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[liquidtmd]

Think you're being a bit optimistic here. After being shafted by the conservative/lib dem coalition, there wasn't exactly a leap in voter turnout among young voters in the last general election.

Also, there are 'lies' in every single general election to decide the next governing party, we don't ask for reruns then.

True, but in terms of Governing Parties we get to get rid of them at the next election if they are shit.

This...this is for life. Once Article 50 is invoked we can NEVER GO BACK to how we were.

Genuinely scared if someone doesn't save us from this madness

 

[Starwolf_UK]

https://www.facebook.com/khalid.latif/videos/1563229807104689/

A fantastic poem

I recommend a watch

I was surprised and was expecting the following poem (as I just read it):

A Dead Statesman

I could not dig: I dared not to rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall server me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?

Rudyard Kipling (1865 - 1936)

Spoiler

I'm hearing it in the voice of Boris Johnson

Politics. Politics never changes. But man those last two words; defrauded young. I understand that poem is probably more about war (which the young fight and die in).

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Odd question but wouldn't Scotland technically have powers to veto Brexit before it becomes a posibility?

Absolutely insane not just from David Cameron but the Labour party also, resigning JUST when this country needs out politicians just when the country needs to be united cross party to get the best negotiaion deal they would rather fight for personal gain

I don't think so. I'm glad Sturgeon is trying, but the Scottish Parliament's constitution is pretty clear that Westminster has supremacy. To quote 28. 7. (a)

This section does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland.

This is in the context of the relevant section on the EU (29). I hope they lawyer up and see what they can do, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Think you're being a bit optimistic here. After being shafted by the conservative/lib dem coalition, there wasn't exactly a leap in voter turnout among young voters in the last general election.

Also, there are 'lies' in every single general election to decide the next governing party, we don't ask for reruns then.

I went out to vote, but I can absolutely understand the apathy towards voting among my age group. We've been lied to and betrayed for two consecutive general elections. Politics lost young people the moment the Lib Dems and Torys snaked 18-24 year olds nationwide back in 2010.

The only thing I feel young people are guilty for is being naive enough to trust the rest of the nation not to be so fucking stupid.

 

[PJV3]

Doubling down (Corbyn):

I'm sad for the bloke but I hope no MP's agree to taking positions, they're prolonging the agony.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Looks to me like few member states actually want tighter integration. Some people might, including some in Brussels. But the heads of government who represent the real power in the European Union don't seem to long for it much.

Right now. Who knows what will happen after looking at how incompetent a sovereign government has been from distancing itself from the union.

 

[KingBroly]

Doubling down (Corbyn):

So it sounds like they're trying to come up with an exit plan because the current leadership (not them) doesn't appear to have one.

Am I reading that correctly?

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

It's nice that no one wants the UK to leave. Everyone in the world, plus the 48% that voted remain, plus the majority of government.
Someone just needs to come out and say the UK isn't leaving, let this nightmare end.

 

[hohoXD123]

I think the problem with a lot of young people is that they think they're not smart/experienced enough to make an informed decision and should leave it to their elders. Once you're a bit older and get out into the working world amongst people of all ages, you realise that stupidity goes all the way from zero to 90, and that age definitely does not equal intelligence.

The main problem with young people is apathy. You'd think after continually being screwed over they'd actually get out there and vote.

 

[ShogunX]

And if it's 51% for leave, do we have another vote after? What about if it's 51% for remain?

We aren't voting for a new flavour of Walkers crisps, we are voting for ours and our children's futures.

People have to stop thinking of this vote as a football match in which their team won. It's incredibly simplistic and damaging. Nobody has won a thing as of now, the only thing that has been achieved is uncertainty and a few racist dickheads feeling empowered due to the leave campaigns focus on immigration.

One thing we can all surely agree on - For a vote as big as this that could effect every UK citizen for years and years every vote made should be an informed one not made of the back of misinformation and lies and that goes for both sides.

 

[Pandy]

Doubling down (Corbyn):

I hope he pulls it off. I understand why the 'Blairites', if that's still the right term, decided now was the time to get rid of him from a tactical perspective, but after Cameron's resignation they should have lined up behind Corbyn to show that they actually still had a political party worth giving a damn about.

 

[Chinner]

So it sounds like they're trying to come up with an exit plan because the current leadership (not them) doesn't appear to have one.

Am I reading that correctly?

Yes. Corbyn will not fight for the EU, so he'll push for the exit.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

A young woman made a good point on Question Time about how can it be a working class revolution if it's headed by Boris Johnson, and Michael Gove. Those guys played the working class crowd (even though I'm one) well.

 

[Audioboxer]

It's nice that no one wants the UK to leave. Everyone in the world, plus the 48% that voted remain, plus the majority of government.
Someone just needs to come out and say the UK isn't leaving, let this nightmare end.

70's porno Boris won't be happy

 

[LilJoka]

Anyone who didn't see this leading to Scotland wanting to leave the uk hasn't been paying any attention. By leaving the EU the rest of uk has pretty much removed every convincing reason the no campaign had at the time. The only big thing left is oil and the pride of being British which im sure is severely diminished now north of the border.

Not convinced that enough people would vote remain if you held the vote again this week though. It'll be interesting to see some polls come out and see how it's swung.

I wish more young people could be bothered to vote I have no idea why they wouldn't, it just seems so wasteful for such a large % of them not to bother.

Because most young people do not care for politics. Only now young people have woken up.

Let me put it this way: people don't know what they have until it's gone.

Think you're being a bit optimistic here. After being shafted by the conservative/lib dem coalition, there wasn't exactly a leap in voter turnout among young voters in the last general election.

Also, there are 'lies' in every single general election to decide the next governing party, we don't ask for reruns then.

I wouldn't put the consequences of any general election in my period (I'm 24), to have had any impact compared to leaving the EU, atleast not as widespread for young people in terms of impact.

Lies are one thing, but just a few hours later to admit they were actually lying? Not seen such game playing before.

 

[DjRalford]

Yes. Corbyn will not fight for the EU, so he'll push for the exit.

Some clever chap please photoshop Corbyn in

 

[MrHoot]

I think many Leave voters are more educated than you give them credit for.

I'm sure plenty of them knew all of your points but made their choice anyway - which is totally fine.

Issues such as sovereignty and the structure of the EU may have been enough for many.

If we held it tomorrow I doubt you'd see much change. Young people never vote in the same force as the elderly.

The thing is I never got what was so bad before that the uk "sovereignty" was put into question. It had the best deals out of the union, still had control over its politics while agreeing to the trade deals it made like any other country in a globalized world would.

What exactly now will make it more of a "sovereign nation" ? The UE didn't go away. The economy hasn't changed. They're not gonna get free cake because they asked nicely. It's already established it won't improve the economy. It won't stop immigration. The NHS isn't going to magically get 350 millions per week.

 

[Respect]

70's porno Boris won't be happy

Bob Keeshan look-a-like.

 

[The Incarnation]

No, if someone ends up going far right that's because it's easier to blame your problems on other people, especially if they're outsiders.

Nah, mate. I've seen the rise of people like him over the last few years. Insulting white people (Mainly the poor uneducated ones) like they're some sort of plague on the Earth.

No wonder they think fuck it. The path of least resistance.

I personally voted remain, but I also fully understand why people forced to work in Poundland because of some benefit sanction or whatever might feel some resentment towards people. Especially with this current ruling government.

This is about class, there's no upwards mobility for these people, only punishment. Cuts to benefit, forced to pay council tax on the dole, bedroom tax, cuts to disability, forced to apply for 30 jobs a week or they lose their 70 pounds a week. Even if working they get screwed out of working tax benefits after earning a basic amount. Yet they're called unemployable scrougers, probably because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to fund their education, or perhaps they didn't have a dad around in the first place.

Then they get told by multi-millionaires to vote Remain because of the economic consequence. Threatened with punishment budgets (as if every budget wasn't a punishment to them in the first place)

They've already been dismissed in life, so why would they give a shit?

 

[ferrasvansen]

A young woman made a good point on Question Time about how can it be a working class revolution if it's headed by Boris Johnson, and Michael Gove. Those guys played the working class crowd (even though I'm one) well.

Yeah on Friday watched a group of mixed voters on BBC in Nottingham, when asked if Boris should be PM, bafoon was used in the reply and everyone agreed. He is a toff and that's likely why tory support plummeted after referendum to 32%.

 

[Plum]

A young woman made a good point on Question Time about how can it be a working class revolution if it's headed by Boris Johnson, and Michael Gove. Those guys played the working class crowd (even though I'm one) well.

Yep, this isn't a revolution, this is the working class deciding to commit joint seppeku economically and in terms of livelihood.

 

[Kyougar]

Germany may hold that sway, but does the Secretary for defence?

She is the crown princess of Merkel. She will be chancellor when Merkel resigns.

 

[Corto]

Looks to me like few member states actually want tighter integration. Some people might, including some in Brussels. But the heads of government who represent the real power in the European Union don't seem to long for it much.

Yes. In the current political climate putting the foot down the pedal of European Integration or even Federalization would desintegrate the Union.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Looks to me like few member states actually want tighter integration. Some people might, including some in Brussels. But the heads of government who represent the real power in the European Union don't seem to long for it much.

I disagree. The greek financial crisis, ISIS terrorism and the refugee crisis have shown that the member states cannot solve things on their own and need way more coordination

 

[Morat]

Nah, mate. I've seen the rise of people like him over the last few years. Insulting white people (Mainly the poor uneducated ones) like they're some sort of plague on the Earth.

No wonder they think fuck it. The path of least resistance.

I personally voted remain, but I also fully understand why people forced to work in Poundland because of some benefit sanction or whatever might feel some resentment towards people. Especially with this current ruling government.

This is about class, there's no upwards mobility for these people, only punishment. Cuts to benefit, forced to pay council tax on the dole, bedroom tax, cuts to disability, forced to apply for 30 jobs a week or they lose their 70 pounds a week. Even if working they get screwed out of working tax benefits after earning a basic amount. Yet they're called unemployable scrougers, probably because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to fund their education, or perhaps they didn't have a dad around in the first place.

Then they get told by multi-millionaires to vote Remain because of the economic consequence. Threatened with punishment budgets (as if every budget wasn't a punishment to them in the first place)

They've already been dismissed in life, so why would they give a shit?

And told to vote leave by other multi-millionaires, many of whom had a direct hand in the misery you correctly identify.

 

[geordiemp]

Yes. Corbyn will not fight for the EU, so he'll push for the exit.

Ugggh, we need an election where all the major parties manifesto is to not leave the EU after we have had 2 months of bad news. leave UKIP to stand alone and things can be overturned.

I prefer listening to Blair today than Corbyn.

 

[Wvrs]

All this reminds me of that quote: 'there are decades in which nothing happens, and then there are days in which decades happen.'

Absolutely crazy. It's sad; I'm English, currently at a University in France studying here at next to no extra cost via an exchange scheme made possible by the EU. I'm working class, grew up much poorer than most I know, and this is the only way I could ever have gone to study abroad. Future generations from a similar background to me will be robbed of such a wonderful opportunity.

I'm learning another (beautiful) language, have been exposed to so much culture, have met some amazing people and it's completely changed and is changing my outlook on life. I'm proud to be European, and I can't believe that I am at such a disconnect with so many of my fellow Britons. At a time in life where I should be celebrating and representing the best virtues of the country I was born in, I am instead ashamed, feeling divorced from whatever feelings of national pride I once had. I'll be heading back to the UK this September for my final year, and once I graduate I can't see myself staying.

 

[2MF]

I disagree. The greek financial crisis, ISIS terrorism and the refugee crisis have shown that the member states cannot solve things on their own and need way more coordination

I would split that list up a bit and say that the Greek financial crisis is different from the others, it got handled worse by having everyone mess with it.

 

[The Incarnation]

And told to vote leave by other multi-millionaires, many of whom had a direct hand in the misery you correctly identify.

Yet they made a better job of connecting with them anyway.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Ugggh, we need an election where all the major parties manifesto is to not leave the EU after we have had 2 months of bad news. leave UKIP to stand alone and things can be overturned.

I prefer listening to Blair today than Corbyn.

Agreed, he might have fucked up over the war but he spoke a lot of sense today, really could use someone like him in a crisis.

 

[Piecake]

Yes. In the current political climate putting the foot down the pedal of European Integration or even Federalization would desintegrate the Union.

It took a war and economic ruin for the colonies to decide to ditch the Articles of Confederation and adopt the Constitution. I'd imagine that it would take something similarly drastic for the United States of Europe to Happen, which seems rather unlikely considering that the US would have Europe's back if it was ever attacked.

 

[PJV3]

Ugggh, we need an election where all the major parties manifesto is to not leave the EU after we have had 2 months of bad news. leave UKIP to stand alone and things can be overturned.

I prefer listening to Blair today than Corbyn.

Corbyn is toast, if the party puts up a single unifying candidate he's had it.

 

[Moosichu]

Ugggh, we need an election where all the major parties manifesto is to not leave the EU after we have had 2 months of bad news. leave UKIP to stand alone and things can be overturned.

I prefer listening to Blair today than Corbyn.

That's exceptionally dangerous under FPTP as it splits the Remain vote while leaving UKIP to unify the leave voters.

Ideally there should be a single extremely pro-remain party.

 

[Morat]

Yet they made a better job of connecting with them anyway.

Sure. At least in part because anger and simple answers are always easier than complicated reality. Believe me, I fundamentally blame the demagogues, rather than the people who bought their poison.

 

[Snarfington]

All this reminds me of that quote: 'there are decades in which nothing happens, and then there are days in which decades happen.'

Absolutely crazy. It's sad; I'm English, currently at a University in France studying here at next to no cost via an exchange scheme made possible by the EU. I'm working class, and this is the only way I could ever have gone to study abroad. Future generations will be robbed of such a wonderful opportunity.

I'm learning another (beautiful) language, have been exposed to so much culture, have met some amazing people and it's completely changed and is changing my outlook on life. I'm proud to be European, and I can't believe that I am at such a disconnect with so many of my fellow Britons. At a time in life where I should be celebrating and representing the best virtues of the country I was born in, I am instead ashamed, feeling divorced from whatever feelings of national pride I once had.

Many of your fellow Brits feel just the same as you do. It's heartbreaking. I was hoping to pursue postgraduate education next year, abroad or domestically, and this has thrown all of that into doubt. It's very scary what ramifications this will have, and sad to realise the nation I belong to is filled with people who feel so drastically different than myself about our place in the world.

 

[ferrasvansen]

That's exceptionally dangerous under FPTP as it splits the Remain vote while leaving UKIP to unify the leave voters.

Ideally there should be a single extremely pro-remain party.

Yep would not be a bad idea, no way the tories or UKIP unify, so would be an easy win.

 

[hohoXD123]

True, but in terms of Governing Parties we get to get rid of them at the next election if they are shit.

This...this is for life. Once Article 50 is invoked we can NEVER GO BACK to how we were.

Genuinely scared if someone doesn't save us from this madness

Governing parties can do long-lasting damage themselves, even if they are kicked out eventually.

I went out to vote, but I can absolutely understand the apathy towards voting among my age group. We've been lied to and betrayed for two consecutive general elections. Politics lost young people the moment the Lib Dems and Torys snaked 18-24 year olds nationwide back in 2010.

The only thing I feel young people are guilty for is being naive enough to trust the rest of the nation not to be so fucking stupid.

Yeah, we were lied to and betrayed. The options would be to learn from that, carry on voting for parties and in referendums which are more likely to have your interests at heart, or not vote at all and let parties get into power who don't care about you simply because of the fact you didn't vote in the first place. If you go for the second option then you have no right at all to complain about referendum and general election results which don't go in your favour. There were 1.3 million votes separating Leave and Remain, if the 18-24 group had anywhere near the same voter turnout as the older groups with 70% favouring Remain then we probably wouldn't be in this mess. All the apathy about constantly being lied to and our votes not making a difference, but in this case it would have made a massive difference.

 

[Hasney]

Nah, mate. I've seen the rise of people like him over the last few years. Insulting white people (Mainly the poor uneducated ones) like they're some sort of plague on the Earth.

No wonder they think fuck it. The path of least resistance.

I personally voted remain, but I also fully understand why people forced to work in Poundland because of some benefit sanction or whatever might feel some resentment towards people. Especially with this current ruling government.

This is about class, there's no upwards mobility for these people, only punishment. Cuts to benefit, forced to pay council tax on the dole, bedroom tax, cuts to disability, forced to apply for 30 jobs a week or they lose their 70 pounds a week. Even if working they get screwed out of working tax benefits after earning a basic amount. Yet they're called unemployable scrougers, probably because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to fund their education, or perhaps they didn't have a dad around in the first place.

Then they get told by multi-millionaires to vote Remain because of the economic consequence. Threatened with punishment budgets (as if every budget wasn't a punishment to them in the first place)

They've already been dismissed in life, so why would they give a shit?

I agree with quite a lot of that, but it's hard to change that. I don't fully buy that it's a lot of people looking down on them, but when I lived in the town where I was born, I tried to campaign for more social welfare and get votes for Labour or Lib Dems depending on who was offering a better deal or at least were better on local issues, but then it turns around and they vote Tory as it's a safe seat and question why nothings changed. It was disheartening.

Everytime, I keep seeing these areas push further right and the worst thing is that if UKIP were in power, benefits would be at their worst state. There's less funding for those areas the further right you go and everytime someone thinks "it can't get any worse", a lot manage to vote for it to get worse.

Labour especially need to engage those areas somehow. There's some Tory safe seats out there that are just baffeling.

 

[Respect]

All this reminds me of that quote: 'there are decades in which nothing happens, and then there are days in which decades happen.'

Absolutely crazy. It's sad; I'm English, currently at a University in France studying here at next to no extra cost via an exchange scheme made possible by the EU. I'm working class, grew up much poorer than most I know, and this is the only way I could ever have gone to study abroad. Future generations from a similar background to me will be robbed of such a wonderful opportunity.

I'm learning another (beautiful) language, have been exposed to so much culture, have met some amazing people and it's completely changed and is changing my outlook on life. I'm proud to be European, and I can't believe that I am at such a disconnect with so many of my fellow Britons. At a time in life where I should be celebrating and representing the best virtues of the country I was born in, I am instead ashamed, feeling divorced from whatever feelings of national pride I once had. I'll be heading back to the UK this September for my final year, and once I graduate I can't see myself staying.

Depressing to read...

 

[bosseye]

Interesting/sad the level of denial on display countrywide. So many people desperate to somehow wind the clock back. The cat is out of the bag, Leave is happening in some form or another. It would surely be more productive to start to make the best of the situation to move forward. Instead everyone is imploding, desperate to find the loophole that will reinstate the status quo prior to the referendum.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Corbyn is toast, if the party puts up a single unifying candidate he's had it.

Keir Starmer, please. Maybe Lisa Nandy.

 

[Dorsal Axe]

Yes. Corbyn will not fight for the EU, so he'll push for the exit.

Aaaand that's why he's a dead man walking. Labour won't sit back and allow it.

I don't think so. I'm glad Sturgeon is trying, but the Scottish Parliament's constitution is pretty clear that Westminster has supremacy. To quote 28. 7. (a)

There's no doubt they do, but would Westminster actually do so though? Most MPs don't want this to go ahead. Should it happen (most likely not) I could see them allowing Scotland to block it, take the heat (which would impact SNP very little, since they have no real presence outside of Scotland), Westminster can wash their hands of it and say they had nothing to do with it. Bit a win-win, really. Well, as much as they'll ever get, at any rate.

Only catch is... the price of doing this is Indyref2, and I don't know how desperate Westminster is to go for that. Yet.

 

[nature boy]

I hope he pulls it off. I understand why the 'Blairites', if that's still the right term, decided now was the time to get rid of him from a tactical perspective, but after Cameron's resignation they should have lined up behind Corbyn to show that they actually still had a political party worth giving a damn about.

Why? He's pro-Brexit, Labour needs to be the main force in favor of remaining in the EU.

 

[Dougald]

Corbyn is toast, if the party puts up a single unifying candidate he's had it.

A lot of people joined the Labour party after the last general election and elected Corbyn. I'd consider joining the Labour party to vote him out. I have respect for some of his policies but Labour is utterly unelectable with him at the helm

 

[Plum]

Nah, mate. I've seen the rise of people like him over the last few years. Insulting white people (Mainly the poor uneducated ones) like they're some sort of plague on the Earth.

No wonder they think fuck it. The path of least resistance.

I personally voted remain, but I also fully understand why people forced to work in Poundland because of some benefit sanction or whatever might feel some resentment towards people. Especially with this current ruling government.

This is about class, there's no upwards mobility for these people, only punishment. Cuts to benefit, forced to pay council tax on the dole, bedroom tax, cuts to disability, forced to apply for 30 jobs a week or they lose their 70 pounds a week. Even if working they get screwed out of working tax benefits after earning a basic amount. Yet they're called unemployable scrougers, probably because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to fund their education, or perhaps they didn't have a dad around in the first place.

Then they get told by multi-millionaires to vote Remain because of the economic consequence. Threatened with punishment budgets (as if every budget wasn't a punishment to them in the first place)

They've already been dismissed in life, so why would they give a shit?

All of this will still be true after Brexit, in fact it will be worse. They have now completely and irreversibly signed this country over to the Tories, the same elites who had fucked them over time and time again. Being poor is not an excuse for ignorance-led spite fueling your actions. Both political sides of the debate were just as bad, but the leave side just knew how to tap into that ignorance as their entire campaign was based on lies and half-truths instead of the "experts telling us what to do" on remain's side.

 

[TheChamp]

Its hilarious seeing the Labour meltdown today the Labour party MPs simply do not understand their own members going to be hilarious when Jeremy Corbyn is ousted as leader just to win the party leadership challange again in a few months

 

[Maledict]

Interesting/sad the level of denial on display countrywide. So many people desperate to somehow wind the clock back. The cat is out of the bag, Leave is happening in some form or another. It would surely be more productive to start to make the best of the situation to move forward. Instead everyone is imploding, desperate to find the loophole that will reinstate the status quo prior to the referendum.

No. I disagree. I will retain my right to protest, to argue against this, and to use the levers of democracy to try and ensure it doesn't happen.

I will never stand with racists and xenophobia, and the people who just voted to strip me of rights I've had since I was born. My future, and the future of other young working adults like me, just got nuked from orbit. The idea that we can now 'come together in unity' is ridiculous and obscene.

There is no 'best of' situation apart from stopping this fucking train wreck from happening. Thank gods for Germany and Scotland right now.

 

[Maledict]

Its hilarious seeing the Labour meltdown today the Labour party MPs simply do not understand their own members going to be hilarious when Jeremy Corbyn is ousted as leader just to win the party leadership challange again in a few months

If he gets on the ballot - and judging by UKpoligaf there are a large number of former Corbyn voters who won't back him this time around if he does manage it. Numerous constituency parties are finding the same result as well.

Corbyn fucked over his own base with this crap over the referendum. If the party puts up someone decent, with a pro-eu platform, he's toast.

 

[SporeCrawler]

I would split that list up a bit and say that the Greek financial crisis is different from the others, it got handled worse by having everyone mess with it.

The problem there was that the greek government had too much freedom to make unlimited debt for too long. With a joint financial system that would compelement the monetary union would help

 

[Hasney]

Interesting/sad the level of denial on display countrywide. So many people desperate to somehow wind the clock back. The cat is out of the bag, Leave is happening in some form or another. It would surely be more productive to start to make the best of the situation to move forward. Instead everyone is imploding, desperate to find the loophole that will reinstate the status quo prior to the referendum.

I disagree entirely. I will align with parties that will keep us in or take us back closer to the Europe and the EU and that will be my path going forward. Just now I will expend more energy than just voting because it's clearly not enough. Do you think UKIP would have gone away had remain won? That's not how politics works.