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The Value of Videogame Stories

Veelk

Banned
This thread is largely inspired by the I disagree with "gameplay > story" thread. Or, to be more specific, it is inspired by it's common response that goes something along the lines of "Game stories suck, just read books/watch movies or shows". (Mods, I realize this thread may be somewhat similar in topic, but enigmatic's thread is about whether story can outweigh gameplay, while I'm talking specifically how story itself in games can be valuable. I hope this is enough of a difference to justify the separate thread). This comment is both irritating and wrong. It's not incorrect, because you should be reading books and watching movies and TV shows regardless of anything else. But the context in which it's used is meant to devalue games as narrative mediums as a whole, acting as if they are essentially worthless in that regard. And this is bullshit and I'm concerned by the number of people who don't realize it. I warn you now that this is going to be a long post, but it deserves to be, because stories are important, including ones in videogames.

So. To explain why and really delve in the worthwhileness of games as stories, we first must answer the underlying implicit question hanging in the air: What makes a good story? Simple question, but one so nebulous and broad and far reaching that there is never going to be a simple answer. I've been analyzing stories on a deep level for a very long time, and I’ve never found a perfect method of determining quality, a solid set of universal standards that every thing can be measured by. Any time I thought I did, I eventually encountered some book or show that broke the rules and yet was still wonderful somehow. So I've long since given up trying to apply some ridged set of loops that every story ought to jump through, and simply let the book or movie or game take me where I wanted to go on it's own. I judge my experience from there. And by making my personal experience with the story take center place in my judging of it, it means it's different for everyone, which is the position I think most people take anyway.

So, is what I'm saying what makes for a good story essentially subjective? Well...technically yes, but I don't really want to reduce it to something that simple. The danger of this is becoming complacent and not paying attention to the performance which you are given, instead merely being reactive to how you feel. This is something I've noticed on this forum (both gaming and OT) quite often. In any given thread asking for the quality of something, whether it is games or movies or books, the vast majority of the posts are to the effect of "X was pretty good" "X WAS AMAZING HOLY SHIT" "Man, what a waste of time x was" or something to that effect. X might be a whole experience or an actor or scene or an aspect of storytelling or whathaveyou. People just threw it under a spectrum of 'good', 'bad' and everything inbetween those two points. Some posts would often 'support' their judgements by explaining it had (insert adjective here) (insert subject here). Bad dialogue, bad pacing, good characterization, alright plot, etc. To me, this is insufficient as analysis, because there is no universal way of deciding the quality of any of that. Lets take Uncharted as an example. Suppose two people both say the dialogue is good. One likes it because it makes him laugh. It's good because it's snappy and witty and quotable. Meanwhile, The other person thinks it's only marginally funny, but is impressed with how skillfully written it is.It manages to exposit plot and setting details while building characterization to the main characters. The first person never even paid attention to how it characterized the relationship of Nathan Drake and Flynn, for example, and is immaterial to him. Both are valid interpretations of what is 'good dialogue', but the two are not in agreement with each other, so simply saying "the dialogue was good" was good is not enough. And there are several, possibly hundreds, of possible things you can focus on in any given piece of a story, each of them with dozens and dozens of possible ways to evaluate it. Narrative quality isn't a hierarchy, a simple binary spectrum of 0 and 1 has never been enough to convey the quality of even the simplest of stories. It's simply too shallow a comment to mean anything on it's own.

Furthermore, by becoming complacent to simply react to stories instead of reflecting on them, it seems there is a far likelier chance of simply not understanding and misremembering the material presented. Just yesterday I had a discussion with a friend who was trying to convince me that a character from breaking bad was a control freak, and while he used an example where the character was indeed trying to influence someone at first, but then ended the scene with peacefully accepting the other character's decision upon hearing their reasoning for that decision. He had literally just finished watching that scene too. He let the fact of his dislike of the character override and misinterpret the actual scene. This is one example, but I've seen hundreds of such lapses in memory even in shows or games or movies they literally just saw. And I don't mean forgetting minor details, I mean flat out misinterpretting things that the game either never suggested or even worked in opposition to. If you thought Last of Us was about Joel planning to raise Ellie so she can be his lover (yes, I've seriously seen people with this interpretation of the game), then I want to see the goddamn receipts. Either I missed a large part of the game, or you have. And just to be clear, this is normal for everyone. Memory is highly unreliable, so it behooves you to work to improve it. That's what reflection does. Speaking anecdotally, the more I see any given reviewer go into details explaining why he felt the way he felt rather merely describing what he felt, the more often I feel they paint an accurate representation of the game, and this is even when I don't agree with their conclusion. This isn't universal, because misinterpretation can happen even with blather-mouths such as myself, it does seem to be the tendency as far as I can tell.

So, this is my recommended method of measuring a story. Experience, reflect, express. The experience doesn't always gel with what my preconceived notions of what good storytelling is. A deus ex machina could happen in one story, and then in another and then in a third. I may acknowledge first two as flaws, but one might not be a significant detriment to a story, while the other might ruin it completely, and the third might actually not be a flaw at all but a rare proper usage of that trope. The possible reasons for the different interpretation could fill a book. It depends on the context. Obviously, not everyone will follow this method. Perhaps someone found those universal sets of rules that work for every story they ever encounter that have always eluded me. I only ask, when you make your reply, you atleast put effort into explaining why, whatever method of judging a story you may use, you view to be the right one. If nothing else, I promise it will lead to more interesting discussion than an empty back and forth of "I like this" and "No, that sucks".

Now, understanding how I interpret stories, I hope it's clear why I dislike that remark. It implicitly invalidates gaming storytelling experience. I've had plenty of gaming experiences of storytelling that matter to me, and I don't like those memories thrown under the bus like that. I don't like the implication that developers shouldn't try to make more of those experiences simply because they will never be as good as books or TV shows in certain respects. I don't like that they discourage potential players from seeking out those experiences. I don't like that most of them don't even bother explaining how or why books or movies are better, or which, or why those in particular, or why games don't even have the potential to measure up. And most of all, I just don't like the snobbery of it, carrying the implication that anyone of taste must inevitably enjoy those more. It just reminds me of the times where people scoffed at the very idea of comic books being anything more than power fantasies for children and idiot manchildren or when the same was said for fantasy books. And both those genre's crushingly destroyed those notions by proving they can be as intelligent and well written and thought provoking and intimate as any classic novel or whatever was held up to be the standard of 'real art'. Whose to say that gaming can't shatter those expectations and grow as a medium? And to my mind, it already has. It just need to do more.

Here are some analysis on game stories that I fully recommend watching. I won't summarize them fully, but I will point out atleast a few things that struck me as examples of skillful storytelling that they have pointed out. Careful, because they do contain spoilers.

This is one of my favorite analysis of Metal Gear Solid 2. Kojima utilized some narrative techniques flat out masterfully, such as misdirection, unreliable narration, symbolism, messing with the fourth wall....and he has somehow managed to gamify it! The fact that whether you play the tanker mission affects the cutscenes (and thus the interpretation of the story, even if on a minor level) is a moment of player interaction with the game that successfully incorperates a rather significant plotpoint seamlessly into the narrative. This review, in turn, helped me realize how much more smoothly Raiden plays once he gets the sword because he's no longer trying to imitate Snake. The awkward aspects of are turned from being flaws into effective methods of characterizing Raiden through gameplay. The game made character development made into a gameplay mechanic! Also, check out his MGS3 analysis, that focus' on the game's innovative use of camp.

This Last of Us analysis looks at how the game uses immersion on the deepest level possibly ever seen in gaming. It is a matter of both player interaction and characterization. All fiction struggles to make you 'believe' in a matter you know is false, and he makes a good argument for why ND managed to do that better than any other game. It accounts for how gameplay, cutscenes, scripted environmental dialogue, optional dialogue, the action set piece moments, and how even the multiplayer all come cohesively together in one unite to characterize and develop the characters (even the nameless basic enemies you play against in the single player) and reinforce it's themes. On a personal level, it even affected him so much that it changed his mind on wanting a daughter. When this was first posted, people derided that, but they shouldn't. This is the job of fiction, to offer us experiences we have not have had, or might not ever have had, and the idea that a game affected someone on such an enormous level is a testament to it's significance to that person.

My final example with missile command is comparatively short and simple. It's only 5 minutes long, compared to the other two monster length videoes. I feel this is important because MGS2 and LoU are both extremely complex games conveying rather complex stories. What about small games? Extra Credits does a lot of video game design analysis, a good chunk of it story related, and they have fully convinced me of how even simple mechanics can be used to pose complex narratives. This is minimalism at it's finest, showing how a simple tower defense game can be used to convey extremely harsh philosophical questions. Even a game with one character, as blank slate as can be while providing context, is made potentially complex through player interaction. What is narrative fiction if not merely getting into someone else's head? The characterization of the Commander the player is playing through is done by the player as he makes the gameplay decisions.

I wanted to include only games that I played and/or analyzes that I could back, but the fact is that there is a lot that's on my bucketlist that I haven't played. I'm sure there is a fantastic one for Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite (I really vaguely remember seeing some kind of video on B:I, but I can't seem to find it :/). Spec-Op's The Line has been in the backlog for simply forever, and I've heard lots of great things about that. I've only played Papers Please for a few minutes, but I can already see lots of ways in which it can be subjected to good analysis. I heard Two Brothers is pretty good. Dark Souls apparently has some impressive storytelling via the environment. And hundreds of others I'm forgetting at the moment or just not aware of. Whoever is inclined to, feel free to offer your own.

However, you might notice I'm pointing out the biggest games, the ones that everyone already knows of and are already held in high regard. You might not agree and contend with the notion for any of these (and that's perfectly okay, btw. There is contention in everything. Not everyone thinks the wire is all that good, or are impressed with Citizen Kane or think much of Lord of the Rings), but they are the ones that are the best of the best according to the general gaming public. But I don't want to send a false message, that only the best are the ones that are worth while, because that's wrong. This is also the nature of the statement that sparked this whole post. After all, if you want a story, why not go for the VERY best, right? This is logic that seems sound at first, but falls apart when you think about it deeper. As explained earlier, 'best' isn't an objective metric anyone can use, and even if it was, it isn't a monolithic quality. Any kind of story might be merely mediocre in all parts, but in one particular scene, everything works just right and brings an extremely satisfying resolution to a character. Maybe you aren't invested in the ongoing plot, but are very curious about the world in which it takes place. Maybe it has the best music you've ever heard, or the most striking visuals. Or maybe outside life is playing a role. This can mean something as broad as the culture you grew up in (tropes that are commonplace and cliche to the eastern audience can be highly creative to a western) to something personal where a typical scene of father--son reconciliation might be regarded with indifference by the majority of audience, but one person who is having similar issues of closeness with his own father might be more affected by it. And while these things can be distinguished from other aspects of the narrative, they do not exist in isolation. They are interconnected and affect the story as a whole. There is no getting away from this. But even if there was, there is the simple fact is that each experience is unique. For example, maybe, say, MGS isn't a perfect series, or even perfect games individually. But it doesn't matter because there will never be another MGS. There may be games with some similar themes or plots, but there will not be another MGS. Even if someone flat out tries to copy MGS as closely as possible except all it's 'flaws' as they see them, It might even succeed and be 'better'. But the original MGS could hold a special place in your life that has nothing to do with whether it was the best game, but the fact that it was meaningful to you in a way that nothing else can be. Sometimes, being the better story is not as important as being the 'right' story.

Besides, if only the best matters, you might as well just watch the Wire over and over again for the rest of your life. Never see another movie except Schindler's List. Never read another book besides 1984. You'd become decadent in your own wealth. The very nature of innovation is trying new paths that you aren't sure will work out. That's how the creation of everything you seen before is made. People have to stumble and fall to learn the worth of walking. There is value in even the most abject of failures. And no one lives their life subsisting only on the 'best' of something.Variety in quality is simply the nature of human experience, and even necessary to truly appreciate what the 'best' really is.

So this next section is dedicated to the imperfect gems. I want to erase any remaining doubt you may have that game's stories are not worth telling merely because they aren't perfect by pointing out the value by providing just a few examples of games that are interesting or mean something to me. Again, I hope that other posters feel inclined to add their own meaningful experiences to this list.

Bayonetta. If you've been following the gaming press about her character at all, you know there is a huge controversy about whether she is empowering or just cliche male gaze bait. And you will find almost no one disagreeing that her narrative is catastrophically told. However, I think Bayonetta is a testament to self-empowerment. The plot of Bayonetta has her guarding a child, who is eventually revealed to be herself from childhood, who thinks Bayonetta is her mother. Of all the arguments, back and forth, that debate whether Bayonetta is an empowering figure, for me this clinched it. She uses herself as a role model for herself, and she does it because she finds herself awesome. This is a fantastic and unique characterization, and I think it is why Bayonetta is hailed as a great character for many people, despite the poor effects the game's plot uses that characterization for. Also, on a more minor scale, it has some seriously deep worldbuilding that it bizarrely never uses.

Devil May Cry 3 is one of the best and most important action games of all time, but while everyone (rightfully) fell in love with the game's action, I feel many poeple don't seem to notice that it has the most competently told story in action games. GuardianE made a great post on how he's an effective rival, but he focus' on how they bounce off each other in terms of combat, the actual story is pretty well told. Dante develops from a bored drifter to someone who has awakened to justice after watching and developing a subtle friendship with Lady. Lady grows out of her simplistic view of good and evil regarding demon. And while Vergil does not develop, he's characterized very subtly. There is good use of dramatic irony of how he strives to become like his father through pursuit of power. But power wasn't what defined Sparda, but his actions to defend the humans, and when Dante awakens to justice, he becomes more like Sparda despite actually having wanted to avoid becoming like him, and gaining true power that Vergil fruitlessly sought, which makes Vergil a tragic character in a way. This isn't revelatory stuff like LoU or anything, but it is a solid basis of an anime-esque gothic action story with some measure of depth to it, in the same vein as....a good batman story, I suppose. Squandered potential, the anime and DMC4(though it did give us Uncle Dante, which is another example of the same point I am making).

Raiden from Metal Gear Rising. In case you haven't noticed, I really like action games. MGR is kind of a redemption story after what MGS4 did to Raiden, bringing his character back into fold of what went on in MGS2. However, the thing I really like about him is that he's unique as an action game character because he is possibly the most human of the big action franchise heroes. He's just the butt of many a joke throughout the game. This is interesting to me because most games, especially action games, are power fantasies that almost unwaverly praise the game characters awesomeness. Here, game characters can mock him, he can do stupid and silly things, the main boss fucking punts him like a football complete with cheers from the crowds...and that does nothing to lessen the effects of his badass moments. I personally hope other games take note of this and allow the some comedic stuff to happen to their heroes more often.

God of War. If anyone knows me, they will know I hate this series (or atleast it's character. The gameplay is mediocre to alright for the most part) and have since the release of the first game. So why is it on here? Because it's influential to me. When I was young and I first played it, I was upset that people liked it. Immature, but I was a kid. So I wanted to 'prove' how GoW was actually bad, and it was one of the stepping stones to me learning to analyze combat systems and storytelling to point out it's flaws. I might have not been making this thread (and many others) if not for my dislike of this series, and I've come to value my capacity for analysis very much. I can't think of a better personal example of how a game that failed to capture me can still affect me so much. I wouldn't be the same person I am now.

Lastly, I'll just link an analysis I did before for just one part of ME3, because this post is long enough as it is, but it's possibly the most important example, atleast to me. But Mass Effect is a DEEPLY flawed series. I was right there with everyone when they said the ending ruined the franchise. For some, this is hyperbole, but for me, it pretty much is true. I haven't played anything else ME related on principle. But the fond memories and the things I've taken away from it are never going to fade, and the linked analysis is just one example of many.


Throughout this post, I've given or pointed to examples of potential social commentary, political commentary, philosophical musings, of narrative structure and immersion, of character development both segregated from and incorporated into gameplay, immersion, personal attachment, life changing experiences, creative narrative conceptions, inventive storytelling techniques observed by myself or other people, and I've only covered a few games with a few people's opinions. There are hundreds of thousands. It is obviously, excessively evident and quite empirically wrong to devalue game stories in view of these experiences. There is too much that out there that is interesting or life changing or impeccably well done or creative to ignore. You don't have to agree with all of it and few, if any, are perfect but you can't just disregard them all. There are problems with storytelling in the medium of gaming, I'm not blind to what they are. I will agree that books and movies and TV are all mediums who have more stories and more versatility in their stories and the best of literary fiction is still umatched by anything games have offered. But never let it be said that stories aren't important to games. Meaning is the essence of story, and games have long carried that and will continue to do so. And they'll get better at it. As far as I'm concerned, we've already had atleast a few game stories so well crafted that can stand proudly as serious examples of what the medium can do. And even if they have something preventing them to reach the height of other mediums, what of it? They've done enough to make people care about a crew of aliens, they've managed to capture characterization and even character development in ways that no other medium could possibly hope to, and can engage you in worlds that can be explored beyond any novelist or movie director's dreams. And no one knows what potential lays beyond the horizon, when we'll have some great artist that does something with games that has never been done before. We have no idea how far this medium will go, only that it has the tools to go far.

So if you don't think game stories are worth while, start paying attention.
 

Cess007

Member
Personally, i do value a good story in videogames; and i don't get why the story must be at odds with the gameplay. For me, both are priorities, and for a game to hold my attention needs both.
 
Here is what I have found.

I love story more than gameplay. As a result, when I play games with good stories, I tend to ruin the gameplay (rushing through it or ignoring it as much as possible) in favor of seeing the story at the pace I want. I put Mass Effect and Dragon Age on the easiest, most casual settings and I rush through any action sections there may be (I don't give a shit about them or the RPG elements other than those which allow me more story options).

Another unintended result is that I am annoyed at games with gameplay that gets in the way of the story. If a game has a good story, I want as little gameplay as possible in-between.

After thinking about this for a long time, I recently just gave up video games with stories entirely and decided to read books and watch shows instead. The "gameplay" barrier between me and the story was becoming too annoying to put up with.

Today, if I am going to play any games, it will be ones without a story attached.

Some of the best games that try to merge both: Uncharted and Mass Effect, still suffer from annoying gameplay padding. I often wonder if I would still love games like Silent Hill 2 or 999 if they were simply stories and not games. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think I would enjoy the stories more if the annoying gameplay would not be designed to slow my progress - like the long shooting sections of Uncharted and Mass Effect.

Visual novels are probably the closest I can come to playing a video game with a story and still enjoy myself.
 

Mesoian

Member
Having just finished Remember Me, that is a prime example of a game with an interesting story, that you really want to get to the core of and understand the underpinnings of the world they're building.

But man is that game not fun to play. I feel like there are entire studios who do good work when it comes to using visual and story beats to have the player become fully emerged in that world, but when it comes to making a game that's fun to play, they fall on their face consistently. Ninja Theory is one of those studios; there's so much good stuff in Enslaved and DmC, but almost none of it has to do with playing the actual game.

I have finished terrible JRPGs because I wanted to know where the story was going. I am willing to buy into the worldspace developers create, and I expect sufficient payoff.
 

bomblord1

Banned
I skimmed OP but I will do my best to read all of it later if this is already addressed in your post I apologize.

I don't believe any sane person (I'm sure there are plenty on gaf that are not sane) believes that game stories are entirely worthless but are trying to say that the point of a game shouldn't be to tell a story but instead be to engage the player.

Even when games go above and beyond and have amazing stories that push the game forward and are completely unforgettable we still see the story being used as tool used to actively engage the player in gameplay as opposed to passive engagement like in books or video. I'm playing the game to learn about the story and the story makes me become more deeply immersed in play. Games are inherently interactive experiences and when it comes down to it the focus has to be on how the player is interacting with the game not on telling a story.

Games actually give us wonderful and amazing new ways to tell a stories on a more deep and profound ways then are possible in other mediums and story telling should definitely be explored in games but in the end if all the game does is tell a story (aka a visual novel with no choices or interaction from the player in any meaningful capacity) then it's worthless as a game and would have better been served in another medium such as video or books.

TLDR
Gameplay > Story BECAUSE even good stories are tools that are used to engage players and give them motivation to continue playing so in a way stories are just part of gameplay.

Notes
I don't think visual novels "fail" as a games as long as they incorporate meaningful player choice. Nor do I think overly cinematic games are bad as long as it engages the player with it's cinematography.

I purposely used the term engage instead of "have fun" because there are games who aren't really "fun" but still engage the player in a way that they enjoy
 
Sorry man but in my 30+ years of gaming, the stories are generally easily forgettable.

Massive generalization while being incredibly vague. First post gets it wrong.

In my 15+ years of gaming. I'll never forget stuff like Final Fantasy VI, VII and IX, Chrono Trigger, Ace Attorney, all of the Metal Gear Solid Games, Xenogears, Xenoblade, Zelda for how simple it's plots are tells them very well. yeah stuff like Bayonetta tends to forgo story in favor of stylistic game play and massive setpieces but sacrificing story in favor of giving the audience a thrill is not a trend exclusive to video games (see almost every Hollywood blockbuster). So what I'm trying to say is that not all video game story are terrible and if you put enough effort into them and yes, they should be valued. It's like of someone said "who cares about the story in animation, I just want to see the pretty pictures move, go read a book you pretentious sack of shit" (actually happened to me one time).
 

Steel

Banned
Nice post. I have to say I generally agree with all of it. I also get the feeling that a majority of the posters in this thread won't read the whole thing.
 
I admire the passion people have for some gaming stories, but no matter how many analysis videos I watch, I just don't get it. TLoU has one of the best narratives I've played, but even then my praises for it are bsolely primarily on the amazing characters considering the actual plot doesn't do anything that interesting until
Joel gets hurt at the end of Fall
. And even then it's not some masterful example of storytelling. If that's the best gaming has to offer me in terms of stories then I'm gonna stick to playing games for the gameplay.
 

jtb

Banned
to truly create an interactive narrative, choice and consequence is required. and that's impossibly difficult and very time consuming and, worst of all, most gamers (certainly the media doesn't give a shit) don't even give a shit. it's an uphill battle.
 

Ophelion

Member
I admire the passion people have for some gaming stories, but no matter how many analysis videos I watch, I just don't get it. TLoU has one of the best narratives I've played, but even then my praises for it are bsolely primarily on the amazing characters considering the actual plot doesn't do anything that interesting until
Joel gets hurt at the end of Fall
. And even then it's not some masterful example of storytelling. If that's the best gaming has to offer me in terms of stories then I'm gonna stick to playing games for the gameplay.

...but characterization is part of telling a story, no? TLoU having outstanding characters is a major part of it being a magnificent story. Plot =/= Story.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Its seems the potential and underlying themes mean a lot to you OP. Which isn't a bad thing there's a reason stuff like Game Theory is so popular. For me though the story argument for me rarely is about that. I find the most fun in the interaction I have with the story more than anything. If I'm playing the walking dead I love how I can pause and think exactly what I should choose and all the implications there. Rather than just watch the events unfold. while that's the most obvious that applies to gameplay as well. It's cool being able to interact and beat the game the way I want. You can't really change how you watch a movie or read a book. But with games you have so many choices to how you experience the story. Maybe I'll play on easy so my journey is a cost. Or perhaps I'll play on hard to feel the peril this situation has in a sense. Interaction like that alone goes a long way for me, and is one of the reasons why even if there are better stories in Book and Movies like people want to say. I still end up getting more enjoyment from games at the end of the day. However when we get stuff that excels with both it makes things even better.
 

b0bbyJ03

Member
Remember when comic book movies sucked cause the story and the writing were terrible and it was not taken seriously? that is were we are at with games right now. Once everyone starts writing stories and characters like ND gaming will change drastically. Its only a matter of time before this happens IMO. that is not to say all games will do it will, shit, even movies don't, but it will def make the ones with stories that much more enjoyable.
 

zeldablue

Member
I love plenty of games. And I value gameplay the most when I play games.

But I usually end up addicted to the story and characters when I walk away. With that in mind, I usually don't consider a game masterful unless it has a take away that has something to do with it's narrative.

Minimalism/symbolism goes well with games, though. Cutscene heavy games usually leave me a bit bored.
 
I seem to have miss the other thread but it seems like it was a blood bath. I do agree with you OP. I don't understand why games can't attempt to have a good story while having great gameplay. I've seen the argument "gameplay>story" countless times. Generally, I've seen this argument from fans of companies that make games with terrible stories. That doesn't mean video games stories must be bad.

Frankly, it's insulting to say that video game writers are incapable to write good studies.
 

Draft

Member
Low value to me, but I just watched a bit of a Youtube with a guy who says The Last of Us changed his life and made him want a daughter. So I dunno people are crazy!
 

Veelk

Banned
Low value to me, but I just watched a bit of a Youtube with a guy who says The Last of Us changed his life and made him want a daughter. So I dunno people are crazy!

See, this is the kind of attitude I dislike. Why is he crazy to react that way? You hear all the time how other works of fiction have changed the lives of people. I remember someone on this board saying how Office Clips (I think it was called) gave them a whole new perspective on life, made them happier, and have otherwise been a wholesome positive influence. Why is this suddenly laughable because it comes out of a videogame, when he can give a pretty good and convincing argument for why Ellie meant so much to him?
 

Jiraiza

Member
I definitely value story a lot to the point I'd drop a game if it just ends up being some generic snorefest. I don't think narratives are all that important in multiplayer games like fighting games, shooters, or the sort but when it comes to RPGs, JRPGs in particular, I definitely want to care about the characters and the world.

Now if only the writers for the Tales series (or most JRPG writers for that matter) would stop defaulting to "save the world" scenarios and think of something new for a change, my JRPG urges would be satisfied.
 
Sorry man but in my 30+ years of gaming, the stories are generally easily forgettable.

Well, in my 30+ years of gaming I have found that some of the best video games I've owned have been completely story driven.

A few titles:

Snatcher
Phantasy Star I-IV
Metal Gear (and Solid years)
Zelda

How can you discount stories in video games?
 

Cream

Banned
See, this is the kind of attitude I dislike. Why is he crazy to react that way? You hear all the time how other works of fiction have changed the lives of people. I remember someone on this board saying how Office Clips (I think it was called) gave them a whole new perspective on life, made them happier, and have otherwise been a wholesome positive influence. Why is this suddenly laughable because it comes out of a videogame, when he can give a pretty good and convincing argument for why Ellie meant so much to him?

Game that changed my outlook on life:

The_World_Ends_With_You.jpg
 

-tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
The main thing is that games do not require story to be absolutely top of its medium. You can have a game with no story whatsoever and it can still be the best game ever made. The story is not a necessity, and it really never will be. There are good stories to be found in games. Just like other media that tells stories, and people seem to forget this, most of it is bad from a story standpoint. Movie stories, book stories etc.... most of it is bad to mediocre.
 
Low value to me, but I just watched a bit of a Youtube with a guy who says The Last of Us changed his life and made him want a daughter. So I dunno people are crazy!

That's not crazy. People open themselves up to be affected by media because they value individual reflection and growth. People aim to take things from the things they enjoy because they are a conscious consumer of media.
 

Lime

Member
The "game stories suck, dont care about them" argument is implicitly condoning a lowering of standards.

It's an ingrained disease in video game culture that excuse shitty stories and writing in video games
 

Cream

Banned
Okay. How and why?

The main character Neku is an extremely sad, selfish person who feels like other people have nothing to offer him in life. He grows a tremendous amount in the story, and it prevents a lot of very emotionally powerful messages about letting other people into your life. I mean, it's in the title, really. I used to be a pretty sad person, this game helped open me up, and it also helped me learn to appreciate fashion and music, two things I value greatly to this day.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I admit the OP is a bit tl;dr for me (sorry ^^ don't hate me please) but, I think this is relevant:

The Shandification of Fallout

A fine example of how the medium of a game very much enhanced the storytelling, rather than just having a "filler" story to prop up the gameplay.

Basically, most video game writing does suck. But when it doesn't, it makes for absolutely awesome experiences. Examples: Legacy of Kain, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Suikoden II, Final Fantasy VI, Fallout: New Vegas, The Last of Us!
 
Part of what OP said reminds me of how everyone only remembers Cloud Strife as some mopey emo loser, when the character is pretty much nothing like that (sans extended universe). When in reality he was just a smart talking asshole that displayed a wide variety of emotions.

Personally I don't care what medium a story is in. If it's good I'll take it, whether it be book, movie or game. I do feel that games often suffer from consistency issues, but then it's difficult to make a story last over ten hours long. Quite often it's the ending that lets me down with games, often going off kilter and not making sense, or rendering the rest of the story meaningless (hello ME3).
 

Veelk

Banned
The main character Neku is an extremely sad, selfish person who feels like other people have nothing to offer him in life. He grows a tremendous amount in the story, and it prevents a lot of very emotionally powerful messages about letting other people into your life. I mean, it's in the title, really. I used to be a pretty sad person, this game helped open me up, and it also helped me learn to appreciate fashion and music, two things I value greatly to this day.

Awesome. A lot of people are debating the merits of storytelling in how effective it can be, and while that's a valid topic, this is the real point I was trying to get across. A game and a story being effective as entertainment is all well and good, but the importance of stories and art comes from what we take away from it and how it helps us grow as people. That's what stories are truly worth and games can deliver that and whatever flaws it may have had fall short of the enormity of that contribution to your life. I'm glad the game helped you out like that.
 

JCX

Member
The thing for me, is that the most memorable moments in gaming are the ones I create. The time I finally got Aptheosis to work in Baten Kaitos, a last second from-behind win in Mario Kart, or finally catching Mewtwo with just a pokeball.

I don't remember the end of Legend of Mana, but I remember yelling "Paint It Black!" while trudging through the game with my brother.

What I like about games is that they allow me to write my own story. This isn't to say that I am some awesome writer who is better than a professional, just that I want to play in this digital playground, and sometimes the writer's story gets in the way of that.

Metroid Prime is my ideal storytelling experience. Well written, detailed lore that is almost fully optional to the act of playing the game. You don't have to scan the shredded bodies of dead space pirates to know that there is probably something very dangerous in the room ahead, but you can learn more detail by scanning.

This is all to say that I enjoy the meta-stories games allow much more than the scripted story, even when the story is very good.
 

ibyea

Banned
Love your post, OP. For me, Majora's Mask would be nothing without its story. And so I hate it when people throw stories under the bus, as if games aren't a sum of its parts.
 

Ophelion

Member
Way I see it, the best games are the ones with both elements intertwhined.

Absolutely! The mistake that some developers and a lot of gamers who discount the importance of story seem to make frequently is the idea that story is only what happens when you're watching a cutscene.

But a game with a really good story? The level design is telling that story, the voice acting is helping, the art direction is telling you the story, the item and character design, the gameplay systems are telling you that story. As Mr. Plinkitt would say, "You might not remember all those little things...but your brain does." And the more often you can keep the player in control of gameplay while story is happening, the better. It's part of the reason they let the player retain control in the escape at the end of TLoU as I understand it.

The only reason any medium is worth exploring stories in is because you can tell stories that would never work in other mediums.
 
Exactly. You can't have one without the other and call it a perfect game.


Tetris?

:p

But stories are only memorable when the gameplay immerses you into the narrative

I remember my experiences and stories with games like Shenmue that allow me to guide the narrative at my own pace than games that rush me from point a to point b.

When the main character's motivations line up with my own and the choices they end up making are because of something I did within the game, THAT makes the experience engaging, making the game and its story more of a moment that will stay in my memory, than another cutscene I'm forced to watch.

The Last of Us got better at doing this the farther I got into it. And by the last 2 chapters (seasons) I felt it came close to bridging the gap between player motivations and narrative.

JCX said:
The thing for me, is that the most memorable moments in gaming are the ones I create. The time I finally got Aptheosis to work in Baten Kaitos, a last second from-behind win in Mario Kart, or finally catching Mewtwo with just a pokeball.

This... when the game allows me to do something cool or memorable, you get more immersed in it, not because of the story, but because of what you DO in the game.
 
The thing for me, is that the most memorable moments in gaming are the ones I create. The time I finally got Aptheosis to work in Baten Kaitos, a last second from-behind win in Mario Kart, or finally catching Mewtwo with just a pokeball.

I don't remember the end of Legend of Mana, but I remember yelling "Paint It Black!" while trudging through the game with my brother.

What I like about games is that they allow me to write my own story. This isn't to say that I am some awesome writer who is better than a professional, just that I want to play in this digital playground, and sometimes the writer's story gets in the way of that.

Metroid Prime is my ideal storytelling experience. Well written, detailed lore that is almost fully optional to the act of playing the game. You don't have to scan the shredded bodies of dead space pirates to know that there is probably something very dangerous in the room ahead, but you can learn more detail by scanning.

This is all to say that I enjoy the meta-stories games allow much more than the scripted story, even when the story is very good.

This. I remember getting that perfect, life saving grenade bounce into an enemy's face in Quake 2 far more than any pre-written story. And while I enjoyed stuff like Torment, Lunar, and Final Fantasy Tactics for their narrative value when I was younger, lately I find myself increasingly put off by the narrative bits in games. I want to jump in and get my hands dirty, play the game and create my own story.
 

eot

Banned
Well, in my 30+ years of gaming I have found that some of the best video games I've owned have been completely story driven.

A few titles:

Snatcher
Phantasy Star I-IV
Metal Gear (and Solid years)
Zelda

How can you discount stories in video games?

Zelda is story driven?

Everyone need to play Kotor II.

I love KotOR II, it's probably on my top5 games of all time list. However, I still agree with lethial. If I want a good story I'll go to anther medium.
 

Fishious

Member
Even after reading through all of that I'm not sure I have a grasp on everything. You covered a lot of topics and it's a lot to take in.

I agree that it's really disappointing reading in the other thread and threads like it that so many people discount gaming as a storytelling medium. Obviously there are people who won't care about the stories, regardless of how well written they are, because all they want from the game is the gameplay and there's nothing really wrong with that. Another issue is that some of the most popular games tend to have stories on the level of B movies so a lot of people's only experience is with those sorts of stories. I just wish people wouldn't discount the whole medium because of it.

As you said, there's no magic set of criteria that can ultimately be used to judge if a work is truly good or bad. That's a fools errand. It why we have to rely on critical analysis and descriptive terms instead of "Game's sooooo good" or "Shit's sooooo bad". My favorite posters on GAF are the ones who take the time to write out why they feel the way they do about a game, movie, book, or slice of toast.

to truly create an interactive narrative, choice and consequence is required. and that's impossibly difficult and very time consuming and, worst of all, most gamers (certainly the media doesn't give a shit) don't even give a shit. it's an uphill battle.

I'm quoting you because this looks like a good jumping off point. I think the ability to allow for choice is one of the strengths of the medium and a good counterpoint to people who say, "If they want to tell a story, write a book instead." Interactivity in general really. Even if a story is linear or minimal, if it allows the player to absorb it at their own pace or not at all (eg Souls series) it can create a sense of accomplishment for the player as they must go out of their way to piece together the narrative. That being said, I don't really begrudge people who aren't really interested in game stories so long as they don't flat out dismiss the entire medium's potential.


Aaand now to read the rest of the thread. I probably should have posted this when I started writing it over half an hour ago rather than waiting.
 
A good game doesn't need story.

However a good game with a good story can be a masterpiece. The hardest trick is to combine story with gameplay properly and not just shoehorn it in.
 
I read books, watch movies/shows, and yet Videogames have had the most lasting effect on me when it comes to narrative, being a part of the experience is such a powerful tool.

Some games like the whole Mother series, Metal Gear Solid 2/3, Nier, 999, Majora's Mask, and The Stanley Parable show how great videogames as a medium can be to tell a story in a different way than other mediums can.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
Some of the Zelda games wouldn't be nearly as memorable without the story. And one of them, Majora's Mask, can't separate the story as it is a major part of its identity.

Yup. Majora's Mask is fantastic in this regard due to the interwoven themes throughout, the focus on the characters around you and the impact you can have on them(which subsequently gets reversed as you travel back in time). Since it's coming out on the 3DS soon I'm curious to see how newcomers take the game.

And as mentioned briefly in the OP, Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons was neat in this regard as well. Note that if you didn't play the game these are full blown spoilers about the ending.
The gameplay mechanics themselves tie each half of a controller as the brother, and the story progression slowly gets more and more disturbed while starting as a more fantasy-esque world. Later you're in a war ground where dead giants are laying around and must be maniupulated through gameplay, rivers of blood, and it caps off at the end with your older brother losing focus of their ultimate goal a bit, getting trapped and killed. The impact of this story moment is one thing by itself, but it evolves into something much more due to how engrained the controls are in your head at that point. Suddenly, you only use one stick and one button as half of your controller died with him. It was a very effective way to showcase loss through gameplay and even still comes into play in more ways afterwards. The two brothers had different quirks--older one focusing more on being strong and lifting, while the little one could get into smaller spots and manipulate levels for the older brother to get by. But the younger one was always afraid of swimming(due to what happened to his mother), and at the end when he's all alone and needs to swim, he summons the strength of his older brother to get through...which means you're using the older brother controls once more.
A great moment that only works as effectively as it does because of the videogame medium.

While this ties in somewhat with the other thread, gameplay IS important, but there are very clever ways to integrate this within storytelling as videogames have a unique potential in that specific medium. You have real interaction and potential impact on the outcomes of what happens, assuming the game itself realizes this potential.
 
Good OP. I'll chime in with my piece and say why I partly disagree.

I think that good stories are a dime a dozen. They're everywhere -- we've been creating them since the dawn of civilization. Ultimately, it's not about the story, it's about the telling.

As such, I place huge importance on games that have a good story, but ones that tell them in ways that leverage the medium. I think the heart of the "read a book" or "watch a movie" arguments are getting at this concept. If you want to read or watch a good story told well in a traditional way, games aren't going to do it better than books or movies. They're mediums crafted explicitly for that purpose.

This is why I disagree so much with holding up The Last of Us as an ultimate example of storytelling in games. The act of play is incongruous to the story being told in too many ways -- ultimately, if you were to just watch the cutscenes, you would completely understand the story being told. The player isn't necessary -- and their input does little to add to the experience. The best part of the game is the opening, where the player's actions are neatly connected with the experience and enhance it -- as a young girl, exploring the house in fear, stuck in the backseat in fear, looking around at destruction. However, all too often the game takes the traditional route and hands these kinds of moments over to the cinematics, a tacit acknowledgement that movies do it better.

The most powerful moments in game storytelling are those that leverage the medium.
I'm going to drop a big red SPOILER WARNING here -- I am going to spoil the critical moments of the following games:

Games about to be spoiled: Shadow of the Colossus, The Walking Dead Season 1, 999

Shadow of the Colossus:
The way the mechanics are wrapped into this game is sublime. Think about the main mechanic in this game: holding on. Throughout the game you hold on to massive beasts, rock faces, your horse, and so on. As you fell the giant creatures, your ability to hold on increases. Ultimately, what the character wants more than anything is to keep holding on, to hold on forever, to something (someone) that is lost. At the end of the game, you start to get locked away, with a constant rush of wind blowing you into a hole. Your ability to hold on once again comes into play. It's ultimately futile -- there's no way to hold on forever, there's no way to beat the force of the wind. But I'll be damned if I didn't hold on to the last anyway. The game lets you do this, to determine when you give in, or if you hold on til the bitter end. It gives you the whole time to think about it as you do. And it's one of the most powerful moments ever in a game because of it, and it says it in a way that couldn't be done in any other medium.

The Walking Dead S1:
There's a moment in the final episode where you finally catch up to the guy who's kidnapped Clem and has been holding her hostage. At one point you finally get the leverage on this guy, and you start choking him, using the same button prompts as the game normally gives. At one point the prompt disappears, and you can let go -- and maybe you even realize you can -- but you don't have to. You can choke the life out of that guy, judging him for his sins, committing your own, making your judgment. Your feelings become a key part of the story. The entire series has a lot of storytelling problems, but this key moment is a gem, and again, couldn't be done in another medium.

999: I really don't want to spoil this for you, so if you are reading this and haven't played it, PLEASE go play it on DS. On DS is important. Here's why (and don't read if you haven't played it!):
The hardware becomes part of the story itself. With the two screens, you are unknowingly treated to two perspectives on the story, and in the key final moments, you finally realize what those perspectives are. It plays on the history of visual novels and your expectations. In the end, you're actually forced to turn things around -- not only metaphorically, but physically -- and it casts the entire events of the game in a new light. It's a mind-blowing moment that makes you party to it, and -- this is redundant, but I think it's making my point -- couldn't be done in another medium.

----- END SPOILERS -----


So in short, I agree that game stories are important. But the stories we tell with them are unique, and we should not only accept that but embrace that. Constant mimicry of other mediums, placing them on a pedestal as the ideal of what to achieve, only serves to hamstring the medium's development.
 

Skelter

Banned
Zelda is story driven?



I love KotOR II, it's probably on my top5 games of all time list. However, I still agree with lethial. If I want a good story I'll go to anther medium.

Games, like anything else, will eventually get better in terms of writing. Movies were lauded at first as well. Same thing will happen with games in time. I think there are games out now that have some great writing and I'm not talking about Last of Us or any other popular action game. There are some games with great writing like Kotor 2 or Planescape: Torment. Then there are games like 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors that can tell a story in a way no other medium can without severe tweaking.

I also don't understand the bolded. Going to another medium doesn't automatically mean you'll find something with good writing or a great story. Movies and books, just like games, can have bad writing just the same. I don't a game like Halo and expect great writing but I also don't watch a movie like Transformer and expect an amazing story. Hell I would say the Witcher series is pretty damn good in this department. It feels like Game of Thrones even though it's not. The way CDPR's writers used Geralt's perspective on things in Act 2 gave us a different reactions to things like Saskia being the dragon, Iorveth's goal, and the assassinations by the witches. We see the characters in a different light and this is one of the strengths of games. Writers can use the mediums advantage to tell a story in a unique way.
 

TM94

Member
KOTOR II's writing is mind-blowing.

Kreia as a character is so deep and complex it's staggering.


Video game stories stick with me if they're great, just like movies or books.

You remember the great ones, forget the lesser ones just like any other medium.

I play more games than I do watch movies or read books so more video game stories stick with me as a result.
 

nick_b

Member
Games are a complex medium. They are the sum of multiple parts, e.g. the art, the music, the story, the gameplay... Each part contributes to the whole 100%. To have a simple example say we have a game that is 50% story and 50% gameplay. We could also have games that are 25%-75% as well as 0%-100% and vice versa. The percentage that each part has of the whole doesn't have an effect on whether a game is good vs bad or liked vs disliked. Each facet needs to do its part to successfully fulfill its role. Widely celebrated games typically have a majority of good parts vs bad parts. Good or bad is subjective to the individual as final indicators but there are vast generalizations that can be made. Say we have a game with fun and involving gameplay, a well thought out and impactful story and beautiful creative art. All these would likely lead to the majority of reviews being positive. Now say the music in the game was in one case a great original score that resonates well with the other parts. The reviews should stay good, right? Now replace this score with droning white noise. This would lead to lower reviews and in some cases might be bad enough to bring down the scores on the other parts of the game if they drew the players attention away from them. What I am getting at is that not all games operate on the same scale of emphasis being given to story over gameplay or gameplay over story etc. Games can have good stories but unlike a book, in which the story is probably its sole reason to exist, games have multitudes of parts that all need to be good or at least decent to be considered a "good" game.

tldr; Games can have good stories but there are more things than just the story games to consider. All parts of a game need to be well done in order for the game to receive the praise of the majority.

This post is mostly me rambling and typing down thoughts as I think of them so hopefully some sense can be drawn from it.
 

jtb

Banned
love seeing all the KOTOR 2 love. it's a game where the end of each act is a beautifully done conversation (Atris, the Jedi Council, Kreia). A phenomenal balance between the cinematic ideals (seriously, that Jedi Council conversation is packed with wonderful, nuanced cinematography decisions) that some games follow and the choice/consequence branching dialogue trees of WRPGs and the like. those two competing philosophies find a very strong, compelling middle ground there.

I would easily argue it's one of the best, if not the best, example of stories and video games working together seamlessly and beautifully.

--

also: for me, the dialogue issue is one of the biggest obstacles to games as storytelling: after all, the primary action in games is 99% of the time violence. well, in books and film, the primary action is 99% speech/dialogue/conversation/interaction with other human beings/etc. because that's the way it is in life. and stories, for the most part, should bear some reflection on the way we live, right? so I really do think that dialogue and being able to write quality, interactive dialogue trees with meaningful consequences is a big factor in how far games are willing to go in telling stories
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
Great post, OP! Bookmarked for future reference.

Though I do feel people focus a lot on "traditional" stories like you could find in a book/movie while games can tell more unique stories like the one in Journey, which basically has no "content." By which I mean you can't summarise the game's story because the story is your personal experience with it; any retelling of Journey is bound to whatever each player felt and projected into the barebone piecemeal tidbits of hints at a story.

This is why I disagree so much with holding up The Last of Us as an ultimate example of storytelling in games. The act of play is incongruous to the story being told in too many ways -- ultimately, if you were to just watch the cutscenes, you would completely understand the story being told. The player isn't necessary -- and their input does little to add to the experience. The best part of the game is the opening, where the player's actions are neatly connected with the experience and enhance it -- as a young girl, exploring the house in fear, stuck in the backseat in fear, looking around at destruction. However, all too often the game takes the traditional route and hands these kinds of moments over to the cinematics, a tacit acknowledgement that movies do it better.

This is an argument I keep seeing and I could never really agree with it. To me, TLOU did interesting stuff regarding the typical protagonist-centered morale we adopt when playing/identifying with a character. By the end of the game Joel turns out to be a pretty selfish, hyper-violent and incredibly deceptive person few people would want to identify with. None of this is apparent in the early game, where Joel's actions can generally be seen as "good." After all, even "unlawful" actions such as disregarding the harsh rule of the military are done in an effort to potentially save humanity, even if that means brutally butchering most of your opponents. You kind of feel justified in smashing an attacker's head in because you're doing it to save a little girl. However, towards the end Joel's clearly negative and to some extent even psychopathic nature becomes more apparent both through traditional narrative like the cutscenes but also through the gameplay -- mainly by having you switch characters. Controlling Elly in the winter chapter is extremely important as you're literally forced to view Joel from someone else's perspective. Even more so, in that chapter a band of survivors you previously encountered in battle return to remind Elly (you, the player) of the clearly negative effects Joel has had on the life of others in his psychopathic rage trip through the U.S. This also applies to the ending itself, where we as the player very clearly know what actually happened in the hospital and why Joel is lying to Elly. It's the moment where you're completely disconnected from Joel as a character. Compare that to the opening you mentioned where you fully identify with Joel and his pain.

Obviously, switching a character is not huge in terms of narrative and surely you can reach similar conclusions about Joel through cutscenes alone, but nevertheless I found it an interesting aspect of TLOU storytelling that, to me, improved the overall game. There are similar things I could go deeper into, but I feel this post is already kinda long-ish considering this isn't a TLOU thread.
 
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