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[liftedly]

He knows the truth.
He's only saying that so that when he goes for that EEA deal he could claim he didn't think people voted Leave because of immigration.

After reading the column I think so too. Posted that tweet before reading the column.

An EEA deal is probably the next best thing, fingers crossed.

 

[Kathian]

It's a hell of a change already, will only grow over time now, especially with toff Boris as PM and a 2020 tory victory. It's over now just a matter of when not if.

Depends. The campaign is what matters. Sturgeon needs a currency answer and a EU answer. Theres a UK trade question now too depending on the result of the renegotiation .

 

[pigeon]

Maybe this was all a test.

I mean, if so, everybody failed, right? The queen is going to be super disappointed.

 

[SporeCrawler]

We didn't anyway, despite paying a higher contribution (over 6b more) than most countries that do.
We was one of the bigger contributors but our vote means nothing.
And I didn't vote leave either, but I can understand why people would.

UK had a lot to say in the EU. UK could veto decisions and could send representatives in the commission the parliament and the council

Uk for example voted against more capital market regulation after 2008

 

[kharma45]

I would not think Sturgeon would be overly impressed by that, right now when the hurt is still raw the yes vote should be way out in front.... No way she calls a referendum on those figures.... Lose another referendum and it is done for a long time

I'd imagine she'd want 60%-ish to be comfortable. Lose and she's done, and this time it will really be the last vote in a generation.

 

[Hasney]

It's a hell of a change already, will only grow over time now, especially with toff Boris as PM and a 2020 tory victory. It's over now just a matter of when not if.

Think it depends on assurances around the EU as well to raise that number, but get that, and it should be even higher. Just have assurances and a counter to everything the government can try to put fear in the Scottish people about and it should be a more convincing than the EU referendum yes.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I would not think Sturgeon would be overly impressed by that, right now when the hurt is still raw the yes vote should be way out in front.... No way she calls a referendum on those figures.... Lose another referendum and it is done for a long time

True it won't be soon, but the machine that won the no vote has been dismantled and given the reaction to the project fear campaign I see only one winner.

 

[SuperSah]

Can I have a summery of what happened?

Your comments all read like chances of Brexit has reduced but I can't seem to put it together - too many posts :/

 

[theaface]

I mean, if so, everybody failed, right? The queen is going to be super disappointed.

Only 48% of the class passed.

 

[avaya]

I mean, I don't think a second referendum resolves the fundamental issue that having a referendum at all was incredibly stupid.

The entire point of representative democracy, which you arguably invented, was to ensure that there's still a filter between the mob and the world. That's what professional politicians are for, to take a set of generally unreasonable and contradictory desires and identify actually feasible plans and goals that will have mainstream support as opposed to 51% support.

It shouldn't be lost on anybody after the events of the last few days that if you removed the politicians who were pretending to support Leave but really just wanted more negotiating with the EU, the total number of MPs that really genuinely wanted to leave is probably around one.* Because leaving the EU is a stupid and terrible idea! But both saying "well the voters were uneducated" and saying "well even if it's wrong they voted for it" are not good responses to the issue. The issue is that it's unreasonable to expect the average British person to understand all the details of the question of EU membership enough to make a reasonable decision. The average British person, unlike the average MP, has a real job to do. They can't spend their whole day studying up.

Fundamentally the issue you're now grappling with is that setting this question to the general public at all was incredibly dumb. Literally the reason you have Parliament at all is to ensure shit like that doesn't happen.*


* And his name is Jeremy Corbyn.
** I mean, also to ensure that the Queen doesn't take unreasonable advantage of the royal forests, I guess, but controlling the mob is like job two at the very least.

Excellent post.

 

[Heckler456]

We didn't anyway, despite paying a higher contribution (over 6b more) than most countries that do.
We was one of the bigger contributors but our vote means nothing.
And I didn't vote leave either, but I can understand why people would.

Your vote meant nothing, and yet your the sole country with as many exemptions as you had? Where are you getting this notion from that your vote meant nothing when talking about the EU?

 

[2700]

History won't be kind to Boris Johnson, the man who accidentally started a global recession.

 

[Hasney]

Can I have a summery of what happened?

Your comments all read like chances of Brexit has reduced but I can't seem to put it together - too many posts :/

Boris had his column and it reads like a man who had lost on the Remain side, adding more to the belief that he never wanted to leave the EU in the first place.

 

[Steel]

I mean, I don't think a second referendum resolves the fundamental issue that having a referendum at all was incredibly stupid.

The entire point of representative democracy, which you arguably invented, was to ensure that there's still a filter between the mob and the world. That's what professional politicians are for, to take a set of generally unreasonable and contradictory desires and identify actually feasible plans and goals that will have mainstream support as opposed to 51% support.

It shouldn't be lost on anybody after the events of the last few days that if you removed the politicians who were pretending to support Leave but really just wanted more negotiating with the EU, the total number of MPs that really genuinely wanted to leave is probably around one.* Because leaving the EU is a stupid and terrible idea! But both saying "well the voters were uneducated" and saying "well even if it's wrong they voted for it" are not good responses to the issue. The issue is that it's unreasonable to expect the average British person to understand all the details of the question of EU membership enough to make a reasonable decision. The average British person, unlike the average MP, has a real job to do. They can't spend their whole day studying up.

Fundamentally the issue you're now grappling with is that setting this question to the general public at all was incredibly dumb. Literally the reason you have Parliament at all is to ensure shit like that doesn't happen.*


* And his name is Jeremy Corbyn.
** I mean, also to ensure that the Queen doesn't take unreasonable advantage of the royal forests, I guess, but controlling the mob is like job two at the very least.

Completely agreed. The fact that this was put to a referendum at all is completely nuts.

 

[Corto]

That's actually quite a reasonable position to take to be honest.

But it's such a binary decision that there isn't a middle ground to reach. And the remaining 27 EU members must also accept that imaginary middle ground, only a few months after UK reached an exceptional Special Status within the Union.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Where is that word cloud picture of voting reasons that had "immigration" in the middle again?

Fuck off

 

[ferrasvansen]

Think it depends on assurances around the EU as well to raise that number, but get that, and it should be even higher. Just have assurances and a counter to everything the government can try to put fear in the Scottish people about and it should be a more convincing than the EU referendum yes.

Thing is its likely it will be Tories vs everyone else and with newspapers swinging behind support for yes, there won't be the same barrage as before, combined with the lies about protection of our EU status, well fun times ahead.

 

[GamerMax73]

For me, it's Lib Dems, purely because the Greens aren't saying they would ignore the referendum result and the Lib Dems are. If the Greens do come out on a platform of keeping us in the EU, I'll take another look for sure.

Seriously? The greens are the one party that don't need to come out and say anything. You don't get more pro EU than the greens. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, but that said I'm sure they won't hold anything against me if I out them on this - a green government would 100% never take us out of Europe. In the unlikely event they are elected then they can be trusted more than the Lib Dems to ignore the referendum result.

 

[Hasney]

Fuck off

He doesn't believe that, but he does know the country needs freedom of movement so he's saying that to keep the borders as they are. It's not even that clever like Boris usually is.

 

[FrozenCell]

She's always been pretty stand up, hence how the SNP are doing better under her than Salmond. The two biggest attacks she tends to get in the absence of her having many other serious weaknesses are

a) She wants to breakup the UK ~ The SNP have always wanted independence...
b) She is ugly

bollocks, she's cute!

 

[theaface]

Can I have a summery of what happened?

Your comments all read like chances of Brexit has reduced but I can't seem to put it together - too many posts :/

Good luck! In short, Article 50 is now a loaded gun on a table and no one wants to be the one to pull the trigger. MPs have been humiliating themselves all day long on the telly as the full extent of just how much they've been winging in comes to light. Boris the Spider has been exposed a little bit more as the fraud that he is. To top it all off, you have the real prospect that IF anyone actually wanted to go through with Brexit, they may require consent from the Scottish Parliament who, by a stroke of luck for them, may use that as a bargaining chip to secure a 2nd referendum from Westminster.

tl;dr version - the shit show has reached absolute comedy levels. It's a car crash that never ends.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Ok, I see, already posted:


QuicheFontaine, please post if you are still alive.

Spoiler

Last Activity: Today 11:47 PM :O

Can I help you with something?

 

[Clear]

Another interesting article from David Allen Green about Article 50. Basically, our vote to leave the EU is a glorified opinion poll.

https://t.co/MuYmki6ewj

What a cracking article, the bit about this referendum being deliberately constructed to be non-binding is all important, as its essentially a perfect get-out clause.

The only question is if and (more likely) when this rip-cord gets pulled, and by whom in order to gain maximally politically. Seems like Boris is already maneuvering into position to be able to do this, and ironically its a stance that's increasingly legitimized by pressure by the SNP for its own ends. Meanwhile Labour is tearing itself apart essentially guaranteeing continuing Tory rule.

Putting this all together you could (somewhat fancifully) imagine it all being an intricate machiavellian plan on Johnson's behalf to seize the premiership, score points against Brussels, and cripple the opposition both within and without in one fell swoop. Meanwhile setting a precedent ensuring that Scottish secession never happens by way of a referendum...

 

[PJV3]

History won't be kind to Boris Johnson, the man who accidentally started a global recession.

He played the country like a harp from hell.
He always reminded me of Penguin for some reason, I hate him which helps.

 

[Pankratous]

She's always been pretty stand up, hence how the SNP are doing better under her than Salmond. The two biggest attacks she tends to get in the absence of her having many other serious weaknesses are

a) She wants to breakup the UK ~ The SNP have always wanted independence...
b) She is ugly ~ Good thing personal opinion on looks is completely irrelevant to politics

We're in pretty safe hands in the north. Just wish for democracies sake for those really against independence they had some sort of leader in Scottish Labour.... Kezia Dugdale is useless. She lost ground to the actually pretty decent Ruth Davidson... But Labour losing ground to the Conservatives in Scotland. Damn that is embarrassing.

Nicola Sturgeon? Ugly?

What?

I mean she isn't 'hot' but she is by no means ugly. Hell she even looks cute when she smiles.

 

[oti]

History won't be kind to Boris Johnson, the man who accidentally started a global recession.

I have the feeling Boris will be forgotten (unless he becomes PM) and Cameron will go down in history as the man who threw an entire nation into a volcano. It's Tekken is what I'm trying to say. Who's the bear.

 

[GamerMax73]

Yeah, i dont get it at all. I've been voting since I was 18 (8 years ago) and I don't know a single person of ny age group who doesn't vote. And it's so easy to do. Where the fuck are these apathetics and why?

It's something we don't properly teach in school.

 

[Plum]

Good luck! In short, Article 50 is now a loaded gun on a table and no one wants to be the one to pull the trigger. MPs have been humiliating themselves all day long on the telly as the full extent of just how much they've been winging in comes to light. Boris the Spider has been exposed a little bit more as the fraud that he is. To top it all off, you have the real prospect that IF anyone actually wanted to go through with Brexit, they may require consent from the Scottish Parliament who, by a stroke of luck for them, may use that as a bargaining chip to secure a 2nd referendum from Westminister.

tl;dr version - the shit show has reached absolute comedy levels. It's a car crash that never ends.

However, with Article 50 being so volatile and now Boris clearly showing he'd never actually do it the chances of Brexit not happening are heightened quite significantly I'd say. I hope I'm right about this though.

 

[SuperSah]

Good luck! In short, Article 50 is now a loaded gun on a table and no one wants to be the one to pull the trigger. MPs have been humiliating themselves all day long on the telly as the full extent of just how much they've been winging in comes to light. Boris the Spider has been exposed a little bit more as the fraud that he is. To top it all off, you have the real prospect that IF anyone actually wanted to go through with Brexit, they may require consent from the Scottish Parliament who, by a stroke of luck for them, may use that as a bargaining chip to secure a 2nd referendum from Westminister.

tl;dr version - the shit show has reached absolute comedy levels. It's a car crash that never ends.

Boris had his column and it reads like a man who had lost on the Remain side, adding more to the belief that he never wanted to leave the EU in the first place.

Hilarious. Where is this column to read?

 

[iNvid02]

have sturgeon veto the result of the referendum in Scottish parliament, have Westminster go along with it, scots get a win-win by exercising their power and remaining in the eu.

Westminster gets a win-win-win by keeping the union, staying in the eu, and lessening the blow to leave voters and democracy

job done lads

 

[Walshicus]

We didn't anyway, despite paying a higher contribution (over 6b more) than most countries that do.
We was one of the bigger contributors but our vote means nothing.
And I didn't vote leave either, but I can understand why people would.

I think if you actually look at what went on, you'd see the EU was disproportionately responsive to the"U"K's requirements.

 

[StayDead]

One things for sure, it has shown how incompetent the UK government really is, what a total shit show.

This highlights one reason I don't normally vote, because I don't trust any MP, they are all lying, rich idiots and have shown it here in a big way.

But whoever comes in to fix this mess has got a hell of a job on their hands now. Hopefully someone will step up to the challenge and have some balls to make changes and the right deals that will make it better for the UK people now.

The only deal that will make it better for the UK people is to get Europe to ignore our referendum. There is literally no exit deal that is better than what we already have.

 

[pigeon]

have sturgeon veto the result of the referendum in Scottish parliament, have Westminster go along with it, scots get a win-win by exercising their power and remaining in the eu.

Westminster gets a win-win-win by keeping the union, staying in the eu, and lessening the blow to leave voters and democracy

job done lads

Might lead to a lot of anger against Scots.

Have Northern Ireland veto it.

 

[Plum]

have sturgeon veto the result of the referendum in Scottish parliament, have Westminster go along with it, scots get a win-win by exercising their power and remaining in the eu.

Westminster gets a win-win-win by keeping the union, staying in the eu, and lessening the blow to leave voters and democracy

job done lads

I'm thinking this will happen.

I just hope that if it does the percentage of legitimate idiots in the leave side don't start hating Scots as well as non-Brits because "those damn kilt-wearing bastards took muh sovereignty away!"

 

[Hasney]

Thing is its likely it will be Tories vs everyone else and with newspapers swinging behind support for yes, there won't be the same barrage as before, combined with the lies about protection of our EU status, well fun times ahead.

True, if the media up there supports you more this time, there will be a helluva lot.less oxygen for those scare tactics.

Seriously? The greens are the one party that don't need to come out and say anything. You don't get more pro EU than the greens. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, but that said I'm sure they won't hold anything against me if I out them on this - a green government would 100% never take us out of Europe. In the unlikely event they are elected then they can be trusted more than the Lib Dems to ignore the referendum result.

I don't disagree, but their statements so far are about healing divided areas and while in Scotland they're looking to help keep them in the EU, they said they recognise the vote was different in England and Wales.

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/06/24/uk-votes-to-leave-green-party-response/

Basically, for my support to have the weight on the issue I want it to have, I can only really go for a party that would come out and say specifically they would keep us in Europe or in the future, take us back there.

 

[Theonik]

We didn't anyway, despite paying a higher contribution (over 6b more) than most countries that do.
We was one of the bigger contributors but our vote means nothing.
And I didn't vote leave either, but I can understand why people would.

Are you suggesting that it would be democratic to give people with more money more votes?

 

[theaface]

Hilarious. Where is this column to read?

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=208411501

 

[geordiemp]

The only deal that will make it better for the UK people is to get Europe to ignore our referendum. There is literally no exit deal that is better than what we already have.

What referendum - oh you mean that non binding opinion poll...

 

[ferrasvansen]

have sturgeon veto the result of the referendum in Scottish parliament, have Westminster go along with it, scots get a win-win by exercising their power and remaining in the eu.

Westminster gets a win-win-win by keeping the union, staying in the eu, and lessening the blow to leave voters and democracy

job done lads

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this happened would hold off indy ref for a while, give Boris a way out and limit any damage to economy.

 

[Audioboxer]

bollocks, she's cute!

Nicola Sturgeon? Ugly?

What?

I mean she isn't 'hot' but she is by no means ugly. Hell she even looks cute when she smiles.

Not my opinion just the kind of stuff I see thrown at her from angry mobs.

She does rock some classy outfits with matching heels. Girl likes flashing dem legs.

 

[kmag]

Meh needs to be higher. Sturgeon playing right game.

Scottish lib dems about to come out for indyref2 and may hold a special conference to decide to support independence

Scottish labour figures privately conceding that they'll either have to come out for or offer a free reign to members and politicians

Conceivably come indyref2 you'd only be left with the Tories as the unionist party

 

[AuthenticM]

Scotland announced a second referendum. I don't have a link; someone should make a thread.

 

[Pandy]

I'd imagine she'd want 60%-ish to be comfortable. Lose and she's done, and this time it will really be the last vote in a generation.

This is true, but also just look at all the comments about avoiding Article 50 and fighting a general election on a pro-Remain ticket, the 'Bargaining' stage is strong with the UK just now.

If we ever get to 'Acceptance', with the UK definitely out, and the EU making a firm offer of membership to Scotland if the leave, expect the figures to settle very firmly in favour of Independance

 

[jm89]

Might lead to a lot of anger against Scots.

Have Northern Ireland veto it.

And a lot of support for the scots considering the vote was very close.

 

[Xun]

have sturgeon veto the result of the referendum in Scottish parliament, have Westminster go along with it, scots get a win-win by exercising their power and remaining in the eu.

Westminster gets a win-win-win by keeping the union, staying in the eu, and lessening the blow to leave voters and democracy

job done lads

One would hope.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up though.

 

[nOoblet16]

Might lead to a lot of anger against Scots.

Have Northern Ireland veto it.

Doubt those leave voters like Scotland anyway.
And doubt Scotland cares what England in particular thinks.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

have sturgeon veto the result of the referendum in Scottish parliament, have Westminster go along with it, scots get a win-win by exercising their power and remaining in the eu.

Westminster gets a win-win-win by keeping the union, staying in the eu, and lessening the blow to leave voters and democracy

job done lads

Leave camp still accounts for 17 million people. That's a sizeable amount of people that will feel betrayed, and god knows how much more leverage that gives far right groups.
SNP also would rather be independent than be part of the EU if it had the choose, if they don't block it, they get both. So there is no reason for SNP to block it really.

 

[geordiemp]

Might lead to a lot of anger against Scots.

Have Northern Ireland veto it.

Not if there is allot of bad news first, like nobody buys TATA steel etc etc...Wont take much to induce differing opinions among the leave voters who voted for non far right reasons. £ 350 million a week would sound like allot of money to allot of voters.

Leave camp still accounts for 17 million people. That's a sizeable amount of people that will feel betrayed, and god knows how much more leverage that gives far right groups.
SNP also would rather be independent than be part of the EU if it had the choose, if they don't block it, they get both. So there is no reason for SNP to block it really.

Problem with SNP is they dont want to loose the pound, dont want the Euro, and dont have their own currency. That muds the waters.

 

[Plum]

Scotland announced a second referendum. I don't have a link; someone should make a thread.

Not seeing it on BBC, The Guardian or The Telegraph.

 

[LilJoka]

Scotland announced a second referendum. I don't have a link; someone should make a thread.

Announced it where?