heh i wish. no problem with that.
but in reality some reviewers justified their own incompetency by blaming the controls and frenetic visuals.
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The Wonderful 101 |OT| Diplomacy has failed
- Thread starter ShockingAlberto
- Start date
heh i wish. no problem with that.
but in reality some reviewers justified their own incompetency by blaming the controls and frenetic visuals.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Personally I kind of think the discontent over the reviews comes from the fact that, while the average is still fairly high, the reviews that paint the game as a failed experiment with deep fundamental flaws originate from a few high profile suspects: IGN, Edge, Game Reactor, etc. I suppose it's simply feeling of frustration at the prospect a wide swath of people will run into those reviews first and treat them as word of God. Especially with how people often put Edge on a pedestal (the magazine that won't tell you who reviewed a game).
Plus I think it being those publications don't do any favors to the stereotype (however deserved or not) that the most mainstream game reviewers are increasingly adverse to demanding games that don't adhere to a certain mold.
There is also a level of stress present over The Wonderful 101 IMO because of the Wii U's poor fortunes. The need for killer apps is great. It is unavoidable that there there's going to be strong emotions when one of those titles finally arrives and is seen as being treated unfairly by some major voices in gaming press.
Plus I think it being those publications don't do any favors to the stereotype (however deserved or not) that the most mainstream game reviewers are increasingly adverse to demanding games that don't adhere to a certain mold.
There is also a level of stress present over The Wonderful 101 IMO because of the Wii U's poor fortunes. The need for killer apps is great. It is unavoidable that there there's going to be strong emotions when one of those titles finally arrives and is seen as being treated unfairly by some major voices in gaming press.
You had to pick up a huge blue sphere and bring it there to open it. Did you do that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsAUelgQl5E&t=23m30s
I sadly agree with this. Last time I witnessed such a disconnect between my god tier experience with a game and reviews/sales was with PES Playmaker. Too different + deep learning curve + Nintendo exclusive seems to be a fatal combo.
Neff
Member
In theory, if it gets better reviews, then it sells more and makes more money for Nintendo, in turn bolstering their faith in PG and blessing the Wii U with a more public purchase incentive. There are lots of hopes at play here.
But that doesn't really reflect how Nintendo does business. Activision needs quick, impressive hits. EA needs quick, impressive hits. Industry-naive shareholders like them a lot.
Nintendo on the other hand is a very astute, future-thinking company. They want quick bucks like anyone else, but they're also happy planting seeds that will pay off in the long run. And considering the incredible word of mouth that W101 is getting and will continue to get, it's going to be recommended to a lot of future Wii U owners and will sell slowly but surely over a long period of time.
Higher scores would be nice, but W101 is already fulfilling the purpose Nintendo commissioned it for- to be an amazing game that Wii U players love for a long time. Placating the demands of reviewers for a better Metacritic average might have seen a better opening week, but it would ultimately have been the wrong decision for Nintendo/PG to make.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think you're overestimating the impact that reviews have on sales.
VJ and Okami both reviewed really well. but they both also still failed to meet expectations set by Capcom.
and I feel that this game has more incommon with those than Bayo and DMC. It's a game with an idea that's really hard to communicate through promotional material. Which if you look at Platinum's past releases, seems to be the most important thing when it comes to sales of their games.
It having a higher metacritic or IGN score wouldn't change that. It might convince a few more people to buy the game, but it wouldn't change that a good amount of those users would still have the same problems and be turned off any future games in the franchise or by the studio.
VJ and Okami both reviewed really well. but they both also still failed to meet expectations set by Capcom.
and I feel that this game has more incommon with those than Bayo and DMC. It's a game with an idea that's really hard to communicate through promotional material. Which if you look at Platinum's past releases, seems to be the most important thing when it comes to sales of their games.
It having a higher metacritic or IGN score wouldn't change that. It might convince a few more people to buy the game, but it wouldn't change that a good amount of those users would still have the same problems and be turned off any future games in the franchise or by the studio.
Didn't know what to do with that sphere, now I do. THANKS!
ShockingAlberto
Member
The one criticism that definitely makes no sense to me is that the controls are bad, when they're definitely not. I have never not made the shape I wanted to make.
"meh" reviews of game X from the biggest outlets -> influences sales -> influences future work of developer who made game X.
opinion makers/people making a living making their opinion public have a "negative" opinion about a "good" thing is influencing those relying on these opinions.
personally, I care because I hate how much everyone else cares since I actually do not care. if that makes sense to you lol.
again, I'm not crying in a corner because TW101 should've gotten higher scores, it's a general complaint about the philosophy behind everything surrounding reviews.
nailed it again!
So what combo do you guys usually go for?
Me: Fist uppercut + Whirlwind + Fist uppercut + Whirlwind + Sword Whirlwind + Gun Stinger + Sword Whirlwind + Tombstone.
Gets me a Platinum combo every time, but I still feel like I'm not using my other powers enough. Any tips for cool Hammer / Whip / Claw use during combos?
I usually spam Multi Unite Morph (following a Bomb) when the enemy can't be juggled (giant enemy crabs©, turtles, weak points on huge bosses, etc.), but I keep my juggles fairly linear, maybe throw in a whip or sword or fist if I screw up the Whirlwind and do a Stinger instead, moving too far from the enemy to continue the juggle. I can't cancel quickly enough to stop a Stinger in the middle of a juggle.
Me: Fist uppercut + Whirlwind + Fist uppercut + Whirlwind + Sword Whirlwind + Gun Stinger + Sword Whirlwind + Tombstone.
Gets me a Platinum combo every time, but I still feel like I'm not using my other powers enough. Any tips for cool Hammer / Whip / Claw use during combos?
I usually spam Multi Unite Morph (following a Bomb) when the enemy can't be juggled (giant enemy crabs©, turtles, weak points on huge bosses, etc.), but I keep my juggles fairly linear, maybe throw in a whip or sword or fist if I screw up the Whirlwind and do a Stinger instead, moving too far from the enemy to continue the juggle. I can't cancel quickly enough to stop a Stinger in the middle of a juggle.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
When I played the demo it took me about 4 runs + Saur's video to grasp the proper flow of combat in the game. Playing with the right stick for drawing is fine IMO. But I do have to wonder... if some who reviewed it actually waddled around with one Unite weapon at a time slowly whacking enemies and bosses to death because they hadn't figured out juggles, combos, the lock-on dash, etc.
Benzychenz
Member
This post makes me feel like I suck ._.
When I try to do a really fast combo like that I always up up doing a stinger instead of a whirlwind or drawing the wrong shape for something.
Try executing the L stick + A combinations slower. I found that I couldn't consistently do the stinger/cyclone attacks because I was trying to do the left-right/rotation movements too quickly and was also hitting A too quickly after that. If you try performing the stick gestures in a more controlled way, and then hitting A a little after that, you'll be more consistent.
Also remember that you can perform stingers and cyclones immediately with a new morph by doing the L stick gesture before using A to confirm the drawing.
Just finished it. That finale was hysterical. Not very good gameplay-wise but the over-the-top-ness was so ridiculous that I genuinely laughed at one sequence (
).
.
The bonuses are awesome, particularly the HD models and concept art. It shows how talented Platinum artists are and the gigantic work that went into the design of everything, how several type of whips and hammers were designed when most players will only use Pink's and Yellow's by default.
When you have to mash the A button to save Earth and you see the characters do the same thing on screen
The prologue with Luka is also very cool
The bonuses are awesome, particularly the HD models and concept art. It shows how talented Platinum artists are and the gigantic work that went into the design of everything, how several type of whips and hammers were designed when most players will only use Pink's and Yellow's by default.
Basically, take your time. You make measured button presses even while juggling.
ShockingAlberto
Member
To add on to what EC said earlier, yes, this is probably the least accessible Platinum Games title ever.
Or, to put it a less abrasive way, this game definitely allows the player to make their own mistakes and does nothing to correct them. Not everyone is going to realize that, if you're getting bronzes in Damage and taking longer than a minute to kill an enemy, you need to rethink your approach. For most players, if they get through it, that's enough. If they have a very difficult time getting through it and don't know why, they don't want to rethink their approach, they get frustrated and angry.
One good example of how the game lets you make mistakes is right at the beginning when you're given just enough money to buy the block and the dodge, two incredibly fundamental moves that will make the game a lot less frustrating but still rely on your skill to use. You could also buy items. You totally can buy items. You shouldn't, but you can.
A lot of the complaints I see about the game (
) could be solved if the player just thought about how they were approaching or perceiving the situation.
A lot of it comes down to the fact that people consider a lack of explanation to be bad game design. Which is fair, for most people, a lack of explanation absolutely is bad game design. For some people it's not. I think The Wonderful 101 reviews that felt that way are perfectly valid, but most players probably know how they feel about that kind of design by now, I think.
Or, to put it a less abrasive way, this game definitely allows the player to make their own mistakes and does nothing to correct them. Not everyone is going to realize that, if you're getting bronzes in Damage and taking longer than a minute to kill an enemy, you need to rethink your approach. For most players, if they get through it, that's enough. If they have a very difficult time getting through it and don't know why, they don't want to rethink their approach, they get frustrated and angry.
One good example of how the game lets you make mistakes is right at the beginning when you're given just enough money to buy the block and the dodge, two incredibly fundamental moves that will make the game a lot less frustrating but still rely on your skill to use. You could also buy items. You totally can buy items. You shouldn't, but you can.
A lot of the complaints I see about the game (
Like the Vorkken fight, where everyone says it's complete chaos and you can't tell what's going on because there's 200 people on screen, because there isn't a big sign saying "Only pay attention to the unite morphs, nothing else really matters"
A lot of it comes down to the fact that people consider a lack of explanation to be bad game design. Which is fair, for most people, a lack of explanation absolutely is bad game design. For some people it's not. I think The Wonderful 101 reviews that felt that way are perfectly valid, but most players probably know how they feel about that kind of design by now, I think.
Benzychenz
Member
Yep, I was talking to someone that was having massive problems with the game. I asked what in particular and he said the tanks. When I told him they're one of the easier enemies and you just need to block their shots he had no idea what I was talking about.
Explaining these things is something Platinum really needs to work on.
Some stuff is ok to let players discover on their own, core mechanics are not.
AcademicSaucer
Member
This is the first game im getting after i buy my wii u after e3 next year
So the controller complaints stem from the combination of the game's learning curve of the combat system (like Vanquish and Bayonetta also have) and poor implementation of tutorials rather than the control scheme and drawing mechanism's responsiveness on the touchscreen) being actually broken ?
Is it safe to say that Wonderful 101 kind of has similar reasonable complaints as Monster Hunter ?
Is it safe to say that Wonderful 101 kind of has similar reasonable complaints as Monster Hunter ?
Fimbulvetr
Member
Rewatched the Bayonetta 2 E3 playthrough.
Between that and The Wonderful 101, goddamn. Goddamn.
Know any Bayonetta 2 demo playthroughs with good recordings and players who aren't incompetent?
I like this view.
For me personally, if I see a "damage taken" rating in any game I'll consequently spend the rest of the game trying to figure out better ways to play against each enemy encounter. One thing I noticed about the levels in W101 is that in of most Operation A's they introduce a couple of new enemies, and the last two or three missions in that Operation will be remedial test against them.
It might... there's a lot of try, try again, and you have to spend time understanding the game's internal logic and lexicon. Like, if I spoil a third level enemy,
the turtles will scare most players because they can constantly get hit from anywhere on screen. So it will take many steps of learning for them to figure out they can block the fire attacks with Unite Hand, that they can block the stomp attacks with Unite Guts, that they can flip it over for extra damage or to grab it's tail, etc. The game does introduce you to the enemy almost immediately after gaining Unite Hammer, so you'll know that that's the strongest morph against them. But even with just the basic Unite Hammer you'd never be able to tip them over unless you thought to use a Wonder Stinger or Rising instead of another Hammer smash that will slam them back onto their feet.
An enemy analogy to Monster Hunter would be understanding the intricacies of fighting Qurupeco.
But part of the joy in both games is becoming one with the game's system and figuring things out yourself. And if it's still too much you can go online for tips and tricks. It doesn't help that both games take a more measured approach to the usual frantic hack and slash; no matter how much craziness is on screen you always need to keep your cool and time your attacks.
It's a bit of both. If you start the game with the idea you have to use the touchscreen to draw shapes, you're off to a bad start. Doing a bridge is almost impossible to pull off successfully 100% of the time with the touch screen (The tutorial actually indicates to use the RS for this). There's also the claws and hand-glider. You have to make a Z and triangle shape to invoke them but here it's more efficient to use the touch screen instead of the RS. So you have to know what input method works best for each power.
I think the bridge thing at the beginning is a clever way of teaching you that the right stick is better for certain things in a very low-risk scenario with basically no fail state.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'm sure there's better out there, especially commentary free, but the IGN Live feed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw1LaOP6de0) is good. It's direct feed, and demo'd by a Nintendo rep, so the person playing actually knows what they're doing. On the downside there's talking over the entire thing.
Fucking hell, just finished it. Spectacular end boss, ending to the story and credits. Now that I've played all the way through this is going in my best games of all-time list at number 2, 2nd only to Elite. Has just nudged Football Manager (the original, not the one we see these days) into third place.
I don't think I'm going to play a game as good as this in a long time, this has to get a few honourable mentions at a few GOTY awards or there's absolutely no justice in the world.
I don't think I'm going to play a game as good as this in a long time, this has to get a few honourable mentions at a few GOTY awards or there's absolutely no justice in the world.
Neff
Member
Yeah, people are dismissing W101's quest for recognition, citing examples of other PG/Platinum classics that never got the exposure they deserved, but the game is too good for it to remain in obscurity.
While on the subject, it's worth noting that successes of new IPs can change very quickly. I don't for a minute think W101 is going to recreate the same mega-180 effect, but when N64 Goldeneye 007 was released, its initial sales were nothing at all to shout about. It had no advertising. Believe it or not, it even had its share of poor reviews. It was entirely consumer word of mouth that turned GE007's fortunes around and made the game one of Nintendo's greatest successes.
While on the subject, it's worth noting that successes of new IPs can change very quickly. I don't for a minute think W101 is going to recreate the same mega-180 effect, but when N64 Goldeneye 007 was released, its initial sales were nothing at all to shout about. It had no advertising. Believe it or not, it even had its share of poor reviews. It was entirely consumer word of mouth that turned GE007's fortunes around and made the game one of Nintendo's greatest successes.
MANvsGAME just started W101 on twitch; should be entertaining.
http://www.twitch.tv/manvsgame
http://www.twitch.tv/manvsgame
Thank you, this is great!
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Working against The Wonderful 101 is (and will be into the foreseeable future) the Wii U's embarrassingly tragic hardware penetration and the even worse software attachment ratios. Market penetration doesn't guaranty success (see: Clover), but the game as is couldn't be in a worse position. Not even the people who own Wii Us are buying games, and that's so sad when they're sitting on a gem like this.
Most realistic best case scenario: games like Super Mario 3D World, Donkey Kong, and Mario Kart 8, supplemented with games like X and Smash, help drive not just hardware momentum, but software momentum, encouraging owners to look at the library a bit more. The cynic in me is convinced the Wii U sales catastrophe will not turn around in any truly surprising way, simply gain momentum in the right areas, but hopefully that momentum causes some people to look across at the box of The Wonderful 101 while picking up whatever other Wii U game and think "oh hey, that looks cool, I should give it a try".
Ah! 003-A beginning is a good spot for ukemi training.
I'm happy with the result for the second boss on hard, silver medal, didn't get hit too much, outside of the whip that didn't catch the plane on the second time, I don't know why, I was thinking you just had to materialize it and I was shooting with green mini game during that same boss fight, hitting the boss but in the end he still fired that beam.
I'm happy with the result for the second boss on hard, silver medal, didn't get hit too much, outside of the whip that didn't catch the plane on the second time, I don't know why, I was thinking you just had to materialize it and I was shooting with green mini game during that same boss fight, hitting the boss but in the end he still fired that beam.
I can't form a definitive opinion on this game even after spending 22 hours with it.
It's good, sometimes great, but I'm never consistently awesome when I play it. There's too many annoyances, one of the biggest being the enemy patterns. It's just too difficult to read. You never know when an attack is blockable or not. Your unit morphs being breakable is also very frustrating, you have to pick up back all your team-mates to do anything at all. Bayonetta didn't have those problems. The fights were like graceful ballet, here it's often pure chaos. Drawing multiple shapes, while cool at first, becomes the equivalent of button-mashing. Seeing Turtles on the first stage in Hard mode, makes me want to stop playing. It's a slight disappointment as I was expecting Bayonetta's level of near perfection. If I had to rate it, I'll still give it a 7/10.
It's good, sometimes great, but I'm never consistently awesome when I play it. There's too many annoyances, one of the biggest being the enemy patterns. It's just too difficult to read. You never know when an attack is blockable or not. Your unit morphs being breakable is also very frustrating, you have to pick up back all your team-mates to do anything at all. Bayonetta didn't have those problems. The fights were like graceful ballet, here it's often pure chaos. Drawing multiple shapes, while cool at first, becomes the equivalent of button-mashing. Seeing Turtles on the first stage in Hard mode, makes me want to stop playing. It's a slight disappointment as I was expecting Bayonetta's level of near perfection. If I had to rate it, I'll still give it a 7/10.
Linkstrikesback
Member
That would require stores to have wonderful 101 in stock and taking up valuable display space. I can't imagine that it will be for very much longer (if it even still is).
Neff
Member
Wii U's rep is in the toilet, there's no getting round it. And you're absolutely right, it's those games you mention, plus future big releases, that W101 is going to have to rely on to get anywhere at all.
The European W101 Miiverse board is almost three times the size of the Japanese one, so we can at least judge Japan's release as being as bad as it's ever going to get. The US board will no doubt be much larger still.
But sadly, it's very small potatoes for the time being.
Some things can be blocked, some things can't. But their properties won't ever change. You can learn them, and the animations/sounds that telegraph their imminence.
It's absolutely a game of experimentation and learning. You just haven't learned enough of it. I'm on my 3rd playthrough and I'm still learning, and getting better.
I think I really have a problem with the second attempt at those quick one unit morph to counter a boss attack. I was fighting a giant crab in a kakhoo regah and if not for the second claw qte not workin, would have been a nice and comforting pure platinum!
So the first time I saw wonder white face on the screen, I drew claw, it automatically began the qte, and the second time, like the second whip during the previous boss fight, it didn't work, I even hit A but nothing happened if not a big crab claw punch in my face...
So the first time I saw wonder white face on the screen, I drew claw, it automatically began the qte, and the second time, like the second whip during the previous boss fight, it didn't work, I even hit A but nothing happened if not a big crab claw punch in my face...
eShop! amazon!
For instance, the head attack of the turtles is instantaneous in my experience.
I mean, it's also bad design, since you encounter the turtles just after acquiring the hammer, you might think you have to use it, but no, the best way is actually to jelly block the stomp and turn them on their back. I never use the hammer, it's too slow, not that powerful and too slow to draw. Same with the claws, I barely use them, except to open the dragons and similar mechanics.
It's paradoxal because in-game you don't have time to experiment new tactics against enemies. It's too hectic. The few times you try something new, you get your ass kicked, it's even worse. Since there's too many powers, I'm not going to try all of them on all enemy types, that's just not fun.
Wait, THAT'S what you're supposed to do when that happens? Does the game ever tell you that? What triggers it?
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Do you really like these kind of games?
Because what you're describing isn't unique to 101 at all. Fully exploring your options is mostly trial and error in every action game.
Neff
Member
That head attack is a bastard, yes, but bad design? The hammer is an excellent weapon to use against them if you don't want to wait for an opening to use Guts (just draw/Unite a really huge hammer, get behind them, dodge any stomps/mines and let them have it), and the game goes to great pains to point that out on several occasions. The Claw is a really good item to have on the
shmup
That said, I find W101 no more or less unfair or obtuse than Bayonetta, which you apparently got on fine with.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
I still do not know how to make the whip work in the qte attack of boss 002-C, the one where wonder pink faces appears. I make the whip buf every time I hit A it doesnt work, i only got it right surprisingly the first time i fought the boss but it seems i cant remember how to make it work, is automatically, do you have to press a?
The turtle head attack isn't instantaneous. It's really fast, but you have about as much time to dodge it as you do for the tank cannon attack. And it's a lot more predictable. If you're ever standing in front of a turtle it'll prioritize using that attack if you can.
And I disagree about the Hammer. You can jelly a turtle stomp, have enough time to create a large hammer, the creation of the hammer will flip the turtle over, and then you can very easily just smash the turtles' underside. Alternatively you can circle around the turtle and use a Multi-Unite Hammer to attack the turtle while it stays locked on to your leader. You don't have to be the one swinging for every attack.
Similar are the tank dudes, who you think you have to use jelly all the time to block, but you can use Unite Bazooka or Hammer to break their shields making it easy to Climb Attack and juggle them.
Lastly, like Retro said, there's no way to experiment against an enemy without facing it. If you want to give up quickly on experimentation, fine.
Edit: And besides, isn't Wonder Black pretty much designed to give you more time to do things?
The first time I'm sure drawing the weapon is enough, the second...
Well for me it stomp them and they get back to their initial position, unless you mean literally the creation of the hammer made them flip.
Viewtiful Joe and Bayonetta are some of my favorite games. The enemies attacks are better telegraphed in those. For instance, I have no problems with the tanks and small captains in W101, their attacks are clear.