jobs in Sunderland you can't even say you're happy in this thread without being barked down with "NOTHING HAPPENED YET!", as if that earlier discussion never took place.
It's one page back, in the end: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=221671547&postcount=15445

Also: the UK is still in EU.
 
Saying the UK is still in the EU is pretty meaningless in the context of Nissan investing to be fair, as it won't be at some point in the lifecycle of those cars, so whatever the govt has offered them is enough to placate them.
 

ittoryu

Member
Saying the UK is still in the EU is pretty meaningless in the context of Nissan investing to be fair, as it won't be at some point in the lifecycle of those cars, so whatever the govt has offered them is enough to placate them.
Unless obviously what has been promised is the permanence in the single market and free movement :)
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Saying the UK is still in the EU is pretty meaningless in the context of Nissan investing to be fair, as it won't be at some point in the lifecycle of those cars, so whatever the govt has offered them is enough to placate them.

The Nissan example is a bit specific; Nissan doesn't really have the infrastructure to build this anywhere else, it can't just leave the UK really. There's no way it could really bring the X-Trail anywhere else, it simply wouldn't have the time to set up manufacturing plants. So they're stuck with us.

I think somewhere I saw a good chart of all the major carmakers currently operating in the UK and their production timelines. I don't think the first major losses are expected until 2019, although that's just from memory. Basically these companies need enough time to build up their infrastructure outside the UK before they can switch, which takes a few years.

Do you know the one I'm talking about, Funky Papa? You know more about this one than I do.
 
It's one page back, in the end: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=221671547&postcount=15445

Also: the UK is still in EU.

<sigh> Ok, guess I do have to go back and dig up old posts.

Here's a good example:

Factories across Europe have to compete with each other in order to produce new models or keep the ones already in place. It isn't just salaries, but supporting partners in the region and the capacity to expand if necessary. This is a little known fact that is the cause of much bitterness in the industry. Japanese companies have already frozen investment at their UK plants due to the sheer uncertainty of the situation, which means that money will go elsewhere, propping factories in other regions and making Sunderland and other British locations less competitive. And this won't be just a 2016 thing. Nissan, Honda and Toyota will be extremely wary of making significant new investments in the UK for several years (at very least until the UK has exited the EU and the economic factors have stabilised), specially when they already have competitive factories in the continent that are more than willing to take in new models.

This scary portent has now turned into a breezy "I predicted this" when it turned out not to be the case.

I'm sure Funky Papa knows more about the automotive industry than I do (not difficult!) but this type of thing is repeated over and over in this thread imo.
 
Oh goodie. The car manufacturers Nissan might not be going.

That'll be sure to please the people at my university after a round of emails asking for people to take voluntary redundancies because of the significantly reduce value of the pound means cuts to number of staff are likely going to happen (especially if/when EU funding goes completely, though uk institutes are being cut from joint multinational grants already).
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Do you know the one I'm talking about, Funky Papa? You know more about this one than I do.

Oh, I wish I had that around. Sure it would be handy. Alas, I pull all my stuff by hand (read: Googling production dates) :(

Automotive News has an interesting bit about the Sunderland situation, though:

The UK government has given Nissan a written commitment of extra support in the event that Brexit reduces the competitiveness of the Sunderland plant, in return for new production investments, a source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters. In addition to unconditional investment aid, Britain pledged to offer further relief if the terms of Britain's exit from the EU ended up harming the plant's performance, the source said.
Good luck trying to pull a South Korea once Article 50 comes around and every car maker in the realm wants the same kind of deal.

<sigh> Ok, guess I do have to go back and dig up old posts.

Here's a good example:I'm sure Funky Papa knows more about the automotive industry than I do (not difficult!) but this type of thing is repeated over and over in this thread imo.
Nissan's investment is relatively minor in the sense that they don't have to increase capacity by much nor requires massive expansion/retooling/lots of new agreements with suppliers. The Qashqai production already takes place there (this whole talk about it being a win for Sunderland is kind of senseless when no European factory can produce it) and the X-Trail is not an expensive model to make. Nevermind the bit about the government basically subsidising production if shit happens, which greatly reduces Nissan's exposure.

As far as I know Nissan Sunderland isn't even increasing its staff in a significant way, but keeping it. That's how huge of an investment in production we are talking about. The fact that they are adding the X-Trail (which is largely aimed at the British market) yet not resulting in a large increase of infrastructure/staff is some pretty hmm stuff.

I appreciate the snark, though.
 

PJV3

Member
Good news about Nissan, sad that all of a sudden the country and Tory government is happy to spend money to stand still.

It's going to cost money, the EU want as much business to relocate as possible to make up for our contribution. The idea we can cherry pick sectors to remain in the single market is fanciful to me.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Oh hey, here comes Toyota panhandling around.

Speaking to reporters in Tokyo this week, Chief Competitive Officer and Executive Vice President Didier Leroy said he had trust in the UK government that it will offer "fair treatment" for all companies when negotiating agreements to mitigate the effect of Brexit.

Businesses operating in Britain are concerned the country is heading toward a so-called "hard Brexit" that would leave it outside the EU's single market and facing tariffs of up to 10 percent to export cars to the trading bloc.

Having produced nearly half of all cars made in Britain in 2015, Japanese automakers are facing decisions on how they can stay competitive in a post-Brexit Britain, as they will be exposed to any rise in tariffs.

I mean, it's only fair if Nissan got away with it.
 
Nissan's investment is relatively minor in the sense that they don't have to increase capacity by much nor requires massive expansion/retooling/lots of new agreements with suppliers. The Qashqai production already takes place there and the X-Trail is not an expensive model to make. Nevermind the bit about the government basically subsidising production if shit happens, which greatly reduces Nissan's exposure.

As far as I know Nissan Sunderland isn't even increasing its staff in a significant way, but keeping it. That's how huge of an investment in production we are talking about.

I appreciate the snark, though.

Sorry dude, but for some reason people point blank refuse to accept that this thread goes hog-wild with pessimistic predictions (seriously, read that old quoted post again: "frozen investment" "money will go elsewhere", "extremely wary" "at the very least...") while positive stuff is hand-waved away. I don't know why it's so hard to accept.
 

Beefy

Member
Sorry dude, but for some reason people point blank refuse to accept that this thread goes hog-wild with pessimistic predictions (seriously, read that old quoted post again: "frozen investment" "money will go elsewhere", "extremely wary" "at the very least...") while positive stuff is hand-waved away. I don't know why it's so hard to accept.

How is it a positive that the Government may have to help out Nissan financially because of Brexit?
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Sorry dude, but for some reason people point blank refuse to accept that this thread goes hog-wild with pessimistic predictions (seriously, read that old quoted post again: "frozen investment" "money will go elsewhere", "extremely wary" "at the very least...") while positive stuff is hand-waved away. I don't know why it's so hard to accept.

I stand by my words.

I also think it's only fair to say that the government stepping in to subsidise manufacturers (which I didn't expect) in the event of Brexit screwing their finances is something novel.

It is also something that may become incredibly contentious when the time comes to negotiate a trade treaty with the EU. Eastern Europe is not going to like this at all. France, Germany and Spain may also have some words about it.

Edit: We can probably start drawing a picture of how much Brexit is going to cost the taxpayer if the government decides to support automakers in order to keep the automotive industry alive

Shanks said Britain&#8217;s decision to leave the European Union will cost Ford $200 million this year and $600 million next year.
That's Ford alone. From their Q3 report.
 
Alright, I'm not going to labour the point. It's all I seem to do in this thread these days, and I know there's a dim view on "meta" commentary.

Edit: aaaaaaand this post gets top of page, whoops :-/
 

Kabouter

Member
So is the British taxpayer going to be subsidizing all businesses affected by a departure from the common market, or only the large ones?
 
Out of interest, how exactly does the UK intend to provide export subsidies to Nissan, when they are generally prohibited by WTO rules?

Interestingly, I'm currently under pressure to shift one of my projects into the UK due to Brexit dramatically reducing the effective cost (primary cost here is essentially the staff's hourly rates, so being in GBP makes it a lot cheaper than USD or EUR).

In a reverse micrososm of Nissan's decision, I don't think I'll be moving the project since the effort of 'retooling' doesn't justify the cost savings. Sadly, Obama still hasn't called me to offer a kickback, presumably because my project doesn't cross any tariff barriers.

I think my industry will have a staffing crisis in the UK. Our suddenly cheap costs mean that demand will rise, but we source a lot of staff from the EU - and they're unlikely to come over here when they'd get a massive real-terms pay cut and possibly get kicked out again when Brexit really happens. It will be interesting to see how we cope with the likely shift from "Do it in the UK if you want quality" to "Do it in the UK if you want it cheap".
 
We're about to take on a staggering about of debt for absolutely no reason.

When their kids and grandkids are still paying it off, I hope their pyrrhic victory and factory job was worth it.

Since negotiations haven't even begun, it might be premature the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Now, realistically, there's a good chance that there will be a time for wailing, but nobody actually knows what the hell this is all going to cost...
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
So is the British taxpayer going to be subsidizing all businesses affected by a departure from the common market, or only the large ones?

We're about to take on a staggering about of debt for absolutely no reason.

Now, realistically, there's a good chance that there will be a time for wailing, but nobody actually knows what the hell this is all going to cost...
On that account:

The big question is what blandishments Theresa May, who recently hosted Carlos Ghosn, the Nissan chief executive, at 10 Downing Street, will have thrown at the Japanese car-making giant to get it to make this commitment.

...


The worry will be that these "assurances", in Mr Ghosn's words, amounted to a gigantic financial lob that Mrs May had to give his company to persuade it to stay.

With four in every five cars produced at Nissan destined for the export market, mainly the rest of the EU, the company was looking at export tariffs of 10% once Britain leaves the EU. The chances are that Mrs May has promised to protect Nissan from that.

...

So that would mean that Mrs May would have to offer similar 'assurances' to every other foreign-owned carmaker operating in the UK and, who knows, perhaps every other exporter who faces tariffs on their products once Britain has left the EU.

The alternative is that Mrs May has given Mr Ghosn assurances that Britain will remain in the EU's single market or customs union once it has left the EU.

...

A third alternative is that Mrs May has reminded Mr Ghosn that, even after Britain has triggered Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, it will not actually be leaving the EU until the spring of 2019 - just when the new production at Sunderland is due to get under way.

She may have convinced him of Britain's ability to cobble together some vestiges of a free trade agreement with the EU in items like cars and especially because the UK is the number one export market for German cars.

Yet that too is unlikely.
What a wondrous boondoggle.

Out of interest, how exactly does the UK intend to provide export subsidies to Nissan, when they are generally prohibited by WTO rules?
Expect this to become a huge deal in the future if subsidies come to happen.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The government could just lower taxes and avoid subsidy issues?

A decrease in corporate taxes will automatically transform in an increase of other kinds of taxes and/or a penalty to the public sector, specially if national finances become strained. I mean, services still need to be paid somehow. So it's either that or eating up some serious debt until things are figured out (are they ever?).

Not to mention that selective tax breaks could be understood as a protectionist measure/illegal subsidy under certain rules. I don't know about the WTO, but that was more or less what happened with Apple and Ireland. America and the EU are also butting heads over Boeing and Airbus for similar reasons.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
So is the British taxpayer going to be subsidizing all businesses affected by a departure from the common market, or only the large ones?

Only the ones who employ people in marginal constituencies, obviously.
 

Tak3n

Banned
I don't think the EU can start moaning that the Government will start offering 'incentives' to stay in the UK, I get that the EU would probably like to see the UK burn to send the strongest possible message, but on the other hand it would be in the Governments interest to make the UK a better place to do business

of course the elephant in the room will be how much this is going to cost the tax payer...and I expect the steel industry will be feeling very sore this morning
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I don't think the EU can start moaning that the Government will start offering 'incentives' to stay in the UK, I get that the EU would probably like to see the UK burn to send the strongest possible message, but on the other hand it would be in the Governments interest to make the UK a better place to do business

of course the elephant in the room will be how much this is going to cost the tax payer...and I expect the steel industry will be feeling very sore this morning

The EU can moan if the incentives are company-specific. That's illegal under WTO rules, so unless we also want WTOxit, if we provide an incentive, we have to provide to all firms within the industry that offer comparable products. That means the UK is going to start heavily subsidizing its car industry, which leaves you rather wondering why Maggie bothered privatizing it in the first place.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I don't think the EU can start moaning that the Government will start offering 'incentives' to stay in the UK, I get that the EU would probably like to see the UK burn to send the strongest possible message, but on the other hand it would be in the Governments interest to make the UK a better place to do business

of course the elephant in the room will be how much this is going to cost the tax payer...and I expect the steel industry will be feeling very sore this morning

It really depends on those incentives. It's also worth noting that the UK will need to establish a new trade agreement with the EU right after leaving it, so even in the event of said incentives being legal under WTO rules, the EU will probably engage in some serious arm-twisting.

I mean, the government sure has a responsability to keep corporations happy, but you have to wonder at what cost and if those measures are sustainable/legal.

Subsidies are always a messy, messy topic when it comes to trade.
 

kmag

Member
I don't think the EU can start moaning that the Government will start offering 'incentives' to stay in the UK, I get that the EU would probably like to see the UK burn to send the strongest possible message, but on the other hand it would be in the Governments interest to make the UK a better place to do business

of course the elephant in the room will be how much this is going to cost the tax payer...and I expect the steel industry will be feeling very sore this morning

WTO can and will. It's kind of the whole point of the enterprise.

https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/24-scm.pdf
 

kmag

Member
It really depends on those incentives. It's also worth noting that the UK will need to establish a new trade agreement with the EU right after leaving it, so even in the event of said incentives being legal under WTO rules, the EU will probably engage in some serious arm-twisting.

I mean, the government sure has a responsability to keep corporations happy, but you have to wonder at what cost and if those measures can be sustained/legal.

Subsidies are always a messy, messy topic when it comes to trade.

There's not a lot of latitude under the WTO rules, what it considers a subsidy is pretty wide

For the purpose of this Agreement, a subsidy shall be deemed to exist if:
(a)(1) there is a financial contribution by a government or any public body within the territory
of a Member (referred to in this Agreement as "government"), i.e. where:
(i) a government practice involves a direct transfer of funds (e.g. grants, loans,
and equity infusion), potential direct transfers of funds or liabilities (e.g. loan
guarantees);
(ii) government revenue that is otherwise due is foregone or not collected (e.g.
fiscal incentives such as tax credits)1
;
(iii) a government provides goods or services other than general infrastructure, or
purchases goods;
(iv) a government makes payments to a funding mechanism, or entrusts or directs
a private body to carry out one or more of the type of functions illustrated in
(i) to (iii) above which would normally be vested in the government and the
practice, in no real sense, differs from practices normally followed by
governments;
or
(a)(2) there is any form of income or price support in the sense of Article XVI of GATT 1994;
and
(b) a benefit is thereby conferred.
 
It'll have repercussions on any future trade deal though.

Also, how legal is it for other countries to do the reverse, make it so cars built in the UK get more expensive?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Sunderland ain't marginal though

Oh, definitely - safe as houses Labour seat (although IIRC the plant is in Houghton constituency, not Sutherland proper). I was just making a cynical joke; my response to Tak3n is the serious one. The UK can't actually be that selective about who it offers these to.
 
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